Israeli Ambassador

[putty]

Keep going, you're doing GREAT!

[hobbes]

Putty,

I tried to warn you, this thread is a rerun.

EBP referring to Hobbes:

Yet.. I am biased?? I am deceptive?? What an insane state of affairs... Anyone who supports these actions yet claims to be anything other than a psychopath is deceptive in the extreme.

This is what EBP told me before his departure and name change to Leftism or 1234 or both. Speculation on my part, but certainly the same song and dance routine.

Hobbes:

I have never tried to justify that Israel is "right" and Palestine "wrong", I have just suggested that it a two way street and that there are extremists on both sides keeping the civilian population hostage. It is time that both sides got control of their extremists and stopped dying for their insanity.
I have also tried to explain why American policy is pro-Israel, rather than justify it.
I would say that I am far closer to being in the pro-people party than EBP. Honestly, I think both sides are just a bunch of lunatics, killing each other to defend their belief in a loving God. The irony is so bitterly rich.

From this thread: https://filesharingtalk.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=527901 ,but the topic was spread out over several different ones.

My point in the whole thread was above, each time answered with the same, "you support indiscrimate slaughter.....".

I finally learned to jump off the train. If you continue on your journey, remember you and your fellow passengers will enjoy a turbulent ride and end up nowhere.

[putty]

Thanks hobbes.

There does come a point when you realize that you're debating a 14 year old and then you start to feel bad about doing it.

Judging Lefty's posts, that's pretty much where I am.

[leftism]

Originally posted by hobbes
My point in the whole thread was above, each time answered with the same, "you support indiscrimate slaughter.....".

Ahh, so thats what all this EBP weirdness you keep on mentioning is related to.

One quick point hobbes.

Where in this thread have I said the phrase "you support indiscriminate slaughter"?

Putty/Venom revealed that he thought killing muslims and wrapping their bodies in pork was a good idea.

Note carefully

I didnt accuse him of that, he admitted it of his own free will with no accusations from me. I've merely used this admission to throw doubt upon putty/venoms position. I think this is quite acceptable.

@putty

Thats a shame. I would have liked to see you explain why the King David hotel bombing wasnt a terrorist act.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by leftism+5 February 2004 - 22:20--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 5 February 2004 - 22:20)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
My point in the whole thread was above, each time answered with the same, "you support indiscrimate slaughter.....".

Ahh, so thats what all this EBP weirdness you keep on mentioning is related to.

One quick point hobbes.

Where in this thread have I said the phrase "you support indiscriminate slaughter"?
[/b][/quote]

You didn&#39;t, EBP did. I was making reference to my experiences in the prior thread, not this one. Sorry, if that was unclear.

https://filesharingtalk.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=527382

Your words may be different, but the M.O. very similar.

I&#39;ve learned from prior personal failures that if I keep my emotions in check and keep my keel steady in tough waters, I can actually reach people and that what keeps me here. Biggles does a great job of this.

failure edit

J2 has kept the original post intact - gee thanks-later in that same thread-damn quote function.


Personally, I don&#39;t think I&#39;m telling you anything you don&#39;t know. I think you could refine the way you post if you wanted to. You could call peoples&#39; attention to the fact that Israels&#39; role in the perpetuation of the MiddleEast conflict may be significantly under-represented in American media and expand delicately from there.

Calling Americans brain-washed and under the influence of a Zionist media, really starts things off poorly.

Since I think you know this, I just don&#39;t understand what your goal is? I think you&#39;re wasting your intelligence and that is a shame.

[leftism]

I pretty much agree with all the the points you raised, apart from this next bit.

Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Calling Americans brain-washed and under the influence of a Zionist media, really starts things off poorly. [/b]

I dont recall saying that Americans are brainwashed. However putty/venom did start us off by saying all Europeans are brainwashed. In response (playing devils advocate) I said something along the lines of "how do you know its not you lot who are brainwashed", which is quite different.

I did say that many Americans are influenced by the largely pro-Israel media but I dont think thats offensive and it doesnt constitute brainwashing. There is a reason why companies spend millions on advertising and thats because it works. I dont think its a mark of shame on a nation to say they are affected by this.

What I take issue with is whether proof or logic is offered to show that the media organisations in question really do have this bias. e.g. putty/venom has consistently argued that most Europeans are anti-semitic and that the allegedley pro-arab European media organisations are to blame for this. He&#39;s never offered any logical reasoning or proof to tell us why these media organisations are selling pro-Arab propaganda to a predominantly Judeo-Christian continent.

On the other hand, I and other people in this thread have shown that individuals such as Rupert Murdoch are extremely pro-Israel and even call themselves Zionists. We&#39;ve pointed out that Europe has specific laws aimed at protecting Jews, all to no avail. We are a continent of anti-semites and thats why we disagree with Israel&#39;s policies. If putty/venom wants to label (and insult) an entire continent as anti-semitic, he should at least be polite enough to offer some proof or reasoning.

Instead we are offered a tautology. Why do they disagree with Israel? Because they&#39;re anti-semitic. How do you know they&#39;re anti-semitic? Because they disagree with Israel.

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
Since I think you know this, I just don&#39;t understand what your goal is? I think you&#39;re wasting your intelligence and that is a shame.[/quote]

Once it became clear that putty/venom was impervious to any form of rationality I abandoned all attempts to engage in a logical debate. Particularly when he said he "understood" the killing of muslims and the wrapping of their bodies in pork.

People like that can&#39;t be reached, they are just too far gone.

PS

I&#39;ve read a few news reports recently that indicate American public opinion is starting to move away from Israel, albeit quite slowly. Perhaps in a few years time you&#39;ll have the honour of trying to convince putty/venom that your nation isnt composed of jew-haters? If it ever does come to that, I&#39;m pretty sure you&#39;ll understand my hostility

[putty]

Don&#39;t stop now, you&#39;re almost there&#33;

[leftism]

Originally posted by leftism+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Once it became clear that putty/venom was impervious to any form of rationality....[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-putty/venom
Don&#39;t stop now, you&#39;re almost there&#33;[/quote]

I rest my case...

[1234]

The bottom line is that both the Israelis and Palestinians are there and neither is going anywhere. Israel will withdraw from just about all the territories. Polls have consistently shown that this is what the Israeli majority wants. The whole debate is how to do it.

It is one of the peculiar aspects of Isreali politics that the people always say they want peace and are prepared to sacrifice land for it, but they then elect the leaders least likely to do it. When a leader with a chance to further that policy is finally elected, jewish extremists assasinate him.

Israel cannot and will not leave a vacuum of power in its place, ready for Hamas and the other terrorists to try and claim power. We all know that Arafat would not stand in their way, for fear of being killed himself.

As already mentioned, stop destroying any attempt by the PLO to build an infrastructure both in terms of law and law enforcement. Bombing and killing their policemen doesn&#39;t allow them to perform even basic functions.

Israel has tried since Oslo to take steps back but each time they have, terror attacks have originated from those areas bringing the IDF back in

Because you are still not pulling back far or fast enough. Stop looking for a face saving way out and just leave all the occupied territories.

Until Arafat learns that his Israeli-armed forces must take charge then nothing will happen.

Oh dear you really are out of touch aren&#39;t you. The IDF even destroyed all the infrastructure built by the EU to help govern the PLO admin areas. You certainly don&#39;t supply them with any help of any note, or do you mean "Isreali armed" as in the ammunition you keep sending their way free of charge?

If England and France can have true peace and England and the US can have real peace then it&#39;ll happen there too. One day.&nbsp;

Amen, now instead of attempting to defend the indefensible why don&#39;t you help with a solution? If you have the vote, don&#39;t vote for people complicit in mass murder (like Sharon) and instead vote for people willing to work for peace.

I don&#39;t know why I bother to try and educate you.

Educate me? You&#39;d have difficulty educating a kindergarten class, no offence.

post from sites with biased sources, ignore that fact and say that you&#39;ve never heard of them (hint: if you read something, look up the sources&#33

I do know my sources, you have yet to find them. You have yet to post a link to the authors, or even mention the name. Not sure why you are pushing this angle when you are so manifestly wrong

you state that all Arab states have recognized Israel (boy I&#39;d love a link to that)

Ok this is the communique released by the Arab League, and just for comfirmation for you, here is a supporting link for you. Check out the url of that one, going to call that page biased against Isreal too?

I guess the US and UK and the rest of the world are apartheid too

Hmm conclusive proof you don&#39;t even read other people&#39;s posts. Did you miss the part where I showed the definition of apartheid? It is not based solely on voting rights or a % representation in parliament

Palestinian kids sent to the front line are 17-18? Funny, that not what the Mothers of Tulkarm say. But if true, why call them children?

And again, you didn&#39;t bother to actually read my post. I said 17-18 is fine for fighting on the front line, as the IDF are the same age. I then said under that is not a good thing, but it is a recognised fact of life in resistance movements the world over including the French, Polish and others in WW2. I&#39;d prefer it didn&#39;t happen, but in desperate times resistance movements do desperate things. You see that is the difference between you and the palestinians, they are the agreived party and no amount of reference to the Holocaust will hide your guilt.

Please post a link to say that 4500 dead. I&#39;d like to see that.

Btselem.org keeps an up to date list. Note that Btselem is an Isreali group.

Insulting gentiles? You&#39;ll notice that it&#39;s your side that has insulted religions. kosher crack whore

I don&#39;t recall calling you that, yet you insult me.

we have been severely brainwashed by google, CNN and other credible sources

Google is not a credible source. It is a gateway to a virtual library that contains everything from absolute truth to absolute lies.

no one would love to harm Israel more than the Israeli media and that&#39;s a fact

Yep, that media hates you more than the people who&#39;s homes you demolish and children you kill.

one of the most anti Israeli media is Israel&#39;s

Get a grip, I think Libya&#39;s media is probably more anti Isreali than yours is. Along with a whole lot of other media sources.

censored Israeli media ROFL&nbsp; and hearing that from a BBC viewer, that&#39;s a killer&nbsp;

You don&#39;t seem to be seeing all the children being killed, so I can only assume it is censored from your tv&#39;s like it is in the US. Btw, Channel 4 News viewer, not BBC

if we gave up our territories&nbsp; the situation would change and regardless of win or lose, a war would take a bigger toll on Israel .. FFS such simple logic escapes you

I see, so your nukes are hand thrown then are they? Along with all your other missiles? They must be if a small series of hills suddenly renders them useless.

we were the ones who always had a settlement here and the Arabs were the nomads you tool, Arab immigrates only came here after the Zionists started developing the country in the late 19th century

Nomads? You are borderline racist. There were civilisations in that area with important cities for millenia. It has been one of the most contested chunks of several empires for centuries. Please do some research on where you appear to live. I suggest starting with Byzantine and Ottoman Empires.

&nbsp; Israel didn&#39;t need to blackmail the US because they were already helping, i mean your lies don&#39;t even make any sense, what&#39;s up with that? and Israel has never even admitted to having nukes, much less state they&#39;d use it as first strike&nbsp; ans it&#39;s funny how you know what Dayan wanted to do, really.. you must be a great telepath

I&#39;m not a telepath, it&#39;s just that the documents are in the open. Here is a link covering this story from that bastion of anti semitism - the USAF.

even if Israel used the nukes at that time.. it was only after the Egyptians and Syrians were well in the midst of their combined attack (that went pretty well and was close to success, success meaning destroying Israel).. so how would that be pre-emptive, genius

Pre-emptive as in first use of nuclear weapons. No other nation has said they would use nukes first, with the recent exception of the US. MAD was all about not using yours because the enemy would use his. No one apart from Isreal and the current US admin is stupid enough to want to use nukes in a conventional war.

your government and therefore the vast majority of the UK population does consider using nukes

Wrong on two counts. First, a govt is not usually of the same opinion as the majority of the population. Look at both the US and the UK for examples of that. Secondly, most of the the UK population does not want nukes in our country and neither does most of Blairs party. A high % of the Labour party were/are members of CND.

otherwise you wouldn&#39;t have them

We have them a) because in the 50&#39;s it was a matter of misguided national pride B) no prime minister have ever wanted to get rid of them. Note that&#39;s the PM, not the population (or even the cabinet).

we&#39;ve seen the UN and it&#39;s troops (who allowed the kidnapping of 3 of our soldiers in front of their eyes and then withheld information from us).&nbsp;

And the IDF has slaughtered 1000&#39;s of people in front of international observers and the UN (when they are allowed access at all). Hmm, 3 vs 1000&#39;s. Looks like the UN must favour you by a factor of several 1000 to 1 if we use your logic.

regarding bombing of Dublin, well obviously no. you haven&#39;t been listening to what Ive been saying&nbsp;

I understand exactly, you are avoiding the point. You drop missiles into heavily populated areas to kill one or two terrorists, but you are saying the UK would have been wrong to do the same to Dublin? Hypocrisy.

what are these other mysterious wars you mention?

Are you even aware of the country of Lebanon? You have invaded it several times, most notably in the early 80&#39;s when Sharon was sacked as Defence Minister for complicity in the deaths of 1000&#39;s of civilians in two refugee camps. Why am I having to tell you your own history?

just keep in mind that Israel has NEVER been on the offensive initially and always retaliated for it&#39;s own safety. anything beyond that is complete bull&nbsp;

I repeat, should the UK have invaded Eire because a few rockets were fired into NI? Please don&#39;t avoid the question yet again.

if you understood THERE&#39;S NO SUCH THING AS THE PALESTINIAN ENTITY, they never had a country and they have always been refugees and immigrants from different of Arab states,

Palestine (or Filastin as it was known) has been around since 638AD when the Muslim faith took control of the area. Before that it was known to the Byzantines, Greeks, Persians and Egyptians. Are you seriously trying to deny the whole swathe of recorded history in the area? People have lived there since recorded time began pretty much, and their descendents still live there today.

what they have done, however, is run from the land after being promised by their Arab friends to get the land after the war was over and Israel destroyed.&nbsp;

Run from what land? What on earth are you talking about here? The only land they have left is that which jewish isreali&#39;s live on now.

so far Israel has been treating them the best, far better than Lebanon and and Egypt who butchered them by the tens of thousands

Lebanon and Egypt butchered them by the tens of thousands? Source please? Or are you referring to some bygone age in history? What we do know for sure though is that the IDF kills them to this day, and that your PM was found guilty by Isreal of complicity in the deaths of 1000&#39;s in Lebanon. No answer to the water rights and land rights questions then? You avoid addressing anything you find counter to your pre determined beliefs.

the only purpose of it&#39;s existence, as written in it&#39;s official decleration, is to add another front (political) to the war upon israel in the ultimate purpose of all arab states to destroy

See my link above about the Arab League recognising Isreal if Isreal also complies with 242. Arafat wanted to attend that meeting btw to add his voice to the debate, but was barred by the Isreali&#39;s from taking part. The Isreali&#39;s refuse to let him leave Ramallah and block his communications to the outside world including to govts such as the UK. Arafat, just to remind you, is the democratically elected leader of the palestinians.

Israel never offered the Palestinians a country? besides what putty said, what about camp David where Barak offered 98% of the so called "territories" to Arafat and he declined ?

Ah Barak, was waiting for that one. He offered a territory crisscrossed with Isreali settlements and secure routes held by the IDF, with the water access predominatly in the Isreali areas. He also knew he was about to be voted out of office a week later and that the agreement would never pass the Knesset or his cabinet (or indeed ever be put to the vote). A week or two later he was gone. Of course he also never addressed the right of return either, a claim subsequently dropped by the Arab League in it&#39;s communique.

and regarding the "occupation" - like putty said, Israel has immediately offered the entire liberated land to Egypt (Gaza strip) and to Jordan (Judea and Samaria) after the occupation who both declined&nbsp;

Isreal did not offer all the occupied land back and crucially refused to allow palestinians thrown off their own land to return.

they didn&#39;t want the Palestinians, they knew just how great the Palestinians were

If the other arab countries accepted all the refugee&#39;s that Isreal has created it would a) overburden their economies B) legitimise the Isreali aggression. Are you saying that Hitler was quite right to deal with the Jews as he did because other countries did not accept them as refugee&#39;s?

Palestinian tanks ?&#33;?&#33; what are you talking about ?? can your logic be that bad or was that some sort of joke?

You mentioned the wall couldn&#39;t keep out tanks. I asked where those palestinian tanks were. I assume you were either joking or just plain ignorant.

I&#39;m talking about Syrian and Egyptian tanks that&#39;d go through the "Palestinian" land without any resistance

What would they resist them with? Why should they resist an army that is fighting the occupier of their land? Did the French resist the allies at Normandy?

Regardless, this is a red herring as we are dealing with the Palestinians not the Egyptians or Syrians.

and prey tell, what would you have us do if the nice little Palestinian country were to start arming itself with tanks, airplanes and missiles ?

What should the UK do if Eire starts buying more tanks? What should the US do if Mexico buys some more tanks? What a country does for it&#39;s own defence in it&#39;s own lands is it&#39;s own perogative. It&#39;s none of your damn business what a palestinian state does until it invades. Then you can obliterate it with your Made in the USA army.

it&#39;s obvious a Palestinian country would be a terror country, possibly owned by Syria like Lebanon, do we want them to have the strategical advantage
as well ? well obviously you do, forget it

It&#39;s obvious? Who&#39;s psychic now? Isreal is owned by the US, so obviously foreign ownership isn&#39;t a problem. If you doubt that statement, look into your budget.

&nbsp; have actually addressed the so called human shield civilian bombing etc issues , and your failure to accept facts stands still. putty addressed the legal issues, again, reality -1, you - 0

You addressed nothing. Why is it right for you to bomb palestinian civilian areas, but it would be wrong for the UK to bomb Eire? How is using civilians as human shields by the IDF ok, but palestinians hiding among their own population as part of a popular resistance wrong?

&nbsp; like putty said, the only side that has brought up religion and ethnicity is yours.

You are the ones calling us anti semitic. Such an irony that Isreal is the most anti semitic state in the world since palestinians are semites. Or do you prefer to hang onto the definition a fascist gave the word? Doesn&#39;t matter really, neither he nor you have the power to change language.

your true nature is only becoming more and more apparent

What nature is that? Someone who can pierce your lies and deceptions and render you unable to conduct a rational debate? Aww shucks

specific houses are demolished so they would not serve as terrorist outposts

The IDF targets the homes of relatives of suicide bombers in direct contravention of the Geneva Conventions. It also demolishes homes to make room for jews, and just to harass palestinians (such as the recent crop destructions).

&nbsp; I hope I don&#39;t need to remind you under which circumstances this country was established, why it&#39;s called "the land of the Jews" and why it&#39;s important to preserve a Jewish majority resulting inevitably in unfair rules in that regard.

So you admit apartheid finally. It&#39;s good to be honest. So since you got "the land of the jews", where is the "land of the palestinians" that the UN also decreed at the same time? Come to that, where is "the land of the Roma"? As a % of population, more of us were wiped out than jews yet we are still the subject of pograms. I told you the Holocaust was not a solely Jewish tragedy.

did you know the vast majority of Palestinians support terrorism&nbsp;

To drive the IDF out of their land. That is called resistance.

go out to the streets dancing after every terrorist attack (including the 9/11) ?

So you know that film was taken on 9/11 do you? The one on Fox/Cnn etc. It was apparently actually from a religious festival some time earlier. Of course some palestinians did support the attacks on the US - because the army that kills them daily has Made in US stamped on it.

&nbsp; Israeli Muslim Arabs - did you know that EVERY SINGLE terrorist attack was due to the help of an Israeli Muslim Arab ?

Utter rubbish. Mortar attacks need no help from anyone in Isreal as they are fired from outside Isreal. Suicide bombers get through due to faked papers, lax security, any number of things. I can only recall a few arab Isreali&#39;s being prosecuted for aiding specific terrorist attacks, so please enlighten us with a breakdown of who, what, and where for all these people.

we have all seen how the UK behaved when they were here&nbsp;

So if the UK did it over 80 years ago it&#39;s ok? That mean Egypt can build some gas chambers and copy how Hitler behaved only 60 years ago?

&nbsp; I fully understand the way the UK behaved when they were here and you would never hear me criticize them

Yes we know, due to your racism and fascist leanings.

why the massive interest in Israel? the Russians are doing far worse with the Chechen&#39;s (somehow i think the Russians don&#39;t really need that territory) and so are the Chinese in Tibet. there are other countless examples in the world.

Because we don&#39;t get lots of Russians and Chinese in here saying how wonderful and compassionate their countries are. Zionists refuse to acknowledge the evil that Isreal does and paint an utterly fictious picture of the region so some of us have fun correcting you and watching you squirm.

The PLO was founded in 1964, 3 years before stepped foot inside the West Bank/Gaza

But 16 years after the palestinians didn&#39;t get the state the UN granted them.

The stated goal of Hamas is to continue until Israel is no more

Know why Hamas is so popular? It funds food and education for people, something the IDF-crippled PLO cannot do. Refer to my point earlier about the linkage between occupation, resistance and terrorist movements.

As already stated, Israel offered return of the territories in 1967 and was flat out rejected. Again, see Khartoum Conference.

Arab League, cited earlier.

This is what EBP told me before his departure and name change to Leftism or 1234 or both

I have no idea who this EBP is, but I am sure they would be gratified to know that you still harp on about him/her after all this time. I am not that perosn, and your attempts to confine certain opinions to certain people is just an attempt at denial of how widespread those views are.

[putty]

It is one of the peculiar aspects of Isreali politics that the people always say they want peace and are prepared to sacrifice land for it, but they then elect the leaders least likely to do it. When a leader with a chance to further that policy is finally elected, jewish extremists assasinate him.

The Israeli public elected Barak who offered the Palestinians enough to get a final settlement. Before you start blabbering about canotons, go read about the Taba agreement that Arafat claimed was a humiliation, only to say 18 months later say "I am prepared to accept it, absolutely".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...741842,00.html

Evidently, Barak&#39;s offer was acceptable once it was no longer on the table.

In 1996, the Israeli public was set to elect the voice of the Left, Shimon Peres as he led right-wing Netanyahu by 20% just 2 months before the election. Hamas and Islamic Jihad bombed buses and restaurants non-stop for those last two months while Arafat sat on his ass and watched. Peres&#39; support dropped with each bombing until Netanyahu pulled out a victory by less than 1%.

If only Arafat realized (cared) how much he affects Israeli elections.

When a leader with a chance to further that policy is finally elected, jewish extremists assasinate him.

Israel hardly has a patent on PM assasinations. Anwar Sadat was killed by his own troops after he made peace with Israel and got back the entire Sinai.

Oh dear you really are out of touch aren&#39;t you. The IDF even destroyed all the infrastructure built by the EU to help govern the PLO admin areas. You certainly don&#39;t supply them with any help of any note, or do you mean "Isreali armed" as in the ammunition you keep sending their way free of charge?

Read the Oslo Accord. Israel supplied the Palestnian police force with 20 000 rifles to use in order to provide order and security to the areas that Israel departed from.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/salahmusa1.html (A Palestinian activists words)

When one of the high ranking Fatah leaders was in Canada 4 years ago, he made a statement that Palestinians now have 20,000 rifles instead of 100 during the first Intifada. Wrongly implying, in case of another uprising or Israeli aggression the Palestinians were in better shape to resist due to Oslo.

Israel did not start targetting the PA police infrastructure until a full year had passed in the current intifadah. That&#39;s a hell of a lot of time from 1993. You&#39;ll also notice the Btselem stats for number dead jump in 2002 once Palestinian police became neck-deep into the attacks.

In addition...

Oslo Accord, Chapter 2, Article XIV:

4. Except for the arms, ammunition and equipment of the Palestinian Police described in Annex I, and those of the Israeli military forces, no organization, group or individual in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip shall manufacture, sell, acquire, possess, import or otherwise introduce into the West Bank or the Gaza Strip any firearms, ammunition, weapons, explosives, gunpowder or any related equipment, unless otherwise provided for in Annex I.

Article XV:

1. Both sides shall take all measures necessary in order to prevent acts of terrorism, crime and hostilities directed against each other, against individuals falling under the other&#39;s authority and against their property, and shall take legal measures against offenders.

In fact, 1994-1996 were particularly bad years in terms of suicide bombs.


Contrast this with the Baruch Goldstein terrorist attack on Muslims. In March 1994, the Israeli cabinet immediately declared Kahane Chai and Kach "terrorist organizations" and made them illegal.

http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/kach.htm

We&#39;re still waiting for Arafat to declare Hamas or Islamic Jihad or PLFP or any other terrorist group "illegal".

If you have the vote, don&#39;t vote for people complicit in mass murder (like Sharon) and instead vote for people willing to work for peace.

The only reason that Sharon was elected is the same reason that Netanyahu was elected. Palestinians always seem to step up the bombings when Israelis are given a choice between the Left and Right wing leader.

Barak made a great offer at Taba, one that Arafat later said that he&#39;d be glad to accept. When it was rejected and Arafat had already started his planned war the Israeli public went hard-line. Just as any nation does when it&#39;s faced with struggle.

And if you don&#39;t believe that Arafat planned the intifadah, listen to his Communications Minister, Imad Al-Faluji, who is very open about it.

"Whoever thinks that the Intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon’s visit to the Al-Aqsa Mosque, is wrong, even if this visit was the straw that broke the back of the Palestinian people. This Intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat’s return from the Camp David negotiations, where he turned the table upside down on President Clinton. [Arafat] remained steadfast and challenged [Clinton]. He rejected the American terms and he did it in the heart of the US...

The PA instructed the political forces and factions to run all matters of the Intifada..."

I do know my sources, you have yet to find them. You have yet to post a link to the authors, or even mention the name. Not sure why you are pushing this angle when you are so manifestly wrong

Um, hello?

Your water article was written by this guy at this site:

http://desip.igc.org/TheftOfWater.html

You say that he referenced UN documents for his facts. I pointed out that he lists his sources as:

Sharif Elmusa
MEI (a site that hosts opinion articles)
The Journal of Palestine Studies
a book entitled "Taking Sides: America&#39;s Secret Relations with a Militant Israel"
Hussein Amery, a Palestinian activist

If those are your source&#39;s sources, you&#39;ve got a problem.

Ok this is the communique released by the Arab League,&nbsp;

This offer by the Arab League goes further than UN 242. It calls for return of "all the territories". 242 does not.

Again, your quote "The arab states however have all recognised Isreals right to exist" is not true. It has been offered as part of this agreement and has always been the basis of all negotiations. It has not occured, contrary to whatever you say.

It is not based solely on voting rights or a % representation in parliament

You are the one that claimed that there is some sort of racism because the % of Arab parliamentary members is only half the % of Israeli citizenship.

Apartheid:

1) An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites.
2) A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.
3) The condition of being separated from others; segregation.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=apartheid

When you mention apartheid, people think South Africa. It&#39;s even the most common definition in dictionaries. If you mean it in reference to #2 or #3, it&#39;s a pretty damn broad definition and I guarantee you that the US, UK, and pretty much every country in the world is guilty of apartheid.

And again, you didn&#39;t bother to actually read my post. I said 17-18 is fine for fighting on the front line

Oh yes, I did read that. The problem is that you didn&#39;t address my point. It&#39;s children that the PA bring to the front lines, while militants fire over their heeads. Not 17 & 18 year olds. Again, ask The Mothers of Tulkarm.

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem:

“The younger the martyr, the greater and the more I respect him”Al-Ahram Al-Arabi, Oct. 28

October 31, 2000 AP report:

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat on Tuesday called for renewed resistance by young activists, "these children who throw the stones to defend Jerusalem, the Muslims and the holy places."

In a 2000 Btselem report, here&#39;s what foriegn journalists saw going on:

Suddenly a blue commercial vehicle appeared and stopped around 20 meters away from us, some 30 meters from young Palestinians who were at the front of the demonstration. Three Palestinians, 20 to 30-years-old, were inside. They called to the children, gave orders, and distributed Molotov cocktails. I asked my photographer to film it. One of the children noticed, shouted out a warning, and within 15 seconds we were surrounded. The vehicle drove ahead 20 meters and stopped. The three men inside ran to the back and snatched the camera from the photographer. One of them shouted, "Kill, kill."

In October 2000, UNICEF urged the PA to stop

BTW, Israelis enter the army at 18, not 17. Keep your facts straights.

they are the agreived party and no amount of reference to the Holocaust will hide your guilt.

Excuse me, but your the one who likened the Palestinian towns to WWII ghettos, either in this thread or the other.

Btselem.org keeps an up to date list. Note that Btselem is an Isreali
group.

Yeah, I kinda figured that you were lying about 4500 Palestinian and 480 Israelis dead. That&#39;s why I asked.

You used Btselem&#39;s figure for Israeli civilians only but their number for TOTAL Palestinians killed. The problem with Btselem&#39;s numbers are that they categorize any non-uniformed person killed as civilian. The vast majority of Palestinian combatants are not uniformed.

Anyways, Btselems latest numbers are:

Inside the territories: 2300 Palestinians (militants & civilians) and 400 Israelis (soldiers & civilians).

Inside Israel:

48 Palestinians and 450 Israelis.

I&#39;m not a telepath, it&#39;s just that the documents are in the open. Here is a link covering this story from that bastion of anti semitism - the USAF.

Your article does not state that Dayan wanted to use nuclear arms. It says that he armed weapons and put the army on nuclear alert. Do you find it incomprehensible that a country in the midst of war against 5 other countries would arm their weapons?

Whatever. Even during the 1st Gulf war, Israel stated that the only way WMD would be used against Iraq was if Scuds contained WMD themselves.

And regarding your USAF source, this is sitting there right at the top:

The views expressed in this publication are those solely of the author and are not a statement of official policy or position of the U.S. Government, the Department of Defense, the U.S. Army, or the USAF Counterproliferation Center.

I believe that he&#39;s referring to Jordan and Lebanon. Jordan killed up to 30 000 Palestinians in one month in 1970, but of course there was no covenant to destroy Jordan and no UN resolution condemning Jordan.

WRT Lebanon, you&#39;ll recall that although Sharon was found to be indirectly responsible (he should&#39;ve known better), it was the Lebanese Christians who were responsible for Sabra and Shatilla.

See my link above about the Arab League recognising Isreal if Isreal also complies with 242.

Wrong. See above.

Ah Barak, was waiting for that one. He offered a territory crisscrossed with Isreali settlements and secure routes held by the IDF, with the water access predominatly in the Isreali areas.

Wrong. See Taba. See Arafat&#39;s statement 18 months later that he&#39;d accept it then.

Taba map:

http://www.fmep.org/maps/2001/taba.jpg

Isreal did not offer all the occupied land back and crucially refused to allow palestinians thrown off their own land to return.

It is impossible to know how many and which ones were kicked out and which left on their own in order to allow for conquering Arab armies. Please don&#39;t tell me that you&#39;re about to deny that. Family reunification is reasonable and will happen.

Up to 800,000 Jews were kicked out of fled from Arab countries around the same time. There is no going back for them.

If the other arab countries accepted all the refugee&#39;s that Isreal has created it would a) overburden their economies B) legitimise the Isreali aggression.

Sigh.

a) the same for Israel. It would double their population.

B) Again, see the UN&#39;s Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone. Egypt blocked Israeli access to oil and ordered the UN out of peacekeeping buffer zone. Egypt signed a defense agreement with Jordan. You bet Israel would strike first.

Israel, however, did not strike first against Jordan and even told Hussein that they will not open that front if Jordan sayed out. Jordan struck first and created the occupied territory problem. If Jordan had not struck first, the West Bank would be a Palestinian state.

So since you got "the land of the jews", where is the "land of the palestinians" that the UN also decreed at the same time?

It was in their hand, but 5 Arab countries decided to try and take the whole pie instead. They lost. Nothing prevented a Palestinian country being created in the West Bank from 1948-1967, though. Why wasn&#39;t it?

So you know that film was taken on 9/11 do you? The one on Fox/Cnn etc. It was apparently actually from a religious festival some time earlier.

This is turning into a theme, but wrong again.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

The person who started that rumour was a Brazilian university student who posted it on... guess where... indymedia&#33; Of course, it spread like wildfire among those who believe any anti-Israel junk that is spewed. I&#39;m not surprised that you believed it too.

me: The PLO was founded in 1964, 3 years before stepped foot inside the West Bank/Gaza

you: But 16 years after the palestinians didn&#39;t get the state the UN granted them.

So why name Israel as the occupying force and not Jordan, who were occupying the West Bank or Egypt, who were occupying Gaza?

You know, this is silly. Neither will convince the other. Do I believe that Israel is 100% correct? No. But put in the situation in which it finds itself, I think it&#39;s done about as expected. Israelis, contrary to what you might think are not inherently evil and neither are Palestinians.

As someone else has posted, UK troops have shot & killed a number of civilian protesters in Iraq. Blameless? No. Understandable under the circumstances? Yes. As everyone knows, US troops are guilty of the same. Now, add in dozens of suicide bombs in US cities and a highly organized terrorist infrastructure (Iraq&#39;s is pretty disorganized these days) and you&#39;d see a hell of a lot more civiians getting killed. Already, more Iraqi civilians have been killed in the past year than Palestinians in the 3 years. So if Israel is targetting civilians, what the hell are Americans doing? Taking better aim?

You can keep going with this but I just don&#39;t have the time. When you want to discuss the real issues and perhaps find common ground, lemme know.

Sorry venom, for answering some his replies to your posts.