Wake up: the American Dream is over

[calm2chaos]

I don't know wtf you are talking about. I'm living the American Dream right now and haven't woke up yet.

I think the whole point is that more of us can only dream in the US and UK.. whereas other countries that dont exactly flaunt their freedoms its a lot easier to actually move between Rich and Poor.

You never, as an example, hear about the "Canadian Dream"... (maybe its not the same as the American one) but the American Dream is achieved easier in Canada.

No one is saying that its impossible to move between income groups in the USA.. just that its harder there than elswhere.

That would be great if it was actually true. Comparing the 2 countries in anyway is ridiculus to start considering A) Our Population is 10x larger then theres and B) Like it or not our economy fuels the global market. With 10x less people they still have a Lower GDP growth rate and per capita income, and coupled with that they have a higher unemployment. This done under the umbrella of the US so to speak. The difference between the uber rich and the poor is staggering in this country. But that is the price you pay for capitolism. But the movement of wealth between the lower, middle and upper middle classes is IMO greater in this country then any other on earth. The opportunity for success is great. And the payoff for your efforts is far greater. All depends on how bad you want it and how hard you work. And ya.... there is a bit of good luck that has to be thrown into the mix.

[longboneslinger]

2 fast comments:
1- on the article.......duh.
2-immigration. We want immigrants. 'Illegal immigrants' is an oxymoron. The last I heard, 11 million peeps came across yer border it was called an invasion. You break the law, yer a criminal. We have plenty. So, 'criminal invaders' is more accurate.

[Busyman™]

2 fast comments:
1- on the article.......duh.
2-immigration. We want immigrants. 'Illegal immigrants' is an oxymoron. The last I heard, 11 million peeps came across yer border it was called an invasion. You break the law, yer a criminal. We have plenty. So, 'criminal invaders' is more accurate.

Thanks for that.

I wish the protesters (the illegals) were carted off back to Meheeko.

Wtf were they protesting?........

Enforcing laws already on the books?
Building a security fence so their Mexican brethren (and those using Mexico as a thruway) can't break the law?

Duh, indeed.

I don't give a fuck if they believe they take jobs Americans don't want. Fuck off.

[Rat Faced]

I think the whole point is that more of us can only dream in the US and UK.. whereas other countries that dont exactly flaunt their freedoms its a lot easier to actually move between Rich and Poor.

You never, as an example, hear about the "Canadian Dream"... (maybe its not the same as the American one) but the American Dream is achieved easier in Canada.

No one is saying that its impossible to move between income groups in the USA.. just that its harder there than elswhere.

That would be great if it was actually true. Comparing the 2 countries in anyway is ridiculus to start considering A) Our Population is 10x larger then theres and B) Like it or not our economy fuels the global market. With 10x less people they still have a Lower GDP growth rate and per capita income, and coupled with that they have a higher unemployment. This done under the umbrella of the US so to speak. The difference between the uber rich and the poor is staggering in this country. But that is the price you pay for capitolism. But the movement of wealth between the lower, middle and upper middle classes is IMO greater in this country then any other on earth. The opportunity for success is great. And the payoff for your efforts is far greater. All depends on how bad you want it and how hard you work. And ya.... there is a bit of good luck that has to be thrown into the mix.

Population and GDP have nothing to do with the ease of movement between relative Income levels.

Im sure that "your opinion" is much more valid than the Research conducted by many economists and Universities from various countries.

I'm not trying to insult any country here, you'll notice that the UK was at the bottom too.

The trouble is that in our 2 countries the divide between "Rich" and "Poor" is greater, and the gulf that needs to be Brdged is therefor that much greater.

The fact of the matter is that more people get rich through Drug Trafficking and AMWAY (or similar) in the USA than through most other means.. a lot of people get poor making each one of those rich.

[Busyman™]

2 thing to take into consideration.

1. We haven't raised our minimum wage since '97, which is just reediculous, considering that the cost of living is way higher.

2. (related to above) Our real estate market went fucking nuts due to a recession and then 9/11 spurring the feds to cut interest rates to record lows.

The housing market became a stock market for that borrowed to buy. They then sold to another "flipper" and so forth. By the the time it ended up in the hands of a person who actually wanted to (God forbid) actually live there, the fucking price probably doubled.

Now we are at a point in many areas that if a person didn't get in earlier, they won't, barring a dramatic increase in pay or settling for a muuuuuch smaller home (maybe).

Now, to curb inflation, the fed has steadily raised interest rates and, because real estate doesn't depreciate much, the damn homes are high as fuck.

High cost home, high interest.

Who knows, we may return to a Reaganomics era where the average joe will have homes with double digit interest rates.

Even now when I talk to youngsters getting out of high school and those that come into inheritances, I tell them that they need to get into a home ASAP.
Many will fuck around buying this and that shit then find out they don't have shit to show for later except an out-dated computer, graphics card, broken down dilapidated car, and abuncha CDs and DVDs, etc......

2 more...

3. Work is being shipped out of the US. Call centers kick ass in India.

4. With all these fucking tax cuts and so called newly created jobs, the average joe sure doesn't see it.

[calm2chaos]

That would be great if it was actually true. Comparing the 2 countries in anyway is ridiculus to start considering A) Our Population is 10x larger then theres and B) Like it or not our economy fuels the global market. With 10x less people they still have a Lower GDP growth rate and per capita income, and coupled with that they have a higher unemployment. This done under the umbrella of the US so to speak. The difference between the uber rich and the poor is staggering in this country. But that is the price you pay for capitolism. But the movement of wealth between the lower, middle and upper middle classes is IMO greater in this country then any other on earth. The opportunity for success is great. And the payoff for your efforts is far greater. All depends on how bad you want it and how hard you work. And ya.... there is a bit of good luck that has to be thrown into the mix.

Population and GDP have nothing to do with the ease of movement between relative Income levels.

Im sure that "your opinion" is much more valid than the Research conducted by many economists and Universities from various countries.

I'm not trying to insult any country here, you'll notice that the UK was at the bottom too.

The trouble is that in our 2 countries the divide between "Rich" and "Poor" is greater, and the gulf that needs to be Brdged is therefor that much greater.

The fact of the matter is that more people get rich through Drug Trafficking and AMWAY (or similar) in the USA than through most other means.. a lot of people get poor making each one of those rich.

And your statement at the end tells alot about your knowledge of the truth and your bias. But the fact is the movement of wealth through the classes is greater in this country then any other. And to say GDP and other economic factors don't mater is stupid. I guess unemployment or employment have nothing to do with wealth. For a country that you claims moves most of it's wealth through drug trafficing it seems amazing how our economy runs the global market...LOL

As for my opinion and economist please show me a source that states wealth does not move within our country. Please explain to me how without the movement of wealth small business within this country are responsible for most jobs.
America's Small Businesses Are Thriving. Small businesses create two out of every three new jobs and account for nearly half of America's overall employment. They have played a vital role in helping our economy add more than 5.1 million new jobs since August 2003 and have helped reduce America's unemployment rate to 4.7 percent, below the average rate of the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Small businesses are also vital for supporting our communities.


The fact is the major wealth is held by a staggering few. And I guess you have to define what you or I mean by "wealth" when speaking in context of 300,000,000 people. But the movement of wealth, great or small is an everyday occurence. this country carries well over 2 million millionaires. My point is simply that within this country you are not doomed to poverty no matter what your situation. The opportunity to move upwards is definetly alive and well. Wether you want to work to pursue that goal is up to you.

The fact of the matter is that more people get rich through Drug Trafficking and AMWAY (or similar) in the USA than through most other means.. a lot of people get poor making each one of those rich.

I have to say again how utterly stupid the above statement actualy is.

[calm2chaos]

2 thing to take into consideration.

1. We haven't raised our minimum wage since '97, which is just reediculous, considering that the cost of living is way higher.

2. (related to above) Our real estate market went fucking nuts due to a recession and then 9/11 spurring the feds to cut interest rates to record lows.

The housing market became a stock market for that borrowed to buy. They then sold to another "flipper" and so forth. By the the time it ended up in the hands of a person who actually wanted to (God forbid) actually live there, the fucking price probably doubled.

Now we are at a point in many areas that if a person didn't get in earlier, they won't, barring a dramatic increase in pay or settling for a muuuuuch smaller home (maybe).

Now, to curb inflation, the fed has steadily raised interest rates and, because real estate doesn't depreciate much, the damn homes are high as fuck.

High cost home, high interest.

Who knows, we may return to a Reaganomics era where the average joe will have homes with double digit interest rates.

Even now when I talk to youngsters getting out of high school and those that come into inheritances, I tell them that they need to get into a home ASAP.
Many will fuck around buying this and that shit then find out they don't have shit to show for later except an out-dated computer, graphics card, broken down dilapidated car, and abuncha CDs and DVDs, etc......

2 more...

3. Work is being shipped out of the US. Call centers kick ass in India.

4. With all these fucking tax cuts and so called newly created jobs, the average joe sure doesn't see it.

You'll see a nice reduction in housing prices very shorty is my bet. To say that real estate doesn't depriciate is completely untrue. The housing market only bears what the market itself can handle. And as interest rates grow housing costs will come down as they always do. If I am asking 300k for a house and I am not gettig it the houseing price will drop. What the prices will do is drive the flippers out because there will not be that imediate turnover of profit. People that bought high and only intended to stay in the house a short while will definetly find them selves stuck.

A home is still the best investment I think you can make early. Specially if it i something you intend to be in for a while. But this is the forst or the last time the housing markets jumped up and then had a heart attack. It will happen again and again. thats what markets due

[j2k4]

1. We haven't raised our minimum wage since '97, which is just reediculous, considering that the cost of living is way higher.

Anyone who seriously argues in favor of raising the minimum wage hasn't given the slightest thought to the effect of such a move.

I will forego the full array of Economics 101 reasons why it is, well...stooooooooooooooooooopid, to state merely that, apart from costing jobs (it cannot be denied that even minimum wage jobs have societal value), it will have the effect only of establishing a "new" bottom-end of the financial scale.

A hike in the minimum wage could not have any positive effect whatsoever on the health of the real estate market, and would more likely result in an up-tick in foreclosures.

Personally, I start my guys a couple of bucks over minimum wage, and go from there.

I am not getting rich; in fact, if my top guy gets a bit of overtime, he makes more than I do.

It is literally the case that the proposed new minimum wage would put me out of business, either by forcing me to employ total schlubs incapable of doing the job, or pricing me out of a contract.

Is that a good thing, Busyman?

[Busyman™]

1. We haven't raised our minimum wage since '97, which is just reediculous, considering that the cost of living is way higher.

Anyone who seriously argues in favor of raising the minimum wage hasn't given the slightest thought to the effect of such a move.

I will forego the full array of Economics 101 reasons why it is, well...stooooooooooooooooooopid, to state merely that, apart from costing jobs (it cannot be denied that even minimum wage jobs have societal value), it will have the effect only of establishing a "new" bottom-end of the financial scale.

A hike in the minimum wage could not have any positive effect whatsoever on the health of the real estate market, and would more likely result in an up-tick in foreclosures.

Who said it would?

Personally, I start my guys a couple of bucks over minimum wage, and go from there.

I am not getting rich; in fact, if my top guy gets a bit of overtime, he makes more than I do.

It is literally the case that the proposed new minimum wage would put me out of business, either by forcing me to employ total schlubs incapable of doing the job, or pricing me out of a contract.

Is that a good thing, Busyman?

That's utter bullshit. It's also what the Repubs are arguing.

First off, folks need to cut the bullshit about "if they raise taxes I'll cut jobs, raise the minimum wage I'll cut jobs".

What you propose is stoooooopid. What you propose directly relates to why the financial gap between rich and poor wiiiiidens. The bottom end should not stay at the same bottom forever, j2. We should not go into 2030 with the same fucking minimum wage. I think we are due for an increase at about the decade mark.

[Busyman™]

2 thing to take into consideration.

1. We haven't raised our minimum wage since '97, which is just reediculous, considering that the cost of living is way higher.

2. (related to above) Our real estate market went fucking nuts due to a recession and then 9/11 spurring the feds to cut interest rates to record lows.

The housing market became a stock market for that borrowed to buy. They then sold to another "flipper" and so forth. By the the time it ended up in the hands of a person who actually wanted to (God forbid) actually live there, the fucking price probably doubled.

Now we are at a point in many areas that if a person didn't get in earlier, they won't, barring a dramatic increase in pay or settling for a muuuuuch smaller home (maybe).

Now, to curb inflation, the fed has steadily raised interest rates and, because real estate doesn't depreciate much, the damn homes are high as fuck.

High cost home, high interest.

Who knows, we may return to a Reaganomics era where the average joe will have homes with double digit interest rates.

Even now when I talk to youngsters getting out of high school and those that come into inheritances, I tell them that they need to get into a home ASAP.
Many will fuck around buying this and that shit then find out they don't have shit to show for later except an out-dated computer, graphics card, broken down dilapidated car, and abuncha CDs and DVDs, etc......

2 more...

3. Work is being shipped out of the US. Call centers kick ass in India.

4. With all these fucking tax cuts and so called newly created jobs, the average joe sure doesn't see it.

You'll see a nice reduction in housing prices very shorty is my bet. To say that real estate doesn't depriciate is completely untrue.

Who did?

The housing market only bears what the market itself can handle. And as interest rates grow housing costs will come down as they always do. If I am asking 300k for a house and I am not gettig it the houseing price will drop. What the prices will do is drive the flippers out because there will not be that imediate turnover of profit. People that bought high and only intended to stay in the house a short while will definetly find them selves stuck.

Yeah but in this current market. it's taking awhile for houses to drop. Even then, they will only drop but so much. I doubt we'll pre-millenium prices ever again. There are houses in my area that have doubled in a 5-year period. Even more than that in DC.