Us To Fingerprint & Photograph All Visa Travellers

[leftism]

Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Since the comment bears nothing on my ultimate conclusion, how is it "desperate", tactics boy?[/b]

&#39;Boy&#39;? Such maturity is a wonder to behold

Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Any earnest discussion begins with addressing the issue (Homeland security- necessary or not?) [/b]

Sorry I thought that was painfully obvious. Yes it&#39;s necessary. Happy now?

Btw your not applying these rigorous standards to yourself. Or did I miss the bit in your 1st post where you stated that Homeland security was necessary?

Originally posted by hobbes

It then progresses to your opinion on how it is being implemented including the factors which formed that opinion (experience, research, etc) and an alternative solution, if possible. Sometimes you cannot offer an alternative, this is fair, but you should make this admission.

If it&#39;s fair not to offer an alternative then why bring it up as a criticism of my post? Has anyone else offered an alternative? Have you demanded that everyone make this admission that they dont have an alternative solution? I suggest you start applying these &#39;rules&#39; to everyone. A little consistency in your &#39;principles&#39; might lead me to believe your post was more than a poorly disguised flame. Although the 1st sentence was a bit of a give away.

Originally posted by hobbes
Why would any honest person not follow this simple etiquette, always?

I&#39;m not sure, you may want to ask everyone that same question. I suggest you start by interrogating yourself. Perhaps your the one being dishonest with this "how to write a perfect post" method that only applies to one individual?

Originally posted by hobbes
I understand that the US has concerns about homeland security. I think that fingerprinting will be an ineffective screening tool for x,y,z, and may, in fact, drive a wedge in international relationships by placing the criminal stigmata of fingerprinting on upstanding foreign citizens.

I cant believe you&#39;ve dedicated a sizeable portion of your post to criticising me for omitting that 1st sentence&#33;

At least the US attempted to start simply and they didn&#39;t expel all foreign nationals living in the US on Visas. These people are not tourists, and they don&#39;t come from the 27 countries that have Visa exemptions, they are resource leeches, who want to learn a skill and take it back home. We clearly don&#39;t need them or their money. They pose nothing but a security risk.

If you genuinely believe that then you should kick everyone out. Do you recall Richard Reid the British &#39;shoe bomber&#39;? A Visa does not mean you aren&#39;t a security risk.

Your resource leech comment is also pretty odd. Let&#39;s say 2 people are studying and paying for the same university course in the US. One has a Visa and the other is exempt. Why is one a resource leech while the other is not?

In a nutshell.. why not kick them all out? Surely the damage to the economy is worth it? As you said yourself...

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@
Only American citizens have the rights of freedom our people have.

The rest are here as visitors and we would like to know who you are. To make things simple, we could just close our doors period. You are not needed here for any reason. 9/11 would never have happened at all.

By letting the foreigners in, all we do is expose ourselves to risk without any possible benefit.
[/quote]

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
If Tom Ridge thinks that he can point back at this as the pinnacle of anti-terrorism and seek absolution of all guilt if terrorists strike again, he is seriously deluded.[/quote]

Never underestimate the politicians comtempt for the electorate, they really do think your that stupid . Remember the terrorists passport that survived the raging inferno of 9/11 and fell to the sidewalk virtually untouched? If they expect you guys to swallow that they&#39;ll expect you to swallow anything

Let me expand on my &#39;bottom line&#39;. The only way the USA will be anyway near secure is if all foreign nationals are expelled and the borders closed to everyone except returning Americans. Then you&#39;ll just need to worry about American born terrorists.

I&#39;m not sure whether this should be done, the damage to the economy would have to be calculated (Can you put a price on stopping a 2nd 9/11?) But its definitely the only way the US will achieve it&#39;s goal of security. Unless this happens you should really be thinking about a terrorist attack in terms of &#39;when&#39; not &#39;if&#39;.

[J'Pol]

1234

As has been said many times, the answer is simple don&#39;t visit America.

No one is forcing you to, so if you don&#39;t like America and don&#39;t want to go there, then you are perfectly entitled not to. Then the whole picture and fingerprint thing becomes a non-issue.

No matter how long your diatribe, the US authorities have every right to take whatever steps they wish to defend their country. What other people chose to do is a matter for them.

With regard to the "Anglo Saxon" insults, please feel free, they will say more about you than they do about me.

I would be interested If you could show me what part of my statement diminished the suffering of millions worldwide. Or where I did anything other than react to the comments of others.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by 1234@8 January 2004 - 22:45
The issue was whether the world changed on that 9/11. It didn&#39;t. The attacks on NY etc were just another terrorist attack like many others in the world, some sponsored by the US. Are you even aware of the first 9/11? The one in 1973. That was what I (and the poster he was replying to) were referring to.

The issue of "beefing up security" is fine, but don&#39;t whine (like the US is doing right now) when people do the same to you (Brasil). At least the Brasilians are not asking for bank account details. Would you be happy to pass your bank details to a foreign country you don&#39;t trust?

Btw US citizens are not affected at all by the measures the US is introducing so no clue what you are on about there. Only foreign visitors have personal/biometric data taken.

J&#39;Pol, you may not be American but you are guilty of the same empty phrases as all US policy supporters. The only change in the world after 9/11 was that the US cowboy started rampaging round the world in person rather than by proxy as it usually does.

The word "asswipe" is general net slang and a mild insult that is acceptable on PG friendly boards. I can call you some rather more old fashioned Anglo Saxon words if you want, but I was trying to fit into board policies on the use of profanities. Your attempted jibe falls flat I&#39;m afraid

What was uninformed and insensitve was your assertion that somehow the NY/Washington attacks were unique and world shattering. The only unique thing, as was pointed out, was that fully fueled aircraft were used. In your statement you diminished the suffering of millions worldwide who suffer terrorism daily (a lot of it backed by US govt dollars) and have done for a loooong time.

Therefore I stick to my statement - you are a hypocritical (insert your insult of choice here)

I&#39;m sorry 6789 I do not have the restraint of J&#39;Pol.

Read carefully dipshit. Are your eyes peeled?

First off, the only one whining is you. If Brazil wanted to stick probes up foreigners asses for stool samples we Americans would just say, "Oh well, can&#39;t go to Brazil".

Maybe you would be the first in line though.
You&#39;re like the disgruntled kid who can&#39;t go outside with his friends.
If you want to come here, get your damn picture taken; it won&#39;t steal your soul.
If you don&#39;t want your picture taken, stay the fuck home.
If you don&#39;t want to come here then you are blowing a tremendous amount of smoke and there is concise need for you to STFU.

Second off, please step outside of your third world mind for a moment.
The NY/Washington attacks were very unique AND world shattering to US and that is why WE are taking security measures that benefit US.
So while you want bring up all the sufferings of millions worldwide, that has very little to do with the thought process behind OUR government trying to take care of the USA.

If you lived in NY you wouldn&#39;t have said (after 9-11), "but what about the car bombing in Israel"
It was the worst terrorist act committed here. Do you understand?

We here are not used to the terrorism that you might have grown up training for.

Maybe your post would have made more sense if you called the American government hypocrites.



Then again if we sponsored all this terrorism is it wrong to protect ourselves against it?

[1234]

Not visiting is fine with me, that is not really the point of my post.

My point is that terrorism on that scale is not new, and is often US financed. The hypocrisy of the US position and it&#39;s "war on terror" is what I am referring to. The issue of US border controls are really of utmost indifference to me. Oh and for the record, I have been to the US before.

Those attacks on the US were long overdue really. If you have the foreign policies that the US has had for decades, eventually it will bite you. On 9/11 (I wonder if the hijackers knew the significance of that date) it bit back. It is people like you and others here that let the US off the hook for it&#39;s terrorist record and defend it&#39;s ludicrous "war on terror".

That is where you dismiss the suffering of millions. So I feel comparing you to whats left on a piece of toilet paper is quite apt. Not quite as apt as applying it our next poster though, I grant you that.

If Brazil wanted to stick probes up foreigners asses for stool samples we Americans would just say, "Oh well, can&#39;t go to Brazil".

The US State Dept has demanded that Brasil stop it&#39;s actions against US citizens. Doesn&#39;t seem like "oh well" to me.

Maybe you would be the first in line though.

Hoho, gay jibe. I am, once more, crushed.

If you want to come here, get your damn picture taken; it won&#39;t steal your soul.
If you don&#39;t want your picture taken, stay the fuck home.

Yep, those are the options. I have no problem with choosing to go or not.

If you don&#39;t want to come here then you are blowing a tremendous amount of smoke and there is concise need for you to STFU.

Nope, I am dealing with the background issues and the US&#39;s endless agression.

Second off, please step outside of your third world mind for a moment.

Third world mind? Can we add racism to your CV then? Are only US citizens allowed to have views on world events?

The NY/Washington attacks were very unique AND world shattering to US and that is why WE are taking security measures that benefit US.

Only unique in the fact that you were the victims not the perpretators. It is one of those coincidences of history that 9/11 is the anniversary of the US led coup in Chile that killed .... yep over 3000 people. The last 2 centuries are full of US mass murders in countries you can&#39;t even find on a map. Ever heard of the SOA? US&#39;s own terrorist training camp responsible for some of the worst dictators in recent history. It is still open while Bush waffles on about a war on terrorism. Heres a clue, start looking in your own damn country.

So while you want bring up all the sufferings of millions worldwide, that has very little to do with the thought process behind OUR government trying to take care of the USA.

As just shown, the suffering of millions worldwide is directly due to US govt policies both before and after 9/11. You reap what you sow. Or rather, those poor sods in the WTC reaped it while the people responsible sat in bunkers in the middle of Nevada or wherever.

If you lived in NY you wouldn&#39;t have said (after 9-11), "but what about the car bombing in Israel"
It was the worst terrorist act committed here. Do you understand?

I live in the UK, we have had US financed terrorist attacks here for decades. Members of your damn govt publically helped finance those attacks. Are you going to arrest those sponsors of terrorism? Anyway, like I said, the US is responsible for much worse atrocities than 9/11.

We here are not used to the terrorism that you might have grown up training for.

You really have no clue do you. The US is the worlds largest exporter of terrorism, and has been for decades. Want me to pull out some choice Kissinger quote

Maybe your post would have made more sense if you called the American government hypocrites.

I do, and anyone who supports them.

Then again if we sponsored all this terrorism is it wrong to protect ourselves against it?

Sure, since even the terrorists that are attacking you were created by your own country. You must have been proud seeing the WTC go down, thinking - "damn thats some efficent terrorists we have created".

EDIT: Damn dodgy tags

[hobbes]

Originally posted by leftism@8 January 2004 - 23:36
Let me expand on my &#39;bottom line&#39;. The only way the USA will be anyway near secure is if all foreign nationals are expelled and the borders closed to everyone except returning Americans. Then you&#39;ll just need to worry about American born terrorists.

Lefty, I meant to say "Billy", not "boy".

People here know whether I am honest or a shit-stirrer. Your credentials are less well known

I&#39;m sure your interest in our forum is earnest and I just wanted to give you a few pointers on how to engage in a discussion and avoid a name calling rant. Probably just a neophtye mistake on your part.

I explained the "leech" comment to my satisfaction, in a couple posts actually, you can PM me if this is really a point of confusion.

To many on this board, "fingerprinting" is an over-reaction to 9/11, what would they think of your bottom line?

A bit harsh, no? I would say that 95+% of those people on Visas are here to do what they say they are.

Do you really think we should do that? That would be a touch xenophobic.

I think we should have spent all of our time and effort since 1980 or so investing in alternative sources of energy to make our country self sufficient in this regard. But I firmly believe that government corruption, lead by the oil cronies, undermined these efforts. So now we interfere in politics across the seas and dethrone uncooperative leaders so that we can secure a pipeline of oil. Had all these resources been funneled into becoming energy self-sufficient, I think many problems could have been avoided.

[leftism]

Originally posted by 1234
Or rather, those poor sods in the WTC reaped it while the people responsible sat in bunkers in the middle of Nevada or wherever.

Very true

[lynx]

Without a doubt, the US has a right to implement whatever measures it thinks right to defend itself within its own borders.

But I think it (the administration, not the people) has not thought through the implications of its actions. As has been stated earlier, the measures taken will do virtually nothing to reduce the impact of terrorism. So if we consider the reasons for their implementation the only conclusion is that they are to reassure the population.

But if you look at the effect on public opinion outside the US, the result (again) seems to be negative. And the more negative effects you get the more you get disgruntled people, which in turn leads to more people saying "I&#39;ve had enough". The end result is less co-operation and will inevitably result in the US being in more danger of terrorist attacks.

No other country has publicly introduced this sort of recording before, although I suspect that the Soviet Union may have done it covertly. We all know what happens to repressive regimes in the long run.

INFO for those currently in the visa waiver areas. This scheme runs out in October this year, unless you have a biometric passport (which in any case holds the info they are taking from visa required entrants).

The UK, which is one of the most advanced in this area cannot produce them before the middle of 2005. Most other countries will be unable to produce such passports before 2006. Can you really see a family of 4 queueing at the US embassy for hours, paying £60 each, plus travelling costs, just to go for a couple of weeks in Florida? In any case, the US embassy could not possibly cope with the demand, even if only 10% decided it was worth it.

I suggest it is time to think about the real implications of this ludicrous piece of legislation.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by 1234@9 January 2004 - 02:03
Sure, since even the terrorists that are attacking you were created by your own country. You must have been proud seeing the WTC go down, thinking - "damn thats some efficent terrorists we have created".

The thread is about "fingerprints and a picture" and not US foreign policy. Make your own thread or join one of the delightful ones already available in this forum.

The only real difference betweeen US foreign policy and that of other countries is that we have the means to execute some of what we desire. Every other country would do the same to ensure the prosperity of their nation.

The big burr worldwide is that the "average American joe", thinks that we are "good guys" and is honestly bewildered why everyone is so mad at us. Most of the things that the US government does worldwide are unknown to the average citizen, most don&#39;t even know where Chile is.

Americans are just like everyone else, as long as the government provides for the people. We go to work, complain about our bosses and watch the old television. If this luxury were to collapse, we would become a lot more world savvy, by necessity, just like those abroad already are.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by lynx@9 January 2004 - 02:21
I suggest it is time to think about the real implications of this ludicrous piece of legislation.

A post from beyond the grave?

[vidcc]

Originally posted by lynx@9 January 2004 - 01:21

The UK, which is one of the most advanced in this area cannot produce them before the middle of 2005. Most other countries will be unable to produce such passports before 2006. Can you really see a family of 4 queueing at the US embassy for hours, paying £60 each, plus travelling costs, just to go for a couple of weeks in Florida? In any case, the US embassy could not possibly cope with the demand, even if only 10% decided it was worth it.

I suggest it is time to think about the real implications of this ludicrous piece of legislation.

has the US embassy re-opened to the public again ? as i thought they were all cordoned off after 9/11....i know in london the only way to get a visa was by post.
regardless you make a very valid point on the deterent of people holidaying in the states.

that said if some of the posts here are true none of those visitors would bring any benefit to us and we don&#39;t need you. ( not my view )
finally disneyland paris will have someone on the rides..just like they always wanted