Questions for Kermit ...

[Mr JP Fugley]

the second is because you can't accept that humans aren't special.

Why should I, we are special

the third is still widely accepted even though it's impossible. people find it difficult to believe this is just a survival mechanism. there are influences such as drugs and brain damage that can change a personality. sleep deprivation can make us act unlike we normally do. brain damage can make a person forget everything they've ever done.

You having alternative explanations doesn't make it impossible. Both can be true.

if there is an afterlife we won't remember this one, and because this one can be corrupted by so many things beyond our control it shouldn't effect the next.

Not a clue what you mean there. Seriously, not a clue.

first off, when did we become special? if you believe in evolution and heaven, do mice and amoebas go to heaven?

as for the rest of what i said. if there was afterlife what does it have to do with this one? we know memory and personality and stuff are governed by hormones and the brain. if a brain is damaged personality and memory are effected.

if i lived a good life then turned into a violent sociopath due to injuries in a car accident. will i be judged on life only up until the accident or what?

If you want to equate yourself with an amoeba fill yer boots mate, I'm self aware. Also, please provide me a list of all the great inventions of the animal kingdom, sans man. I'm not talking evolution to adapt to their changing environement, I'm talking actually making stuff, just coz they want to.

Secondly, I don't equate my soul with my brain or the chemicals in my body. You seem to think that we believe the consciousness is basically removed from the brain and goes to live as a wee ghost in the clouds. Other people may, I don't. Please don't ask me to explain in detail what I do believe, I'm not entirely sure myself and I'm certainly not good enough at putting it into written words.

You will be judged appropriately. Christianity (mine) does not teach that everyone is judged in the same way. It's how one lives, but it's also what one is given and what happens during your life that matters. As I understand it it's not a tick list that St Peter checks at the door then decides if you're in or out.

[vidcc]

If you want to equate yourself with an amoeba fill yer boots mate, I'm self aware. Also, please provide me a list of all the great inventions of the animal kingdom, sans man. I'm not talking evolution to adapt to their changing environement, I'm talking actually making stuff, just coz they want to.

I'm not sure that mans inventions are a good test as to being "special".
Obviously we are move advanced in our own habitat.

Although I'm not sure if this counts as "just because they want to", many animals do make use of their surroundings to makes basic tools and one can't deny that birds and spiders make structures, Bees, termites and ants are another example, all without the benefit of the opposable thumb or our large brain. I realise that some is instinct but often it's learned. Many animals are able to figure out complex "puzzles" so we know they have intellect.
Secondly, yes man has achieved many great things, but he has also achieved many bad things. Can we both agree not all inventions would make us special in a good way?
All this aside it doesn't address the question of all life going to "heaven" or just man.

You will be judged appropriately. Christianity (mine) does not teach that everyone is judged in the same way. It's how one lives, but it's also what one is given and what happens during your life that matters. As I understand it it's not a tick list that St Peter checks at the door then decides if you're in or out.

I appreciate that this could another one of those different doctrines according to which "branch" one is a member of but I found this interesting.

It is not necessary as a Christian to perform good works IN ORDER to please God because, first of all, our good deeds are but filthy rags to God (Isaiah 64:6) and, most important, we are made righteous in the eyes of God by the finished work of Jesus on the cross (Rom. 5). This is one of the areas where the cults error. They confuse good works with the forgiveness of sins. They combine the two and teach that God will not accept us if we are not trying to be good. Because they have a wrong view of who Jesus is, they have a wrong view of salvation.

source

I hadn't heard of the combining the two because if you don't do good deeds bit, but I had heard that it doesn't matter what good deeds you do if you don't accept Christ as your Saviour......Christ is the only way into heaven....(In one religion).

[Mr JP Fugley]

I'm not sure that mans inventions are a good test as to being "special".

I think they are, they separate us from all other animals. I genuinely can't even see how anyone would not think our incredible achievements, in a relatively short period, make us special in all of Earth's history.

Obviously we are move advanced in our own habitat.

Although I'm not sure if this counts as "just because they want to", many animals do make use of their surroundings to makes basic tools and one can't deny that birds and spiders make structures, Bees, termites and ants are another example, all without the benefit of the opposable thumb or our large brain. I realise that some is instinct but often it's learned. Many animals are able to figure out complex "puzzles" so we know they have intellect.

Animals do make use of their environment, that's true. However their use of tools, on the rare occasion it occurs, is minimal. As to complex puzzles, teaching a squirrel to press a few levers to get to a nut really isn't that complex. Particularly when compared to what one can teach the most befuddled dolt of a human being.

Secondly, yes man has achieved many great things, but he has also achieved many bad things. Can we both agree not all inventions would make us special in a good way?

Whether inventions are good or bad, or put to good use or bad, is irrelevant in this context. I agree that man has put his inventiveness to evil uses, however that makes it no less special that he achieved the things

That's another thing which makes us special. We consider that we are capable of good and bad, we are that self-aware. Does anyone think that another animal can be good or bad. Is the Lion killing it's prey and eating it alive, evil. If a man ripped a deer to pieces, but didn't kill it, then started to eat it whilst it was still alive. Would that be considered bad.

Of course it would because we have risen above that, we are special.

[vidcc]

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Animals do make use of their environment, that's true. However their use of tools, on the rare occasion it occurs, is minimal. As to complex puzzles, teaching a squirrel to press a few levers to get to a nut really isn't that complex. Particularly when compared to what one can teach the most befuddled dolt of a human being.

Who said anything about "teaching" squirrels to press levers, I was talking about them being able to figure things out for themselves. That denotes intelligence. Animals in their everyday life provide solutions to problems. I appreciate the argument here is levels of intelligence but then humans are the ones setting the rules.

My initial point was that there are better ways to show that man is "special" than his inventions and that we are just talking scale.

[Mr JP Fugley]

.
Animals do make use of their environment, that's true. However their use of tools, on the rare occasion it occurs, is minimal. As to complex puzzles, teaching a squirrel to press a few levers to get to a nut really isn't that complex. Particularly when compared to what one can teach the most befuddled dolt of a human being.

Who said anything about "teaching" squirrels to press levers, I was talking about them being able to figure things out for themselves. That denotes intelligence. Animals in their everyday life provide solutions to problems. I appreciate the argument here is levels of intelligence but then humans are the ones setting the rules.

My initial point was that there are better ways to show that man is "special" than his inventions and that we are just talking scale.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I was just using that as an example.

What type of "puzzle" were you referring to.

[bigboab]

I think this pic shows one of those rare occasion when animals use intelligence.

[vidcc]

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I was just using that as an example.

What type of "puzzle" were you referring to.

It's not the kind of puzzle I questioned it was you saying the squirrel was "taught" to press the lever, when in fact the lever was put there and the squirrel figured it out for himself.

However in nature animals figure out how to reach things that are out of reach, how to open things, how to escape things etc. etc. Granted not all animals.

But as to being special that will always depend on what the measurement is. Personally I think there are things in nature that have their own "specialness"

That's another thing which makes us special. We consider that we are capable of good and bad, we are that self-aware. Does anyone think that another animal can be good or bad.

I think this is a much better example with a few provisos. Perhaps it is rare for animals to know the difference between good and bad, but I am undecided on if it is impossible. First we have to define good and bad. In your example of the lion killing its food is natures method bad?. It may be from a human stance but the human method is rare in nature. It could be said it's a matter of opinion. How many animals kill for pleasure? (even without the ability to know good or bad)
Some animals have complex social systems that we don't fully understand, how do we know that they don't have good/bad rules within those systems, and would the good/bad rules match our own? We don't know everything about nature.


All this aside I note that the point gepper raised was about getting into heaven

first off, when did we become special? if you believe in evolution and heaven, do mice and amoebas go to heaven?

Hasn't been answered.

Perhaps he could clarify this for me but even given the previous post It seems to me he was asking from a spiritual stance as to what was special about humans compared to other animals in regards to getting into heaven.
If that is the case our "superiority" would be irrelevant in answering the question.

If this is not what he was asking, ignore this.

[vidcc]

I think this pic shows one of those rare occasion when animals use intelligence.

Do you always have to bring our president into it

What is he doing? Crossing a river or fishing?

Given enough time will other animals evolve to be as "achieved" as humans? Is it just we are at a different stage?

[bigboab]

I think this pic shows one of those rare occasion when animals use intelligence.

What is he doing? Crossing a river or fishing?

Given enough time will other animals evolve to be as "achieved" as humans? Is it just we are at a different stage?

Crossing a river. I can think of a few people that would not think of using a stick to keep their balance when doing this.

[Mr JP Fugley]

It's not the kind of puzzle I questioned it was you saying the squirrel was "taught" to press the lever, when in fact the lever was put there and the squirrel figured it out for himself.

However in nature animals figure out how to reach things that are out of reach, how to open things, how to escape things etc. etc. Granted not all animals.

But as to being special that will always depend on what the measurement is. Personally I think there are things in nature that have their own "specialness"

That's another thing which makes us special. We consider that we are capable of good and bad, we are that self-aware. Does anyone think that another animal can be good or bad.

I think this is a much better example with a few provisos. Perhaps it is rare for animals to know the difference between good and bad, but I am undecided on if it is impossible. First we have to define good and bad. In your example of the lion killing its food is natures method bad?. It may be from a human stance but the human method is rare in nature. It could be said it's a matter of opinion. How many animals kill for pleasure? (even without the ability to know good or bad)
Some animals have complex social systems that we don't fully understand, how do we know that they don't have good/bad rules within those systems, and would the good/bad rules match our own? We don't know everything about nature.


All this aside I note that the point gepper raised was about getting into heaven

first off, when did we become special? if you believe in evolution and heaven, do mice and amoebas go to heaven?

Hasn't been answered.

Perhaps he could clarify this for me but even given the previous post It seems to me he was asking from a spiritual stance as to what was special about humans compared to other animals in regards to getting into heaven.
If that is the case our "superiority" would be irrelevant in answering the question.

If this is not what he was asking, ignore this.

I said we were special.

He asked "first off, when did we become special?" the question ends there, that's how punctuation works.

I suppose you could argue that my answer was really how we were special, rather than when it happened. However I thought that's what he was really asking.

We are special, in the animal kingdom, in many ways. Our inventiveness is one example. I agree with you that there are others, I just chose that one because it was so blindingly obvious that I didn't see how anyone could deny it.

A monkey uses a stick as a lever, cool. We invented the internal combustion engine. In fact fuck it, here's a claim. We are more inventive than every other animal added together, ever. I think that makes us pretty special.