Participation Level (loss Of)

[Rhydian66]

:blink: Could anybody tell me why downloading 1 Simpsons episode has just cost me over 65 PL points? I'm sharing about 1.3Gb of music, video and stuff, have registered, have unlimited bandwidth for uploads set an' EVERYTHING. :blink:

[El_Jefe]

It's because during the time of the download you exceded the dl/ul ratio required to maintain your participation level at the same level. Not a big deal, just pause your downloads until your uploads bring you participation level back up.

[Rhydian66]

Cheers. Nice Avatar by the way. B)

[deckard]

Actually, I think that this 'participation level' thing is a straw man. It's a good idea, rating value received/requested by bandwidth, but I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference, unless you're hot to get the thing right away. Hardly anyone who uploads from me has anything more than a '0' rating, and I usually hover between 30-10 myself. There is a cheat program to get around it, but I don't use it because the whole protocol seems trivial anyway. And it doesn't matter how much you share, rather how popular it is. I share close to 40 Gb of Mp3, Avi and Mpeg, and share 20 slots. It is very rarely full. There's a little porn, no hiphop and no rap...The Guru and Deity guys that get that way honestly are doing that by trading pornography. That stuff will raise your rating way quick. (I know this because my friend, a porno hound, bounds up to Guru or better nightly.) Not that I disapprove of pornography per se or even de facto but you must admit that it's a little discouraging to see Beethoven and Bach take a back ride to that crap. I'm much happier to see someone upload Stravinsky's Firebird, or Nirvana, or even a Bugs Bunny cartoon than the 'Debbie Sucks Dallas'. Though that happens much more frequently. OK, I have it, don't point it out.

By the way, where do I set my Avatar and signature around here? I'm new.

[El_Jefe]

@deckard

Make sure you're logged in, click on your nick in a given post. Your profile should come up with an option to edit it at the top.

Yeah, you're right about porn being popular, but I find that if you have some current flicks in your folder, you don't have a problem with people wanting to upload from you.

[El_Jefe]

Sorry, you can also just click My Controls, at the top of the page under the banner

[deckard]

Cool! Thanks, El Jefe!

I do the shuffle thing, i.e. while trying to share as much as I can (and I consider the Mp3 thing the most important component, and that always stays on drive and never goes away) I am constantly burning files to CD then deleting then uploading new ones. But even so, although I have uploaded about 60 movies in the past six weeks since I got cable, no one, and I mean no one has uploaded any vid from me. I keep them on for a long time...and I always keep a good stock of ten or so on hand. Plus sundry shorts (cartoons, monty python episodes and sketches, aeon flux & so forth.) Plus some complete miniseries I would have thought popular, like Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy and Dune 2000 and Band Of Brothers. My Game exe files are not very extensive right now but I have a few to share. (tho several dozens in archive) Nothing real hot on the HD shared files though.

But my Mp3s are extensive and varied and it was this that I most wished to share when I got broadband. And I wonder why this isn't happening? & your point is well taken, the things I've been after are not the current things...the hottest movie I have is, ummm..Ice Age, maybe? But currently on my board as well are Memento, Hamburger Hill, Four Rooms, Sword In The Stone, The Sixth Sense, The Road Warrior, the entire Band of Brothers miniseries, all six episodes of The HitchHiker's GuideTo The galaxy, plus various and sundry WB and MGM cartoons and other little 70 Mb stuff.

I've got all this stuff, and no one is downloading it. Meanwhile, I'm uploading movies like crazy, and getting about one a day, sometimes more. SO -- I'm not going to bitch about ratings or leeches or anything. Things seem to be just fine.

I just wish there were more ULs going on. (sniff) :huh:

[deckard]

Oops! Some very serious vocabulary gaffes there -- In many places I said 'Upload' when I meant 'download'. Wars have been started for lesser understandings. :lol:

[deckard]

Also, El Jefe, I agree. Your Avatar is great. And Hilarious.

[El_Jefe]

I can't really think of a reason why nobody would be interested in some of those files. But, two things to check are to make sharing is turned on in options menu, and if you have a firewall, make sure it's not blocking the ports that Kazaa uses.

[mobboss01]

Nothing has dissapointed me more than climbing all the way to supreme being, and I regularly share, but then I dl one song, and poof, back down 65 participation points. I feel like I am in Atlantic City gambleing away my dollars. Down with the participation level, it driving me mad. :angry:

[mobboss01]

yeah el, cool avantar. looks like you morphed the turkey in the free screensaver. B)

[deckard]

The exchange rate doesn't seem to be quite fair, does it? And I exaggerated...people are uploading from me, but only the Mp3s and also the few porn vids that I have, so my settings must be OK...double checked them all the same. 20 slots and unlimited bandwidth set for uploads. All the proper folders checkmarked for sharing.

I am supposing that there may be a widespread reticence among users to even try to DL a 700 Mb file, particularly among those on 56K modem.

So this is a message in a bottle. Go ahead and do it! I won't cut you off, even if the status line says it will take six months or so...

I also apologize for the very sloppy writing in those last few posts. Redundancies, inaccurate vocabulary...not the kind of style I prefer to maintain.

[deckard]

Plus, no firewall here. Even if someone wanted to hack into my poor little pc they wouldn't find anything more valuable than the stuff I already share freely. No credit card information or anything like that.

I entertain no paranoid fantasies about El Qaeda terrorists :ph34r: attempting the overthrow of Western Civilization by screwing with this computer. Hell, I'd just buy another one. Probably bigger and faster and cheaper than this one. :lol:

[El_Jefe]

If you have a always on broadband connection, I'd suggest you get a firewall app. You can get good free ones like ZoneAlarm. It not only protects your pc from outside influences, but you'd be surprised at the amount of spyware and other stuff you can accumulate. A good firewall will also prevent those applications from sending info out.
I still can't figure why you'd have a problem with people d/l from you. I share mainly movie dvd-rips ( so 700 MB or higher), and I never have a problem with my uploads. But then again, I don't have 20 upload slots either. I usually have between 5-10 set to upload, that way if broadband users connect to me, they can use more of my available bandwidth. But that's just a personal preference.

[deckard]

I run ad-aware pretty regularly. That stuff does sneak in every now and again, as it will when surfing the web. And I really trust Housecall, but I have McCaffee installed as well.

But you seem to be saying that a firewall wouldn't interfere with P2p? I guess what I'm saying is that I don't mind the risk (slight, I think) as long as it facilitates the Big File Trading Party.

Others have told me that 20 UL slots is excessive, but I figure that the opportunity to UL should equal my appetite for DL. Not that I often DL that much but I've done it.

Yeah, I'm perplexed as to why those big vid files aren't being uploaded. An experiment is in order. I'll rent and rip the hottest movie I can find and then see what happens...I've been meaning to start doing that anyway. (That's how I got more than half of my Mp3s...the public library and friends CDs)

[El_Jefe]

No, a firewall doesn't have to interfere with file sharing, just make sure that Kazaa lite has permission to access the net. It's usually a matter of configuring it properly, or in the case of some like ZoneAlarm, it's usually fool proof.

[random nut]

Originally posted by deckard@Nov 18 2002, 02:32 PM
(That's how I got more than half of my Mp3s...the public library and friends CDs)
Thank god for the public lib'ary!

[deckard]

Thanks for the tip, I'll try it! Although in my case the term 'foolproof' may seriously underestimate the determination of the fool in question...

[mobboss01]

...also run ad-aware often. I ran it yesterday, and was clean, but tonight I accumulated 20 spyware files that I'll get rid of now.

[FuNkY CaPrIcOrN]

Originally posted by random nut+Nov 18 2002, 09:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (random nut @ Nov 18 2002, 09:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--deckard@Nov 18 2002, 02:32 PM
(That's how I got more than half of my Mp3s...the public library and friends CDs)
Thank god for the public lib'ary![/b][/quote]
;) The public library has computers where you can download mp3s,man I have not been to the library in years,I need to check that out.What kind of connection do they have?

[El_Jefe]

The public library has computers where you can download mp3s,man I have not been to the library in years,I need to check that out.What kind of connection do they have?

And you can even check out porn! :lol:

[Guest]

Funky (can I call you by your first name?) It isn't the computers or their connections...you can borrow CDs and then do the rip at home! (They're particularly useful for classical stuff, but generally there is a good collection of jazz there too...even mainstream pop and rock) El Jefe, porn too? (But that is so widely and easy to acquire, it's not worth the trip downtown...)

[deckard]

Oops. Forgot to Log in. That was deckard at that last reply. Sorry, sorry.
Remember the determination of that Idiot... :blink: :D

[El_Jefe]

:rolleyes: I was just trying to encourage FC to visit a library :lol:

[deckard]

Do I need to emphasize that the determined idiot or fool is me? Hope no one thought that was a directed comment...

[.]

The point thing is a sham. I went from 100 points to 12 points just downloading one file. I had to download the same file 3 times because 2 of them were frauds. It looks like one of the persons may actually be selling the software. The program is Adobe Photoshop Elements v. 2. The words www.2bcalvi.com appear after the persons name. When you try to download the file it asks for a password which does not appear to be the serial no. If this person is selling Adobe's software without their consent Adobe should be notified. Its one thing to share files but selling them without the writers consent is completely different

[deckard]

Beg pardon? I didn't quite understand that last comment about selling downloaded files...

Of course that's way out of bounds. These files are shared between like minded and consenting individuals, and strictly never ever traded for profit!

I thought that was a given moral code, as commonly conceded as the stricture against incest or murder...

[Jaxo]

i think that they should base the participation level more on the amount of files you are sharing rather than what you download beacuse if you have a ton of stuff that you are sharing, why should you get a crap participation level?

[NikkiD]

Jaxo - if they base it on the amount of files that would be like punishing people that have smaller hard drives. It doesn't really matter how much you have - let's say you have 50gig of files shared, but only 10 upload slots available - no one can get to all of those files anyway. And if you open up more upload slots, the speed for each upload drops to almost nothing and you get everyone aborting and your level drops anyway. It does matter how popular the files you have are - if you keep a couple of current movies, tv shows or porn, yes I said it and I'm a chick, porn, your upload slots (wink wink, nudge nudge) will always be full anyway. For all that it matters, if you're sharing one file that everyone wants then you're helping the system along. I don't use the cheat, and my PL fluctuates between 50 and 500 all the time, and I only have about 20gig of files shared. So should I be punished because I'm only sharing 20gig of popular videos when someone else is sharing 500gig of obscure mp3's?

Nikki

[El_Jefe]

Originally posted by NikkiD@Dec 1 2002, 11:30 AM
Jaxo - if they base it on the amount of files that would be like punishing people that have smaller hard drives. It doesn't really matter how much you have - let's say you have 50gig of files shared, but only 10 upload slots available - no one can get to all of those files anyway. And if you open up more upload slots, the speed for each upload drops to almost nothing and you get everyone aborting and your level drops anyway. It does matter how popular the files you have are - if you keep a couple of current movies, tv shows or porn, yes I said it and I'm a chick, porn, your upload slots (wink wink, nudge nudge) will always be full anyway. For all that it matters, if you're sharing one file that everyone wants then you're helping the system along. I don't use the cheat, and my PL fluctuates between 50 and 500 all the time, and I only have about 20gig of files shared. So should I be punished because I'm only sharing 20gig of popular videos when someone else is sharing 500gig of obscure mp3's?

Nikki
Not only would basing it on number of files punish small HD owners, it would also allow any asshole with 10,000 zero byte files in their shared folder to get priority. Everybody, just listen to NikkiD and get yourself some porn :D your participation level will thank you for it. :D

[.]

Originally posted by deckard@Nov 30 2002, 07:33 AM
Beg pardon? I didn't quite understand that last comment about selling downloaded files...

Of course that's way out of bounds. These files are shared between like minded and consenting individuals, and strictly never ever traded for profit!

I thought that was a given moral code, as commonly conceded as the stricture against incest or murder...
I agree with you, thats the whole point. Something should be done maybe even notifying adobe about this person. I down loaded the file but when I went to install it the first thing that came up before it would start to install was a requirement of putting in a password. I tried the serial number but that wouldnt work. So I went to the web site listed (both the program and web site are in french) and sure enough it was someone selling software.

[.]

Originally posted by El_Jefe+Dec 1 2002, 08:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (El_Jefe @ Dec 1 2002, 08:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--NikkiD@Dec 1 2002, 11:30 AM
Jaxo - if they base it on the amount of files that would be like punishing people that have smaller hard drives. It doesn't really matter how much you have - let's say you have 50gig of files shared, but only 10 upload slots available - no one can get to all of those files anyway. And if you open up more upload slots, the speed for each upload drops to almost nothing and you get everyone aborting and your level drops anyway. It does matter how popular the files you have are - if you keep a couple of current movies, tv shows or porn, yes I said it and I'm a chick, porn, your upload slots (wink wink, nudge nudge) will always be full anyway. For all that it matters, if you're sharing one file that everyone wants then you're helping the system along. I don't use the cheat, and my PL fluctuates between 50 and 500 all the time, and I only have about 20gig of files shared. So should I be punished because I'm only sharing 20gig of popular videos when someone else is sharing 500gig of obscure mp3's?

Nikki
Not only would basing it on number of files punish small HD owners, it would also allow any asshole with 10,000 zero byte files in their shared folder to get priority. Everybody, just listen to NikkiD and get yourself some porn :D your participation level will thank you for it. :D[/b][/quote]
Anyone can get a lot of downloads simply by fraud. Some one could label their file pornography (or what ever word the perverts call it) and have a file containing the bible or an anti obsenity law or label a file cute chick and have a picture of an old man. People with modems and small harddrives simply can not compete with people with DSL, cable, T lines etc.

[NikkiD]

Originally posted by .@Dec 2 2002, 06:16 AM
Anyone can get a lot of downloads simply by fraud. Some one could label their file pornography (or what ever word the perverts call it) and have a file containing the bible or an anti obsenity law or label a file cute chick and have a picture of an old man. People with modems and small harddrives simply can not compete with people with DSL, cable, T lines etc.
That's what websites like this are for - to avoid wasting time downloading frauds. And yes, people with broadband do have an advantage, but that doesn't mean that someone with a 56K modem can't build a decent participation level, it just takes a little more patience and persistence. My aunt doesn't have a choice but to use dial-up and she can usually get the files she wants to download, she just has to wait a little longer. Most of us don't discriminate because of people's participation level, we usually check the files being shared. I don't care if someone's only sharing one or two files, at least their sharing. The people that drive me nuts are the ones that are downloading five files from me simultaneously and are not sharing - and I check multiple times to see if they are before I boot them. Most of the time I don't have the time to sit in front of the computer and monitor this, so they get their stuff anyway. As for Kazaa automatically "bumping" people with low PL's, well there really isn't anything we can do about that, is there?

And before you go labelling people as perverts, you should remember that just because someone has a different idea of what is entertaining than you do, it doesn't make them a pervert - I don't watch porn because I don't choose to, but I don't discriminate against those who do, so what does that make me? :angry:

Nikki

[Rhydian66]

How often do us guys have to tell you? Size isn't important, it's quality that counts! :P
Incidentally, do you check that other users are sharing by searching what's available from them? Probably a stupid question, but... :blink:

[NikkiD]

Originally posted by Rhydian66@Dec 3 2002, 12:01 AM
How often do us guys have to tell you? Size isn't important, it's quality that counts! :P
Incidentally, do you check that other users are sharing by searching what's available from them? Probably a stupid question, but... :blink:
Well said!!

Right click on the user and select Find More From Same User - it will show you what files they're sharing. Sometimes you have to do it several times before it shows you, I think it depends on whether they have any upload slots available at the time you search.

Nik

[Guest]

ok heres an idea, how about based on your hardrive space, an amount is preset for you to have, say if you have a 40gb drive then its 10gb, now lets say you are have 5 gb of that shared, why not get a participation level of 50 + a bonus if popele are downloading your files, this would not hurt small hard drive owners, all though now that i though of it , it wouldnt help poeple with huge drives, maybe for anything over 60gb the default would be 20gb?

[Barbarossa]

Originally posted by Guest@Dec 2 2002, 11:56 PM
ok heres an idea, how about based on your hardrive space, an amount is preset for you to have, say if you have a 40gb drive then its 10gb, now lets say you are have 5 gb of that shared, why not get a participation level of 50 + a bonus if popele are downloading your files, this would not hurt small hard drive owners, all though now that i though of it , it wouldnt help poeple with huge drives, maybe for anything over 60gb the default would be 20gb?
It's as good an idea as any I've heard! :)

[Switeck]

I'm not convinced that having people share MORE files is the answer -- except in the case of leeches who are sharing none or only 1 junk file and using some sort of cheat to get their PL high.

Search queries and replies still burn up some bandwidth PER file shared regardless of connection. So if a modem user is sharing just 10 really popular files, their connection could be flooded by search queries and replies tying up a large portion of their bandwidth. Cablemodem/DSL users can likewise suffer if they're using upload bandwidth set to unlimited, as Kazaa leaves NO bandwidth for maintaining connections that way -- which is why downloads may spontaneously disconnect...

[Barbarossa]

Originally posted by Switeck@Dec 3 2002, 05:53 PM

Search queries and replies still burn up some bandwidth PER file shared regardless of connection. So if a modem user is sharing just 10 really popular files, their connection could be flooded by search queries and replies tying up a large portion of their bandwidth. Cablemodem/DSL users can likewise suffer if they're using upload bandwidth set to unlimited, as Kazaa leaves NO bandwidth for maintaining connections that way -- which is why downloads may spontaneously disconnect...
Not so.

Unlike gnutella search queries on fastrack are handled by the supernodes, not the clients (or "servents" if you like). The kazaa client updates the supernode with a list of shared files at regular intervals, maybe once every 10 minutes or so.

The amount of search traffic on the network does not directly affect the bandwidth of each individual client.

[.]

Originally posted by Guest@Dec 3 2002, 12:56 AM
ok heres an idea, how about based on your hardrive space, an amount is preset for you to have, say if you have a 40gb drive then its 10gb, now lets say you are have 5 gb of that shared, why not get a participation level of 50 + a bonus if popele are downloading your files, this would not hurt small hard drive owners, all though now that i though of it , it wouldnt help poeple with huge drives, maybe for anything over 60gb the default would be 20gb?
I dont think the harddrive is as much as an issue as the type of connect. People who have modems can not compete with people with broadband etc. Some of the files take several days to download. Not only is download and upload slower with modems but it means people can not use their phones during that time. People with modems dont tend to leave their internet conntected when they are not on line because they need to use their phones whereas people with DSL are connected all the time

[deckard]

It's all about bandwidth, isn't it? And speed?

Listen to me: Can you say "Patience?"

I thought you could. Now say it again, children.

[Switeck]

Ok, the searches ARE done at the supernode level -- just like the searches are NOW done at the UltraPeer level on Gnutella.

The download requests are still handled by the clients/servants. They STILL directly request a file from you, and your connection either starts uploading to them, Remotely Queues them, or gives them a not found if you just removed it.

If you're sharing 1,000+ very popular files, your connection needs SOME download bandwidth to intercept all the incomming download requests and SOME upload bandwidth to reply back to them. How much, I don't know...

[Barbarossa]

Agreed. :)

So it looks like the answer is not fewer people sharing more files, but more people sharing fewer files.

That way the network will run like shit off a shovel!

[deckard]

Fr Chissake forgive my American naivete but can't we just get over this? Share what you can. If you have to be a desperado, who gives a f*** (I entered that censorship myself. Not sure why)

You won't bother me. I can bump down about a Gb a day, no problem. Whether anyone leeches or not. But it's really about bandwidth class, isn't it?

I would guess that most people using P2p have 56k or worse. And at 56k your chances of getting a 500Mb file are slim at best. I have no idea how long you would have to wait.

So cut 'em some slack, OK?

I gotta shower and go to the office. :(

[Barbarossa]

Originally posted by deckard@Dec 4 2002, 01:21 PM
I would guess that most people using P2p have 56k or worse. And at 56k your chances of getting a 500Mb file are slim at best. I have no idea how long you would have to wait.

Last time it took about 28 hours... :(