McCain wins

[clocker]

I thought they banned helicopter hunts?

No.

[IdolEyes787]

I thought they banned helicopter hunts?

Are helicopters endangered species now

No but there's enough pressure on them that the government is considering a 3 Bell limit.

[IdolEyes787]

I thought they banned helicopter hunts?

No.

Cunt.

[j2k4]

What about the 700,000 jobs to build and run the operation?
Where did this number come from?
How would you dump even a fraction of that many people into a wildlife refuge without adverse effects?

How could gasoline not be at least slightly cheaper?
Let me count the ways...
-It is unknown what kind of oil may be under the ground there. If it ain't light, sweet crude, it isn't going to be gasoline anyway.

-"The total production from ANWR would be between 0.4 and 1.2 percent of total world oil consumption in 2030. Consequently, ANWR oil production is not projected to have a large impact on world oil prices. Furthermore, the Energy Information Administration does not feel ANWR will affect the global price of oil when past behaviors of the oil market are considered. "The opening of ANWR is projected to have its largest oil price reduction impacts as follows: a reduction in low-sulfur, light crude oil prices of $0.41 per barrel (2006 dollars) in 2026 for the low oil resource case, $0.75 per barrel in 2025 for the mean oil resource case, and $1.44 per barrel in 2027 for the high oil resource case, relative to the reference case." "Assuming that world oil markets continue to work as they do today, the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) could neutralize any potential price impact of ANWR oil production by reducing its oil exports by an equal amount."(source:United States Energy Information Dept./wiki)"

Not to mention the positive effect of providing our own oil, rather than supporting Wahabbist Saudi church-schools by purchasing from the mid-east?
Our largest supplier of crude oil is Canada, so we'd better beware the beavers as well.
Until we wean ourselves from a gasoline based lifestyle, we will ALWAYS be in thrall to external suppliers...even a best-case scenario in Alaska will not make a dent in our demand.
Besides, faced with increasing demand from China and India- two economies that actually have money to spend and are much closer to the wellhead- OPEC will find it increasingly hard to maintain "favored trader" status with the US, no matter what we do.

Need I go on?

Yes, you do.

Then I will, but tomorrow, rather than tonight.

I'm gonna have some ice cream and kick back.

[clocker]

I'm gonna have some ice cream and kick back.

On this at least, we are in total agreement.
Ice cream>internet bullshit.

Did you know that Haagen Daz dropped (as in, STOPPED MAKING!!) Vanilla Fudge?
Fukkin elitist, fake Scandinavian bastards.

They've stopped responding to my calls....

[j2k4]

I'm gonna have some ice cream and kick back.

On this at least, we are in total agreement.
Ice cream>internet bullshit.

Did you know that Haagen Daz dropped (as in, STOPPED MAKING!!) Vanilla Fudge?
Fukkin elitist, fake Scandinavian bastards.

They've stopped responding to my calls....

That's socialism for you.

Vanilla fudge shortages, ftw.

[brotherdoobie]

Ben and Jerry's > *



-bd

[clocker]

Ben and Jerry's > *

Sorry, inferior mouthfeel.

Best ice cream ever is from the University of Wisconsin's Agriculture School (Dairy division), sold in the student union hall in Madison.
Supposedly, the U. of Pennsylvania's is equally as good but I can't confirm this.

If I lived in Madison I'd be a bleedin blimp in no time.

[j2k4]

What about the 700,000 jobs to build and run the operation?
Where did this number come from?
How would you dump even a fraction of that many people into a wildlife refuge without adverse effects?

How could gasoline not be at least slightly cheaper?
Let me count the ways...
-It is unknown what kind of oil may be under the ground there. If it ain't light, sweet crude, it isn't going to be gasoline anyway.

-"The total production from ANWR would be between 0.4 and 1.2 percent of total world oil consumption in 2030. Consequently, ANWR oil production is not projected to have a large impact on world oil prices. Furthermore, the Energy Information Administration does not feel ANWR will affect the global price of oil when past behaviors of the oil market are considered. "The opening of ANWR is projected to have its largest oil price reduction impacts as follows: a reduction in low-sulfur, light crude oil prices of $0.41 per barrel (2006 dollars) in 2026 for the low oil resource case, $0.75 per barrel in 2025 for the mean oil resource case, and $1.44 per barrel in 2027 for the high oil resource case, relative to the reference case." "Assuming that world oil markets continue to work as they do today, the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) could neutralize any potential price impact of ANWR oil production by reducing its oil exports by an equal amount."(source:United States Energy Information Dept./wiki)"

Not to mention the positive effect of providing our own oil, rather than supporting Wahabbist Saudi church-schools by purchasing from the mid-east?
Our largest supplier of crude oil is Canada, so we'd better beware the beavers as well.
Until we wean ourselves from a gasoline based lifestyle, we will ALWAYS be in thrall to external suppliers...even a best-case scenario in Alaska will not make a dent in our demand.
Besides, faced with increasing demand from China and India- two economies that actually have money to spend and are much closer to the wellhead- OPEC will find it increasingly hard to maintain "favored trader" status with the US, no matter what we do.

Need I go on?

Yes, you do.

Okay, in order:

The 700K number comes from a 1997 study commissioned in response to the original decision to remove ANWR from consideration for drilling.

Currently ANWR.org estimates job generation could/would fall anywhere between 250K and 735K.

Check here, if you like:

http://www.anwr.org/topten.htm

Never mind "dumping" a fraction of those people into a wildlife refuge - dump twice that many, and they'd still be lost in an area that size.

700K divided by 3K = 230-odd people per acre.

Not many at all, considering it as an industrial site.

Besides which, what "adverse" effect do you refer to, and, on top of that, who are you (or Uncle Sam, for that matter) to tell Alaskan citizens they can't do something that is good for them and the rest of our country?

Really, now - what's it to you, as long as it's done right?

As to precisely what type of oil is under ANWR, I'm sure some forecasting can be done, but again, if whatever-it-is roughly fits the definition of "oil", it will be of benefit, even ignoring the boon of jobs.

Gasoline isn't the only consideration; we have tons of other uses for petroleum, as you know.

As to this...

-"The total production from ANWR would be between 0.4 and 1.2 percent of total world oil consumption in 2030. Consequently, ANWR oil production is not projected to have a large impact on world oil prices.

...I would ask, if you claim it cannot even be known what type of crude you will find, how can this info be treated as gospel?

Bottom line:

We know there's a shitload of oil, but we cannot know anything else to any degree of precision, apart from the fact it will have a beneficial effect on prices, and we have no further to look for evidence of that than the reaction (price-wise) to Bush's statement urging more drilling, and that's a fact.

As to the rest, China and India aside, I daresay even the Canadians might be offended at being equated with Saudi Arabia, Venezuela and the like.

The more we do for ourselves, the less we'll need done by others - fact.

I'd also like an answer to this question:

What is the point, even if we are running short of oil, and need to develop alternatives, of leaving a single drop of it in the ground?

[clocker]

We know there's a shitload of oil...
We "know" nothing of the sort.
Oil company geologists suspect there may be oil based on similar geological formations in other areas but what may be underneath the ANWR site is pure speculation.
...but we cannot know anything else to any degree of precision, apart from the fact it will have a beneficial effect on prices...
A minimal effect on prices which won't even occur for a few decades.
... and we have no further to look for evidence of that than the reaction (price-wise) to Bush's statement urging more drilling, and that's a fact.
Which just goes to show that oil prices- like every other commodity- are based more on perception than reality. In fact, oil prices- unlike say, orange futures- is almost completely untethered to actual availability.
Just look at how pump prices rise before a national holiday (July 4th, for instance) and then drop immediately after...is this because production changed?
No, the oil companies predict a rise in demand and increase prices to make more money.
Since demand is only going to increase, history shows that price will increase with it.


I'd also like an answer to this question:

What is the point, even if we are running short of oil, and need to develop alternatives, of leaving a single drop of it in the ground?

Why ask me?
Ask the oil companies.
Currently, less than a quarter of the 40 million acres of land that they already lease is under development.
Why is that?
Bush/Cheney have already overridden environmental protections, loosened licensing procedures and provided tax incentives - effectively given the land away (the average cost to the oil companies is approximately $3 per year per acre for these leases) and what have they done with it?
Absolutely nothing.

You want to drill for every last drop...fine, let's start with land that oil companies already control- land that's within the continental US (lower transportation cost) and far less challenging climate-wise.

Edit:
In addition...
You do realize that there is absolutely no prohibition against exporting oil from any of the US sites?
Given that all our refineries are privately owned by multinational corporations whose #1 priority is profit, what guarantee do we have that oil produced from ANWR will even end up in US gas stations?