G.o.d (((((((((athiest))))))))))
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)Posted by: Billy_Dean
Hi Clocko, long time no see, wanna argue about something??
:)
Posted by: clocker
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@21 September 2003 - 07:31
Hi Clocko, long time no see, wanna argue about something??
:)
Not quite yet, Billy.
I'm still on my first tankard of coffee...
Posted by: jbrockz
BTW, I would recommend you keep your daughters away from Pretty Woman with Julia Roberts...
:lol: , but still single
to clocker,
english is not my first language and i still have a lot to learn about the language....i am comfortable using it but not 'technically sound' in it. i try to use movies and quotes to help explain the point since my vocabulary is limited at this point, and i like watching movies. [i actually had to look up cretin, and there a lot of words Jpaul used that i didn't look up, fortunately :D ]...i don't base my life's philosophy on movies, i just use them to aid in my explanation.
generally speaking, as regards the views themselves, i am not saying only i m right. i just saying this is what i think or this is how i see it and i'd like your opinion. i guess the discussion in gay rights post went better than this one [at least i didnt have anyone calling me stupid]. i discussed my interpretation of a stephen hawking's quote and got great inputs from many about how they saw it. some understood, others criticised, yet others gave their own viewpoint. i guess it works better if you have someone replying, even attacking, your views rather than YOU.
as for jpaul, billy-dean summed it up best :) [i guess you can call this using a real-life example...hehe]
You have nothing to say in contradiction, you then attack the person.
Then you come up with this ..
QUOTE
The people you are discussing these thing with are indulging your ill-informed opinions, in order to encourage you to think and form opinions for yourself
/QUOTE
The PEOPLE here? You mean to say this personal shit is designed to help him? Bullshit! You argue for the sake of it, nothing wrong with that, except you have a very shallow pool of thought.
Posted by: clocker
jbrockz,
Your English seems pretty good to me. You are already one step ahead of me as I am not comfortable in any other language, so kudos to you.
I was simply commenting on your use of movies to explain "real life". When you make generalizations such as "prostitutes are less racist than socialites" (paraphrase) and then back it up with examples from films, I have to question the validity of your basic premise.
Were you to say " My socialite friend is a bitch and my prostitute girlfriend is not", then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Posted by: jbrockz
Your English seems pretty good to me. You are already one step ahead of me as I am not comfortable in any other language, so kudos to you.
Thanks :)
Were you to say " My socialite friend is a bitch and my prostitute girlfriend is not", then we wouldn't be having this discussion
True. As i said, i m still in learning mode. with hindsight you are right, but i guess to come up with that statement i would require to have a certain level of ease with the language that only constant communication with it can give, something that i still require more of and am hoping my discussions here will provide, along with a broader range of view-points. I guess you can compare it with having a knowledge of the ins and outs of an engine but not having much hands-on experience. I do have people here with whom i communicate in english, but not for the major part of the day.
so, learning from your quote, i would rephrase it as - A socialite can be a racist bitch, whereas A prostitute [not my girlfriend, man :D ] may be a bitch, but not racist.
Posted by: clocker
jbrockz,
I would simply caution you against making sweeping generalizations.
...i repect the whore more than the socialite cause the whoe would be less racist than the socialite any day, just an example,
As an example...
Posted by: jbrockz
point taken :)
Posted by: clocker
Welcome aboard, btw.
Posted by: jbrockz
thanks :)
Posted by: hobbes
Originally posted by Biggles@21 September 2003 - 13:59
Hobbes
How long does this bio-rhythm thing last? :blink:
Quite variable- modified by alcohol and coffee- looks like we are currently experiencing one douzy of a break in concentration.
Posted by: hobbes
Originally posted by JPaul@21 September 2003 - 11:38
This explains a lot, it has happened on several occasions now. You don't actually read what people write. There are of course some other possibilities. I suppose it is possible that you don't actually understand what is being said, or that you are just obtuse.
I think this statement is something I can relate to, as well. I think Billy should take this to heart because I recurrently get this feeling.
Some people are more focused on their clever rebuttal and do not give a post its due attention.
Billy is certainly not alone in this regard, and I find it frustrating to carry on a discussion with someone who is clearly not contemplating each post. It means that the person is more focused on defending his position than listening to the others point of view.
Just how I feel.
Posted by: thewizeard
Originally posted by clocker@21 September 2003 - 18:36
Welcome aboard, btw.
idem dito jbrockz! a welcome from the Netherlands,
a little off topic of course but then I ask, was it ever on topic...?
Posted by: jbrockz
Thanks, nigel123 :)
a little off topic of course but then I ask, was it ever on topic...?
we are full 28 pages away from the topic...lol ;)
Posted by: bigboab
To go back to he original. If there is a God, why Aberfan?
Posted by: Billy_Dean
Originally posted by hobbes+22 September 2003 - 03:22--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 22 September 2003 - 03:22)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@21 September 2003 - 11:38
This explains a lot, it has happened on several occasions now. You don't actually read what people write. There are of course some other possibilities. I suppose it is possible that you don't actually understand what is being said, or that you are just obtuse.
I think this statement is something I can relate to, as well. I think Billy should take this to heart because I recurrently get this feeling.
Some people are more focused on their clever rebuttal and do not give a post its due attention.
Billy is certainly not alone in this regard, and I find it frustrating to carry on a discussion with someone who is clearly not contemplating each post. It means that the person is more focused on defending his position than listening to the others point of view.
Just how I feel. [/b][/quote]
The kettle calling the pot black, and using a quote from a mudslinger to express his\her views, cute!
:)
Posted by: Billy_Dean
Originally posted by bigboab@22 September 2003 - 11:56
To go back to he original. If there is a God, why Aberfan?
There is no god, and Aberfan was a tragic accident. I laid flowers there in 1998.
:)
Posted by: noname12
There is a God, and my evidence... well lets see Famous philosopher (i have no idea what his name was, but i think he was french) said "I do not believe in God... But I do, for the thought of Death forces me to" how that is evidence? i have no idea.
Second piece of Evidence, a famous poet, again I have no idea what his name is but i think hes Arabic, "If I was to tell you this house appeared on its own, you would call me mad... yet you expect me to believe this entire universe just.... popped out of nowhere?", Is this evidence? I dont know.
Third piece of evidence, I just think the entire universe is a miracle of mathmatical perfection, and to believe it to all be a coincidence... eh too dodgey.
Posted by: Billy_Dean
Keep up the school work noname, lay off the pot, and French "philosophers", or you'll never learn.
:)
Posted by: noname12
well you come up with a better argument then :P
Posted by: Billy_Dean
I don't need an argument, show me proof, not someone elses words.
There is a God, and my evidence......"I do not believe in God... But I do, for the thought of Death forces me to"
Obviously he doesn't believe, or does he? If he does, why would he say he doesn't?
Second piece of Evidence ....."If I was to tell you this house appeared on its own, you would call me mad... yet you expect me to believe this entire universe just.... popped out of nowhere?", Is this evidence? I dont know.
No, it's not evidence, just some silly arab.
Third piece of evidence, I just think the entire universe is a miracle of mathmatical perfection, and to believe it to all be a coincidence... eh too dodgey.
That's evidence??
If there is a god, show me the evidence, don't just say this or that couldn't have happened naturally.
:)
Posted by: noname12
lol well prove to me there isnt a God... :P
Posted by: noname12
Lets start from the very beggining, the big bang... explain it to me? and explain the creation of life or "evolution", then from there we can have a nice meaningful debate.
Posted by: jbrockz
lol, billy
as for the first part, noname, ask the philosoper to make up his mind. if he says he has to believe in God since he fears death, then he clearly considers Him as the ultimate judge who will judge him at the end of his days, which disproves his claim that he believes there is no God. And if he believes there is no God, then death would just be an inevitale scientific process, exemplifying [spelling?] at best the imperfection inherent to life.
as for the second and third parts, you are clearly talking about the 'big bang theory'. well, its just that - a theory. scientists have conceded a long time ago that they might never know how the universe really came to be. instead the focus of physics has changed to the unification of the theories that explain the majestic and the minute. the big bang is largely accepted as the beginning of the universe since the very little evidence we have about our universe suggests that. for example, its expanding nature, the presence of black holes, the fact we literally have the ability to look back in time [when you see a star that is 4 light years away, you are looking at the star as it was 4 years ago...the farther away you can see, the more in the past you can go].
as part of your physics class ;) , i would recommend you to read 'the brief history of time', can't find a simpler book about a complex subject then this. there is some play on God in there too.
Posted by: noname12
lol the guy means that if there was not that whole death thing he would not believe in God, but to face death and to believe there is nothing but a void beyond forces him to believe there is a God, so then there is no void there is something beyond there is meaning to life, there is a purpose, there is justice and so on.
I just couldnt be bothered to type the whole damn thing out because i figured no one would notice it :lol:
So basically looking at it from a whole weird philosophical way He doesnt believe YET HE DOES... jees :P
As for the big bang yeah yeah, there was a giant planet that blew up, yeah well where did that "giant planet" come from? oh yeah star dust, where did the star dust come from? well duh stars where the hell did the stars come from? lol and so on, theres a beginin to everything and an end, to believe life and the universe started just because some huge planet decided to have a overly dramatic fart then excuse me for not believing...
In my views there's gotta be a greater being.
Posted by: jbrockz
you wrote
...there is a purpose, there is justice and so on
i had written
...then he clearly considers Him as the ultimate judge who will judge him at the end of his days...
i guess i was on track at least partially, since you couldn't be bothered to write the whole thing. :P
Posted by: jbrockz
Originally posted by noname12@22 September 2003 - 06:23
As for the big bang yeah yeah, there was a giant planet that blew up, yeah well where did that "giant planet" come from? oh yeah star dust, where did the star dust come from? well duh stars where the hell did the stars come from? lol and so on, theres a beginin to everything and an end, to believe life and the universe started just because some huge planet decided to have a overly dramatic fart then excuse me for not believing...
In my views there's gotta be a greater being.
:o dude, you really need to read 'the brief history of time'...you got the 'big bang' all wrong and i don't have the energy to explain it here.
Posted by: noname12
lol your right i do, i just go on what those freaks in shopping centres scream, and yes you find the big bang supporters out there, and a little from watching TV and thats what they all said.... and TV can never be wrong :D
Posted by: Billy_Dean
As for the big bang yeah yeah, there was a giant planet that blew up, yeah well where did that "giant planet" come from? oh yeah star dust, where did the star dust come from? well duh stars where the hell did the stars come from? lol and so on, theres a beginin to everything and an end, to believe life and the universe started just because some huge planet decided to have a overly dramatic fart then excuse me for not believing...
In my views there's gotta be a greater being.
Did you read this on the back of a cornflake packet?
:)
Posted by: noname12
/\
||
||
||
||
||
look up
lol i might as well have
eh i will look it up on the internet.
Posted by: Billy_Dean
@jbrockz
dude, you really need to read 'the brief history of time'...you got the 'big bang' all wrong and i don't have the energy to explain it here.
Dude, you really need to move on to "The Universe In A Nutshell"
JBRockz look here, no-one else! (http://www.popular-science.net/science/hawking.html)
:)
Posted by: jbrockz
thanks, billy. is it available on kazaa yet ;)
Posted by: Billy_Dean
Originally posted by jbrockz@22 September 2003 - 16:07
thanks, billy. is it available on kazaa yet ;)
I've no idea mate, never used K\L to find books.
Save up for the real thing, the illustrations are fantastic, a magic book, and easier to read than "Time".
:)
EDIT: If you don't want your signature to look like that, add [/color] to the end of each line.
Posted by: thewizeard
No one, except God itself, will ever be able to prove anthing to us humankind. We all know God doesn't pop round to visit us here very often.Untill God does visit us, then it's back to the cornflake packet for all of us, as Billy_Dean would put it....For the time being a little tolerance will be usefull. Now, what shall I have for breakfast.
Posted by: noname12
eat Fruit loops, and here here three cheers for nigel123.
and Billy_Dean remind me to send a complaint letter to the discovery channel, they taught me wrong :lol:
Posted by: Billy_Dean
I hate to nit-pick here Nigel, but shouldn't there be a question mark at the end of your post??
(My god, I'm sounding like JPaul, or was it Hobbes, or maybe ......)
:)
Posted by: Billy_Dean
Originally posted by noname12@22 September 2003 - 16:13
eat Fruit loops, and here here three cheers for nigel123.
and Billy_Dean remind me to send a complaint letter to the discovery channel, they taught me wrong :lol:
Haha, maybe they taught you about black holes and you didn't listen properly, got stars and planets mixed up, and thought they were talking about the big bang. An easy mistake to make. ;)
:)
Posted by: noname12
Well its possible, with that boring voice explaining things i could have fallen asleep half way through the Big Bang theory and wolk up near the end of Stars, Black holes and Billy_Dean The theory.
Posted by: jbrockz
...never used K\L to find books
same here, except novels....and, ahem, e--tica.
Posted by: Billy_Dean
Originally posted by noname12@22 September 2003 - 16:22
Well its possible, with that boring voice explaining things i could have fallen asleep half way through the Big Bang theory and wolk up near the end of Stars, Black holes and Billy_Dean The theory.
Haha! I like it, *The Billy Dean Theory* I'm sure that will bring a response from you-know-whos ...!
:)
Posted by: J'Pol
Astonishing, all this talk of the works of Prof Hawking. You are of course aware that he is on record stating that he does in fact believe in God. No question mark there btw, it has been noted by others that I rarely use them. Wouldn't want to let a bit of peurile mud-slinging pass now would I.
Posted by: Billy_Dean
Originally posted by JPaul@22 September 2003 - 17:14
Astonishing, all this talk of the works of Prof Hawking. You are of course aware that he is on record stating that he does in fact believe in God. No question mark there btw, it has been noted by others that I rarely use them. Wouldn't want to let a bit of peurile mud-slinging pass now would I.
You are aware, of course, that Hawking has since refuted that claim.
I refer you to Carl Sagan's words in the introduction to A Brief History of Time ...
"This is also a book about God...or perhaps about the absence of God. The word God fills these pages. Hawking embarks on a quest to answer Einstein's famous question about whether God had any choice in creating the universe. Hawking is attempting, as he explicitly states, to understand the mind of God. And this makes all the more unexpected the conclusion of the effort, at least so far: a universe with no edge in space, no beginning or end of time, and nothing for a creator to do."
:)
Posted by: J'Pol
I wasn't aware that he had refuted the belief. Thanks for the point out. I am obviously not up to speed.
Do you have a source for this, I would genuinely be interested to read his thoughts on the matter.
Posted by: Biggles
A number of leading physicists subscribe to the possibility of an intelligent design. However, it is debatable as to whether this concept translates easily into what adherents of specific religions would consider a deity.
I think something akin to Blake's "architect" or "draughtsman" would be a more apposite comparison. As I said above, there is one gigantic leap from a mathematical coherence in the perceived universe to strange dictats concerning dietry laws or bulldozing your house if it has mildew.
I think, actually, the moment religion is deductable through equation it probably ceases to be religion.
Although I am no adherent to any specific religion (notwithstanding a totally irrational soft spot for old Celtic myths) I have no objection to others getting the utmost from their own particular faiths. It just ceases to be fun when it is used as a basis to discriminate against others who have different beliefs.
:rolleyes: As an aside, theoretical physics is not a happy hunting ground. Long division stumps many, so putting trust in a blackboard covered in pure algebra that proves there are in fact 14 dimensions and not 13 as previously supposed is just as much a leap of faith for the average man as believing there are gods living on Mount Olympus. Sincere and genuine apologies to any average men (or women ) out there that love long algebraic equations.
Posted by: jbrockz
A number of leading physicists subscribe to the possibility of an intelligent design. However, it is debatable as to whether this concept translates easily into what adherents of specific religions would consider a deity.
I think something akin to Blake's "architect" or "draughtsman" would be a more apposite comparison. As I said above, there is one gigantic leap from a mathematical coherence in the perceived universe to strange dictats concerning dietry laws or bulldozing your house if it has mildew.
I think, actually, the moment religion is deductable through equation it probably ceases to be religion.
Although I am no adherent to any specific religion (notwithstanding a totally irrational soft spot for old Celtic myths) I have no objection to others getting the utmost from their own particular faiths. It just ceases to be fun when it is used as a basis to discriminate against others who have different beliefs
Amen , brother!
Since English is not my first language, if i had set out to explain this, i can't imagine what i would have done with it....the nitpickers would have had a field-day...lol. Perfect choice of words!!
As an aside, theoretical physics is not a happy hunting ground. Long division stumps many, so putting trust in a blackboard covered in pure algebra that proves there are in fact 14 dimensions and not 13 as previously supposed is just as much a leap of faith for the average man as believing there are gods living on Mount Olympus. Sincere and genuine apologies to any average men (or women ) out there that love long algebraic equations.
Amen again. Taking theoretical physics as an example, I think the world can suddenly become a whole lot tolerant if only we would appreciate the amount of things about this universe [religious and physical] that we don't know. Forget about dimensions, even planets haven't been happy hunting grounds. Read this
http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/ni...anets/hypo.html (http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/hypo.html)
Imperfection [and i use this term loosely] is the essence of life. In the discovery cahnnel series Human Body, the host [?] explains that the biggest hurdle to eternal life is the way the body regenerates itself. Every part from bone matter to skin regenerates, just not as obviously as a snake's skin. And everytime it does, it gets replaced by something that is a little less perfect, a little more away from ideal. If the body could replace every cell or tissue by an exact replica, we would never grow old.
Same way, thinking of one's religion to be the all and only truth, one's concept of God as the only real one and calling everyone else 'stupid' or evil is, at least to me, living in denial of this inherent imperfection.
This imperfection is important and very necessary. Why? A quote from six feet under [season one finale i think] comes to mind,
''why do people have to die?''
''to make life intresting.''
Imagine what fun it would be if everyone living on this planet was, say, catholic - no protestants, no hindus, no jews, no buddhists, no tribals. The biggest problem with people is expecting eveyone to be like them, and then justifying horrible deeds saying we are the only real people and they are not. Religion is a load of horseshit, God is a different issue altogether!
Posted by: ilw
If you had to join a religion which one would you choose?
Posted by: J'Pol
jbrockz
You use of the English language, particularly as a second language does you great credit. I know plenty of people who speak it as a first language who would not use the phrase inherent imperfection and certainly not in context.
That whole last post is very well put together. I may not always agree with the ideas you put across (particularly when you generalise) however I am really impressed by your ability to put them across. I would find it difficult to ask for some cheese and a glass of red wine in French for example.
Congrats to you and those who teach you, if you are teaching yourself even more impressive.
Do you mind me asking what your first language is.
Posted by: hobbes
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@22 September 2003 - 08:16
I hate to nit-pick here Nigel, but shouldn't there be a question mark at the end of your post??
(My god, I'm sounding like JPaul, or was it Hobbes, or maybe ......)
:)
Billy,
I'm getting a little bit embarrassed at all this effusive praise today. I wake up this a.m. to find a thread with my name on it. You tout that you have a quote "from the man himself". Who's the man, yea, I'm the man. I'm the man, himself! El numero uno, honcho!
Then again here. We all know that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Next thing you know you will be walking upright, demonstating humility and someday, hopefully, reading the posts. You're just growing up so fast! /me pinches Billys cheek.
As for this God thing, looks like we are on the 3rd time around the block with this subject.
Posted by: Billy_Dean
Originally posted by hobbes+23 September 2003 - 04:22--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 23 September 2003 - 04:22)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Billy_Dean@22 September 2003 - 08:16
I hate to nit-pick here Nigel, but shouldn't there be a question mark at the end of your post??
(My god, I'm sounding like JPaul, or was it Hobbes, or maybe ......)
:)
Billy,
I'm getting a little bit embarrassed at all this effusive praise today. I wake up this a.m. to find a thread with my name on it. You tout that you have a quote "from the man himself". Who's the man, yea, I'm the man. I'm the man, himself! El numero uno, honcho!
Then again here. We all know that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Next thing you know you will be walking upright, demonstating humility and someday, hopefully, reading the posts. You're just growing up so fast! /me pinches Billys cheek.
As for this God thing, looks like we are on the 3rd time around the block with this subject. [/b][/quote]
I'm just trying to make you famous like me Hobbesy, so you can get over this jealousy thing.
:)
Posted by: internet.news
ok, I did not know if there is any god there...
but what I think is, I could think of some kind of energy after
dying... probably some dead people, we cannot see these small amount of energy,
are sometimes close to us? If I would be dead and a kind of energy I would
still respect privacy... will try it ... really...
I explain people suffering and violence in world as so: human life also has
unfortunately negative parts. It is only sad to see people suffering...
e.g. each day in Israel - Palestinia... :(
thanks anyway, david.
Posted by: Calvarian2003
The atheist physicist joke:
'In the beginning there was nothing, which then exploded.'
Well then, that sure answers all the questions I have about the creation of the universe!
Posted by: Billy_Dean
Calvarian.
The atheist physicist joke:
'In the beginning there was nothing, which then exploded.'
Well then, that sure answers all the questions I have about the creation of the universe!
Perhaps you have a believable explanation of where your god came from? Or has he always been there? Forever? Hundreds of thousands of millions of billions of years? Boy, it took him a long time to get bored enough to create the universe then! And even longer to make us!
:)
Posted by: J'Pol
No you were right, God has always been there and always will be.
Compared to infinite one hundred million billion really isn't that big. In fact in relative terms, there's no difference between it and 1. Didn't take him any time at all to make the universe(s) time is meaningless to God.
Can't explain the infinite in terms of people's understanding of the way the universe works. Just isn't possible.
Posted by: Lamsey
I would like to affirm my belief that the universe is run by aliens from Mars with big elbows and pineapples for heads.
It's founded on exactly as much evidence as there is for any kind of religion, so why not? Go ahead and prove me wrong!
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by Lamsey@2 October 2003 - 20:51
I would like to affirm my belief that the universe is run by aliens from Mars with big elbows and pineapples for heads.
It's founded on exactly as much evidence as there is for any kind of religion, so why not? Go ahead and prove me wrong!
No thanks, you are just mocking people.
My beliefs are based on more than you just posting nonsense in a childish attempt to offend people like me.
Posted by: Lamsey
Originally posted by JPaul+2 October 2003 - 19:56--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 2 October 2003 - 19:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lamsey@2 October 2003 - 20:51
I would like to affirm my belief that the universe is run by aliens from Mars with big elbows and pineapples for heads.
It's founded on exactly as much evidence as there is for any kind of religion, so why not? Go ahead and prove me wrong!
No thanks, you are just mocking people.
My beliefs are based on more than you just posting nonsense in a childish attempt to offend people like me. [/b][/quote]
You malappropriate me most severely, JPaul.
I was trying to put across a serious point, albeit in a jocular sense.
There is no significant difference between my statement and the statement that someone believes in an all-powerful being, if you look at the evidence supporting either side.
I just find it strange that one (rightly) appears ridiculous and the other does not.
Posted by: J'Pol
There is every difference in the world. I happen to believe one of them and it forms an integral part of my life.
Unless I very much miss the mark, you do not actually believe what you posted. So you are comparing what I fundamentally believe to something you yourself think ridiculous.
That is entirely different to saying that you are an agnostic and find no evidence for my belief.
Posted by: bigboab
Originally posted by Lamsey+2 October 2003 - 19:59--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lamsey @ 2 October 2003 - 19:59)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by JPaul@2 October 2003 - 19:56
<!--QuoteBegin-Lamsey@2 October 2003 - 20:51
I would like to affirm my belief that the universe is run by aliens from Mars with big elbows and pineapples for heads.
It's founded on exactly as much evidence as there is for any kind of religion, so why not? Go ahead and prove me wrong!
No thanks, you are just mocking people.
My beliefs are based on more than you just posting nonsense in a childish attempt to offend people like me.
You malappropriate me most severely, JPaul.
I was trying to put across a serious point, albeit in a jocular sense.
There is no significant difference between my statement and the statement that someone believes in an all-powerful being, if you look at the evidence supporting either side.
I just find it strange that one (rightly) appears ridiculous and the other does not. [/b][/quote]
[QUOTE]
Although I tend to agree with some of what you say Lamsey. There is no proof that pineapples are growing anywhere else other than our universe.
But on a more serious note how anyone religious can justify the likes of Aberfan, Dunblane etc. where hundreds of innocent children are killed belies belief.
Posted by: Lamsey
Originally posted by JPaul@2 October 2003 - 20:06
There is every difference in the world. I happen to believe one of them and it forms an integral part of my life.
Unless I very much miss the mark, you do not actually believe what you posted. So you are comparing what I fundamentally believe to something you yourself think ridiculous.
That is entirely different to saying that you are an agnostic and find no evidence for my belief.
You can take apart the individual words if you like, mate, but the meaning that you are taking is certainly not the one I intended to put across.
Would it perhaps help if I use tags?
It was not my intention to offend; as you should know, it is not my style.
What I would like is for you, as a fundemental believer in your Faith, to explain to me what I am missing when I say that I see no difference. I apologise if that is not the way it came across.
Posted by: J'Pol
Why would I have to justify these things boab.
The one was the stupidity of man by building a school under a coal tip, the other was a man who lost his mind and used killing machines designed by other men, to kill.
Did you miss the point about God giving us free will. I am confused as to what your point is.
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by Lamsey@2 October 2003 - 21:12
It was not my intention to offend; as you should know, it is not my style.
What I would like is for you, as a fundemental believer in your Faith, to explain to me what I am missing when I say that I see no difference. I apologise if that is not the way it came across.
I very much know it is not your style.
My point is that rather than stating that you fundamentally disagreed with my belief, you compared it to something which was ridiculous. The inference being that my belief was ridiculous. That is entirely different from disagreeing with me.
To use an untrue example. I could say, I have no interest in archery, it really isn't my cup of tea. However if I were to say all people who are interested in it are ..... I will not finish this as some people will take anything I say the wrong way (I know you are not one of them).
The former I think is acceptable, the latter could be mocking and offensive.
Posted by: bigboab
Originally posted by JPaul@2 October 2003 - 20:13
Why would I have to justify these things boab.
The one was the stupidity of man by building a school under a coal tip, the other was a man who lost his mind and used killing machines designed by other men, to kill.
Did you miss the point about God giving us free will. I am confused as to what your point is.
[QUOTE]
What I am suggesting JP is that if there was such a thing as an omniscient being then it could ensure that this type of thing only happens to those that deserve it.
After both of these events that I quoted there were people saying that 'It is the will of god' and that it was a punishment for mans indiscretions.
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by bigboab+2 October 2003 - 21:22--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bigboab @ 2 October 2003 - 21:22)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@2 October 2003 - 20:13
Why would I have to justify these things boab.
The one was the stupidity of man by building a school under a coal tip, the other was a man who lost his mind and used killing machines designed by other men, to kill.
Did you miss the point about God giving us free will. I am confused as to what your point is.
What I am suggesting JP is that if there was such a thing as an omniscient being then it could ensure that this type of thing only happens to those that deserve it.
After both of these events that I quoted there were people saying that 'It is the will of god' and that it was a punishment for mans indiscretions. [/b]
He would have to be omnipotent as well, but I take your point.
I am not someone who believes that these tragedies are the will of God, so you may be better asking someone who is. I believe the exact opposite.
I believe that these things are very much not the will of God and that God does not want them to happen. However as he has given us free will, we keep on building the Guns and the bombs and the Schools at the bottom of coal tips.
Unless we have free will I believe the whole thing is pointless, we are all actors in a play and our scripts are pre-determined. I don't believe that. Unfortunately the free will that allows us to do good things also allows us to do bad things.
Posted by: bigboab
Well could he/she not let us read the script before scenes like these?
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by bigboab@2 October 2003 - 21:32
Well could he/she not let us read the script before scenes like these?
Sorry mate - it's an ad-lib sort of gig.
Posted by: bigboab
Sound more Lab/Lib if we dont get a choice. :P
Posted by: Lamsey
Originally posted by JPaul@2 October 2003 - 20:19
I very much know it is not your style.
My point is that rather than stating that you fundamentally disagreed with my belief, you compared it to something which was ridiculous. The inference being that my belief was ridiculous. That is entirely different from disagreeing with me.
To use an untrue example. I could say, I have no interest in archery, it really isn't my cup of tea. However if I were to say all people who are interested in it are ..... I will not finish this as some people will take anything I say the wrong way (I know you are not one of them).
The former I think is acceptable, the latter could be mocking and offensive.
OK, I see your point; the way I phrased my point may be taken as offensive.
I apologise for that.
Now could you answer my intended point?
Posted by: J'Pol
Originally posted by bigboab@2 October 2003 - 21:37
Sound more Lab/Lib if we dont get a choice. :P
Can't be, the whole thing is about choice.
Life is a series of choices, you can choose to do whatever you want, as long as you accept the consequences.
Can't be bothered going to work, it's up to you, just live with the fact you will get fired. However ultimately it is your choice. You can do anything you want, but you have to live with the results.
Posted by: bigboab
Originally posted by JPaul+2 October 2003 - 20:40--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 2 October 2003 - 20:40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-bigboab@2 October 2003 - 21:37
Sound more Lab/Lib if we dont get a choice. :P
Can't be, the whole thing is about choice.
Life is a series of choices, you can choose to do whatever you want, as long as you accept the consequences.
Can't be bothered going to work, it's up to you, just live with the fact you will get fired. However ultimately it is your choice. You can do anything you want, but you have to live with the results. [/b][/quote]
[QUOTE]
Maybe 50+ years ago JP. Now if you dont like the consequences, you sue.
Posted by: Billy_Dean
*Bump* for Chalice.
:)
Posted by: chalice
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@17 November 2003 - 10:06
*Bump* for Chalice.
:)
I thought I was out and they pull me back in.
Posted by: Guitar-Slinger
Interesting reading. Thank you all for posting.
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and seeks to pursue us into eternity."
-Thomas Paine
I could still read another 30 pages but it seems this matter is done?
Cheers:
-GS-