Why Dont Muslims Emigrate To America

[3RA1N1AC]

Originally posted by hobbes@15 May 2004 - 08:32
Brainiac- Nice job making fun of achondroplastic dwarfs.

making fun? i was celebrating our enlightenment, damn it.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by 3RA1N1AC+16 May 2004 - 03:03--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (3RA1N1AC &#064; 16 May 2004 - 03:03)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@15 May 2004 - 08:32
Brainiac- Nice job making fun of achondroplastic dwarfs.

making fun? i was celebrating our enlightenment, damn it.[/b][/quote]
You should more focus on the enlightenment that women are humans, equal to men, not property and are not to be locked away and less on dancing dwarves and Ronald McDonald (Don&#39;t even get me started on Carrot-Top ).

During the CNN special on Iraq a prominent Shia cleric interviewed stated clearly that men and women are not equal and that is not his opinion, but the word of God.

He and his tens of thousands of followers lead the very life that captncrunch thinks is passe. It&#39;s right there before my eyes, as I type this. Thousands spending an hour a day, listening to readings from the Koran, crowded into a doorless and windowless Mosque in near freezing temperatures. Their religion is their life, religion controls their government, quite the contrast to the Western philosophy.

This is why they do not flock to the West, culture shock.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by hobbes@16 May 2004 - 02:25
You should more focus on the enlightenment that women are humans, equal to men, not property and are not to be locked away and less on dancing dwarves and Ronald McDonald (Don&#39;t even get me started on Carrot-Top ).

Much as i agree with this, its also an example of you stating our beliefs.. our "enlightenment".

Its not just the ME where women are 2nd class, indeed its probably the majority of the world population.

So saying that, its not upto us to force our beliefs on others,

Educate and preach, fair enough...go for it.

Forcing this belief is no different to forcing any other "Self Evident" belief... eg a particular religion.

Its only "Self Evident" to those of us that believe it.

[hobbes]

Rat,

In the US, these Muslims are free to treat their wives as they are taught. We don&#39;t force anything on them.

But they will enter into a society where their women are able to witness a different treatment of their gender.

If you grow up in a society and are taught to think a certain way, you are ignorant of your potential. This "potential" will be right there for every Muslim woman and particularly every Muslim child to witness. This is bound to be seen as a threat to the Muslim male.

Once "individual freedoms" are made visible and tangible, the limits of Muslim tradition will be pushed. Women will want what the American women have, the boys will want to test the limits of freedom. They will want to try alcohol.

When freedom of the individual is presented to the shackled, the revolution comes from within and is not imposed from the outside. It is called an epiphany.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by hobbes@16 May 2004 - 06:14
When freedom of the individual is presented to the shackled, the revolution comes from within and is not imposed from the outside. It is called an epiphany.

I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

I cant remember who said this, but i believe it was an American President:

"A slave cannot be freed, save he do it himself. Nor can you enslave a free man; the very most you can do is kill him"

Wise words.

I cant offhand, think of one country that has had freedom/democracy forced upon it, that has remained stable. The change must come from within.

Likewise, no population will be happy with occupiers. The evidence for this comes from just about every "occupied" territory ever.

The best that i&#39;ve seen was West Germany, and here they had East Germany to look to to see how bad things could have been... and even here there was a strong movement to remove The Allies, it just didnt decend to violence often. Although they had there "resistance" fighters (Terrorists)...And these already knew about the benefits of Democracy.

Even if the world does not consider an area occupied, but the population of that does, violence against the occupiers will rear its head...just look at the Basques in Spain. No one accuses the Spanish Government of Human Rights abuses in recent times with regard to this, they&#39;ve been there a very long time, they vote in their own right in the Spanish Elections and are therefore part of the democratic process. There way of life would not change one way or the other...but a significant fraction of the area consider them "occupiers"

Imagine the feelings of the population then, where an outside force is trying to change your way of life. Where if a full democratic process were inacted the resultant Government would be very anti-american (the occupiers)..and so a puppet Government will be installed.

A puppet Government was the way Saddam Hussain started, so why should they believe anything said to them?

Because we said "We wont leave the job unfinished and leave you in the crap this time"?

Isnt that what the US said a Decade ago, when there was a rebellion and no help was forthcoming?

Didnt the US and UK say this to the Afgans a couple of years ago?

Whats happening there over 95% of the country now? They were better off under the Taliban....at least there was Law, even if tough.

Why should they believe things will get better this time?


I have to be honest here.

Im not religious at all, however if i was Iraqi I would be there with a Gun in my hand, fighting the invaders. And i believe in Freedom, Democracy etc... however i believe stronger in Self Determination.

Im sure if your Country was being Occupied by a hugely stronger force, that was changing your way of life and showing a hugely improved way of life...there would be resistance. The American People believe this, or all those TV shows showing American Resisitance to Alien Invaders wouldnt be so popular (eg Earth: Final Conflict)..... The brave resistance fighters not the cowardly terrorists are the heros...




Maybe bad examples maybe, but im sure you get my meaning.

In the US, these Muslims are free to treat their wives as they are taught.&nbsp; We don&#39;t force anything on them.

Within the confines of US Law, which is as it should be.

If you go to a new country, its only right you abide by their Laws... If you break those Laws, then you should be prosecuted. If your Culture does not conform to those Laws, then tough...you should have went to a country who&#39;s Law does conform with your beliefs, or Lobby to change the Law in the same way the rest of the population does.

[ilw]

Shouldn&#39;t the title of this topic read &#39;from&#39; rather than &#39;to&#39; ?

[Biggles]

Hobbes

Me troll???

I liked your last. I have never quite squared away the US love of the maverick with, say, declaring the Taliban were illegal combatants (or whatever the term).


I recall a movie (albeit fairly ghastly) called Red Dawn. What were the combatants in that movie? Patriotic heros or illegal combatants/terrorists?

There will always be a reaction against an invading force, even if their intentions are wholesome (are all our intentions wholesome?). In the case of Iraq and Afghanistan we need to establish security (it doesn&#39;t have to be perfect) and get out.

[hobbes]

Did you guys change the subject of the thread or what?

I answered the question as to why Muslims are not coming to the US. Rat, you and Biggles are on about a totally different topic- imposing democracy on Iraq.

A fine topic, but not really relevant to this thread or anything I have said.

Maybe the waters got muddy, let me clarify. When I talked about the enlightenment of freedom to Muslims, I was spefically talking about those who have decided to live in America and the subsequent family conflicts which might arise.

I was NOT talking about installing democracy and freedom in Iraq. That is a completely different issue.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by hobbes@16 May 2004 - 19:09
Did you guys change the subject of the thread or what?

I answered the question as to why Muslims are not coming to the US. Rat, you and Biggles are on about a totally different topic- imposing democracy on Iraq.

A fine topic, but not really relevant to this thread or anything I have said.

Maybe the waters got muddy, let me clarify. When I talked about the enlightenment of freedom to Muslims, I was spefically talking about those who have decided to live in America and the subsequent family conflicts which might arise.

I was NOT talking about installing democracy and freedom in Iraq. That is a completely different issue.

My bad..... but i did notice i was way off topic myself, and added a relevant part to my last post......

Sowwy....

[J'Pol]

Who is trying to force democracy on the people of Iraq (I know this is still off topic).

It is my understanding that the people of Iraq will decide what system of government or leadership they follow.

The initial leadership will certainly not be democratically elected, why do we assume that subsequent ones will be.



With regard to Muslim people living in America. Why not, Americans convert to that religion do they not. That being the case there is no difference between an American converting and a Muslim moving to America.

They are both allowed religious tolerance and they are both expected to follow the laws of the USA / State within which they choose to live.