Where Is The Sense In
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)Posted by: Becka
Why are the American people so bothered by the fact that most of their history relies on someone else?
Posted by: hobbes
Originally posted by Becka@2 August 2003 - 01:27
Why are the American people so bothered by the fact that most of their history relies on someone else?
It all relates back to a banned member named Hypoluxa, maybe you could PM him and ask?
Posted by: clocker
Originally posted by Becka@1 August 2003 - 18:27
Why are the American people so bothered by the fact that most of their history relies on someone else?
So that's the root cause of my undefined sense of worthlessness and unease.
Thanks for the diagnosis.
BTW, why are Europeans so reluctant to admit that America has played a part in their history?
Posted by: kAb
Originally posted by clocker+1 August 2003 - 19:33--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 1 August 2003 - 19:33)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Becka@1 August 2003 - 18:27
Why are the American people so bothered by the fact that most of their history relies on someone else?
So that's the root cause of my undefined sense of worthlessness and unease.
Thanks for the diagnosis.
BTW, why are Europeans so reluctant to admit that America has played a part in their history? [/b][/quote]
Because the best army and navy in the world was beaten by some colonists.
Scary how it could happen again :unsure:
Why are Europeans so reluctant to admit that they were imperialists who damaged the world immensly for their urge for control?
Posted by: kAb
Originally posted by hobbes+1 August 2003 - 16:50--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 1 August 2003 - 16:50)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Becka@2 August 2003 - 01:27
Why are the American people so bothered by the fact that most of their history relies on someone else?
It all relates back to a banned member named Hypoluxa, maybe you could PM him and ask? [/b][/quote]
he wasn't banned, just put on probation... (sadly thats all)
Posted by: balamm
I have a question as well.
why did Neil__ find it neccesary to post this under a new account/name ??
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by clocker+2 August 2003 - 04:33--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 2 August 2003 - 04:33)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Becka@1 August 2003 - 18:27
Why are the American people so bothered by the fact that most of their history relies on someone else?
So that's the root cause of my undefined sense of worthlessness and unease.
Thanks for the diagnosis.
BTW, why are Europeans so reluctant to admit that America has played a part in their history? [/b][/quote]
You haven't been around long enough to have played a significant part.
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by balamm@2 August 2003 - 07:24
I have a question as well.
why did Neil__ find it neccesary to post this under a new account/name ??
spammer
Posted by: Lamsey
Heehee :lol:
Just saw this:
http://www.mcbriens.net/liam/img/heehee.jpg
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by Lamsey@2 August 2003 - 10:18
Heehee :lol:
Just saw this:
http://www.mcbriens.net/liam/img/heehee.jpg
:lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
OMG we are being Mod Spammed.
Posted by: Lamsey
:blink:
http://www.mcbriens.net/liam/img/damn.jpg
damn :">
Posted by: clocker
Originally posted by JPaul@2 August 2003 - 03:14
You haven't been around long enough to have played a significant part.
Well, I suppose that it's only been about 200 years or so that we've had a world class impact.
I can't wait till we're old and irrelevant.
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by clocker+2 August 2003 - 11:29--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 2 August 2003 - 11:29)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@2 August 2003 - 03:14
You haven't been around long enough to have played a significant part.
Well, I suppose that it's only been about 200 years or so that we've had a world class impact.
I can't wait till we're old and irrelevant. [/b][/quote]
It will certainly be a change from your current status of young and irrelevant.
You fall into the same trap as many (not all) of your countrymen. You equate big and wealthy with important.
When you start producing things which enhance the culture I will be impressed. Obviously I consider Kurt Vonnegut to be a German.
Posted by: thewizeard
Round about this stage somebody usually asks, "Shouldn't this be in the lounge."
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by nigel123@2 August 2003 - 11:36
Round about this stage somebody usually asks, "Shouldn't this be in the lounge."
No, that is done when the cogent argument ceases. Generally when you join in.
Good point, that would be now then.
Posted by: thewizeard
Originally posted by JPaul+2 August 2003 - 12:37--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 2 August 2003 - 12:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-nigel123@2 August 2003 - 11:36
Round about this stage somebody usually asks, "Shouldn't this be in the lounge."
No, that is done when the cogent argument ceases. Generally when you join in.
Good point, that would be now then.[/b][/quote]
Oh well, I supposed I asked for that.
1-0
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by nigel123+2 August 2003 - 11:49--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nigel123 @ 2 August 2003 - 11:49)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by JPaul@2 August 2003 - 12:37
<!--QuoteBegin-nigel123@2 August 2003 - 11:36
Round about this stage somebody usually asks, "Shouldn't this be in the lounge."
No, that is done when the cogent argument ceases. Generally when you join in.
Good point, that would be now then.
Oh well, I supposed I asked for that.
1-0 [/b][/quote]
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Top answer.
Posted by: clocker
Originally posted by JPaul+2 August 2003 - 04:35--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 2 August 2003 - 04:35)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by clocker@2 August 2003 - 11:29
<!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@2 August 2003 - 03:14
You haven't been around long enough to have played a significant part.
Well, I suppose that it's only been about 200 years or so that we've had a world class impact.
I can't wait till we're old and irrelevant.
It will certainly be a change from your current status of young and irrelevant.
You fall into the same trap as many (not all) of your countrymen. You equate big and wealthy with important.
When you start producing things which enhance the culture I will be impressed. Obviously I consider Kurt Vonnegut to be a German. [/b][/quote]
I guess I'll add delusional to my list of things to aspire to.
Like many of my countrymen, I do long for the grand old days when Scotland reigned supreme.
When was that?
Let me look it up.
Searching...
Searching...
Hmmm....apparently that was never.
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by clocker+2 August 2003 - 14:31--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 2 August 2003 - 14:31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by JPaul@2 August 2003 - 04:35
Originally posted by clocker@2 August 2003 - 11:29
<!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@2 August 2003 - 03:14
You haven't been around long enough to have played a significant part.
Well, I suppose that it's only been about 200 years or so that we've had a world class impact.
I can't wait till we're old and irrelevant.
It will certainly be a change from your current status of young and irrelevant.
You fall into the same trap as many (not all) of your countrymen. You equate big and wealthy with important.
When you start producing things which enhance the culture I will be impressed. Obviously I consider Kurt Vonnegut to be a German.
I guess I'll add delusional to my list of things to aspire to.
Like many of my countrymen, I do long for the grand old days when Scotland reigned supreme.
When was that?
Let me look it up.
Searching...
Searching...
Hmmm....apparently that was never.[/b][/quote]
Who said anything about reigning. This time you equate power with being important.
So big and rich, that makes you important, how American of you.
To quote what I said, perhaps you will do me the courtesy of reading it this time.
When you start producing things which enhance the culture I will be impressed.
Posted by: clocker
Originally posted by JPaul@2 August 2003 - 07:37
When you start producing things which enhance the culture I will be impressed.
Sorry, have a busy day planned being big, powerful and wealthy.
Impressing you ain't on the agenda.
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by clocker+2 August 2003 - 15:04--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 2 August 2003 - 15:04)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@2 August 2003 - 07:37
When you start producing things which enhance the culture I will be impressed.
Sorry, have a busy day planned being big, powerful and wealthy.
Impressing you ain't on the agenda. [/b][/quote]
Good news, you have met that objective.
Enjoy your conspicuous consumerism.
Posted by: HeavyMetalParkingLot
maybe one day we too can contribute our own, hitler, stalin, lenin, caligula, tepes, vatican, ect. to the world and then we will be revelant.
Posted by: J'Pol
Just a decent car would be okay.
Vatican ? is that a sectarian comment ?
ect ? What does that mean ?
Posted by: the_faceman
i don't think Scotland is all that great, but before you go putting us down, some of the biggest inventions and discoveries ever were made by Scots people.
Here's just a few:
Adhesive postage stamps
Anaesthetics
Antiseptics
Agricultural Reaping Machine
Bakelite
Latent Heat
Colloid Chemistry
Pneumatic Tyres
Decimal Point
Golf (lol!)
Iron Bridges
Logarithms
Mackintosh Raincoats
Macadamised roads (Tarmac)
Penicillin
Paraffin (marketed)
Hollow-pipe drainage
Television
Telephone
Thermos Flask
Steam Engine
Vacuum
Colour Photos
Steam Hammer
Radar.
Posted by: J'Pol
Me
Posted by: HeavyMetalParkingLot
Originally posted by JPaul@2 August 2003 - 14:25
Vatican ? is that a sectarian comment ?
ect ? What does that mean ?
just a comment on there current mission to rid the world of homosexuals
Vatican Post (http://www.vaticanpost.com/)
edited: added link
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by HeavyMetalParkingLot+2 August 2003 - 15:28--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (HeavyMetalParkingLot @ 2 August 2003 - 15:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@2 August 2003 - 14:25
Vatican ? is that a sectarian comment ?
ect ? What does that mean ?
just a comment on there current mission to rid the world of homosexuals
Vatican Post (http://www.vaticanpost.com/)
edited: added link [/b][/quote]
What do you expect.
The homosexual act is, according to the dogma of the Church, a sin.
It is only natural that they would oppose same sex "marriage".
Posted by: hobbes
It was Neil not Hypoluxa- God, I am soooo stupid. Neil was posting under his own name, quite liberally, last night so I was sure Hypo was trying to sneak back in. You must admit that the two do have a certain similarity in errr style of post.
Posted by: Neil__
Originally posted by Becka@2 August 2003 - 01:27
Why are the American people so bothered by the fact that most of their history relies on someone else?
Apart from their Military defeats/victories.
They'll be "remembered" by everyone.
We don't get much choice in the matter.
Like you said
Nowt else to boast about.
Neil
Posted by: thewizeard
Originally posted by balamm@2 August 2003 - 08:24
I have a question as well.
why did Neil__ find it neccesary to post this under a new account/name ??
Did you read this Neil?
Posted by: Neil__
Originally posted by nigel123+2 August 2003 - 17:34--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nigel123 @ 2 August 2003 - 17:34)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-balamm@2 August 2003 - 08:24
I have a question as well.
why did Neil__ find it neccesary to post this under a new account/name ??
Did you read this Neil? [/b][/quote]
I have now
Thank you nigel
but balamm has a grudge against me.
As I have mentioned before I have a Fiance and her name is Becka.
She registered last night.
But I understand why some people would be so irritated by me as to ask.
Neil
Edit : So balamm you're not that good a moderator after all?
Other minor edits
Posted by: hobbes
Becka,
Welcome to the forum.
Your fiancee, Neil, comes off a bit harsh at times.
Please give us your feminine perspective on the old chap, so we can understand him better.
As he has probably told you, you can use "My Controls" to create an avatar. Sure would be nice to see your smiling face there.
Again, welcome.
Posted by: Neil__
Becka's more into history than me and I reccomend you dont call her a feminist.
She'll have you for dinner..
But thanks from me.
She get's in soon so you might get a reply from her.
Neil
Posted by: J'Pol
Surely Fiancee is the female and fiance is the male.
Posted by: Neil__
Originally posted by JPaul@2 August 2003 - 18:41
Surely Fiancee is the female and fiance is the male.
That's weird.
Becka mentioned that about a week ago and I still picked the wrong one.
Thanks JPaul
Neil.
Posted by: j2k4
Excuse my lateness in entering this thread, I beg you, but I have never looked anyway but east at Europe.
Is somebody suffering an inferiority complex?
Or just accusing us of having a superiority complex?
I guess even our inferiority complex is superior, eh?
Read all about it in any newspaper-
This is getting so f**king tired.
BTW-Neil_-
I believe Hobbes attempted to elicit Becka's "feminine" POV, not her "feminist" view; a veritable chasm of difference, there-nor any reason to be upset, yes?
Posted by: balamm
Zardoz
Becka
Share Mad
Neil__
Marcus
And the rest of these? Cousins aunts and uncles?
Posted by: Neil__
Originally posted by balamm@2 August 2003 - 22:28
Zardoz
Becka
Share Mad*
Neil__
Marcus
And the rest of these? Cousins aunts and uncles?
But your point is a bitter one.
And you have nothing else.
And I dont know of what you speak.
I'm sorry if your such a bad LOSER.
Neil.
The only thing that matters is that Becka isn't me
And you are a total Wanker for letting me push your buttons
Neil.
Posted by: thewizeard
Originally posted by Neil__+2 August 2003 - 23:49--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Neil__ @ 2 August 2003 - 23:49)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-balamm@2 August 2003 - 22:28
Zardoz
Becka
Share Mad*
Neil__
Marcus
And the rest of these? Cousins aunts and uncles?
[/b][/quote]
What he means Neil that all these names are registerd under the same IP address.
Posted by: Neil__
So what.
still doesn't disprove that balamm has no decorum.
Neil.
They can't all be me as only three are from my household
I logged on as share mad just to test the rules when I was on supervision.
And Neil__ is me and my Fiancee is Becka.
The rest I don't know about because I've never heard of them.
Neil.
Please balamm abUSE your poewr on some less worthy target.
You've already proven that your no match for me.
Neil2
Posted by: J'Pol
Can I make a wee suggestion.
Either lock this, or send it to the lounge, it's just getting to be a tedious moan fest.
I would love to know how many people are involved in it, but that appears to be a mystery.
Neil's domestic arrangements, or his problems with a Mod, are hardly World Events.
Posted by: hobbes
Originally posted by j2k4@2 August 2003 - 21:05
I believe Hobbes attempted to elicit Becka's "feminine" POV, not her "feminist" view; a veritable chasm of difference, there-nor any reason to be upset, yes?
That's funny J2, I just sort of scratched my head at that comment and figured it might become apparent later.
The meaning between the two words is so divergent, that I didn't even connect one as a misinterpretation of the other.
Oh well, JPaul gets thanked for pointing out typos, and I get nothing after being threatened with being the main course at dinner. Just not fair!
Posted by: Becka
Do you think you got a bit off track here, I know you blokes need your pissing contests, but you were talking sense there for a while.
Anyway, I just wanted to get a perspective on what you thought, I don't think there is a superiority/inferiority problem here just a different view of what is important to a country.
Thanks hobbes for the welcome, and I think its a shame that this moderator takes his personal problems out on individuals, like one of you said, go whinge in the lounge.
Becka
xx
Posted by: Neil__
Thanks Becka
Like you said, a little perspective here.
There is a case for America, as a new country their full of history.
But your right.
A little perspective is here.
Britain "among others" has been conquered so many times it makes us steadfast and America has a time lag.
And unfortunately they seem to be trying to make up for it with media wars.
In that they aren't so different from us.
Neil
Posted by: J'Pol
I am reasonably confident that Beka and Neil are different people.
If for no other reason, English is quite obviously not a second language to Becka.
Neil I would love to respond to your last post. However it is little more than a collection of words, which have had the misfortune to all land in the same place.
If you could try to re-arrange them into sentences which express some form of view or opinion I would very much appreciate it.
Thanks in advance.
I remain as ever your humble and obedient servant.
Posted by: thewizeard
Hello Becka a very warm welcome, you should come and sit by our log-fire in the lounge sometime.Why are the American people so bothered by the fact that most of their history relies on someone else?
I don't believe the USA has any such problem myself!
Posted by: j2k4
For what it's worth, I googled the following (I hate to google!) relative to the "origin" of England:
When Egbert, King of the West-Saxons, in 829, had subjugated the other six Saxon kingdoms, he summoned a general council at Winchester, at which it was declared that henceforth Britain should be called England, its people Englishmen, and himself King of England. Originally the name was Englaland, the land of the Engles, or Angles, who came over from Sleswick, a province of Jutland. Engel (variously spelled), is an old Teutonic word, meaning "angel."
To the extent democracy reigns in England today, this was it's origin; democracy grew, or evolved, from this beginning.
Regardless of the inequities of slavery, democracy and individual freedom were founding principles of the United States, from the very beginning.
Yes, it did take a few centuries to sand off the rough edges; to bestow rights on women, slaves/blacks, etc., but we have finally got it right.
We did it in far fewer years than England.
All in all, I think we've travelled quite a distance in these relative few years.
How indelicate and insensitive of us to be proud of this accomplishment.
Shame on us.
Posted by: Everose
Originally posted by Becka@1 August 2003 - 20:27
Why are the American people so bothered by the fact that most of their history relies on someone else?
What on earth led you to believe we are?
If I am bothered by anything, it is someone who makes such a statement/question that assumes way too much and is not supported by fact. ;)
Welcome to the board, Becca
Neverose
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by j2k4@3 August 2003 - 01:17
Regardless of the inequities of slavery, democracy and individual freedom were founding principles of the United States, from the very beginning.
That is just preposterous. The six words before the comma make that which follows it nothing short of insulting.
I can accept specious, if pushed. However to write-off slavery is beyond the pale.
Have you no shame man. Sorry I forgot who I was speaking to.
Posted by: thewizeard
*cough* Do I appear now or is it still too early? *cough*
Posted by: J'Pol
Not quite yet, but j2 may be getting us there very soon.
Posted by: sampson
Thanks hobbes for the welcome, and I think its a shame that this moderator takes his personal problems out on individuals, like one of you said, go whinge in the lounge.
Only one post but already some strong views
Posted by: Rat Faced
When Egbert, King of the West-Saxons, in 829, had subjugated the other six Saxon kingdoms, he summoned a general council at Winchester, at which it was declared that henceforth Britain should be called England, its people Englishmen, and himself King of England. Originally the name was Englaland, the land of the Engles, or Angles, who came over from Sleswick, a province of Jutland. Engel (variously spelled), is an old Teutonic word, meaning "angel."
Thats an interesting observation, from an "English" perspective...(OK, Northumbrian :P)
However, although he is the first king to claim to be king of all England, he was never in fact, ever that which he claimed...(although he did think up the name of the nation ;) )
History of England (http://www.britannia.com/history/narsaxhist.html)
He held no more power than Northumbria and Mercia had in previous centuries, and this for less than 30 years, as the vikings were invading and already controlled Northumbria at the time he claimed it. (which is why Northumbria never bothered with him ;) )
The first that could be called a "True" king of England was Alfred (The Great) also of Wessex, and even he, at his most powerful, only ruled upto the old borders of Northumbria (River Humber)...(Dont we Northumbrians enjoy upsetting the rest of England ;)
The 1st King to Truly rule the whole of England was Cnut (King of Mercia until the death of the King of Wessex, at which time he married the widow and Ruled all England). However, as Cnut was the King of Norway, Denmark and most of Sweden at the time, England was only part of the Viking "Empire" at this time.
Its not until 1042, that an "Englishman" (Edward, son of Ethelread) ruled "England" in the true sense of the word (following the Death of Harthacnut (another Viking))...and he had problems (Note the date).
In essence, the "Angles" (more correctly Anglo-Saxon) ruled "Angleland" as a single "nation" for 24 years, before the Norman Invasion.
After the Norman Invasion, btw, the Northumbrians were still a pain in the arse of the English....coz we enjoyed our fights with the Scots too much to even give lipservice to Norman Rule.
Despite a "Newcastle" being built on the Tyne, "English Law" in fact ended at Durham, where the Bishop was given responsibility to enforce the Laws (Hence the title "Land of the Prince Bishops" that the people of County Durham are so fond of).
Us Northumbrians (well, northern half of the old kingdom) were much too busy enjoying ourselves as Border Reveivers (http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/) with the Scots ;)
Im at a loss to put an exact date that the old "Northumbria" finally stopped being a pain in the arse of the English (probably with the Establishment of the 1st Duke of Northumberland (http://www.compapp.dcu.ie/~humphrys/FamTree/Dudley/1st.duke.northumberland.html) in 1502), however its interesting to note that Queen Victoria was known to draw the curtains of the Royal Train as it went past "That Den of Republicans" at Newcastle upon Tyne....In the late 19th Century.
Posted by: hobbes
Originally posted by JPaul+3 August 2003 - 09:30--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 3 August 2003 - 09:30)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@3 August 2003 - 01:17
Regardless of the inequities of slavery, democracy and individual freedom were founding principles of the United States, from the very beginning.
That is just preposterous. The six words before the comma make that which follows it nothing short of insulting.
I can accept specious, if pushed. However to write-off slavery is beyond the pale.
Have you no shame man. Sorry I forgot who I was speaking to.[/b][/quote]
"Believe it or not, at one time Blacks were not considered to be actual "people". The N word describes a black person who is the property of another. Not an actual person, but an object or possession.
In recently viewing a special on Mark Twain, I was shocked to learn how powerful and progressive "Huckleberry Finn" was. To me, as a kid, it was about a trip on the river, but it is so much more than that.
The whole point is about the DE-education of Huck. Huck has been raised to believe that blacks are not people. But his observations of Jim, how Jim talks about his family (Blacks were felt to have no sense of family, and wifes, husbands and children could be separated as trivially as one would separate a litter of puppies)and such makes Huck wonder about this.
The crux of the story comes when Huck writes a letter to Jims' owner explaining to him where he can find his lost property and how sorry he is for this situation. He says "after all, he (the slave owner) never done nothin' to me before, and here I am helping his property get away." He has been raised to believe that he will go to Hell for this.
At this point, Huck with letter in hand, Jim wakes from a nap and tells Huck that he is the best friend old Jim ever had (Jim obviously can't read and knows nothing of Hucks plan).
Huck thinks about things for awhile, then throws the letter away saying , "Well, I guess I'll just go to hell, then".
Can you imagine that? To Huck, Hell is a real physical place, a certainty and a consequence of his crime. Huck has been de-educated."
The above is something I posted a year ago in my first on-line forum. I am not attempting to justify anything, just wanted to show a perspective many may not be aware of. People justified slavery by believing that Blacks were just sophisticated farm animals. Believe it, or not.
Posted by: J'Pol
Which is what makes the whole j2 thread so ridiculous (in the true sense of the word).
Thanks for that btw, I enjoyed reading it. What's the smiley for that - it appears there is no need for one.
Posted by: ClubDiggler
Originally posted by Becka@2 August 2003 - 01:27
Why are the American people so bothered by the fact that most of their history relies on someone else?
I don't think the American people are all that bothered really!!!!! B)
Posted by: Rat Faced
Originally posted by JPaul
What's the smiley for that - it appears there is no need for one.
Just being friendly :P :lol: :lol:
Posted by: clocker
Originally posted by JPaul+3 August 2003 - 02:30--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 3 August 2003 - 02:30)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@3 August 2003 - 01:17
Regardless of the inequities of slavery, democracy and individual freedom were founding principles of the United States, from the very beginning.
That is just preposterous. The six words before the comma make that which follows it nothing short of insulting.
I can accept specious, if pushed. However to write-off slavery is beyond the pale.
Have you no shame man. Sorry I forgot who I was speaking to. [/b][/quote]
Interesting.
I suppose, JPaul, that we must also discount all of British history prior to say, 1910 or so as being equally corrupt and hateful.
After all, indentured servitude and extreme class prejudice were the norm in your neck of the woods until the late Edwardian era.
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by clocker+3 August 2003 - 19:55--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 3 August 2003 - 19:55)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by JPaul@3 August 2003 - 02:30
<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@3 August 2003 - 01:17
Regardless of the inequities of slavery, democracy and individual freedom were founding principles of the United States, from the very beginning.
That is just preposterous. The six words before the comma make that which follows it nothing short of insulting.
I can accept specious, if pushed. However to write-off slavery is beyond the pale.
Have you no shame man. Sorry I forgot who I was speaking to.
Interesting.
I suppose, JPaul, that we must also discount all of British history prior to say, 1910 or so as being equally corrupt and hateful.
After all, indentured servitude and extreme class prejudice were the norm in your neck of the woods until the late Edwardian era. [/b][/quote]
I do not disagree with you one little bit. The history of the United Kingdom is full of examples of the rich treating the poor appallingly. Coming from a very much working background (I have gone into it previously) it is not news to me.
Oh wait, I didn't say it wasn't, it was your countryman making the preposterous claims about the birth of your democracy.
I will not retract claims I didn't make. Nice try at transference tho'.
Just to totally clarify the position, my neck of the woods at that time would have been the working class "slaves" in Ireland. Who were the victims of the English oppression of which you speak. So, if anything I have more in common with the descendants of the Black slaves in America.
My Maternal Grandmother for example went into service in Parnell's estate when she was a very young girl. So I am familiar with the concepts, having spoken to her about them.
Posted by: j2k4
This is beginning to sound like something I saw on television the other day:
A black lawyer for the NAACP was adamantly stating that only blacks were qualified to teach Black History courses at any level, as only they were capable of communicating the pain felt by blacks due to their past treatment as slaves.
First, why would it be necessary to communicate that which should be self-evident to anyone? The "pain" is inherent in the teachings.
Secondly, I haven't ever been addicted to heroin, but neither do I regard that fortunate lack as meaning I am incapable of understanding how bad it would be to be addicted to heroin.
Is it your contention, JPaul, that you, having been related to an indentured person, have a deeper loathing of what it means to be a "slave" than I?
Edit:spelling
Posted by: J'Pol
I didnīt intend to say or even imply that.
I was replying to Clockers argument that the UK was as bad as the USA and that, somehow this made your argument less ludicrous. ī"You did a bad thing, so you cant say I did a bad thing."
I fully agreed that the UK has a dreadful record, however at the time of which he spoke my ancestors were in Ireland. They were also the very people who he described as being the victims of the British.
I went on to point out that, if anything that made me have more in common with the black slaves than with their masters.
If that came across to you as me implying a greater empathy on my part than on yours then it was because the post was badly written. I apologise for any confusion and hope this clears it up.
Please bear in mind that it was you who brought up the idea that your democracy was wonderful from itīs inception. (Apart from the slight matter of the slavery thing).
It was then Clocker who brought up the fact the the UK had a poor history on equality. I couldnīt agree more.
Posted by: j2k4
I must clarify also:
I meant merely to point out that the ideas of freedom and equality were cornerstones of our founding philosophies and accompanying documents.
It is apparent to all that the United States did not begin to "practice what we preached" for a good while after it's inception.
Neither did I intend to give short shrift to the outrage of slavery; a prior post did an excellent job of delineating the astounding disregard for the value of slaves, and defined their status at that time as no more than highly developed animals.
My point is that, regardless of what has passed before, the higher concepts of freedom and equality are currently practiced in the United States as nowhere else, and for that, we receive no credit, even though we have achieved this level of "enlightenment" over a relatively short time, historically.
I hope this helps.
Posted by: clocker
Give it up j2.
Any credit due the US JPaul will assign to the Germans.
Posted by: thewizeard
the higher concepts of freedom and equality are currently practiced in the United States as nowhere else
Not to say anything about how the Dutch would feel about the quoted statement!.
That's good advice from clocker, take it.
Posted by: Barbarossa
Originally posted by Neil__@2 August 2003 - 22:43
Thanks Becka
Like you said, a little perspective here.
There is a case for America, as a new country their full of history.
But your right.
A little perspective is here.
Britain "among others" has been conquered so many times it makes us steadfast and America has a time lag.
And unfortunately they seem to be trying to make up for it with media wars.
In that they aren't so different from us.
Neil
I have to agree with JPaul, what the HELL does any of this mean?
For example..
America has a time lag
They can be blamed for alot of things, but I don't think they can be blamed for being in a different time zone.
The Atlantic Ocean is not their fault.. ;)
Posted by: Rat Faced
Originally posted by nigel123@4 August 2003 - 11:02
the higher concepts of freedom and equality are currently practiced in the United States as nowhere else
Not to say anything about how the Dutch would feel about the quoted statement!.
That's good advice from clocker, take it.
Actually most of Europe here, which has much stricter Privacy Laws than the USA, protecting the Freedom etc.....
Holland however....I agree, they take "Freedom" to the next level ;)
This is not to say that USA isnt "Free" they are, of course....definately within the top 20 on the planet :P
Posted by: J'Pol
Read the ECHR and the DPA and see how they protect our individual freedoms.
Then look at the RIAA suing people in America for sharing files. In spite of constitution SP1
Then consider individual freedoms and how the EU compares to the USA with regard to freedom and equality.
Anyway it was j2 anī Clocker that started it and they are smelly smelly smell smells
Posted by: Lamsey
Originally posted by JPaul@4 August 2003 - 18:58
Anyway it was j2 anī Clocker that started it and they are smelly smelly smell smells
Damn right. It's because they're American ;)
Posted by: RPerry
man....
some of these discussions are depressing. I feel bad for all of you. You point fingers at each other, make fun of, accuse, etc. Just because you were fortunate/unfortunate to be born to parents that lived in your particular country?
Home is where you hang your hat, a lot of people have no contol over where they live, and sure the hell have no control over where they were born. Maybe because I don't put any importance on where a person lives to whether or not I can understand or like them makes me different? Truly, I think we all share a level of embarrasment of certain things in our country's histories. Thing is, what could we have done to change them? mabe this could be another topic of discussion one day instead of "what can I say to piss off someone from a country other than my own"
If your happy where you are at, thats all that should matter. I could live in many other countries and still be as happy. from the sounds of it, some of you wouldn't be happy no matter where you lived :ph34r:
Posted by: J'Pol
Fair point.
Let's all agree on everything and be done with individuality.
That way there will never be any argument or discussion. No more debate or difference of opinion.
That would be Utopia.
Good idea that man. Your generation can't cope with mature debate - best solution, don't do it anymore.
Excellent post - well presented, where can I hand my humanity in.
Posted by: Lamsey
Originally posted by JPaul@7 August 2003 - 00:50
Excellent post - well presented, where can I hand my humanity in.
right here: http://www.municipalyearbook.co.uk/myb/uploads/content/dustbin.jpg
On a serious note:
I think RPerry is like me, he thinks the world would be a great place if humans could understand and accept their differences. There's nothing wrong with being idealistic.
However, I (and he, I hope) am also realistic... the world is not like that, and probably never will be :(
It is possible to be idealistic and realistic. Strange but true.
Posted by: J'Pol
Did you actually read the words of our respective posts, or was that a conditioned response.
You really should react to what people actually say and not what you expect them to.
Posted by: Lamsey
It's late and I'm tired... I can't sleep 'cos I'm too hot :(
This may explain why I seem to have misinterpreted RPerry's post...
never mind me, I'll get me coat.
Posted by: RPerry
I have no problems with disagreements, it just seems like people hide behind what country's flag flys over their heads. Like I said, I'm sure we all have things in our countries history's that we are ashamed of.
Mature debates I can handle, Immature debates tend to get under my skin. I really don't see where blaming particular people's Countries for your problems solve anything to begin with. If you want to have a mature debate, come up with solutions, I'm sure you can have a nice debate over that :P
@JPaul
You know nothing about me, nor where I am coming from. Your generalization of me and my generation tells me you haven't the slightest idea you know anything about me. To me that kind of generalization is just about as bad a racism. I say this because my ideals do not fit in with most people my age. I have had too many friends think the best way to run this country is to throw all immigrants out, and let the rest of the world solve its own problems, God help us if any of them ever run for political office.
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by RPerry@7 August 2003 - 02:10
@JPaul
You know nothing about me, nor where I am coming from. Your generalization of me and my generation tells me you haven't the slightest idea you know anything about me. To me that kind of generalization is just about as bad a racism. I say this because my ideals do not fit in with most people my age. I have had too many friends think the best way to run this country is to throw all immigrants out, and let the rest of the world solve its own problems, God help us if any of them ever run for political office.
As such I can only respond to what you post, which I did. By our words, so shall you know us.
Why do you equate me to a racist. Such obvious flame bait is neither wanted nor needed here. I find it whole-ly inappropriate. I merely responded to what you said.
Posted by: RPerry
Originally posted by JPaul@6 August 2003 - 23:49
Why do you equate me to a racist. Such obvious flame bait is neither wanted nor needed here. I find it whole-ly inappropriate. I merely responded to what you said.
I am sorry if you think my comment was to flame you, that was not intended. I simply pointed out that making a generalization to that extent was as bad.
Posted by: J'Pol
No, I didn't think you were flaming me.
I described your post as flame bait. Equating me to a racist, which I hope you agree is seriously offensive.
Meaning it was intended to draw flame to you, from me.
Posted by: chalkmongoose
Oh lovely, you know the world's gone to hell when two moderators start flaming.
I think that the problem with racism is that nobody looks deeply into it. Yes, Americans enslaved Africans and wiped out the Native Americans, and also the Mid-Easterners, Asians... Etc... But Africans kept slaves as well! And Native Americans loved commiting genocide! And Japan isn't exactly a powderpuff! And don't get me started on Afghans, who cut off hands for stealing bread.
Posted by: Rat Faced
Yes, Americans enslaved Africans
Did they?
I always thought it was the British did that, then sold them to the Americans.
Although it was very rare for Brits to keep slaves, they started the Slave Trangle.
Posted by: j2k4
A close inspection of history will reveal the oft-overlooked fact that Africans were even enslaved by their own countrymen (blacks owned blacks).
This, of course, does not mean that the U.S. is willing to share the blame for the plight of slavery; it is, after all, totally our fault. ;)
Posted by: RPerry
Originally posted by j2k4@11 August 2003 - 12:29
This, of course, does not mean that the U.S. is willing to share the blame for the plight of slavery; it is, after all, totally our fault. ;)
well, I don't know how true this is in other American homes, but it never came up as a topic in my home. Nor do I remember history books pointing at anyone else. Maybe I need a refresher course... :huh:
Posted by: clocker
RPerry,
j2 was merely highlighting the fact that everything that is wrong/evil in the world is the fault of the US. A casual perusal of the forum will prove this beyond question.
I really don't know how we manage to get out of bed in the morning.
Posted by: RPerry
Originally posted by clocker@11 August 2003 - 17:24
I really don't know how we manage to get out of bed in the morning.
Thats and easy question to answer...
I don't go to bed until daylight most days :P
Posted by: J'Pol
Deflection is a wonderful tactic and you use it well - both of you.
However to attempt to dismiss the darkest part of your history with half a dozen words is frankly appaling.
To then go on to put yourselves forward as the epitome of freedom and justice would put a hollywood mogul to shame. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good tale.
We sit in poor old Europe, watching your ranygazoo (sorry to use such strong language) with the RIAA, suing students for millions, threatening to imprison people for nothing more than copying a song from the radio (updated) when the people who are threatening to do this are supplying the hardware, software and media to do it with and are left speechless.
As ever your words are no more than that - your actions show the real you.
Incidentally para 3 is my entry in this years "longest sentence in a sensible thread" category.
Posted by: clocker
As usual, Americans stand in the shadow of Trigger, the moral high horse that JPaul rides into every thread.
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by clocker@11 August 2003 - 22:40
As usual, Americans stand in the shadow of Trigger, the moral high horse that JPaul rides into every thread.
Oh - that would be your version of smelly smelly smell smell.
Posted by: clocker
I defer to your expertise.
Posted by: Lamsey
hee hee hee
http://www.mcbriens.net/liam/img/clockersense.jpg
sorry, this still slays me every time i see it...
as you were :)
edit: damn, just caused this again...
http://www.mcbriens.net/liam/img/damn.jpg
Posted by: RPerry
Originally posted by JPaul@11 August 2003 - 17:33
Deflection is a wonderful tactic and you use it well - both of you.
However to attempt to dismiss the darkest part of your history with half a dozen words is frankly appaling.
I would kind of like to know where I dismissed anything of the sort? what I dismissed was the notion that I point my finger at Great Britain for it...
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by RPerry+11 August 2003 - 23:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RPerry @ 11 August 2003 - 23:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@11 August 2003 - 17:33
Deflection is a wonderful tactic and you use it well - both of you.
However to attempt to dismiss the darkest part of your history with half a dozen words is frankly appaling.
I would kind of like to know where I dismissed anything of the sort? what I dismissed was the notion that I point my finger at Great Britain for it... [/b][/quote]
Not you - j2 and clocker.
Try to read the whole thread - not just the last couple of posts.
Posted by: j2k4
I am currently trying to abide and deal with the smell I am emitting; it seems to get worse the more I bemoan our stock on this board.
I realize we are not going to win the International Popularity Contest via our current foreign-policy; I have never been privy to an instance of the accomplishment of painful, discomfitting, or unpopular tasks in any situation or venue which resulted in the type of acclaim others seem to think the U.S. needs or desires.
The U.K. (excuse me-I meant to say Tony Blair and the U.K. military) has, so far, worked with us in four-square fashion; while we certainly don't enjoy the support of Nigel Q. Public, we hope someday he will discern the positive aspects of our aims and actions.
As to the origin of this thread, these issues revolving around international "lack of respect" are small potatoes; I look forward to more substantial fare.
BTW-JPaul: "appalling"=two "l's" next time, yes? I mention it only because I feel sure you will be using it often as we progress.
Now, where's that pit-stick? :angry: