Form of government

[j2k4]

It's funny how you have both bought into the word as a negative. It makes me picture you guys running to the store every time a commercial comes on television. The highest standards of living in the world (for the masses, not the elite-the elite do VERY nicely here.) ARE socialist countries.

Have either of you truly risen among the social classes in your lifetime? I managed to work myself from (literally nothing) to lower middle-class before my body gave out. I'm 39. I take morphine twice a day for pain, and still can't afford health insurance!

I ask you both, how you can ethically, or intellectually, favor a system (US branded capitalism) that keeps 40% of the population in/below poverty?

You are exhibiting so comprehensive a mis-understanding of circumstances as to defy description.

Here is a fact:

Everything you hate about Capitalism equates to a sub-set of this country's self-appointed elites, the ones who move among and between the highest echelons of both American political parties.

These are, for lack of a more refined descriptive, the type of people who we talk about when we refer to "Golden Parachutes", on the one hand, and, let us say, George Soros on the other.

The kind of people who, when a conservative says "Free Market", want you to hear "Status Quo".

Does that help?

[megabyteme]

Forget the top 1%. Forget the top 30%. They have so much more than you could possibly earn in 20 lifetimes that they aren't even worth discussing. We'll just say that they like the system we they've got.

It's the bottom 40%- 120 MILLION people who have nothing, won't have anything, and if they (as a group) do better, the system rises to ensure they stay at the bottom.


Then there's the differing levels of middle-class. Almost all of us are defined by holding the vast majority of our "wealth" in our homes. That said, most of us just lost the majority of our "wealth" in this recent government-approved/protected land grab.

Now tell me that capitalism lets someone "rise up". AND what are we rising up in? The hope that we can someday be exempt from getting fucked.

[sandman_1]

Since this thread is taking a different direction from what I intended, I guess I will chime in on this.

Although I don't endorse Socialism, I am aware that the rich, the 1% of the population that hold most of the wealth, run this country and basically "own" it. Don't believe me? Look at the bail-out. At first Congress says no, then all of sudden from some secret meetings at the last moment, things change. Then they blame all the foreclosures for why it happened. Yes that was part of the reason but it goes deeper than that. Ever heard of OTC Derivatives? Most people probably haven't. Frontline on PBS had a very informative program, http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...tm_source=grid, on these Derivatives that I suggest that everyone should watch. Not a Michael Moore fan but his last documentary, was pretty much spot on, Capitalism a Love Story. Good ole greed got us into this situation and it is good ole greed that will ensure that it continues. Like a economic expert said when asked by Frontline what the next bubble will be, "Take your pick, there are bubbles everywhere."

The American dream? Yea I use to believe that lie. There is no American Dream. I know plenty of hard working folks that work their butts off and never see any benefit from their labor. The American Dream is something the rich spoon feed you so you stay good citizens. There are nearly 250 millionaires in Congress right now. If they aren't a millionaire when they go in, they more than likely will be by the time they leave. Do you feel represented yet? What is laughable to me, is that there are so many people that believe the hype of left vs right, liberal vs conservative, Democrat vs Republican. The truth is, they do that on purpose so you are focused on petty arguments and not on how poor of a job they do representing you. The original point of this thread was to start a conversation of this corruption but I guess it flew over peoples heads I suppose. Something as simple as Republic vs Democracy I guess isn't being taught in school anymore or people are too complacent to even care. Anyway that is my two cents worth...

[bigboab]

Since this thread is taking a different direction from what I intended, I guess I will chime in on this.

Although I don't endorse Socialism, I am aware that the rich, the 1% of the population that hold most of the wealth, run this country and basically "own" it. Don't believe me? Look at the bail-out. At first Congress says no, then all of sudden from some secret meetings at the last moment, things change. Then they blame all the foreclosures for why it happened. Yes that was part of the reason but it goes deeper than that. Ever heard of OTC Derivatives? Most people probably haven't. Frontline on PBS had a very informative program, http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...tm_source=grid, on these Derivatives that I suggest that everyone should watch. Not a Michael Moore fan but his last documentary, was pretty much spot on, Capitalism a Love Story. Good ole greed got us into this situation and it is good ole greed that will ensure that it continues. Like a economic expert said when asked by Frontline what the next bubble will be, "Take your pick, there are bubbles everywhere."

The American dream? Yea I use to believe that lie. There is no American Dream. I know plenty of hard working folks that work their butts off and never see any benefit from their labor. The American Dream is something the rich spoon feed you so you stay good citizens. There are nearly 250 millionaires in Congress right now. If they aren't a millionaire when they go in, they more than likely will be by the time they leave. Do you feel represented yet? What is laughable to me, is that there are so many people that believe the hype of left vs right, liberal vs conservative, Democrat vs Republican. The truth is, they do that on purpose so you are focused on petty arguments and not on how poor of a job they do representing you. The original point of this thread was to start a conversation of this corruption but I guess it flew over peoples heads I suppose. Something as simple as Republic vs Democracy I guess isn't being taught in school anymore or people are too complacent to even care. Anyway that is my two cents worth...

I agree with most of this post. We could add a lot of things that are surreptitiously done to keep the working man just that:-

Divide and conquer: Covered above, also we are brainwashed from day one to treat our neighbouring towns as rivals. Different religions as enemies.They are afraid that if all the Joe Soaps become friends their future would be down the tube.

Gambling: The rich speculate(gamble). If they win they keep the winnings. If they lose Joe Soap pays them back what they have lost+.(Banking rings bell?)

Lets Keep Prices Low For Our Customers: By the likes of Walmart screwing the farmers etc. into the ground to keep prices 'low' and share prices high. Also (screwing) putting all the small businesses out off business. Moving the hypermarkets out off town so they don't have to pay rates to the locals. Creating tax havens to avoid paying tax to the country.

Hypermarkets: Is that not a form of communism for the rich?

Where do we stop?

P.s. I'm havering, of course. I'll go back to bed.

[j2k4]

. Almost all of us are defined by holding the vast majority of our "wealth" in our homes. That said, most of us just lost the majority of our "wealth" in this recent government-approved/protected land grab.

I have a better idea.

Why don't you elucidate further on this ^ statement, then tell us which party(s) executed that last bit.

You may finish by telling us very precisely and exactly who you should be fearing; don't be afraid to look beyond political ideology.

[999969999]

It's funny how you have both bought into the word as a negative. It makes me picture you guys running to the store every time a commercial comes on television. The highest standards of living in the world (for the masses, not the elite-the elite do VERY nicely here.) ARE socialist countries.

Have either of you truly risen among the social classes in your lifetime? I managed to work myself from (literally nothing) to lower middle-class before my body gave out. I'm 39. I take morphine twice a day for pain, and still can't afford health insurance!

I ask you both, how you can ethically, or intellectually, favor a system (US branded capitalism) that keeps 40% of the population in/below poverty?

I dispute the validity of your claim that anyone (including socialist countries) has a higher standard of living than the United States. I've been on vacations with my family to various European countries and while they are nice to visit, I am always glad to be back in the United States after the vacation is over.

My life has just begun, so no, I haven't "risen among the social classes" yet. My family is what you would probably consider to be rich, so there is not a lot of rising to do. I probably won't have the same experiences as you have had. But I still think that the United States offers the greatest opportunity for upward mobility of any nation on the planet. Most of it is just from hard work, wise investing, clever strategies, risk taking, and yes, a little bit of luck. When my ancestors moved here from Austria in the 1800's they were poor as dirt, but look at us now!

Your situation may be a case of bad luck. But, I believe the majority of that 40% you claim is poor are quite simply lazy or unwilling to take the risks necessary to reap the rewards of the capitalist system. If my ancestors had played it safe and just stayed in Austria, I would probably be a poor kid in Austria right now. It was a risky but profitable adventure for them to come here from Austria.

Socialism is negative because it seeks to strip away wealth from people like me and give it to poor lazy people who should get off their asses and go to work.

[bigboab]

It's funny how you have both bought into the word as a negative. It makes me picture you guys running to the store every time a commercial comes on television. The highest standards of living in the world (for the masses, not the elite-the elite do VERY nicely here.) ARE socialist countries.

Have either of you truly risen among the social classes in your lifetime? I managed to work myself from (literally nothing) to lower middle-class before my body gave out. I'm 39. I take morphine twice a day for pain, and still can't afford health insurance!



I ask you both, how you can ethically, or intellectually, favor a system (US branded capitalism) that keeps 40% of the population in/below poverty?

I dispute the validity of your claim that anyone (including socialist countries) has a higher standard of living than the United States. I've been on vacations with my family to various European countries and while they are nice to visit, I am always glad to be back in the United States after the vacation is over.

My life has just begun, so no, I haven't "risen among the social classes" yet. My family is what you would probably consider to be rich, so there is not a lot of rising to do. I probably won't have the same experiences as you have had. But I still think that the United States offers the greatest opportunity for upward mobility of any nation on the planet. Most of it is just from hard work, wise investing, clever strategies, risk taking, and yes, a little bit of luck. When my ancestors moved here from Austria in the 1800's they were poor as dirt, but look at us now!

Your situation may be a case of bad luck. But, I believe the majority of that 40% you claim is poor are quite simply lazy or unwilling to take the risks necessary to reap the rewards of the capitalist system. If my ancestors had played it safe and just stayed in Austria, I would probably be a poor kid in Austria right now. It was a risky but profitable adventure for them to come here from Austria.

Socialism is negative because it seeks to strip away wealth from people like me and give it to poor lazy people who should get off their asses and go to work.

How many of those idle lazy people are conveniently out of work in order to keep wages low? Let everyone start from square one and see how many 'people like me' have jobs. A lot of business people struggle all their lives and never get to be 'people like you' because they are honest and overtaxed. They don't secret their actual wealth away in tax havens.

If I had my way, you're lucky I don't! nobody would inherit any more than a years average wages. The land would belong to the country and not to someone who was good with a bow and arrow 700 years ago(U.K), a gun 200 years ago(U.S.A.). Just remember that the native Americans were community living peoples. That is communism to you. 'People like you' took their land off them. I don't see you condemn the idle rich. Did you visit the French Riviera on your travels. Did you see the squander and waste while a few hundred miles across the the water kids are dying every day for the want of a few cents that would keep them nourished. Your kind make me sick.

[999969999]

I dispute the validity of your claim that anyone (including socialist countries) has a higher standard of living than the United States. I've been on vacations with my family to various European countries and while they are nice to visit, I am always glad to be back in the United States after the vacation is over.

My life has just begun, so no, I haven't "risen among the social classes" yet. My family is what you would probably consider to be rich, so there is not a lot of rising to do. I probably won't have the same experiences as you have had. But I still think that the United States offers the greatest opportunity for upward mobility of any nation on the planet. Most of it is just from hard work, wise investing, clever strategies, risk taking, and yes, a little bit of luck. When my ancestors moved here from Austria in the 1800's they were poor as dirt, but look at us now!

Your situation may be a case of bad luck. But, I believe the majority of that 40% you claim is poor are quite simply lazy or unwilling to take the risks necessary to reap the rewards of the capitalist system. If my ancestors had played it safe and just stayed in Austria, I would probably be a poor kid in Austria right now. It was a risky but profitable adventure for them to come here from Austria.

Socialism is negative because it seeks to strip away wealth from people like me and give it to poor lazy people who should get off their asses and go to work.

How many of those idle lazy people are conveniently out of work in order to keep wages low? Let everyone start from square one and see how many 'people like me' have jobs. A lot of business people struggle all their lives and never get to be 'people like you' because they are honest and overtaxed. They don't secret their actual wealth away in tax havens.

If I had my way, you're lucky I don't! nobody would inherit any more than a years average wages. The land would belong to the country and not to someone who was good with a bow and arrow 700 years ago(U.K), a gun 200 years ago(U.S.A.). Just remember that the native Americans were community living peoples. That is communism to you. 'People like you' took their land off them. I don't see you condemn the idle rich. Did you visit the French Riviera on your travels. Did you see the squander and waste while a few hundred miles across the the water kids are dying every day for the want of a few cents that would keep them nourished. Your kind make me sick.

Man, this kind of logic is dangerous and pervasive. Much like affirmative action which seeks to punish people like me because I was born into an Austrian family (which I had no control over), you think I should be punished because I was born into a wealthy family (also which I had no control over). But the latter is a result of a lot of hard work by my ancestors. If they can not pass down their wealth to their children and grandchildren, etc., then what is their incentive for hard work and building a fortune over generations? Why shouldn't they just sit on their asses, too, and wait for the government to give them everything?

And yes, I have been to the French Riviera, and it was fun. Maybe I should be stoned to death for that?

"Just remember that the native Americans were community living peoples. That is communism to you."

Good point. The Native Americans had this land for a lot longer than we had it, but they did almost nothing with it. That is the problem with communism. It just doesn't work.

Capitalism is what built this country and made it a great place to live. Abandon it at your own peril.

[megabyteme]

. Almost all of us are defined by holding the vast majority of our "wealth" in our homes. That said, most of us just lost the majority of our "wealth" in this recent government-approved/protected land grab.

I have a better idea.

Why don't you elucidate further on this ^ statement, then tell us which party(s) executed that last bit.

You may finish by telling us very precisely and exactly who you should be fearing; don't be afraid to look beyond political ideology.

The topic of this thread is "forms of government". I stood up in favor of socialism due to its ability to meet the needs of the masses. You are the one who wants to look dem/rep on this one. The massively rich (which wouldn't have control in a socialist gov.) are the ones who were "too big to fail" here. Nice system.

But, I believe the majority of that 40% you claim is poor are quite simply lazy or unwilling to take the risks necessary to reap the rewards of the capitalist system. If my ancestors had played it safe and just stayed in Austria, I would probably be a poor kid in Austria right now. It was a risky but profitable adventure for them to come here from Austria.

Socialism is negative because it seeks to strip away wealth from people like me and give it to poor lazy people who should get off their asses and go to work.

Calling the bottom 40% lazy is an entirely ignorant statement. I've done the 3 jobs (70+ hours/week) thing. That doesn't solve ALL of one's problems, either...

How does one take risks when they cannot afford to eat healthy/nutritious food, don't own a home, are behind on their rent, have more debt (because of unmet basic needs) than they can pay back, etc.

I don't begrudge your luck, but your ignorance pains me. If you have nothing to invest, it won't grow.

[bigboab]

Good point. The Native Americans had this land for a lot longer than we had it, but they did almost nothing with it. That is the problem with communism. It just doesn't work.

It worked for hundreds of years before your ancestors and people of that ilk arrived and took their lands, shot most of them and put the survivors in concentration camps reservations.

Capitalism is what built this country and made it a great place to live. Abandon it at your own peril.

No slavery is what made your country 'great'.