Ireland

[J'Pol]

I agree with the constitutional claim being dropped as a positive step. I also believe that this is more of an issue for the people of England and the people living in the North than it is for the people living in the South.

Put bluntly I think they have come to the conclusion that it really isn't worth the bother of fighting any more. They have a good stable economy, working well within the EU framework. They appear to have a relativity happy populace, who enjoy a good standard of living.

They may have looked at the situation in places like Germany and thought, wait a minute, do we really want to re-unite after this time. The English caused this problem when they partitioned the country, in such an obviously biased way. Let them deal with it.

[chalice]

I agree that you really can't blame Eire for making a decent life for her citizens.
Yet what goes up must come down. Eire has been riding a nice economical crest and this in no way harms the entirety of the island. The Celtic Tiger is being seen to be waning, though and ,as I said, Sinn Fein gains southern ground every year.

If Sinn Fein do become a wieldable political force in the south, how long can that constitutional ammendment remain ammended?

[Billy_Dean]

If Sinn Fein do become a wieldable political force in the south, how long can that constitutional ammendment remain ammended?

I see a strange event unfolding in Europe which may help. Britain is a union of countries and states. The British government is a central government. Yet this role is gradually being made redundant by the EU. Each country in Britain now deals, in some ways, directly with the EU. Is there going to come a time when a central government, or even a Britain, no longer exists?

The English caused this problem when they partitioned the country, in such an obviously biased way. Let them deal with it.

I think you'll find the Irish voted for partition Clocko. As I've said many times, Ireland has been engaged in a civil war for decades, 800 years, one poster put it. That Britain caused it is neither here nor there. This is now, WE have to clean it up, not the perpetrators, they're all dead. And I don't think many Irish people would take you up on your offer of letting the English sort it out.


B)

[Rat Faced]

I think any referendum of the UK would result in Ulster not belonging to the UK any longer.....despite what the people of Northern Ireland wanted.

This would be wrong, as the UK is responsible, and should face up to its responsibilities.


If the Union does break up, can we re-define the Borders again?

The North of England would probably rather be ruled by Edinburgh than London....we have a lot more in common with the Scots than the South of England.

Even the old Borders would do.....Hadrians Wall

(Im North of that, i can live with it )

[J'Pol]

Please accept my apologies in advance Billy_Dean.

Like a lot of people here I have been through these arguements so many times that there is no point any more. I cannot be bothered discussing this situation, because in my experience the sides are so entrenched that the arguement is pointless. Neither side listens anyway.

My position is very clear, the North of Ireland was split in such a way as to ensure Protestant domination. The Catholics who were unfortunate enough to live there were second class citizens. They had virtually no human rights. The English Government supported this position and formed Police forces to enforce it. The Provisional IRA re-formed as a direct result of this and fought to protect the catholic community from the very Police who should have been doing it. They had not been active since the second world war. The Loyalist paramilitary then fought against the IRA and the whole thing just escalated and became convoluted and confused from there.There is no need to look 800 years into history. The modern problems are from the middle of the last century.

Now the organisations work together in drug trafficking, money laundering, racketeering and so forth. They are basically just gangster organisations and when profit is available they are happy to work together.

Someone will no doubt take an entirely different view, that is the way these things go. Both sides can read the same history and see entirely different reasons and motives.

BTW who is Clocko ?

[Billy_Dean]

I have no disagreement with you there JPaul, only to add that a referendum in the early 20's asked each county of Ireland to vote on seperation from Britain, or not. Protestants, who were being persecuted over the years had drifted north for the protection afforded them by being in the majority. These counties voted to remain part of Britain.

The treatment of catholics you speak of is certainly true. My point is, that this is a civil war, both sides are right and both sides are wrong. All that now has to be put aside. The last thing Ireland needs right now is a British imposed solution.

As for the borders in England RF, I believe that may well happen one day, maybe not an amalgamation with Scotland, but at least a regional government. If that's what the people want, anything's possible.


B)

[Barbarossa]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@14 September 2003 - 20:22
I think any referendum of the UK would result in Ulster not belonging to the UK any longer.....despite what the people of Northern Ireland wanted.

I think it's about time all the countries of the so-called "UK" became separate states inside of the EU. The false structure of a United Kingdom seems pretty irrelevent in the modern World order.

Then at least the people who whinge about being governed from Westminster can whinge about being governed from Brussels instead.


You're not going to please all the people all the time, that's what democracy is all about..

[chalice]

Originally posted by barbarossa@15 September 2003 - 10:55


Then at least the people who whinge about being governed from Westminster can whinge about being governed from Brussels instead.


You're not going to please all the people all the time, that's what democracy is all about..

Would that all that they did was whinge.
There is no democracy in Northern Ireland and that's what Northern Ireland is all about.

[Billy_Dean]

Chalice

There is no democracy in Northern Ireland and that's what Northern Ireland is all about.

What is the situation there now regarding, the Assembly?


B)

[chalice]

At present, Billy, the Northern Ireland Assembly at Stormont is in a state of suspension. This is the fourth heavily-pregnant pause since the genesis of The Good Friday Agreement.

The Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) are (debatably) in disarray. Distracted my internal gripes and egoism. David Trimble teeters on the brink of obsolescence; heckled down to a whisper by his own party. Shades of Thatcher's toppling cannot be ignored.

The Democratic Unionist Party (DUP, created by Ian Paisley et al and perpetuated by Ian Paisley Jnr) seem to be widening their foothold in Portadown. The parades have passed off relatively peacefully this year (and by that I don't mean without violence). The DUP is to be seen gleefully toldyousoing.

Sinn Fein will not accept the "re-vamped" and "re-alligned" police force; stating it's just another Westminster facade and so discouraging any Nationalist/Catholic warming to it.

The SDLP, the priciple party of the Catholic community, in the absence of any sign of devolution or democratic process, are inevitably losing subscribers and the hard line can be seen to rise in the ghettoes (I use that term loosely).

The remaining parties, PUP, IUP, The Workers Party and an alphabet soup of others just offload their votes when the border suits them.

This is a big can of worms, Billy and that was the simpest way I could put it at a push.

I will eventually post my own views on NI in this thread but I warn you, its not pretty.