The Gray Zone

[ilw]

Originally posted by j2k4@12 June 2004 - 18:26
If the terrorists are playing out-of-bounds, we are obligated to fight them the same way; was Nick Berg afforded the protections of the Geneva Convention?

Thats crazy imo, the war we should be fighting at the moment is one of hearts and minds not of tit for tat.

Actually, if my government was as horrible as the one under Saddam, I as a proud American, would be happy for someone to kick his ass out of power. Even if it meant war raging in my beloved country. The people of Iraq needed and deserve to be free of Saddam. I'm sure the actual reasons behind the war are far more convoluted than we suspect, but Saddam and his 2 amoral sociopathic sons are no loss.

I feel that the people of Iraq are happy Saddam is gone. Remember the statue of Saddam they pulled down and hit with shoes? Using a shoe is extremely direspectful over there. They hated him, and with good and ample reason. The people of Iraq are not the problem. The terrorists are. I would imagine that having food, running water, electricity and fully staffed hospitals is is a great experience to these people. Not to mention schools and better sanitation.

I have no real problems about kicking saddam out, but the pound of flesh that Bush seems intent on taking in payment would piss me off if it were my country being liberated and it would certainly leave me dubious of any claimed altruistic motives for the war.
As for the toppling of the statue, I think that was certainly the most symbolic image of the war, but possibly from an iraqi point of view the bit where the idiotic squaddies put the american flag on his face first and only when prompted replaced it with the iraqi flag, may have been even more significant.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by longboneslinger@12 June 2004 - 23:08

What about the estimated 10,000 Iraqi's killed during the invasion?

What about the estimated 1,000,000 that died due to depleted Uranium from Desert Storm with a blockade on the means to clean it up and of basic medical supplies and bombing water treatment works etc?

Shit happens in war. It's called 'collateral damage' and is unavoidable. We tried, but it happens. Thats why we should stop wars. People get killed. What governments should realize is that "When you send a soldier to war, he becomes a policy maker. Because when his ass is on the line, he'll do whatever it takes to survive. He'll make his own policy with brute force."

Later taters,
BoNe

Agreed.

However we werent at war at the time of the estimated 1,000,000 men women and children.

The War was also an illegal occupation, there is no moral highground...most can point to countries with bigger bastards that were in charge.

The Sudan is the worst at mo, according to experts...


Where have i said the US?

The UK were right there bombing and blocking medical aid.... and thats my country.

I am not US bashing, sorry if you think i am.

Im saying that i would do exactly the same thing in their shoes, and so i will not call them terrorists.

I still call Al Queda, Hamas, ETA etc etc terrorists...but Iraqi's fighting an invader? even with one of those invaders my own country? No.

No more than i'd call the French Resistance of WWII terrorists.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by ilw+12 June 2004 - 17:31--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ilw @ 12 June 2004 - 17:31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@12 June 2004 - 18:26
If the terrorists are playing out-of-bounds, we are obligated to fight them the same way; was Nick Berg afforded the protections of the Geneva Convention?

Thats crazy imo, the war we should be fighting at the moment is one of hearts and minds not of tit for tat.

Actually, if my government was as horrible as the one under Saddam, I as a proud American, would be happy for someone to kick his ass out of power. Even if it meant war raging in my beloved country. The people of Iraq needed and deserve to be free of Saddam. I&#39;m sure the actual reasons behind the war are far more convoluted than we suspect, but Saddam and his 2 amoral sociopathic sons are no loss.

I feel that the people of Iraq are happy Saddam is gone. Remember the statue of Saddam they pulled down and hit with shoes? Using a shoe is extremely direspectful over there. They hated him, and with good and ample reason. The people of Iraq are not the problem. The terrorists are. I would imagine that having food, running water, electricity and fully staffed hospitals is is a great experience to these people. Not to mention schools and better sanitation.

I have no real problems about kicking saddam out, but the pound of flesh that Bush seems intent on taking in payment would piss me off if it were my country being liberated and it would certainly leave me dubious of any claimed altruistic motives for the war.
As for the toppling of the statue, I think that was certainly the most symbolic image of the war, but possibly from an iraqi point of view the bit where the idiotic squaddies put the american flag on his face first and only when prompted replaced it with the iraqi flag, may have been even more significant. [/b][/quote]
Ian-

Do you seriously propose we vie for the hearts of the terrorists?

We are not killing innocent Iraqis; in fact, we are probably killing more border-crossing insurgents than anything else.

BTW: What "pound of flesh" are you referring to?

[Voetsek]

what if all the troops pull out then who takes over time will tell

[longboneslinger]

Ratfaced: I wasn&#39;t aiming any of my comments at you. Sorry if it seemed that way.

No more than i&#39;d call the French Resistance of WWII terrorists.

Now I am&#33;&#33; Rat, the US doesn&#39;t have a Gestopo. The crap in the prison camp doesn&#39;t put us in the same damn boat as the Nazis&#33;&#33; The Nazi&#39;s didn&#39;t try to rebuild France or remove a dictator from power and I take offense to being compared to those animals&#33; Name me one concentration camp&#33; Were are the mass murders? We stopped most of that shite. The rest is from outsiders-try looking to Syria and Iran.

Compare Iraq with a neighbor hood controlled by criminals. The people of the neighborhood, whatever their race, want help but are afraid to ask. Afraid to help when aid arrives. Why? They are afraid of the criminals, in this case thugs and terrorists.

But what "pound of flesh" are you referring to, ilw?

The War was also an illegal occupation, there is no moral highground...most can point to countries with bigger bastards that were in charge.

Which war? The first-Desert Shield? If so, you are incorrect. The US has a defense treaty with Kuwait. We were obligated to come to their aid.
If you refer to the present war in Iraq, you are again incorrect. At the end of the first conflict, Saddam signed a cease-fire. A cease-fire stating that he would, among other things, let UN inspectors have free access to search for weopons that violated the Geneva Conventions and human rights violations and a no fly-zone established around his country. In the years since Bush senior, then the Chinese disedent CLinton and now W have taken office there have been, at my last count, 17 violations of the cease fire. The first one made the invasion of Iraq perfectly legal. Thats what a cease fire is: You agree to these terms and we agree to stop kicking your ass for as long as you keep to the agreement.
As for occupation, the war end when the fighting stops. Unless it happened in the last couple of hours, I think it&#39;s still going on. If you&#39;ll check other sources than CNN you&#39;ll see what the US has done for Iraq. I really think that most of the trouble is from outsiders. The people are to afraid of these animals. After a lifetime of terror under Saddam, who can blame them?

For 12-13 years Saddam has spit in the UN&#39;s eye and not let their inspectors inspect a damn thing. Nothing was done. If you let someone like Saddam off with nothing done, why expect him ot change?

[Voetsek]

any way the whole thing is a huge mess and will be for a very long time not wanted not liked Vietnam northern island spring to mind no where to go big mess

[Rat Faced]

In the years since Bush senior, then the Chinese disedent CLinton and now W have taken office there have been, at my last count, 17 violations of the cease fire. The first one made the invasion of Iraq perfectly legal. Thats what a cease fire is: You agree to these terms and we agree to stop kicking your ass for as long as you keep to the agreement.

Check your facts..

US & UK planes bombed the crap out of that country for 10 years before the 2nd Iraqi conflict.... we broke the ceasefires a lot more than they did.

We also bombed water treatment works, in clear violation of the geneva convention, and stopped the equipment necessary to clean up the radioactive dust left by our Depleted Uranium shells and even basic Medical Equipment was denied as "Dual Use"....tell me, how is a syringe "Dual Use"? They gonna attack us with them in a full frontal charge?

How are antibiotics "Dual Use"?

Chlorine, needed desperatly to clean the water, as we&#39;d bombed the Water Treatment plants...Dual Use...


I never compared us to Nazi&#39;s either...

90% of Germans were not Nazi&#39;s in WWII, the German Army, less the SS etc were well respected soldiers and very honarable adversaries...the minority were the bastards, its just a shame these people were in charge too.

However, when they invaded Russia as an example... The Russians had lived in a regime much worse than Iraq. Guess which side the Russian Partisans were on?

Was it the Germans?

Or did the Partisans in all these nasty little regimes in South East Europe of the time fight against the Germans Invaders? Despite what their own Governments had been doing to them prior?

Learn by History... It doesnt matter how bad your Government is, an invader is not a Liberator... Its open season on invaders.




Yes, the way they do things are nasty... to us

But you cant judge their culture by your morals.


A lot of what you and I would do without thought is totally immoral to them and vise versa.... If you dont even understand the culture you are interfering with, then you have no business interfering in the culture.

[ruthie]

longboneslinger
"I feel that the people of Iraq are happy Saddam is gone. Remember the statue of Saddam they pulled down and hit with shoes? Using a shoe is extremely direspectful over there. They hated him, and with good and ample reason. The people of Iraq are not the problem. The terrorists are. I would imagine that having food, running water, electricity and fully staffed hospitals is is a great experience to these people. Not to mention schools and better sanitation."


Do you really believe this? The US pulled down the statue, not the Iraqis. The US also draped an american flag on it, and then were told to remove it. Many journalists reported this was staged, and set up to look like a much larger crowd was there. See this page

so you believe that the Iraqi&#39;s ad no electricity, food running water, etc? Please...simply not true. NOW, they have problems. They had water, they had electricity. Now, theyare lucky to have access to either for a few hours a day. We have disrupted these systems grossly, and the civilians are paying the price.

Read thisLife in Iraq

Iraq was not primitive. The coalition of the stupid have only destroyed the utilities, lives, and respect.

[Rat Faced]

I forgot to add....


If you think that my thoughts are that all troops should be withdrawn from Iraq, you are mistaken.

The invasion is a done deal, the Iraqi&#39;s must now be protected until they can protect themselves.


HOWEVER.... The Coalition are invaders, and all coalition forces should be withdrawn and replaced by Troops that had nothing to do with the invasion, preferably from countries that were publicly against it.

These troops may be seen by the populace as peacekeepers, and not the invaders the coalition are seen as.

Sorry...had to get that in, as i believe its very important.

If we withdraw all troops, then all that will happen is the crap we see in Afganistan now... a localised central core of Law & Order, and everywhere else ruled by factions and warlords, with no Justice etc.... ie i bigger mess than the one there when we went in... again, just like afganistan.

[longboneslinger]

Rat: Your point on Russia is well taken. As for my facts, I got most of them from a co-worker who is from Iraq. Saddly, he has since returned to his homeland. He was a great person and the antithesis of the &#39;lunatic muslims&#39; we hear so much about. The tales of Saddam and his sons tear at my heart. He has had family members killed by those who ruled there. Just remember, Hitler was known as a maniac before his stupid invasion of Rusia. Hell, invading Russia was stupid but doing it in the winter was braindead..... but the tales of the atrocities perpetrated by the SS and the Gestapo were traveling faster than the German army. The Russian people knew he was as bad as the present leadership. But your right, it was still an invasion.

As for replacing US forces with new UN troops, I&#39;ll admit that&#39;s not a bad idea. It definately has merit. IF handled properly, it could be a viable solution. I didn&#39;t, and still don&#39;t, agree with the war in Iraq. But what&#39;s done is done.

That power plants and water treatment facilities were bombed is unfortunate also. But it&#39;s still collateral damage. A main target in any war is the infrastructure: power and communications. That drugs and chlorine were in short supply, especially at the start of the war is a problem of logistics. These problems are well on the way to being fixed.

And yes Ruthie, we dirupted their facilities "grossly" and the citizens indeed pay the price. THats the way war is. Citizens always pay the price. As I said, war should be abolished. That they had water and electricity is true, to an extent. No where the level we are used to. Water quality was extremely low, many still using wells and the power was unreliable at best. Thats first hand from an Iraqi who supports the fall of Saddam as most Iraqi&#39;s in America and elsewhere do.
Saddam was against education. The ignorant are easyer to herd. Education would have shown his people a larger, more open world. One that was far different than the one he professed it to be. This hurt the people because it caused a dirth in doctors and other medical professionals and the highly skilled labor pool needed to bring their country fully into the 21st century. That more kids than ever are in class and there are more schools is fact. I say let them gather information about the world and the freedoms enjoyed elsewhere. Knowledge is power, lets share the wealth. Who knows, they might even figure out that the war can be a good thing.

Shheeeeeesh&#33; DIdn&#39;t mean to start a Holy War. This is why I usually don&#39;t debate politics. Peeps become to hot-headed, me included.

Peace to all,
BoNe