Hurricane Katrina...

[j2k4]

...has Hank dead in her sights.

Good luck, my friend. :(

[suprafreak6]

yeah im no where near the hurricane but i always feel bad for ppl who live over there because i mean like 2 or 3 times a year they get hit..

[BigBank_Hank]

As it stands right now we’re going to get wind and rain but nothing really major, this is of course if the storm continues on its projected path. If for some reason it doesn’t turn we’re screwed.

Usually I never get scared for a hurricane but this one has done it to me. I’m sitting tight for now but I’m hauling ass if it doesn’t turn towards the east.

Please keep all of us in your thoughts that are in this things way.

Jamie

[Rat Faced]

Good Luck Hank...

Hope it misses you mate ;)

[muchspl3]

902mb


scary

[j2k4]

It would seem only to be a question of how she tacks, now...

Good Lord, it's going to be bad, wherever she hits.

Camille, part II, if not worse.

Fourth lowest B.P. on record.

[RPerry]

Wish you all the luck Jamie. Even though I'm inland part of Florida, I would probably leave if it were coming towards me. Our thoughts are with you New Orleans area :(


Rob & Dawn

[Santa]

shouldn't you leave town or go to the stadium as they said on the news?

[muchspl3]

shouldn't you leave town or go to the stadium as they said on the news?I live on the coast of FL and never leave, but I would if it was a cat 5
if I lived under sea level like the people near NO I wouldn't stay over a cat 3
your just asking for Darwin to send you an award

[BigBank_Hank]

It’s very odd because today couldn’t be a more beautiful day here. Clear skies and a real nice breeze, you’d never think that there is monster like that on its way.

[GepperRankins]

...has Hank dead in her sights.

Good luck, my friend. :(
yeah, good luck katrina!

[hippychick]

I've read that I'ts recommend you fill your gas tanks tonight before the market opens in the morning.

You could save yourself like 9 bucks if you have a 30 gallon tank just for not waiting til morning.

Consensus is 20 to 30 cent price jump on gas per gallon if New Orleans gets hammered at 9am like its projected. The refinery in New Orleans refines around 25% of our gas and its fixin to find itself under water.

The chemical disaster that's brewing down there is pretty scary if you consider all the stuff thats going to end up in the water if the city floods. They are talking about even having to blow up the levies to let the water back out of the city after the surge - which could take up to 2 weeks.

How true do you think this is?

[Everose]

Our thoughts are with you, Hank, and with all others in its path.

[BigBank_Hank]

I've read that I'ts recommend you fill your gas tanks tonight before the market opens in the morning.

You could save yourself like 9 bucks if you have a 30 gallon tank just for not waiting til morning.

Consensus is 20 to 30 cent price jump on gas per gallon if New Orleans gets hammered at 9am like its projected. The refinery in New Orleans refines around 25% of our gas and its fixin to find itself under water.

The chemical disaster that's brewing down there is pretty scary if you consider all the stuff thats going to end up in the water if the city floods. They are talking about even having to blow up the levies to let the water back out of the city after the surge - which could take up to 2 weeks.

How true do you think this is?
Well we’re hunkered down and ready, as we can be.

I filled up on Friday because I wasn’t sure if we were going to need to leave so I fueled up just in case.

I don’t really see them blowing up the levees to get the water out. New Orleans is equipped with pumps all over the place and pumping the water out is the more sensible approach. In fact it’s so low there they have to pump water out all the time.

[hippychick]

I found this about the hurricane and gas prices, sound like alot of action in the Gulf.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9108072/
I wish you the best Hank that has to be scary, just get away safe.

[ruthie]

Oh boy..hope you and yours stay safe. sounds like things are kind of crazy at the dome..there is no food, so people have to carry what they can. How far are you from New Orleans, or are you smack dab in it?
Keeping you in my thoughts.

[MediaSlayer]

this hurricane is just as much a coincidence as that tsunami, which jacked up the price of the p4's a wee bit

[iMartin]

this hurricane is just as much a coincidence as that tsunami, which jacked up the price of the p4's a wee bit
I knew Bill Gates was the one responsible for hurrican Katrina. :angry:

[Biggles]

Hank

Hope you and yours are safe, looks most unpleasant over there at the moment.

[DanB]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4194698.stm

[brotherdoobie]

...has Hank dead in her sights.

Good luck, my friend. :(
yeah, good luck katrina!

Dave, sometimes I wonder about you. :dry:
Jamie, I hope for the best.

Peace bd

[MediaSlayer]

this hurricane is just as much a coincidence as that tsunami, which jacked up the price of the p4's a wee bit
I knew Bill Gates was the one responsible for hurrican Katrina. :angry:


he did get knighted,

and i meant the processors, i tried to buy one after the tsunami and the fry's sales rep said "we're all sold out right now, the demand is so high because the tsunami disrupted the production"

[BigBank_Hank]

Thank you all for you well wishes.

Thankfully we were spared from the worst of Katrina’s wrath and made it out safe and sound. It was really windy but we really didn’t see much rain.

It also looks like our friends in New Orleans, who mind you didn’t get off easy, were also spared from a direct impact. There is major flooding and damage there but nothing on the scale that was predicted for them.

There were some people south of New Orleans that decided to ride the storm out at home and were trapped when the rising water forced them onto their roofs to escape. They were stuck on the roof during 100 mph winds and no one could rescue them until the winds subsided some. If I were in their shoes I probably would have had a heart attack while stuck up there. Some people will never take these things seriously.

[RPerry]

Thank you all for you well wishes.

Thankfully we were spared from the worst of Katrina’s wrath and made it out safe and sound. It was really windy but we really didn’t see much rain.

It also looks like our friends in New Orleans, who mind you didn’t get off easy, were also spared from a direct impact. There is major flooding and damage there but nothing on the scale that was predicted for them.

There were some people south of New Orleans that decided to ride the storm out at home and were trapped when the rising water forced them onto their roofs to escape. They were stuck on the roof during 100 mph winds and no one could rescue them until the winds subsided some. If I were in their shoes I probably would have had a heart attack while stuck up there. Some people will never take these things seriously.

Glad to hear it. The stories I have seen on the news, and read are heart breaking. 55 confirmed dead at the time of this post, and I'm sure it will be more tomorrow. I too wish people would learn to leave when they are told. I know sometimes the storm changes course, as it also did in this case ( New Orleans could look worse tonight ), but in the end, isn't it better leave for no reason, than stay an give your live for nothing ?

[BigBank_Hank]

The floodwaters in New Orleans are worse this morning than they were yesterday. They can’t figure out why the water is continuing to rise because they can’t inspect the levees yet.

[GepperRankins]

you're alive :01:



hope your property didn't get too much broked

[Barbarossa]

It says on the BBC that 80% of New Orleans is flooded :ohmy:

But the French Quarter is OK apparently..?

[BigBank_Hank]

It says on the BBC that 80% of New Orleans is flooded :ohmy:

But the French Quarter is OK apparently..?
80% of the city is flooded.

The French Quarter was fine but now the waters have started to rise there as well. They are trying to evacuate some of the people who stayed because some of the shelters are starting to become flooded. They can’t figure out why the waters are still rising because they can’t get in to start assessing the damage.

As of this morning there are still hundreds of people still stuck on rooftops or stuck in attics still awaiting rescue. They’ve been up there for 24 plus hours and to make things worse the temperature with the heat index today is 101 degrees.

[BigBank_Hank]

Guys I don’t know if you can get a perspective of what’s going on here but it’s about as bad as it can get.

Anyone still in the city of New Orleans has to evacuate because there is no fresh water, no ice, and no electricity. The water that’s in the street is contaminated and is dangerous to be wading around in because it has sewage in it. Basically its uninhabitable and it may be like that for up to a month until the water can be pumped out, and at least two months to get electricity back to the entire city. The whole electricity infrastructure is destroyed and has to be built from scratch.

The entire city of Grand Isle is gone its under 20 plus feet of water. The city is even further south of New Orleans and it’s where the storm first came onto shore.

It’s absolutely heartbreaking to look at all this.

[muchspl3]

the grand was on the street in biloxi

[Skiz]

Fox News now says that there is NO drinkable water in the whole city due to a water main busting.

The rising water is now high enough that it has begun to enter the the Superdome, so now all of those people must now seek shelter elsewhere. Most presumably will go to various Red Cross shelters, but how they will get there is unknown.

Looting is happening on a MASSIVE scale. The police say that while they do not condone it, most of them are turning a blind eye to the looting of grocery stores.

The water is expected to rise no less than another 3 feet and possibly up to another 6 or 7 feet. It doesn't sound like much, but like the news stated, "...for the thousands of people living on rooftops and traped in attics, it could be a death sentence."

[sArA]

Glad you and your family are ok Hank, sounds like the mother of storms and there will be a lot of cleaning up to do....good luck to everyone involved in this.

[Rat Faced]

Martial Law in New Orleans now..

Glad your OK Hank... hope Stephanie Swift is too :unsure:

[Santa]

why is it taking so long for the worlds greatest power to help it's own people?

[DanB]

All the money got spent on war :ph34r:

[ZeroTolerance]

they shippin all of dem to my city

[BigBank_Hank]

why is it taking so long for the worlds greatest power to help it's own people?
I don’t think that you even understand the magnitude of this situation. There are more square miles considered disaster area’s than there are square miles in the state of Kansas.

[Rat Faced]

Where's all the National Guard..

Thought thats what their main thing was, State Disaster and Emergency assistance... :unsure:

[Santa]

why is it taking so long for the worlds greatest power to help it's own people?
I don’t think that you even understand the magnitude of this situation. There are more square miles considered disaster area’s than there are square miles in the state of Kansas.

it is massive - it is beyond extreme
so why is Bush on CNN saying that they don't have enough ships, and that the oil lines are being secured, people should avoid buying gas and only part of congress have met today and will meet next tuesday to discuss whether to give 10B dollars? when the people in the south need help since the moment they knew it was coming, which is more than a week ago.
wtf?
Sorry Hank not trying to flame but from over here the news looks rediculous.Like nothing is happening.
Is the press helping at all?

[Peerzy]

Been hearing a lot of ironic things about this.

Over 45% of the army and guard who could be helping are off fighting some random oil war.

The pollution America makes through buring F fuels is the cause of the storms, and is why they are getting worse and more frequent.

In Jan 2001 a list was created of the 5 top things bad that would happen to America. Number 1 was a hurricane in New Orleans, Number 2 was a terrorist attack on Washington, and Number 3 was an earthquake in California.

After Sept 11 more than 50% of the funds that were being put into stopping Numbers 1 & 3 were taking and put into defending from terrorists attacks.

Americans have looted stores and the Wal-Mart gun section has had all the weapons and ammo nicked. Way to go America.

A police officer was shot in the head yesterday after he attempted to stop looters.

TBH it's your own fault. You elected a man who put all the money that should have been for defence into an attack on another country. You are the ones who are nicking guns and shooting each other just for bottles of coke and such. You are the ones who sent of your army to fight a way then need them back home.

[Busyman]

why is it taking so long for the worlds greatest power to help it's own people?
I'm sorry, how long has it been? :huh:

I was without power for 3 days due to a mere thunderstorm.

Although this flooding is much more important, it is also a more logistical and massive problem.

So long? :huh: Your right, the water should have drained and all survivors finely picked out and rescued yesterday.

:dry:

[Santa]

yes your right - it would have wiped out the entire country of holland.

[BigBank_Hank]

Ok I’ll take as many of these as I can.

First off 100% complained about ONLY 10 billions dollars bent sent. Well the truth of the matter is 10 billion dollars is only for the first 20 days. It is being appropriated to give us the shot in the arm that we need to get things up and running.

Then he said that we needed help the moment that we knew it was coming. The truth is that the governor of Louisiana and Mississippi declared both states disaster areas two days before the storm even hit. That way emergency funds would be ready as soon as the wind stopped blowing.

Right now the main concern is to get the people rescued. There are thousands of people that need to be picked up off of rooftops and out of attics. Once they are all taken care of then they’ll switch into cleanup mode. It’s going to take a month to get the water out of the city best case scenario. I don’t know why you would think you could wave a magic wand and all would be taken care of.

Now Peerzy. If you knew anything about history it might just help. I think that you honestly believe that Bush invented hurricanes. Fact is they’ve been hitting coastal areas for a long time. The worst storms to ever strike the U.S. (prior to Katrina) were all before 1993. The unnamed storm that hit Galveston Bay, Camille, and Andrew were category all category 5 hurricanes when they made landfall.

And if we are in Iraq for oil then why is there a shortage of oil right now in the country? Why is the President asks us to conserve oil? According to you we should be swimming in it.

This is way worse than 9/11. The day after the attacks the city functioned, not here. Nothing is up and functioning in New Orleans, Gulf Port, and Biloxi. These are cites that are crippled that have to been rebuilt from the ground up.

[Rat Faced]

peerzy, there are too many people dead and dying for political capital to be made from your being Listerene.

Stop the trolling, please.




That said, i have to respond to this:


And if we are in Iraq for oil then why is there a shortage of oil right now in the country? Why is the President asks us to conserve oil? According to you we should be swimming in it.

Because its supply and demand... The way Iraq has been treated has ensured that there is less supply than demand, hense huge price hikes in the the price of a barrel.

The people to benefit from this, until Katrina, has been the Oil Companies not in the Middle East, which can sell at that high price without the terrorism that is causing the problem there ... which ones are those again? Who runs them? Family name of Bush comes to mind for interests in a few of them.. :dry:

The reason there is a shortage of Oil in the country, is that the companies sell to the buyers... which can be from anywhere in the world. US companies dont keep their product in the US, they sell to the highest bidder like everyone else.

The US is a "Net" importer of Oil.

It imports more than it exports, that does not mean it doesnt export.

[Everose]

Hank, I am not sure people understand the magnitude of this disaster, or the fact that no country could be totally prepared for such a disaster, even though you have certainly tried.

Right now there is the largest relief effort ever in US history going on in our country.

Local First responders are on the scene. Keep in mind........a lot of people who were first responders found themself trapped when the levy broke and the water rose in New Orleans.

People in the superdome now are being transferred to the Astrodome in Houston, 350 miles away, via bus, where their needs will be attended to. Many others are being taken to Georgia, etc. Helicopters have been air dropping food, water and supplies. The military is heavily involved, as are the Red Cross, Salvation Army, FEMA, National Guard, Coast Guard, and everyone that is able bodied and available. Five semis full of food, supplies, clothing, medicine,, water, and lots of other things have already left my area.....with thousands of dollars being sent from people and corporations in this area. In my small area alone there has already been $700,000.00's alone donated to the relief effort. All states are sending work crews in to work on infrastructure, and thousands of people are headed that way to do all they can do. Schoolchildren are even collecting money from their piggy banks for the relief fund and efforts.

100%....thanks for asking and for your genuine concern about your fellow human beings, regardless of their nationality, or leaders.

[Busyman]

Been hearing a lot of ironic things about this.

Over 45% of the army and guard who could be helping are off fighting some random oil war.

The pollution America makes through buring F fuels is the cause of the storms, and is why they are getting worse and more frequent.

In Jan 2001 a list was created of the 5 top things bad that would happen to America. Number 1 was a hurricane in New Orleans, Number 2 was a terrorist attack on Washington, and Number 3 was an earthquake in California.

After Sept 11 more than 50% of the funds that were being put into stopping Numbers 1 & 3 were taking and put into defending from terrorists attacks.

Americans have looted stores and the Wal-Mart gun section has had all the weapons and ammo nicked. Way to go America.

A police officer was shot in the head yesterday after he attempted to stop looters.

TBH it's your own fault. You elected a man who put all the money that should have been for defence into an attack on another country. You are the ones who are nicking guns and shooting each other just for bottles of coke and such. You are the ones who sent of your army to fight a way then need them back home.
Why yes....yes I would kick your teeth in.

:dry:

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

Americans have looted stores and the Wal-Mart gun section has had all the weapons and ammo nicked. Way to go America.

Very good Peerzy, Americans live in America. Now, can you tell us who lives in Brazil?

If Michael Moore had done a documentary on say, Eckard's, your statement would have read "Americans have looted stores and the Eckard's gun section has had all the weapons and ammo nicked. Way to go America." Recycled bullshit, is still bullshit kid.

[Peerzy]

Americans have looted stores and the Wal-Mart gun section has had all the weapons and ammo nicked. Way to go America.

Very good Peerzy, Americans live in America. Now, can you tell us who lives in Brazil?

If Michael Moore had done a documentary on say, Eckard's, your statement would have read "Americans have looted stores and the Eckard's gun section has had all the weapons and ammo nicked. Way to go America." Recycled bullshit, is still bullshit kid.

[Busyman]

Very good Peerzy, Americans live in America. Now, can you tell us who lives in Brazil?

If Michael Moore had done a documentary on say, Eckard's, your statement would have read "Americans have looted stores and the Eckard's gun section has had all the weapons and ammo nicked. Way to go America." Recycled bullshit, is still bullshit kid.
What a post Peerzy. :dry:

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

nm, board was being silly

[Busyman]

nvm

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

I'm sorry, you have obviously set the standard to high for the rest of us.
:blink:

I apologize, the way your post looked made it seem you were speaking to me. But when I quoted you, it became obvious you were speaking to peerzy. The lack of him adding anything more to his quote was playing with thread.

[Peerzy]

Americans have looted stores and the Wal-Mart gun section has had all the weapons and ammo nicked. Way to go America.

Very good Peerzy, Americans live in America. Now, can you tell us who lives in Brazil?

If Michael Moore had done a documentary on say, Eckard's, your statement would have read "Americans have looted stores and the Eckard's gun section has had all the weapons and ammo nicked. Way to go America." Recycled bullshit, is still bullshit kid.

The French :unsure:

I didn't even watch all of BFC, i said Wal-Mart because the fact is, thats what the news had, it had footage of people in a Wal-Mart (Note: Not a Eckard's) nicking guns. So you're saying that because theres a film about Wal-Mart and guns we should refrain from using those two words in the same sentence, even if it's really whats happening? We must bend to truth now because you don't want two words that featured in a film together, a film which i saw about half of, then switched off cause it was shit?

@RF - I wasn't flaming or anything, it's just something like was flagged 4 years ago as a major threat and the American Government did fuck all about it.

@Busy - Cool, then you loot the Wal_Mart and take your gun count up the same level as your IQ count, a massive 12.


Now Peerzy. If you knew anything about history it might just help. I think that you honestly believe that Bush invented hurricanes. Fact is they’ve been hitting coastal areas for a long time.


Nope, Bush didn't invest hurricanes (i doubt he can even spell it), but he could have done a hell of a lot more to stop the damage being so high. Did Bush invent Terrorism? Nope, could he have done more to stop September 11th? Yes.


Also my above post which was blank was supposed to be this one, but Firefox went all crazy and froze for a minute or two, not really sure what happened.

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

Very good Peerzy, Americans live in America. Now, can you tell us who lives in Brazil?

If Michael Moore had done a documentary on say, Eckard's, your statement would have read "Americans have looted stores and the Eckard's gun section has had all the weapons and ammo nicked. Way to go America." Recycled bullshit, is still bullshit kid.

The French :unsure:

I didn't even watch all of BFC, i said Wal-Mart because the fact is, thats what the news had, it had footage of people in a Wal-Mart (Note: Not a Eckard's) nicking guns. So you're saying that because theres a film about Wal-Mart and guns we should refrain from using those two words in the same sentence, even if it's really whats happening? We must bend to truth now because you don't want two words that featured in a film together, a film which i saw about half of, then switched off cause it was shit?

@RF - I wasn't flaming or anything, it's just something like was flagged 4 years ago as a major threat and the American Government did fuck all about it.


Did the news footage also show police officers removing guns and ammo from stores so they cannot be looted? No, I quess that flew under their radar. You mention all the looters, I'm amazed to find out all the world's looters are in America apparently, but you never mention all the people leaving their homes from across the country to come and aid others. I quess the news didn't show that part, or else you would have mentioned it since you repeat whatever the news says or shows.

And what exactly would you do if you had warnings 4 years ago? Force all the people to move out of the area? Apparently you know a secret the rest of the world doesn't know about to stopping hurricanes. Mighty impressive knowledge you have there...

[Peerzy]

The French :unsure:

I didn't even watch all of BFC, i said Wal-Mart because the fact is, thats what the news had, it had footage of people in a Wal-Mart (Note: Not a Eckard's) nicking guns. So you're saying that because theres a film about Wal-Mart and guns we should refrain from using those two words in the same sentence, even if it's really whats happening? We must bend to truth now because you don't want two words that featured in a film together, a film which i saw about half of, then switched off cause it was shit?

@RF - I wasn't flaming or anything, it's just something like was flagged 4 years ago as a major threat and the American Government did fuck all about it.


Did the news footage also show police officers removing guns and ammo from stores so they cannot be looted? No, I quess that flew under their radar. You mention all the looters, I'm amazed to find out all the world's looters are in America apparently, but you never mention all the people leaving their homes from across the country to come and aid others. I quess the news didn't show that part, or else you would have mentioned it since you repeat whatever the news says or shows.

And what exactly would you do if you had warnings 4 years ago? Force all the people to move out of the area? Apparently you know a secret the rest of the world doesn't know about to stopping hurricanes. Mighty impressive knowledge you have there...


The News footage showed an Officer with a shotgun walking round town pointing it at people and telling them to get out of town and stop looting, which was a good thing, im not totally anti American.

Please quote me where i saw all the worlds looters are in America, or where i even implied it :blink:

I did not repeat everything that the news showed either, i simply selected a piece of news that i felt helped back up my point.

4 years ago, a hurricane attacking New O was the number 1 major risk of life to Americans, above terrorism, above earthquakes, above all of that. Later that year, the number 2 major risk of life to Americans happened. So what do you do? You cut as much funding as you possibly could from stopping and protecting from hurricanes and earthquakes.

Should we have forced all the people out of the area? No, you should have contined to fund and install protection instead of putting all the money into a war about WMD (Which were never found, ever.)

America new that the levees would not stand a level 5 hurricane, they were high enough, just not strong enough. So what happens when America see's a level 5 hurricane on the way? Shall we warn the people? Nah, lets keep it a secret and hope no one notices :pinch:

[Busyman]

The French :unsure:

I didn't even watch all of BFC, i said Wal-Mart because the fact is, thats what the news had, it had footage of people in a Wal-Mart (Note: Not a Eckard's) nicking guns. So you're saying that because theres a film about Wal-Mart and guns we should refrain from using those two words in the same sentence, even if it's really whats happening? We must bend to truth now because you don't want two words that featured in a film together, a film which i saw about half of, then switched off cause it was shit?

@RF - I wasn't flaming or anything, it's just something like was flagged 4 years ago as a major threat and the American Government did fuck all about it.


Did the news footage also show police officers removing guns and ammo from stores so they cannot be looted? No, I quess that flew under their radar. You mention all the looters, I'm amazed to find out all the world's looters are in America apparently, but you never mention all the people leaving their homes from across the country to come and aid others. I quess the news didn't show that part, or else you would have mentioned it since you repeat whatever the news says or shows.

And what exactly would you do if you had warnings 4 years ago? Force all the people to move out of the area? Apparently you know a secret the rest of the world doesn't know about to stopping hurricanes. Mighty impressive knowledge you have there...
You act like you've never seen AntiAmericanPeerzy post before.

He hates America and Americans...if that puts this into perspective. His posts will point out the worst of America and it's inhabitants.

He is a troller and it's only entertaining if, when you post, it's like talking to a terrorist that you can never actually put your hands on. Mmmk?

[BigBank_Hank]

That said, i have to respond to this:


And if we are in Iraq for oil then why is there a shortage of oil right now in the country? Why is the President asks us to conserve oil? According to you we should be swimming in it.

Because its supply and demand... The way Iraq has been treated has ensured that there is less supply than demand, hense huge price hikes in the the price of a barrel.

The people to benefit from this, until Katrina, has been the Oil Companies not in the Middle East, which can sell at that high price without the terrorism that is causing the problem there ... which ones are those again? Who runs them? Family name of Bush comes to mind for interests in a few of them.. :dry:

The reason there is a shortage of Oil in the country, is that the companies sell to the buyers... which can be from anywhere in the world. US companies dont keep their product in the US, they sell to the highest bidder like everyone else.

The US is a "Net" importer of Oil.

It imports more than it exports, that does not mean it doesnt export.
That’s just plain ridiculous. So according to you we invade a country to steal their oil but we don’t keep it for ourselves we sell it. Now we have a national crisis at hand and we have no oil for ourselves even though we use more than anyone else in the world, but we have plenty to sell to everyone else. Sounds logical.

[Peerzy]

Did the news footage also show police officers removing guns and ammo from stores so they cannot be looted? No, I quess that flew under their radar. You mention all the looters, I'm amazed to find out all the world's looters are in America apparently, but you never mention all the people leaving their homes from across the country to come and aid others. I quess the news didn't show that part, or else you would have mentioned it since you repeat whatever the news says or shows.

And what exactly would you do if you had warnings 4 years ago? Force all the people to move out of the area? Apparently you know a secret the rest of the world doesn't know about to stopping hurricanes. Mighty impressive knowledge you have there...
You act like you've never seen AntiAmericanPeerzy post before.

He hates America and Americans...if that puts this into perspective. His posts will point out the worst of America and it's inhabitants.

He is a troller and it's only entertaining if, when you post, it's like talking to a terrorist that you can never actually put your hands on. Mmmk?


Im as anti American as you are a blind pro american.

It's your view, your welcome to it. In my eyes your wrong, your eyes im wrong. Personally i know America isn't as bad as my posts make out, but im sure you know that America isn't as good as you try to make it, you defend America just for the sake of arguements, the same as a lot of the time i agrue anti america.

Im sure if you could see America from my eyes and from where i live in the world you would be anti american, same as if iwas in your location and viewing things from your eyes and brought up like you i would be very pro american.

I don't dislike you, Busy (much) infact at times i enjoy your pro american view point.

Personally i agree to disagree, as much as im keen to know why america is so good im sure your wondering how i could find america so bad.

[Busyman]

You act like you've never seen AntiAmericanPeerzy post before.

He hates America and Americans...if that puts this into perspective. His posts will point out the worst of America and it's inhabitants.

He is a troller and it's only entertaining if, when you post, it's like talking to a terrorist that you can never actually put your hands on. Mmmk?


Im as anti American as you are a blind pro american.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
You gotta be shittin' me!!!! :lol: :lol:

[j2k4]

Hmmm.

Mt. St. Helens is still emitting the occasional rumble; Bush had better pump big government bucks (taxpayer money, BTW) into emergency research and development of a giant cork, but evacuate the entire state of Washington indefinitely, just in case.

Another thing-

Every time I get pissy with certain people on this board, my posts disappear; a guy could get the idea that the imminence of the problem could be forecast as easily as a hurricane.

I wonder if I could interest Mr. Bush in heading the problem off at the pass with a massive infusion of funds and a pre-positioned archival back-up.

I just thought of something else for you, Peerzy-

If you believe Bush's policies have caused not only the hurricanes but tweaked them to especially deadly effect, then possibly you should acknowledge the power of a much Higher Power which, it is easily deduced, must be responsible for steering these storms on so unerring a path as to punish the citizens of the U.S. so unrelentingly for their hubris.

[Peerzy]

I just thought of something else for you, Peerzy-

If you believe Bush's policies have caused not only the hurricanes but tweaked them to especially deadly effect, then possibly you should acknowledge the power of a much Higher Power which, it is easily deduced, must be responsible for steering these storms on so unerring a path as to punish the citizens of the U.S. so unrelentingly for their hubris.

I have never said Bush caused the hurricane or tweaked it. I said he failed to act in preventing them from causing such massive damage and the high number of deaths.

[BigBank_Hank]

I just thought of something else for you, Peerzy-

If you believe Bush's policies have caused not only the hurricanes but tweaked them to especially deadly effect, then possibly you should acknowledge the power of a much Higher Power which, it is easily deduced, must be responsible for steering these storms on so unerring a path as to punish the citizens of the U.S. so unrelentingly for their hubris.

I have never said Bush caused the hurricane or tweaked it. I said he failed to act in preventing them from causing such massive damage and the high number of deaths.
Really?

The pollution America makes through buring F fuels is the cause of the storms, and is why they are getting worse and more frequent.
And didn’t you say in my other thread (before I asked for it to be removed) that it was his policies that led to this?

[Busyman]

I have never said Bush caused the hurricane or tweaked it. I said he failed to act in preventing them from causing such massive damage and the high number of deaths.
Really?

The pollution America makes through buring F fuels is the cause of the storms, and is why they are getting worse and more frequent.
And didn’t you say in my other thread (before I asked for it to be removed) that it was his policies that led to this?
Of course. Blame Bush for a natural disaster. :dry:



His real name is Sir August de Wynter.

[Peerzy]

I have never said Bush caused the hurricane or tweaked it. I said he failed to act in preventing them from causing such massive damage and the high number of deaths.
Really?

The pollution America makes through buring F fuels is the cause of the storms, and is why they are getting worse and more frequent.
And didn’t you say in my other thread (before I asked for it to be removed) that it was his policies that led to this?

So Bush is America now :blink:

[j2k4]

So Bush is America now :blink:

It's your story, you tell it.

[Peerzy]

So Bush is America now :blink:

It's your story, you tell it.


I did already, then Busyman & Hank tried to prove me wrong, shame there not too good at it, otherwise i would have been in deep shit :pinch:

[BigBank_Hank]

Ok you little prick is this clear enough for you?

Bush said something like he wouldn't stop making so many green house gases

That’s your quote from This (http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1122664&postcount=2) thread.

[Everose]

Really?

The pollution America makes through buring F fuels is the cause of the storms, and is why they are getting worse and more frequent.
And didn’t you say in my other thread (before I asked for it to be removed) that it was his policies that led to this?

So Bush is America now :blink:




Criminetly, Peerzy. Self analysis. Took you long enough to get to this. :lol: :lol:

[Peerzy]

Ok you little prick is this clear enough for you?

Bush said something like he wouldn't stop making so many green house gases

That’s your quote from This (http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1122664&postcount=2) thread.


Moi, a little prick :ohmy:

Your right you got me, however Bush isn't the one making the green house gases, it's the chemicals he uses :rolleyes:

[Busyman]

It's your story, you tell it.


I did already, then Busyman & Hank tried to prove me wrong, shame there not too good at it, otherwise i would have been in deep shit :pinch:
You are a shit reader. I never tried to prove you wrong.

He hates America and Americans...if that puts this into perspective. His posts will point out the worst of America and it's inhabitants.

He is a troller and it's only entertaining if, when you post, it's like talking to a terrorist that you can never actually put your hands on. Mmmk?
You point out some shit in American news. Why would I try to prove you wrong?

You are just a troller simple and plain.

Rodding or whateverthefuck is trolling.

[Peerzy]

I did already, then Busyman & Hank tried to prove me wrong, shame there not too good at it, otherwise i would have been in deep shit :pinch:
You are a shit reader. I never tried to prove you wrong.

He hates America and Americans...if that puts this into perspective. His posts will point out the worst of America and it's inhabitants.

He is a troller and it's only entertaining if, when you post, it's like talking to a terrorist that you can never actually put your hands on. Mmmk?
You point out some shit in American news. Why would I try to prove you wrong?

You are just a troller simple and plain.

Rodding or whateverthefuck is trolling.

Nope, see you Americans, American-ise everything. I saw it on British news, by British reporters, for the British watched, nothing American about my news thank you very much. I never mentioned once where i saw the news and by now even an American must have realised im not American myself. Mind you they do constantly raise the bar on stupidity.


You are just a troller simple and plain.

If im a toller with my anti American views, your a toller in the sense with your pro American views.

[tracydani]

I'm pretty sure he meant news about America not specifically American News programs.


How can you guys actually think this help can come any faster? But I am sure that if it did come faster, you would then be bitching about why we couldn't help others just as fast :rolleyes:

Nothing will satisfy people who think like you. It will always be something else that is just not quite right.

Keep in mind, I am against many things my country has done, but that does not mean everything we do is wrong or half assed.

[Peerzy]

Keep in mind, I am against many things my country has done, but that does not mean everything we do is wrong or half assed.

Yes, America isn't all that bad and has done some great things over the years, i just find patriotic Americans like Busyman who seem to turn a blind eye to anything anti American rather silly. He attempts to paint a picture of a wonderful land of freedom, where millions of people can live. Instead it's a place where people live in fear because the Government and people have pissed off too many countries, invaded and attacked too many people and done too many silly and stupid actions over the last 6-7 years.

How anyone can justify the Iraq war is beyond me. WMD? What WMD? You never found any?

What if Iran & Pakistan tomorrow just decided to invade American? Send hundreds of thousands of troops to America and shoot anyone who stood in their way. America has WMD's, so if another country was to invade Amerca it would be the same as the Iraq war, eccept America really has WMD's and not Oil.

Im sure the first thing America would do if it was invaded would be to send off the biggest, baddest rocket they have aimed at the capital city of the invading country. Yet when Iraqi people and Bin Laden do the same (or turn objects such as planes) against America it's all:

"Oh My God, please God Save America the land of the free and right. God will have pitty on our souls, we don't deserve this, those stupid Arabs they have destroyed the American way of life."

That kinda bullshit.

Then comes the stupid Busy patriotic speech:

"By god, these Terrorists will not win! America will continue to fight for whats right, and we will not give in. America is Gods land, and we're not gonna let someone take this land from us. Lets gett'em boys!"

But like i said, not everything American is bad, Burger King's quite nice really :01:

[Everose]

Peerzy:

I grew up in a family with three sisters. We are very close now. But while growing up, we definitely did our share of fighting with each other. I still have scars, and I am sure they do too! :D

I guess I am trying to explain something on a very basic level to you.

There were many times my sisters did things I didn't like. Many times they did things I hated and detested. You can bet your bottom dollar that I had my eyes wide open when it came to my sisters, and they had theirs open with me.

Funny thing is.......we did all this fighting with each other but when one of us was attacked from someone outside the family, unfairly or not.........we could always count on each other's support and loyalty. It did not mean we couldn't see our sister's own actions might have not helped the situation, might even have brought the situation on themselves. We were family and the fact that we disagreed with what each other did sometimes did not change that.

This type of loyalty is not a blind loyalty. It is not a bad thing, it is actually to be commended.

I have to laugh at your comments about Busyman's blind eye to anything anti-American. Do you actually read his posts?

Many, many Americans are filled with conflict within these days. We don't all agree with each other, or our government. What country does?

You see, we are aware of many of our own faults and our own governments faults. We listen to advice from other people outside our country. We listen to their views, especially when they are helpful and constructive opinions.

I can only speak for myself here, but when all is said......when the day is done...........all is considered..........I am very proud to be American.

[peat moss]

How did this thread turn in to an anti American bashing ? Seems like a chicken shit thing to kick soneone when their down. I'm not American either and have my own issues with the Bush adminitration , softwood duties being one .

I'm sure this disaster will keep us flaming long after its cleaned up tho. I could n't help but be moved while reading Bighanks posts. I wish the Canadians would get off their asses and help more too.

[Peerzy]

Peerzy:

I grew up in a family with three sisters. We are very close now. But while growing up, we definitely did our share of fighting with each other. I still have scars, and I am sure they do too! :D

I guess I am trying to explain something on a very basic level to you.

There were many times my sisters did things I didn't like. Many times they did things I hated and detested. You can bet your bottom dollar that I had my eyes wide open when it came to my sisters, and they had theirs open with me.

Funny thing is.......we did all this fighting with each other but when one of us was attacked from someone outside the family, unfairly or not.........we could always count on each other's support and loyalty. It did not mean we couldn't see our sister's own actions might have not helped the situation, might even have brought the situation on themselves. We were family and the fact that we disagreed with what each other did sometimes did not change that.

This type of loyalty is not a blind loyalty. It is not a bad thing, it is actually to be commended.

I have to laugh at your comments about Busyman's blind eye to anything anti-American. Do you actually read his posts?

Many, many Americans are filled with conflict within these days. We don't all agree with each other, or our government. What country does?

You see, we are aware of many of our own faults and our own governments faults. We listen to advice from other people outside our country. We listen to their views, especially when they are helpful and constructive opinions.

I can only speak for myself here, but when all is said......when the day is done...........all is considered..........I am very proud to be American.


The British are different. Were not sheep. We don't all grab a giant American flag and 3 uzi's whenever we hear we invaded someone new. From what i've read of Busymans post's he hasn't posted anything negative about his governments actions with the Iraq war and what followed. He also for some reason needs 7 guns in his house (for protection of course)

So if Iran invaded America, because America has WMD's (the same reason you gave to invade Iraq) what would the American government do?

"Lets gett'em boys"

[peat moss]

I see the EU is helping with the oil crisis caused by the storm .


http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=a1mnV.ttx7.0&refer=home

[ziggyjuarez]

I seen this live on tV today and i found it at this site.
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Anderson-Cooper-Landrieu-Katrina1.wmv
Cooper started the interview this way:


Cooper: "Does the federal government bear any responsibility for what is happening, should they apologize for what is happening now?"

Landrieu put on a happy face and thanked all the wonderful politicians for showing their support. I mean WTF? Everyone is worried about their own asses and doing little if anything for the people on the ground.

[Busyman]

You are a shit reader. I never tried to prove you wrong.

He hates America and Americans...if that puts this into perspective. His posts will point out the worst of America and it's inhabitants.

He is a troller and it's only entertaining if, when you post, it's like talking to a terrorist that you can never actually put your hands on. Mmmk?
You point out some shit in American news. Why would I try to prove you wrong?

You are just a troller simple and plain.

Rodding or whateverthefuck is trolling.

Nope, see you Americans, American-ise everything. I saw it on British news, by British reporters, for the British watched, nothing American about my news thank you very much. I never mentioned once where i saw the news and by now even an American must have realised im not American myself. Mind you they do constantly raise the bar on stupidity.


You are just a troller simple and plain.

If im a toller with my anti American views, your a toller in the sense with your pro American views.
Are you that stupid? It's in American news. You are really shit at reading and raised the bar for stupidity.

..and wtf are you talking about? I said nothing about hitting dinner bells. I said you are a troller. :huh:

You've obviously proven that you strive to have common sense when to everyone else it's simply....common.

[Busyman]

From what i've read of Busymans post's he hasn't posted anything negative about his governments actions with the Iraq war and what followed. He also for some reason needs 7 guns in his house (for protection of course).
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Make no mistake. I am a patriot. However, you need to go back to skewul.

RIF

[Peerzy]

Yes, RIF indeed :huh:

[GepperRankins]

why should anyone donate?

not saying this from a selfish anti american point of view. it's disgusting to see the government asking the civilians that they tax, to give them money to do the job the tax should pay for.

nice little civil war you got going down there :happy: power to the people!1! :01:

[tracydani]

I see the EU is helping with the oil crisis caused by the storm .


http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=a1mnV.ttx7.0&refer=home

Thanks guys :)

[Rat Faced]

@ Hank,

yes your Oil Companies sell to the highest bidder just like everyone else's does. Thats why you pay $70 a barrel, just like everyone else.

US is also the 15th largest exporter of Gas.

@ Peerzy,

Stop it already.

I havent read the last few pages, but from what i read prior to that..

Just about everyone that had transport and wished to left prior to the Hurricane, leaving all those that didnt have transport ie: The Poorest, to fend for themselves.

5 days after the hurricane, there is finally a convoy delivering Food and Water.. call me cynical that its the same day as Bush decides to get off his fat arse and visit.

However, for 4 days 1000's of people have been without food and water, in the richest country on Earth. Im bloody sure I and most people on this board (especially those with kids) would also be looting to survive.

There's also huge, uncontrolled crime, so id also be getting me a bloody gun to protect my familly from a lot of other desperate people!!! And so would you be, in the same situation.



It shocked the hell out of me yesterday, when the Mayor of New Orleans was telling the world that 95% of the looters were trying to find food and water.. that the President of the USA announced there should be zero tolerance on looting.

In other words, shoot those that want to eat and drink, let them wait 'till I get there with the convoy. Way to go... :ph34r:

[Rat Faced]

why should anyone donate?

not saying this from a selfish anti american point of view. it's disgusting to see the government asking the civilians that they tax, to give them money to do the job the tax should pay for.

nice little civil war you got going down there :happy: power to the people!1! :01:

Because those taxes pay for the infrastructure, not the business' that keep people alive.

Nor the little people that couldnt afford insurance (and those that the insurance companies rip off).

The donations to charity will help rebuild the community, not the bloody roads that the taxes will.

[BigBank_Hank]

Hold up just one second Rat. You can’t eat tennis shoes, jewelry, Cadillac’s, electronics, firearms, and school buses all of which have been stolen. They are only going after the one, which are stealing to try to profit from this situation. The ones that armed and dangerous and terrorizing the people there are the people that the National Guard is going after. The people who are stealing food and water and not being targeted by the police.

[Rat Faced]

I agree, that 5% are scumbags and deserve everything you can throw at them.

However, they are all looters.

Zero Tollerance only has one meaning in this context.

The Police, the Mayor and the National Guard... NONE of these people have mentioned zero tollerance. Only one guy...



BTW: If there were buses to be stolen, why werent they used to evaquate before the Hurricane?

Actually, i saw pictures of a depot full of school buses under water.. why werent they all used?

[BigBank_Hank]

The buses that were stolen were actually high jacked while in route to take them to Houston. The people on the bus threatened the bus driver, he stopped the bus they commandeered the bus and god knows where they are now. This happened more than once so there are now some members of the guard have to accompany the buses.

[ZeroTolerance]

i stay in houston , i would took one too if i was stranded , foodless, waterless and aint have nothin, now houston is now offically new orleans home. they doing all types of stuff down here, car jacking , its krazy down here for real for real

[ZeroTolerance]

I agree, that 5% are scumbags and deserve everything you can throw at them.

However, they are all looters.

Zero Tollerance only has one meaning in this context.

The Police, the Mayor and the National Guard... NONE of these people have mentioned zero tollerance. Only one guy...



BTW: If there were buses to be stolen, why werent they used to evaquate before the Hurricane?

Actually, i saw pictures of a depot full of school buses under water.. why werent they all used?


people are literally dying because of not getting food water and medicine,not taking baths , dirty clothes. now u tell me u wouldnt try to do anything to survive, i understand where u comming from , some are just looting for the want but some are looting for the need, i heard first hand stories , the gov't draggin their azzes to help them folks down there and one reason why is because they are black o yes i said it its because they are black point blank

[Everose]

I have just heard where over 60 countries have offered assistance. No offer has been turned down. I want to thank all who care. Even Sri Lanka. And they have definitely had their own disaster to deal with.

[Everose]

@ Hank,

yes your Oil Companies sell to the highest bidder just like everyone else's does. Thats why you pay $70 a barrel, just like everyone else.

US is also the 15th largest exporter of Gas.

@ Peerzy,

Stop it already.

I havent read the last few pages, but from what i read prior to that..

Just about everyone that had transport and wished to left prior to the Hurricane, leaving all those that didnt have transport ie: The Poorest, to fend for themselves.

5 days after the hurricane, there is finally a convoy delivering Food and Water.. call me cynical that its the same day as Bush decides to get off his fat arse and visit.

However, for 4 days 1000's of people have been without food and water, in the richest country on Earth. Im bloody sure I and most people on this board (especially those with kids) would also be looting to survive.

There's also huge, uncontrolled crime, so id also be getting me a bloody gun to protect my familly from a lot of other desperate people!!! And so would you be, in the same situation.



It shocked the hell out of me yesterday, when the Mayor of New Orleans was telling the world that 95% of the looters were trying to find food and water.. that the President of the USA announced there should be zero tolerance on looting.

In other words, shoot those that want to eat and drink, let them wait 'till I get there with the convoy. Way to go... :ph34r:


RF, I am concerned that you believe no water and food was brought in by all means unavailable until today. I don't understand this belief, whether it is lack of news that you are receiving or what.

Leadership at the local level is crucial. If anything, this will be a wake up call to Governors to do everthing they can to prepare for and secure their state in such disasters until the assistance they are responsible for requesting (after all...they are the ones on site who are a lot better to ascertain their citizens needs.) arrive.

I also reiterate this is the worst disaster on record in the United States.

[peat moss]

I found this, if anything it's raw and honest . Its a blog from people holed up in their office .





http://news.zdnet.com/Blog+offers+rare+glimpse+inside+the+chaos/2100-9588_22-5846830.html?part=netscape-zdnet&tag=mynetscape&subj=technews

[j2k4]

I find myself wondering what this thread would be like if Americans didn't post here.

[BigBank_Hank]

Ok guys this is the assessment of the week that transpired.

The Governor of the state had no worst case scenario plan for any situation like this. She only had 7,000 troops to respond to what went is going on in N.O. even though there was a week to prepare. The Mayor of N.O. who is on TV ranting an raving about getting help also had no worst case scenario plan and he did ask the Governor for help in advance even though he had a week to prepare.

So now we have the situation that’s unfolding there right now and everyone’s crying that the Federal government isn’t doing enough when it’s the Governor of the state and the Mayor of the city who are running things here. The Feds relief took so long to get there because the people who are in charge of the state don’t have a clue as to who to do so they blame Bush because it’s convenient. The President can only respond to what the local officials ask for and they didn’t ask for huge numbers of National Guardsmen, Military police, food, and water to be pre positioned and ready to go as soon as the weather calmed down. Now they’re all crying Bush Bush but they are the one’s who sat around for a week.

Now we have a giant mess in the city of N.O. and no one is in control. Nobody knows what the hell is going on and no one here seems to want to take chare of this situation. Someone has to step forward and take control of this so there can be one person in charge who calls the shots. Right now what we have is to many cooks in the kitchen and everyone is pulling in different directions instead of together. After 9/11 Rudy Guilani was the man in control and he called all the shots. We desperately need someone to take the reins of this so everything can start to coordinate.

Something better happen and fast.

[Guillaume]

I find myself wondering what this thread would be like if Americans didn't post here.

About the same. Some would post about about how ironic that catastrophe is, other would post messages of support.
And others would ask how to donate. I can't access the american red cross site BBH posted the other day. Any other NGO I could give to?

[GepperRankins]

I found this, if anything it's raw and honest . Its a blog from people holed up in their office .





http://news.zdnet.com/Blog+offers+rare+glimpse+inside+the+chaos/2100-9588_22-5846830.html?part=netscape-zdnet&tag=mynetscape&subj=technews
<

http://www.gnn.tv/headlines/4633/Desperation_Disorder_Survival_in_New_Orleans




j2. i imagine if there were no americans in this thread we would all agree. :P



so now your government is probably responsible for breakdown of law and order and thousands dead, and more importantly they lost 20% of their oil production are they going to look into this global warming thing?

[muchspl3]

anyone want some pics?

I zipped all my friends sent me from new orleans and gulfport its 9.33 MB so someone should post some in this thread of they feel so inclined
http://s46.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=05GG6ZZII933M226BU6CFIIM8M
I don't have time to upload all these pics....


edit another link
http://s24.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3ORXWRMT16FLR3GCIIPTN5BO8B

[peat moss]

I find myself wondering what this thread would be like if Americans didn't post here.


Good point friend I think I'll skip this forum for awhile not what I thought sharing was about ,sadly its political differences and I do n't have time for that when it involves a nation hurting . :(

I liked everrose's reponce , you know who your friends are in times of trouble ...... :)

[maebach]

anyone want some pics?

I zipped all my friends sent me from new orleans and gulfport its 9.33 MB so someone should post some in this thread of they feel so inclined
http://s46.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=05GG6ZZII933M226BU6CFIIM8M
I don't have time to upload all these pics....


edit another link
http://s24.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3ORXWRMT16FLR3GCIIPTN5BO8B

I took a look at them, sometimes I can't believe its America. The greatest coun try of em all. It's so close.

[Santa]

Ok guys this is the assessment of the week that transpired.

The Governor of the state had no worst case scenario plan for any situation like this. She only had 7,000 troops to respond to what went is going on in N.O. even though there was a week to prepare. The Mayor of N.O. who is on TV ranting an raving about getting help also had no worst case scenario plan and he did ask the Governor for help in advance even though he had a week to prepare.

So now we have the situation that’s unfolding there right now and everyone’s crying that the Federal government isn’t doing enough when it’s the Governor of the state and the Mayor of the city who are running things here. The Feds relief took so long to get there because the people who are in charge of the state don’t have a clue as to who to do so they blame Bush because it’s convenient. The President can only respond to what the local officials ask for and they didn’t ask for huge numbers of National Guardsmen, Military police, food, and water to be pre positioned and ready to go as soon as the weather calmed down. Now they’re all crying Bush Bush but they are the one’s who sat around for a week.

Now we have a giant mess in the city of N.O. and no one is in control. Nobody knows what the hell is going on and no one here seems to want to take chare of this situation. Someone has to step forward and take control of this so there can be one person in charge who calls the shots. Right now what we have is to many cooks in the kitchen and everyone is pulling in different directions instead of together. After 9/11 Rudy Guilani was the man in control and he called all the shots. We desperately need someone to take the reins of this so everything can start to coordinate.

Something better happen and fast.


thanks for explanation, after watching cnn last night that is the explanation i concluded - it sounds like beaurocratic political game world.
When i heard the mayor speak in an interview with wwl radio i thought he was some rapper from the streets - very undiplomatic eloquence which i liked.("man,dude,assholes,bleep,bleep") with alot of blaming - he even says i don't know if ill have a job after this interview..
i tried to find a recording of the interview - but both wwl radio and cnn seem to have removed them maybe because it is so "passionate".- or as you call ranting & raving - very down to earth guy.
heres a cuter version - http://dynamic.cnn.com/apps/tp/video/us/2005/08/31/sot.magin.mad.affl/video.ws.asx?NGUserID=false&adDEmas=deReg%3AR08%26deBand%3Ahi%26deDom%3Achello.no%26deSic%3D0%26deCoun%3Anor%26deDMA%3A-1%26deZip%3A0%26deGMT%3A+2

[whypikonme]

When something like this happens in Australia, it's a federal emergency as well as a state one, all resources are put into place, immediately. Our cities are far more isolated than yours too, but all the wheels are set in motion at the same time.

That this should be the responsibility of the state Governor, and responded to federally by request, is a disgrace.

[JPaul]

When something like this happens in Australia, it's a federal emergency as well as a state one, all resources are put into place, immediately. Our cities are far more isolated than yours too, but all the wheels are set in motion at the same time.

That this should be the responsibility of the state Governor, and responded to federally by request, is a disgrace.
You're an Australian then, Cobber.

Or did you emigrate there.

[Busyman]

After a went home from work yesterday, I was still having a problem with the telphone central office getting an ISDN line to work for the DC mayor's video conference system.........

So I'm on the phone (at home ffs 'cause it wasn't a field problem) back and forth with DC government technicians trying to tell them to sit tight....

I call a Verizon (my company) central office technician to run a test to see if we see the video conference equipment up.......

While she doing that I tell her, "There are alot of people pissed at the slow response." Mind you I had just seen Kanye West's remarks...it was late.

She says, "Well most of the them down there are on welfare anyway and they are just looking for another hand-out."

Bitch. :angry:

I tell her that this is a disaster and has nothing to do with social welfare, it's the most basic welfare...survival.

Mind you I didn't curse the bitch out 'cause it's work (off-the clock work though). :ermm:

[GepperRankins]

Ok guys this is the assessment of the week that transpired.

The Governor of the state had no worst case scenario plan for any situation like this. She only had 7,000 troops to respond to what went is going on in N.O. even though there was a week to prepare. The Mayor of N.O. who is on TV ranting an raving about getting help also had no worst case scenario plan and he did ask the Governor for help in advance even though he had a week to prepare.

So now we have the situation that’s unfolding there right now and everyone’s crying that the Federal government isn’t doing enough when it’s the Governor of the state and the Mayor of the city who are running things here. The Feds relief took so long to get there because the people who are in charge of the state don’t have a clue as to who to do so they blame Bush because it’s convenient. The President can only respond to what the local officials ask for and they didn’t ask for huge numbers of National Guardsmen, Military police, food, and water to be pre positioned and ready to go as soon as the weather calmed down. Now they’re all crying Bush Bush but they are the one’s who sat around for a week.

Now we have a giant mess in the city of N.O. and no one is in control. Nobody knows what the hell is going on and no one here seems to want to take chare of this situation. Someone has to step forward and take control of this so there can be one person in charge who calls the shots. Right now what we have is to many cooks in the kitchen and everyone is pulling in different directions instead of together. After 9/11 Rudy Guilani was the man in control and he called all the shots. We desperately need someone to take the reins of this so everything can start to coordinate.

Something better happen and fast.


thanks for explanation, after watching cnn last night that is the explanation i concluded - it sounds like beaurocratic political game world.
When i heard the mayor speak in an interview with wwl radio i thought he was some rapper from the streets - very undiplomatic eloquence which i liked.("man,dude,assholes,bleep,bleep") with alot of blaming - he even says i don't know if ill have a job after this interview..
i tried to find a recording of the interview - but both wwl radio and cnn seem to have removed them maybe because it is so "passionate".- or as you call ranting & raving - very down to earth guy.
heres a cuter version - http://dynamic.cnn.com/apps/tp/video/us/2005/08/31/sot.magin.mad.affl/video.ws.asx?NGUserID=false&adDEmas=deReg%3AR08%26deBand%3Ahi%26deDom%3Achello.no%26deSic%3D0%26deCoun%3Anor%26deDMA%3A-1%26deZip%3A0%26deGMT%3A+2
http://thepiratebay.org/details.php?id=3378111

[BigBank_Hank]

After a went home from work yesterday, I was still having a problem with the telphone central office getting an ISDN line to work for the DC mayor's video conference system.........

So I'm on the phone (at home ffs 'cause it wasn't a field problem) back and forth with DC government technicians trying to tell them to sit tight....

I call a Verizon (my company) central office technician to run a test to see if we see the video conference equipment up.......

While she doing that I tell her, "There are alot of people pissed at the slow response." Mind you I had just seen Kanye West's remarks...it was late.

She says, "Well most of the them down there are on welfare anyway and they are just looking for another hand-out."

Bitch. :angry:

I tell her that this is a disaster and has nothing to do with social welfare, it's the most basic welfare...survival.

Mind you I didn't curse the bitch out 'cause it's work (off-the clock work though). :ermm:
B while I don’t agree with her comments wholeheartedly she has a point. In a situation like this you have to want to help yourself and most of these people don’t want to. The majority that stayed even though they were told to leave for 2 or 3 days stayed because they thought that it would be safe, and if something happened someone would come to their rescue. Now they decided to stay and they didn’t stock up on water, food anything. They all figured that someone would be there for them if things got bad.

Where I live the storm wasn’t supposed to be bad, which thank god it wasn’t. The day before the storm I bought a ton of water, bread, sandwich meats, can goods and so on just in case things got rough here. Turns out that I didn’t need any of it but you know what none of that stuff will go bad and I’ll use all of it. I’ve been though this many times and you absolutely have to do for yourself and not be dependent on someone coming in to help. It’s a survival mode that I go into before something like this. I think about what I need to do to survive for a couple of days if need be.

[GepperRankins]

After a went home from work yesterday, I was still having a problem with the telphone central office getting an ISDN line to work for the DC mayor's video conference system.........

So I'm on the phone (at home ffs 'cause it wasn't a field problem) back and forth with DC government technicians trying to tell them to sit tight....

I call a Verizon (my company) central office technician to run a test to see if we see the video conference equipment up.......

While she doing that I tell her, "There are alot of people pissed at the slow response." Mind you I had just seen Kanye West's remarks...it was late.

She says, "Well most of the them down there are on welfare anyway and they are just looking for another hand-out."

Bitch. :angry:

I tell her that this is a disaster and has nothing to do with social welfare, it's the most basic welfare...survival.

Mind you I didn't curse the bitch out 'cause it's work (off-the clock work though). :ermm:
B while I don’t agree with her comments wholeheartedly she has a point. In a situation like this you have to want to help yourself and most of these people don’t want to. The majority that stayed even though they were told to leave for 2 or 3 days stayed because they thought that it would be safe, and if something happened someone would come to their rescue. Now they decided to stay and they didn’t stock up on water, food anything. They all figured that someone would be there for them if things got bad.

Where I live the storm wasn’t supposed to be bad, which thank god it wasn’t. The day before the storm I bought a ton of water, bread, sandwich meats, can goods and so on just in case things got rough here. Turns out that I didn’t need any of it but you know what none of that stuff will go bad and I’ll use all of it. I’ve been though this many times and you absolutely have to do for yourself and not be dependent on someone coming in to help. It’s a survival mode that I go into before something like this. I think about what I need to do to survive for a couple of days if need be.
they couldn't afford to leave and had nowhere to stay outside the projects. they didn't want to risk having their homes looted. they probably couldn't afford to get emergency food as it was the end of the month and they had barely enough money to live on anyway.

[Busyman]

After a went home from work yesterday, I was still having a problem with the telphone central office getting an ISDN line to work for the DC mayor's video conference system.........

So I'm on the phone (at home ffs 'cause it wasn't a field problem) back and forth with DC government technicians trying to tell them to sit tight....

I call a Verizon (my company) central office technician to run a test to see if we see the video conference equipment up.......

While she doing that I tell her, "There are alot of people pissed at the slow response." Mind you I had just seen Kanye West's remarks...it was late.

She says, "Well most of the them down there are on welfare anyway and they are just looking for another hand-out."

Bitch. :angry:

I tell her that this is a disaster and has nothing to do with social welfare, it's the most basic welfare...survival.

Mind you I didn't curse the bitch out 'cause it's work (off-the clock work though). :ermm:
B while I don’t agree with her comments wholeheartedly she has a point. In a situation like this you have to want to help yourself and most of these people don’t want to. The majority that stayed even though they were told to leave for 2 or 3 days stayed because they thought that it would be safe, and if something happened someone would come to their rescue. Now they decided to stay and they didn’t stock up on water, food anything. They all figured that someone would be there for them if things got bad.

Where I live the storm wasn’t supposed to be bad, which thank god it wasn’t. The day before the storm I bought a ton of water, bread, sandwich meats, can goods and so on just in case things got rough here. Turns out that I didn’t need any of it but you know what none of that stuff will go bad and I’ll use all of it. I’ve been though this many times and you absolutely have to do for yourself and not be dependent on someone coming in to help. It’s a survival mode that I go into before something like this. I think about what I need to do to survive for a couple of days if need be.
You're absolutely right Hank...

They should have walked to the next state or stocked up on food they had no money for. :dry:

She has no point.

Who cares what you stock up on if you can't carry it to your roof top. Fuck off. Your fucking house isn't submerged smart guy. Some people don't have cars and SUVs.

Fact is it's very possible that the way you and that bitch ass CO tech look at it, the Prez might look at it and see from the news the most of the folk there don't have pink toes. :ohmy: Quite possible. :pinch:

I remember some African country that decided they didn't want Jews around anymore. Israel did 24 hr airlifts to get them out.

How the fuck can you "don’t agree with her comments wholeheartedly" but "she has a point" anyway.

It's not like I quoted her for an entire paragraph. She made one statement.

[BigBank_Hank]

What did I tell you? You have to want to help yourself.

Not all of those that stayed couldn’t afford to. A lot of people that stayed said that they thought that if they could survive hurricane Camille they could survive anything. They were wrong.

[GepperRankins]

B while I don’t agree with her comments wholeheartedly she has a point. In a situation like this you have to want to help yourself and most of these people don’t want to. The majority that stayed even though they were told to leave for 2 or 3 days stayed because they thought that it would be safe, and if something happened someone would come to their rescue. Now they decided to stay and they didn’t stock up on water, food anything. They all figured that someone would be there for them if things got bad.

Where I live the storm wasn’t supposed to be bad, which thank god it wasn’t. The day before the storm I bought a ton of water, bread, sandwich meats, can goods and so on just in case things got rough here. Turns out that I didn’t need any of it but you know what none of that stuff will go bad and I’ll use all of it. I’ve been though this many times and you absolutely have to do for yourself and not be dependent on someone coming in to help. It’s a survival mode that I go into before something like this. I think about what I need to do to survive for a couple of days if need be.
You're absolutely right Hank...

They should have walked to the next state or stocked up on food they had no money for. :dry:

She has no point.

Who cares what you stock up on if you can't carry it to your roof top. Fuck off. Your fucking house isn't submerged smart guy. Some people don't have cars and SUVs.

Fact is it's very possible that the way you and that bitch ass CO tech look at it, the Prez might look at it and see from the news the most of the folk there don't have pink toes. :ohmy: Quite possible. :pinch:

I remember some African country that decided they didn't want Jews around anymore. Israel did 24 hr airlifts to get them out.

How the fuck can you "don’t agree with her comments wholeheartedly" but "she has a point" anyway.

It's not like I quoted her for an entire paragraph. She made one statement.
think about it busyman. "if i don't walk 300 miles in two days the government will give me money"


i know what i'd do

[Busyman]

What did I tell you? You have to want to help yourself.

Not all of those that stayed couldn’t afford to. A lot of people that stayed said that they thought that if they could survive hurricane Camille they could survive anything. They were wrong.
Oh damn they polled all those survivors. :ohmy: ...and they all said if "[If I] could survive hurricane Camille [I] could survive anything." :dry:

So the people that didn't get out should fuck off then 'cause they didn't walk to safety. Riiiight. Your dumbass comment fits only those who have the means.

The fact is we should be more about America than other countries.

Why the fuck didn't we tell the Iraqi's to help themselves in fighting Saddam?
Why the fuck are we losing more in (tax dollars and lives) in another fucking country fighting for freedom than some of our own domestic issues?

Mind you this has just started but it's a shit pattern.

Put American interests first then take care of other shit.

edit: and this shit is mostly because the levies broke. Who foresaw that?
You got elderly folks, women with newborns, etc....and then you've got

You have to want to help yourself.

[BigBank_Hank]

Listen I said that there were some that could have gotten out that didn’t. I know someone that lives in Biloxi and they have money and they didn’t leave even though we begged them to. Want to guess why? The house that they live in survived Camille. They survived the storm but the house didn’t. There were people in the city that could have left that didn’t is all I’m saying. Those people had money and chose to stay. Fats Domino is another example. He’s a very famous musician here in the state that’s very wealthy and stayed in his condo downtown.


and this shit is mostly because the levies broke. Who foresaw that?
Are you kidding me? Who saw that coming? People have been saying that for years and years now. Hurricanes aren’t something new here. Everyone in the whole damn city knew that the levees could not withstand a cat 4 storms on up, everyone. They were designed for storms up to cat 3 strength.

[Busyman]

Listen I said that there were some that could have gotten out that didn’t. I know someone that lives in Biloxi and they have money and they didn’t leave even though we begged them to. Want to guess why? The house that they live in survived Camille. They survived the storm but the house didn’t. There were people in the city that could have left that didn’t is all I’m saying. Those people had money and chose to stay. Fats Domino is another example. He’s a very famous musician here in the state that’s very wealthy and stayed in his condo downtown.


and this shit is mostly because the levies broke. Who foresaw that?
Are you kidding me? Who saw that coming? People have been saying that for years and years now. Hurricanes aren’t something new here. Everyone in the whole damn city knew that the levees could not withstand a cat 4 storms on up, everyone. They were designed for storms up to cat 3 strength.
Ahaaaaa...I knew that.

Guess who denied the money to fix them years ago? :dry:

Bush merged FEMA with HLS after 9/11 so they competed for money. Guess who won?

This happened and our borders are still porous. :dry:

Look at this bitch shit
Bullshit comforting (http://www.democraticunderground.com/images/homepage/20050903_bushcomfortvideo.wmv)

[RPerry]

Oh damn they polled all those survivors. :ohmy: ...and they all said if "[If I] could survive hurricane Camille [I] could survive anything." :dry:

So the people that didn't get out should fuck off then 'cause they didn't walk to safety. Riiiight. Your dumbass comment fits only those who have the means.


Sorry Busyman, but I watched the news that night as well, and saw many who thought Katrina was a joke. They were partying to the last minute on Burbon St. A bunch claimed " The media is just hyping this up". At the time most of those comments were made, Katrina was a catergory 5 storm. My heart goes out to some of the people who got caught up in this without a choice ( mostly children and wife's of asshole husbands/fathers who thought they had all the answers) and to the poor of New Orleans who had no choice of where to go.

[GepperRankins]

i'm guessing 90% of those caught up didn't have a choice

[Santa]

Why does the u.s. need to decide whether they will "accept" the offers of help money supplies etc from foreign countries?
does politics always have to be this sneaky?

[Busyman]

Oh damn they polled all those survivors. :ohmy: ...and they all said if "[If I] could survive hurricane Camille [I] could survive anything." :dry:

So the people that didn't get out should fuck off then 'cause they didn't walk to safety. Riiiight. Your dumbass comment fits only those who have the means.


Sorry Busyman, but I watched the news that night as well, and saw many who thought Katrina was a joke. They were partying to the last minute on Burbon St. A bunch claimed " The media is just hyping this up". At the time most of those comments were made, Katrina was a catergory 5 storm. My heart goes out to some of the people who got caught up in this without a choice ( mostly children and wife's of asshole husbands/fathers who thought they had all the answers) and to the poor of New Orleans who had no choice of where to go.
Sorry as well RP. Your first through third sentences get a "No :shit: ".

Your last is what I'm talking about quite obviously. :ermm:

I hope a couple news clips of partying don't give you the entire picture nor, in light of what has happened, should it matter.

[peat moss]

Why does the u.s. need to decide whether they will "accept" the offers of help money supplies etc from foreign countries?
does politics always have to be this sneaky?


I read the Swiss were offering their oil reserves , they have oil ?

[JPaul]

The fact is we should be more about America than other countries.

Why the fuck didn't we tell the Iraqi's to help themselves in fighting Saddam?
Why the fuck are we losing more in (tax dollars and lives) in another fucking country fighting for freedom than some of our own domestic issues?


The fact that the USA spends a lot on matters outside of the USA is contrary to the wishes of a lot of other people, not because of them.

It is very much a matter of "your choice".

[JPaul]

Why does the u.s. need to decide whether they will "accept" the offers of help money supplies etc from foreign countries?
does politics always have to be this sneaky?


I read the Swiss were offering their oil reserves , they have oil ?
They also have a navy.

[GepperRankins]

I read the Swiss were offering their oil reserves , they have oil ?
They also have a navy.
the army isn't much to worry about though, unless you're a bottle of beer :ermm:

[ziggyjuarez]

Dont we need a large area for nuclear waste :shifty:

[JPaul]

They also have a navy.
the army isn't much to worry about though, unless you're a bottle of beer :ermm:
Or a stone in a horse's shoe.

[BigBank_Hank]

I think that the majority of the people have been evacuated now. Not all of them but most of them have been taken to shelters. That begs the question what do we do with these people now? This is going to be a long term thing and I can’t see all of these people staying in sports arenas and convention centers for 6 months on up.

[Rat Faced]

edit: and this shit is mostly because the levies broke. Who foresaw that?

Lots of people for quite a while.

The Federal Money that was repairing and upkeeping the Levies stopped when Iraq started.. matter of priorities dontcha know.

The main break occurred in a section where the Feds had just told them to sod off, when begged for money to repair earlier this year... well, this isnt strictly true, The Whitehouse blocked it. ;)


Even though Hurricane Katrina has moved well north of the city, the waters may still keep rising in New Orleans. That's because Lake Pontchartrain continues to pour through a two-block-long break in the main levee, near the city's 17th Street Canal. With much of the Crescent City some 10 feet below sea level, the rising tide may not stop until it's level with the massive lake.

New Orleans had long known it was highly vulnerable to flooding and a direct hit from a hurricane. In fact, the federal government has been working with state and local officials in the region since the late 1960s on major hurricane and flood relief efforts. When flooding from a massive rainstorm in May 1995 killed six people, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA.

Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside.

Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars.

Newhouse News Service, in an article posted late Tuesday night at The Times-Picayune Web site, reported: "No one can say they didn't see it coming. ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation."

In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness.

On June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; told the Times-Picayune: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

Also that June, with the 2004 hurricane season starting, the Corps' project manager Al Naomi went before a local agency, the East Jefferson Levee Authority, and essentially begged for $2 million for urgent work that Washington was now unable to pay for. From the June 18, 2004 Times-Picayune:

"The system is in great shape, but the levees are sinking. Everything is sinking, and if we don't get the money fast enough to raise them, then we can't stay ahead of the settlement," he said. "The problem that we have isn't that the levee is low, but that the federal funds have dried up so that we can't raise them."

The panel authorized that money, and on July 1, 2004, it had to pony up another $250,000 when it learned that stretches of the levee in Metairie had sunk by four feet. The agency had to pay for the work with higher property taxes. The levee board noted in October 2004 that the feds were also now not paying for a hoped-for $15 million project to better shore up the banks of Lake Pontchartrain.

The 2004 hurricane season was the worst in decades. In spite of that, the federal government came back this spring with the steepest reduction in hurricane and flood-control funding for New Orleans in history. Because of the proposed cuts, the Corps office there imposed a hiring freeze. Officials said that money targeted for the SELA project -- $10.4 million, down from $36.5 million -- was not enough to start any new jobs.

There was, at the same time, a growing recognition that more research was needed to see what New Orleans must do to protect itself from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. But once again, the money was not there. As the Times-Picayune reported last Sept. 22:

"That second study would take about four years to complete and would cost about $4 million, said Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi. About $300,000 in federal money was proposed for the 2005 fiscal-year budget, and the state had agreed to match that amount. But the cost of the Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies, and the 2005 budget no longer includes the needed money, he said."

The Senate was seeking to restore some of the SELA funding cuts for 2006. But now it's too late.

One project that a contractor had been racing to finish this summer: a bridge and levee job right at the 17th Street Canal, site of the main breach on Monday.

The Newhouse News Service article published Tuesday night observed, "The Louisiana congressional delegation urged Congress earlier this year to dedicate a stream of federal money to Louisiana's coast, only to be opposed by the White House. ... In its budget, the Bush administration proposed a significant reduction in funding for southeast Louisiana's chief hurricane protection project. Bush proposed $10.4 million, a sixth of what local officials say they need."

Local officials are now saying, the article reported, that had Washington heeded their warnings about the dire need for hurricane protection, including building up levees and repairing barrier islands, "the damage might not have been nearly as bad as it turned out to be."


Source (http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313)

[Busyman]

Lots of people for quite a while.

The Federal Money that was repairing and upkeeping the Levies stopped when Iraq started.. matter of priorities dontcha know.

The main break occurred in a section where the Feds had just told them to sod off, when begged for money to repair earlier this year... well, this isnt strictly true, The Whitehouse blocked it. ;)


Even though Hurricane Katrina has moved well north of the city, the waters may still keep rising in New Orleans. That's because Lake Pontchartrain continues to pour through a two-block-long break in the main levee, near the city's 17th Street Canal. With much of the Crescent City some 10 feet below sea level, the rising tide may not stop until it's level with the massive lake.

New Orleans had long known it was highly vulnerable to flooding and a direct hit from a hurricane. In fact, the federal government has been working with state and local officials in the region since the late 1960s on major hurricane and flood relief efforts. When flooding from a massive rainstorm in May 1995 killed six people, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA.

Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside.

Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars.

Newhouse News Service, in an article posted late Tuesday night at The Times-Picayune Web site, reported: "No one can say they didn't see it coming. ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation."

In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness.

On June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; told the Times-Picayune: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

Also that June, with the 2004 hurricane season starting, the Corps' project manager Al Naomi went before a local agency, the East Jefferson Levee Authority, and essentially begged for $2 million for urgent work that Washington was now unable to pay for. From the June 18, 2004 Times-Picayune:

"The system is in great shape, but the levees are sinking. Everything is sinking, and if we don't get the money fast enough to raise them, then we can't stay ahead of the settlement," he said. "The problem that we have isn't that the levee is low, but that the federal funds have dried up so that we can't raise them."

The panel authorized that money, and on July 1, 2004, it had to pony up another $250,000 when it learned that stretches of the levee in Metairie had sunk by four feet. The agency had to pay for the work with higher property taxes. The levee board noted in October 2004 that the feds were also now not paying for a hoped-for $15 million project to better shore up the banks of Lake Pontchartrain.

The 2004 hurricane season was the worst in decades. In spite of that, the federal government came back this spring with the steepest reduction in hurricane and flood-control funding for New Orleans in history. Because of the proposed cuts, the Corps office there imposed a hiring freeze. Officials said that money targeted for the SELA project -- $10.4 million, down from $36.5 million -- was not enough to start any new jobs.

There was, at the same time, a growing recognition that more research was needed to see what New Orleans must do to protect itself from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. But once again, the money was not there. As the Times-Picayune reported last Sept. 22:

"That second study would take about four years to complete and would cost about $4 million, said Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi. About $300,000 in federal money was proposed for the 2005 fiscal-year budget, and the state had agreed to match that amount. But the cost of the Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies, and the 2005 budget no longer includes the needed money, he said."

The Senate was seeking to restore some of the SELA funding cuts for 2006. But now it's too late.

One project that a contractor had been racing to finish this summer: a bridge and levee job right at the 17th Street Canal, site of the main breach on Monday.

The Newhouse News Service article published Tuesday night observed, "The Louisiana congressional delegation urged Congress earlier this year to dedicate a stream of federal money to Louisiana's coast, only to be opposed by the White House. ... In its budget, the Bush administration proposed a significant reduction in funding for southeast Louisiana's chief hurricane protection project. Bush proposed $10.4 million, a sixth of what local officials say they need."

Local officials are now saying, the article reported, that had Washington heeded their warnings about the dire need for hurricane protection, including building up levees and repairing barrier islands, "the damage might not have been nearly as bad as it turned out to be."


Source (http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313)
Post 113. :ermm: ...but thanks anyway.

[Busyman]

I think that the majority of the people have been evacuated now. Not all of them but most of them have been taken to shelters. That begs the question what do we do with these people now? This is going to be a long term thing and I can’t see all of these people staying in sports arenas and convention centers for 6 months on up.
There will be an increase in crime to regions with refugees with it ballooning out to other areas.

[GepperRankins]

it sounds really bizarre to call americans in america refugees :ermm:

[NikkiD]

Well some people saw it coming, Busyman.

National Geographic, October 2004 (http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/index.html)

[GepperRankins]

i think busy's point was that everybody saw it coming but the republicans deicided to cut resources to spend elsewhere. namely iraq

[NikkiD]

i think busy's point was that everybody saw it coming but the republicans deicided to cut resources to spend elsewhere. namely iraq

I was replying to his post about not forseeing the levees breaking.

[RPerry]

Well some people saw it coming, Busyman.

National Geographic, October 2004 (http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/index.html)

Damn, I got chills reading that article. talk about predictions :ohmy:

[Busyman]

i think busy's point was that everybody saw it coming but the republicans deicided to cut resources to spend elsewhere. namely iraq

I was replying to his post about not forseeing the levees breaking.
Post 126 :ermm: but thanks anyway.

[Rat Faced]

But was the situation mis-underestiamated, or did they just not care?



Or both..

[Everose]

In reality, there many States in the running for Federal monies. Many feel their situations are the most important, and many left uncompleted could end up with disastrous results as this one did.

I don't agree with the war in Iraq. But I can't blame the Federal Funds not being there on the war in Iraq alone. There are only so many Federal Funds for special projects, war or no war. We could also say that if the Federal Government didn't give us the tax refunds they have given us, or if they hadn't given so much foreign aid, or if they hadn't given states and cities so many billions in grants for emergency preparedness since 9/11, the money would be there for the levy in New Orleans.

Any time I read an article like this that doesn't point these other facts out, and instead repeatedly blames the lack of fed funds for this project on only the Iraq war, imo it has been written for a single agenda somehow.

[BigBank_Hank]

Rose don’t forget Clinton and Gore were supposed Mr. environment and didn’t do a damn thing about the levees for 8 years that they were in office.

[GepperRankins]

192 billion, iraq cost. they needed only 60 million to fix the coast but only got 10.

[manker]

Rose don’t forget Clinton and Gore were supposed Mr. environment and didn’t do a damn thing about the levees for 8 years that they were in office.You can't temper a failing by saying that someone else failed too. You can't justify inaction by saying that someone else did also did nothing.

You're a mechanic, right? If you did a service on a car and the very next day the brakes failed and caused a fatal accident, would you sit back and console yourself that a competitor did likewise.

No, you would condemn yourself for shoddy workmanship.


I have no looks on Bush, but I don't think you'd find him taking that line. Poor show, Hank.

[Everose]

Rose don’t forget Clinton and Gore were supposed Mr. environment and didn’t do a damn thing about the levees for 8 years that they were in office.


Well, that is right. Many things to be taken into consideration, aren't there? It seems like we have had to spend so much money on natural disaster clean up that sometimes the prevention has to be delayed....especially if the project depends on a natural disaster that may or may not occur, and the funds are needed where they have occured first. And then, by golly, think of the federal projects that have been delayed for years at much expense because we needed to protect an endangered species.

You know, Florida had what......4 hurricanes last year? Was it a mistake to spend money there? Should the federal government have left those people to their own defenses and used that money to shore up this levee in case we happened to get this hundred year storm in New Orleans? I could hear the uproar, couldn't you?

Hindsight is hindsight. You always hope to learn from it, but when you are picking your priorities as far as federal funding goes.......you have a lot of very severe need projects to pick from.

Sorry, Manker, imo a bad call on your part. Hank never tried to make this a political thread. His concern was that a disaster happened and people needed help. But it has sure turned into a political thread. Sometimes you just get a belly full of it and have to throw some facts and common sense into the mix. :lol:

[BigBank_Hank]

Rose don’t forget Clinton and Gore were supposed Mr. environment and didn’t do a damn thing about the levees for 8 years that they were in office.You can't temper a failing by saying that someone else failed too. You can't justify inaction by saying that someone else did also did nothing.

You're a mechanic, right? If you did a service on a car and the very next day the brakes failed and caused a fatal accident, would you sit back and console yourself that a competitor did likewise.

No, you would condemn yourself for shoddy workmanship.


I have no looks on Bush, but I don't think you'd find him taking that line. Poor show, Hank.
You missed the point Manker. Clinton touted himself as being this big environmentalist and what did he do to help? You guys are acting like Bush just invented hurricanes and placing the blame square on his shoulders. I’m not blaming Clinton I’m just saying that he didn’t do anything either.

[manker]

I definitely didn't miss my own point, Hank.

However, you have. Completely.


Surely you can see what I'm getting at there.

[peat moss]

Why does every thread in here turn policital , or black versus white .Why doesn't the new's show a white guy looting a store to provide for his family for a change ?

I know I would be fighting tooth and nail for anything I could get .

In hindsight if it as me struggling to support my family, look out give me a gun your dead if you stand in my way. You can do what you what to me but don't fuck with my family . I'm sure thats how many feel when the chips are played.

[BigBank_Hank]

I definitely didn't miss my own point, Hank.

However, you have. Completely.


Surely you can see what I'm getting at there.
I do Manker. People here act like hurricanes are something new and are quick to point fingers at Bush. They act like he’s been the only President that the U.S. has had and every little thing that goes wrong is his fault.

[GepperRankins]

I definitely didn't miss my own point, Hank.

However, you have. Completely.


Surely you can see what I'm getting at there.
I do Manker. People here act like hurricanes are something new and are quick to point fingers at Bush. They act like he’s been the only President that the U.S. has had and every little thing that goes wrong is his fault.
people warned bush and had a plan to do the job, he slashed the budget for researching and fixing the levees several times. it is his fault.

[brotherdoobie]

I just sent 200.00 dollars from my pay, (which was 515.00 dollars) for disaster relief.
My 19 year old sister is in Louisiana helping with relief efforts.

Their are many, who are doing something other than using a horrible situation
for a soapbox, to spout their tired and tedious personal agendas.

Shame, on those who think words speak louder than actions.

bd

[GepperRankins]

I just sent 200.00 dollars from my pay, (which was 515.00 dollars) for disaster relief.
My 19 year old sister is in Louisiana helping with relief efforts.

Their are many, who are doing something other than using a horrible situation
for a soapbox, to spout their tired and tedious personal agendas.

Shame, on those who think words speak louder than actions.

bd
that's very good of you.


government is supposed to protect the people though. when there's a catastrophic failure that people have been warning about years and could have been prevented. to not take the government to task about this is ignorant, dangerous and stupid.

[brotherdoobie]

I just sent 200.00 dollars from my pay, (which was 515.00 dollars) for disaster relief.
My 19 year old sister is in Louisiana helping with relief efforts.

Their are many, who are doing something other than using a horrible situation
for a soapbox, to spout their tired and tedious personal agendas.

Shame, on those who think words speak louder than actions.

bd
that's very good of you.


government is supposed to protect the people though. when there's a catastrophic failure that people have been warning about years and could have been prevented. to not take the government to task about this is ignorant, dangerous and stupid.

I vote my conscience, my wallet and time are reserved for the practical.
Now, is not the time to debate the stupidity of our leadership.

Now...is the time for action.

Peace bd :)

[Cheese]

There will be a need for those in authority to be called to account after this is all cleared up, there is also a need for U.S. society as a whole to comprehend what the collective failure shows about the American way of life. So I'm not going to just blame Bush...




my conscience, my wallet

Did the latter help ease the former?

[tracydani]

There will be a need for those in authority to be called to account after this is all cleared up, there is also a need for U.S. society as a whole to comprehend what the collective failure shows about the American way of life. So I'm not going to just blame Bush...

I agree with you up until the comma. What follows is not aimed at you, but at what I see happening throughout any thread that deals with America when something go's wrong.


I know I will not say this clearly enough, but......

It seems as if the American public is being held to higher/different standards then the European population.

As I said somewhere in another thread, it is one thing to blame our leaders for particular shortcomings, but you cannot neccessarily blame the population for it as well. I understand we have to be held somewhat accountable because we put the politicians in their jobs in the first place.

I sort of recall another country somewhere off in Europe (one of those small floating countries) that has been giving the US quite a lot of support in areas that its own population claims to not support. How is it that the population does not get held up to the spotlight when things go wrong as well?

After all, the leadership of the small floating country has chosen to support us and by extension (and the fact that the population put them there) is just as at fault as us.

Yeah, I know that the support above is given in another separate situation, but think about what has just happened.

The small floating country may say "but look how we handled the crisis of terrorist attacks in our country. We were right there taking care of bussiness from the very beginning."

Think about what it would have been like if it had covered the whole of your country. The area that this took place in is a large as many countries. Would the population need to be held accountable for all the mistakes perceived or actual that led to more deaths then thought unavoidable because the infrastructure was not up to par in handling such a crisis?

I am not saying that things have gone smoothly. I also am not saying there is no need to look into many issues that have come up as a result of this event. But to continuously treat individuals as if they personally had a hand in the problem and should feel guilty is wrong. To say someone is trying to ease their concience by giving some of their money to try and help is just plain dumb.

I too hope this gets looked into fully and that we make some big changes in how we do things. I said so in the poll I started. We need to look at doing things differently and maybe look at the need to move people back to their homes when this is all over or move them elsewhere.

As Everose said, we have spent a lot of money/resources on rebuilding areas that have had several hurricanes just last year. She asks if it was a mistake to spend the money there or should the levies have been shored up. It is a big decision and apparently the government took a gamble that the levies would be ok for now.

But since they are not, is it right to spend the money it is going to take to rebuild to an even better state of safety, or should we focus some of that on relocation and the rest on making other areas not yet hit by disaster safer.

A lot of things to look into and decide, but place blame where it belongs when this is over and has been fully looked into.

[JPaul]

The thing about the money is really a "what's the point". As far as I am aware there is no shortage of funds to deal with the situation, so why would someone send around 40% of their income. How is it supposed to help if there's plenty of money anyway.

Jebus then seems to conjecture that the donation was to ease the chaps own conscience, to make him feel better, rather than any actual assistance it may provide.

It seems a reasonable point to make, I couldn't possibly comment.

[tracydani]

I think that donating money for those that can, does help in a way. It is less money (theoretically)that will be needed from the government in the form of taxes.

The money may be there, but that is because the government will take it if it wants it, and maybe from an area equally in need. This then raises the taxes for those who couldn't really afford it in the first place.

Besides, is America really as rich as we claim? Don't we owe a lot of money everywhere and just don't pay because we are "bigger"? I am probably wrong, but it seems as if that is what I have heard/read in the past.

But I guess that is another discussion :P

[Cheese]

I too hope this gets looked into fully and that we make some big changes in how we do things. I said so in the poll I started.

Cool, then we agree. Sort of.

I'm going to ignore (but not really) the Europe bit as it didn't make much sense and just seems to be the common defence round here..."Hey, you guys are crap as well". I know.

[tracydani]

[QUOTE=tracydani]
I'm going to ignore (but not really) the Europe bit as it didn't make much sense and just seems to be the common defence round here..."Hey, you guys are crap as well". I know.

I did say it wouldn't be clear :P

But I am not really saying "Hey, you guys are crap as well", I really do not think that. I just think that standards do not seem the same for everyone.

[JPaul]

[QUOTE=Withcheese]

I did say it wouldn't be clear :P

But I am not really saying "Hey, you guys are crap as well", I really do not think that. I just think that standards do not seem the same for everyone.
That's probably because you (plural) are perceived as having a superiority complex.

Whilst others kind of look down on you and are puzzled as to what you actually feel superior about.

[Barbarossa]

It's hard for me to comprehend the scale of the disaster area, so it don't like to criticise the relief effort.

However, it's been well known that if a category 4 or above storm headed directly for New Orleans, the levees would fail. I seem to remember last year they thought a storm was heading in that direction, but it veered away at the last minute. That should have been warning enough.

In the UK the Environment Agency has done massive research on the effects of climate change, global warming and rising sea levels on the coastline, and plans have been put into place to either adequately protect the vulnerable areas, or to undertake a "managed retreat", and let the sea reclaim areas that it's not cost-effective to protect, especially on the south coast and East Anglia. This also creates salt marshes and wetland areas which are great for wildlife!

It just appears to me that our Government is alot more environmentally-savvy than thier American counterparts, and they are also more realistic in terms of the way our planet is going to change in the near future.

I just hope this tragedy acts as a wake-up call to the US administration that they can no longer treat the environment with contempt. Scientists will argue that there is no direct link between this accident and climate change, but it does appear that these storms are getting more frequent, and so we are going to be seeing alot more towns around the Gulf turned into match-wood in the coming years.

Even the most powerful nation on earth is no match for the raw power of nature unleashed.

[Busyman]

I'm sorry but when I brought up, "Who foresaw that?"..that was for Hank blaming the people that had no means to escape the hurricane.

Bush's main mistake was absorbing FEMA into HLS. There is shit everywhere from fixing bridges to earthquake fortification that needs tending to and it all can't be done. Things need to be weighed against potential consequences.

However, my main concern is the shit I'm hearing about the aftermath and the apparent lack of concern by our President.

I remember a child running between two cars and into the street and was hit by a bus and killed. Everyone wanted to assess blame to the parents, the bus driver and I for one blamed the kid. However, I also looked at the shitty ambulance response time and how it should be fixed.

In my view, our President is overall fuck up and he gets a complete F grade for his tenure.

On a minor point, his inaction before this happened, and on a major point, his inaction afterwards and yes this is a flipflop of my first post 'cause now I know help was a rearing to go and the major help, it seems, was put into a fucking holding pattern and until the savior Jebus Bush came to have fucking photo ops even during a conversation with a grieving woman!!!

Bush even put a longtime friend in charge of FEMA with no fucking experience.

Cronyism

[Everose]

'Tragedy often becomes a stage for the best of human character. But it seems as if this tragedy is also destined to be a stage for the worst, a spotlight on the divisions that have lately grown so much wider between us.'
Leonard Pitts, Miami Herald

Well, Busyman, I have read a lot on FEMA lately and it's absorption into the Homeland Security Department......a decision made by the Bush Administration. There are pros and cons to this decision, though, aren't there? How dare Bush 'let' this hurricane happen while these two departments are being blended! I have to wonder what would be said if we had two strong tax supported agencies down there, each trying to lead the rescue efforts. I can hear the complaints about Bush supporting two agencies, when combining these agencies would have been a lot more tax efficient.

tracydani has raised some interesting issues. I would like to go with that and add a few things.

I would like to believe those that aren't American on this board have America's best interest at heart on this forum and elsewhere. I would really like to believe that. So I listen to what they say. But the more I listen, the more my hopes are dashed. I see a lot of flat out criticism with no real understanding in the differences of our size, taxing systems, and governments. Some of you realize this and that is always refreshing to me, and I appreciate it.

We have our City/County Governments. Since 9/11, our Federal Government has been pouring money right and left into grants for emergency preparedness at the City level.....county and state, too, but the City level is where the responsibility starts. No one can tell me that New Orleans didn't get their fair share of this money. What did they do with it? Did they have a system set up where buses were made available for all those who did not have the means to leave the city were given it when an emergency like this was imminent? Does it not make sense that with their knowing their levee's would not hold up during a level 5 Hurricane that this would be their first priority? Money has been given from the federal government to municipal govenments to enable them to plan and equip for such disasters. Where did this money go in New Orleans? And even if they had such a plan, which in my mind they should have.........did they also forsee in this plan they may need armed guards to force people to leave for their own good? Many of these people refused to leave. They have had a lot of Hurricane scares in the past that didn't pan out. Lot of variables there......but the City should have had a plan. They should have worked out these variables.

Counties/Parishes receive Federal funds for this planning, also. Usually what happens there is the biggest City in the county/parish ends up benefitting the most. So now New Orleans has a lot of Parish federal funds to add to their City federal funds. What was done with this money?

Each State receives a hunk of Federal funds, too. A lot of states are richer than others because of natural resources present in their states. Lousianna, from what I have read, has a large abundance of natural resources in the way of oil. This state has tremendous amounts of oil that is being harvested, so to speak. This oil has brought billions of dollars in the way of tax revenue to this state. What was this revenue spent on? I would like to see an accounting of it. What I am seeing now is that they have reaped a lot of tax money off this, let the removal of this oil destabilize the very ground they live on and are now seeing the results of this raping of their land. But it is all the federal governments fault? :01:

Quite frankly, I have never seen the federal government as my savior. I do any planning keeping this in mind. The responsibility starts with myself, my local and state government, and then on a national scale, my federal government. How do we make the jump from self responsibility to federal government responsibility for self so quickly and so all encompassing?

With this big of a disaster, hindsight should start at the 'responsibility for self' level. For anyone that chose to live in an unstable area like this, an area built so far below sea level, why had they not beat down the doors of their local government and put the pressure where it would help the most? Why did they not demand to know what provisions were being made for their evacuation beforehand? Even become involved in the emergency planning?

I get a little leery of every thing that happens being blamed on Bush. Probably not for the reasons you think. I don't care for the man for more reasons than one. But it sickens me to see that those that rant and rave and throw every little thing that happens in the world squarely on his shoulders have in their unintentional way given the man himself undeserved 'God-like' qualities.

It is not my way to point fingers and place blame when we are in the midst of a disaster such as this. It makes me feel sick to do so. ONLY because of the tendency in this thread to once again bash Bush again do I do so. Criminetly I am sick of hearing his name and seeing the godlike qualities given him. And I have to add....it really isn't his supporters that give him thus.

Does it never end? Now I am reading some think it is God's will, this hurricane.

Once again quoting Leonard Pitts, Miami Herald:

Memo to all these nitwits: it was a hurricane, not God's stamp of approval for your small-mindedness and hate.

[Everose]

The thing about the money is really a "what's the point". As far as I am aware there is no shortage of funds to deal with the situation, so why would someone send around 40% of their income. How is it supposed to help if there's plenty of money anyway.

Jebus then seems to conjecture that the donation was to ease the chaps own conscience, to make him feel better, rather than any actual assistance it may provide.

It seems a reasonable point to make, I couldn't possibly comment.


I know the point you are making here, JPaul. I understand where you are coming from.

But :D

We have thousands of displaced New Orleans in shelters in other states without anything but the clothes on their backs to their names. Money and work being given will help these people. For those of us unable to be there,, to dig right in and be physically present to assist, it may ease our conscience a bit to send money, but said money should not be made that light of. It is needed and appreciated.

[BigBank_Hank]

Wow Rose that’s quite a post. I’m glad that I read all posts before responding because you seemed to have pretty much made every point that I was going to.

I’m coming to the conclusion that people blame Bush for everything because they are still mad about losing the election in 2000. They are still bitter and so mad that they don’t know what to do with them selves. So every action that Bush takes they take the complete opposite side no matter how ridiculous it may be.

People here act like Bush is the one who is in control of the state also. It’s state and local officials who have demonstrated just how incompetent they are, and how poor their leadership skills are. The fact that the Governor had not called up more national guardsmen before the storm is pitiful. She saw this thing coming in for 2 or 3 days and didn’t do anything but issue a mandatory evacuation for the city that a lot of people didn’t listen to. This is a melt down at the state and local official level and they sat around with the thumbs up their asses and bitched and moaned because it was all Bush’s fault.

[Busyman]

Wow Rose that’s quite a post. I’m glad that I read all posts before responding because you seemed to have pretty much made every point that I was going to.

I’m coming to the conclusion that people blame Bush for everything because they are still mad about losing the election in 2000. They are still bitter and so mad that they don’t know what to do with them selves. So every action that Bush takes they take the complete opposite side no matter how ridiculous it may be.

People here act like Bush is the one who is in control of the state also. It’s state and local officials who have demonstrated just how incompetent they are, and how poor their leadership skills are. The fact that the Governor had not called up more national guardsmen before the storm is pitiful. She saw this thing coming in for 2 or 3 days and didn’t do anything but issue a mandatory evacuation for the city that a lot of people didn’t listen to. This is a melt down at the state and local official level and they sat around with the thumbs up their asses and bitched and moaned because it was all Bush’s fault.
Your post would have teeth if you didn't try to blame the state officials by their lonesome.

My thing is not what happened beforehand. It is it's aftermath. I read that there were folks ready to go but waiting on Bush's say so. Wtf?!!!

I also know Bush can't control hurricane's. However, it amazes me that for the man in charge, he can't seem to quite get it right. So far, the only thing seems to be Afghanistan, which was a no brainer. Everything else has been less than redeemable.

[Busyman]

'Tragedy often becomes a stage for the best of human character. But it seems as if this tragedy is also destined to be a stage for the worst, a spotlight on the divisions that have lately grown so much wider between us.'
Leonard Pitts, Miami Herald

Well, Busyman, I have read a lot on FEMA lately and it's absorption into the Homeland Security Department......a decision made by the Bush Administration. There are pros and cons to this decision, though, aren't there? How dare Bush 'let' this hurricane happen while these two departments are being blended! I have to wonder what would be said if we had two strong tax supported agencies down there, each trying to lead the rescue efforts. I can hear the complaints about Bush supporting two agencies, when combining these agencies would have been a lot more tax efficient.
At least it would be 2 agencies down there. Who the fucks going to complain about 5 agencies down there? How 'bout 10? :ermm:

Now don't get it twisted. I'm not saying Bush should have thrown caution to the wind and throw all our resources to N'Orleans and Mis'ippi. HLS still was very important due to it being an ample time for another terrorist strike.

The pros and cons?
Con - anti-terrorism efforts will always get more money than disaster relief.
Problem - anti-terrorism efforts have been have assed so wtf?!!!

Our borders are shit, people are still getting on planes with weapons, and uh...let's cut taxes to help the wealthy. :blink: What a brain. :1eye:

Tons of moneys have been given to the states specifically for anti-terrorism. So much in fact that states have had to figure out things to do with these moneys (for anti-terrorism) and have been buying far-fetched shit with absolutely no oversight besides

...it had to be for anti-terrorism. :dry:

[brotherdoobie]

There will be a need for those in authority to be called to account after this is all cleared up, there is also a need for U.S. society as a whole to comprehend what the collective failure shows about the American way of life. So I'm not going to just blame Bush...




my conscience, my wallet

Did the latter help ease the former?

I don't feel guilty. Why should I? I feel empathy for those who have lost
everything. (at least, the material.)

Peace bd

[GepperRankins]

http://thepiratebay.org/details.php?id=3378818


watch this. first hand accounts of the starving homeless dying people not being allowed to leave the city, because they were held behind a police roadblock


http://www.gnn.tv/headlines/4688/Homeland_Security_Won_t_Let_Red_Cross_Deliver_Food


read this about homeland security refusing to let the red cross do their job

[BigBank_Hank]

Your post would have teeth if you didn't try to blame the state officials by their lonesome.

My thing is not what happened beforehand. It is it's aftermath. I read that there were folks ready to go but waiting on Bush's say so. Wtf?!!!

I also know Bush can't control hurricane's. However, it amazes me that for the man in charge, he can't seem to quite get it right. So far, the only thing seems to be Afghanistan, which was a no brainer. Everything else has been less than redeemable.
I blame the state officials because they are the ones in charge of the damn state.

Your thing isn’t what happened beforehand? If measures had been in place beforehand this mess wouldn’t be as bad. You have to make advance preparations for something like this and its not like the state didn’t know this was coming. Weather forecasters said that the storm was going to hit N.O last Thursday. Now you can’t honestly tell me that from the forecasted date of Thursday to Monday when the storm hit that some kind of plan couldn’t be thought of. Something had to be done but the only thing that was done was an evacuation order. The President did his part he declared the state a disaster area 2 days before the storm even hit here.

[Everose]

'Tragedy often becomes a stage for the best of human character. But it seems as if this tragedy is also destined to be a stage for the worst, a spotlight on the divisions that have lately grown so much wider between us.'
Leonard Pitts, Miami Herald

Well, Busyman, I have read a lot on FEMA lately and it's absorption into the Homeland Security Department......a decision made by the Bush Administration. There are pros and cons to this decision, though, aren't there? How dare Bush 'let' this hurricane happen while these two departments are being blended! I have to wonder what would be said if we had two strong tax supported agencies down there, each trying to lead the rescue efforts. I can hear the complaints about Bush supporting two agencies, when combining these agencies would have been a lot more tax efficient.
At least it would be 2 agencies down there. Who the fucks going to complain about 5 agencies down there? How 'bout 10? :ermm:

Not me, Busyman. I would have no reason to address this without your complaining that 'Bush' dissolved FEMA. :) Please re-read my statement above. The man will never be able to do anything right. Half the people will bitch regardless of his decision in whatever instance. So I don't expect the man to be perfect. I don't expect him to ever please all citizens. But I will point out when someone seems to have that unrealistic expectation of him. Emergency Preparedness is Emergency Preparedness. If an area has a weakness, whether it be a weak levee, or an adjoining border with another country...........it is in their best interest to use these monies to address their specific issues, would it not?

Now don't get it twisted. I'm not saying Bush should have thrown caution to the wind and throw all our resources to N'Orleans and Mis'ippi. HLS still was very important due to it being an ample time for another terrorist strike.

I won't, Busyman. Our Department of Defense really can't afford to do this, regardless of how the people who want all of their attention at any given moment feel that way.

The pros and cons?
Con - anti-terrorism efforts will always get more money than disaster relief.
Problem - anti-terrorism efforts have been have assed so wtf?!!!

Well, there you have it, Busyman. You don't hear so much about anti-terrorism efforts anymore, do you? You do hear about emergency preparedness and homeland security. You won't hear me criticizing the shift.

Our borders are shit, people are still getting on planes with weapons, and uh...let's cut taxes to help the wealthy. :blink: What a brain. :1eye:

And what is the answer, Busyman? Human Beings are dying in the deserts of Arizona trying to get to the States. Why do they do this....risk death to get here?

Tons of moneys have been given to the states specifically for anti-terrorism. So much in fact that states have had to figure out things to do with these moneys (for anti-terrorism) and have been buying far-fetched shit with absolutely no oversight besides

Funny. I have been active in my local emergency preparedness board. The funds are there for use in local emergency and disaster planning and prevention. If your area is using it for far fetched things...........take it to their faces and demand accountability.

...it had to be for anti-terrorism. :dry:

I forgot where you live. With your area's recent history, I would think a little anti-terrorism planning would be applicable.

[Everose]

http://thepiratebay.org/details.php?id=3378818


watch this. first hand accounts of the starving homeless dying people not being allowed to leave the city, because they were held behind a police roadblock


http://www.gnn.tv/headlines/4688/Homeland_Security_Won_t_Let_Red_Cross_Deliver_Food


read this about homeland security refusing to let the red cross do their job

Did you read this whole article? Have you no conception that the National Guard needs no more people than it already has to rescue? Why would you let people in to an unsafe area when you are removing people from same area as soon as possible? The national guard itself has hauled over nine million meals into the area......with millions more on it's way. Hell, the article, if anything states that the Red Cross totally understands this.

[Busyman]

Your post would have teeth if you didn't try to blame the state officials by their lonesome.

My thing is not what happened beforehand. It is it's aftermath. I read that there were folks ready to go but waiting on Bush's say so. Wtf?!!!

I also know Bush can't control hurricane's. However, it amazes me that for the man in charge, he can't seem to quite get it right. So far, the only thing seems to be Afghanistan, which was a no brainer. Everything else has been less than redeemable.
I blame the state officials because they are the ones in charge of the damn state.

Your thing isn’t what happened beforehand? If measures had been in place beforehand this mess wouldn’t be as bad. You have to make advance preparations for something like this and its not like the state didn’t know this was coming. Weather forecasters said that the storm was going to hit N.O last Thursday. Now you can’t honestly tell me that from the forecasted date of Thursday to Monday when the storm hit that some kind of plan couldn’t be thought of. Something had to be done but the only thing that was done was an evacuation order. The President did his part he declared the state a disaster area 2 days before the storm even hit here.
...and again you blame them on their lonesome. You don't seem to address the aftermath either. You seem to be on track with Bush. I wonder if he thinks the way you do? :ermm:

[Busyman]

At least it would be 2 agencies down there. Who the fucks going to complain about 5 agencies down there? How 'bout 10? :ermm:

Not me, Busyman. I would have no reason to address this without your complaining that 'Bush' dissolved FEMA. :) Please re-read my statement above. The man will never be able to do anything right. Half the people will bitch regardless of his decision in whatever instance. So I don't expect the man to be perfect. I don't expect him to ever please all citizens. But I will point out when someone seems to have that unrealistic expectation of him. Emergency Preparedness is Emergency Preparedness. If an area has a weakness, whether it be a weak levee, or an adjoining border with another country...........it is in their best interest to use these monies to address their specific issues, would it not?
Too bad it is focused on anti-terrorism only...and that is half-assed. I get that Bush comes across too many as a security minded cowboy. Unfortunately..it ain't true. So what is he good at?
Now don't get it twisted. I'm not saying Bush should have thrown caution to the wind and throw all our resources to N'Orleans and Mis'ippi. HLS still was very important due to it being an ample time for another terrorist strike.

I won't, Busyman. Our Department of Defense really can't afford to do this, regardless of how the people who want all of their attention at any given moment feel that way.
They can afford to now though, can't they? I am reminded of sufficient motivation.
DC doesn't have enough money to fix broken down schools but hell they enough for a new baseball stadium. Go Expos er..Nats!!!
Sufficient motivation.
The pros and cons?
Con - anti-terrorism efforts will always get more money than disaster relief.
Problem - anti-terrorism efforts have been have assed so wtf?!!!

Well, there you have it, Busyman. You don't hear so much about anti-terrorism efforts anymore, do you? You do hear about emergency preparedness and homeland security. You won't hear me criticizing the shift.
HLS has to do with anti-terrorism Evey. The only reason you hear alot about natural disaster relief is because of the recent transformation of N'Orleans/Mis'ippi into Atlantis.
Our borders are shit, people are still getting on planes with weapons, and uh...let's cut taxes to help the wealthy. :blink: What a brain. :1eye:

And what is the answer, Busyman? Human Beings are dying in the deserts of Arizona trying to get to the States. Why do they do this....risk death to get here?
Not our problem besides the fact they shouldn't be here. Read up on the importation of voters.
Tons of moneys have been given to the states specifically for anti-terrorism. So much in fact that states have had to figure out things to do with these moneys (for anti-terrorism) and have been buying far-fetched shit with absolutely no oversight besides

Funny. I have been active in my local emergency preparedness board. The funds are there for use in local emergency and disaster planning and prevention. If your area is using it for far fetched things...........take it to their faces and demand accountability.
With almost no oversight.

...it had to be for anti-terrorism. :dry:

I forgot where you live. With your area's recent history, I would think a little anti-terrorism planning would be applicable.
Uh yeah....I work in DC and live next AAFB...so uh yeah.

[Everose]

I disagree with you, Busy. Emergency Preparedness has to do with preparing for any emergency in the area. I do agree that an act of terrorism is definitely an emergency to be prepared for. :)

Which is it? Is Bush a security minded cowboy as you seem to say a lot of people think, or does he not care about national security? Yesterday you claimed he didn't give a shit. Now he is way too security minded because he allocates money for terrorism emergencies.

What is he good at? Apparently remaining President of the United States. :lol: You have to hand it to him....that isn't easy for any man these days.

Guess I don't understand your 'They can afford to now' statement, Busy. First you were running with the 'we can't afford to because of Iraq.' Now you are saying we all of a sudden can afford to.

Please explain to me exactly what you think the federal government should have done here. Sent the National Guard and the US Coast Guard in before the levee broke? Who would have rescued them? As it was, the Coast Guard had to retrieve a lot of it's own people before it could rescue others. I am thankful someone had the sense not to send the National Guard in before they did. Then we would have had even longer delays, no?

A lot of effort has been put forth here to explain responsibilities of self, city, parish and state in this situation, also. I really feel the federal government met its responsibilities as quickly as possible. But the local effort failed miserably. Why did they not prepare for this, knowing a lot of their citizens didn't have the means to get out by themselves. And also knowing a lot of them would choose not to, even given that choice? I look around in my own city and I am aware who would need assistance out of here. For me to expect the federal government to know is absurd. Are you suggesting the Department of Defense should have had time to be in these areas, on the ground with buses, food and supplies before the levee broke? Just in case of?

You are angry about some baseball stadium when the schools in your area need work; you should be and have a right to that anger. Was the stadium put up for a bond issue/public vote? Have the schools attempted bond issues to repair and rebuild? Has the public voted these bond issues down?

First you say that our borders are going to shit and imply nothing is being done. Then you say it is not our problem. Which is it, Busyman?

I am getting dizzy trying to follow you. No oversight on what? By whom?

[Alien5]

its impossible to prepare for a hurricane/or any other disaster, america is 1 of the most dangerous places to live in the world.

[Everose]

Okay....which one are you.....the Mayor of New Orleans or the Governor of Lousianna? :D

To be serious, for a disaster of this magnitude, even the best laid plans can fail. But to not plan or prepare in an area known for hurricane activity.......how can that be wise?

[Santa]

found the interview with the mayor
think its from friday
(14 min)
http://www.atypical.net/mm/nagin.mp3

full transcript here
http://tradermike.net/movethecrowd/archives/2005/09/audio_of_new_orleans_mayors_wwl_radio_interview.php

[Busyman]

I disagree with you, Busy. Emergency Preparedness has to do with preparing for any emergency in the area. I do agree that an act of terrorism is definitely an emergency to be prepared for. :)
Well Evey, you engulf the entire thing into Emergency Prepardness. I did not.
It IS Emergency Prepardness but I choose to separate natural disaster relief from anti-terrorism. They are different. The way I worded my post made that CaptainObvious. :ermm:


Which is it? Is Bush a security minded cowboy as you seem to say a lot of people think, or does he not care about national security? Yesterday you claimed he didn't give a shit. Now he is way too security minded because he allocates money for terrorism emergencies.
Bush puts forth the notion yet is shit at follow through. Mmk? Putting forth the money means shit if the proper oversight isn't in place to make sure it is spent properly.


What is he good at? Apparently remaining President of the United States. :lol: You have to hand it to him....that isn't easy for any man these days. He's good at playing Bible card to the poor and religious right and the money card to the rich. Some of those are the same people of course.
If your poor and religious - "Hey I'm not good for your job situation but I don't like gays."
If your rich - "I'll put money in your pocket."


Guess I don't understand your 'They can afford to now' statement, Busy. First you were running with the 'we can't afford to because of Iraq.' Now you are saying we all of a sudden can afford to. I never said we can't afford to because of Iraq. :huh: Wtf?!!!


Please explain to me exactly what you think the federal government should have done here. Sent the National Guard and the US Coast Guard in before the levee broke? Who would have rescued them? As it was, the Coast Guard had to retrieve a lot of it's own people before it could rescue others. I am thankful someone had the sense not to send the National Guard in before they did. Then we would have had even longer delays, no?
Sent rescuers in a day.


A lot of effort has been put forth here to explain responsibilities of self, city, parish and state in this situation, also. I really feel the federal government met its responsibilities as quickly as possible. But the local effort failed miserably. Why did they not prepare for this, knowing a lot of their citizens didn't have the means to get out by themselves. And also knowing a lot of them would choose not to, even given that choice? I look around in my own city and I am aware who would need assistance out of here. For me to expect the federal government to know is absurd. Are you suggesting the Department of Defense should have had time to be in these areas, on the ground with buses, food and supplies before the levee broke? Just in case of?
No

You are angry about some baseball stadium when the schools in your area need work; you should be and have a right to that anger. Was the stadium put up for a bond issue/public vote? Have the schools attempted bond issues to repair and rebuild? Has the public voted these bond issues down?
The stadium was being built with taxpayer money and extra tax on area businesses. One councilwoman did step in and got part private financing in the 11th hour.

First you say that our borders are going to shit and imply nothing is being done. Then you say it is not our problem. Which is it, Busyman?The problems of illegal immigrants are not ours besides the fact they shouldn't be here. Oh damn...I said that already. :dry:

I am getting dizzy trying to follow you. No oversight on what? By whom?
Oversight on how federal money is being spent. If there is oversight, it's shit oversight.

[GepperRankins]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4214516.stm

gotta love teh BBC :happy:



i wanna refute what you babyeaters say but i just can't be arsed.

the truth is it's bushs fault for not allowing new orleans repair it's sea defences. then as an attempt to save face he wouldn't let people clean up new orleans until he showed up. ironically he caused hundreds of deaths and prolonged looting and increased anarchy because of the few days he stalled so he could turn up to show he cared. i know you'll have none of this though, there's hardly any point in trying to say anything.


PS. to refute what you said about the red cross. the government wanted the national guard to do it alone. this was to try and counter everyones claims that a third of them being in iraq made them less effective. this caused more death and destruction.

[MediaSlayer]

I do Manker. People here act like hurricanes are something new and are quick to point fingers at Bush. They act like he’s been the only President that the U.S. has had and every little thing that goes wrong is his fault.

Every little thing? You know what you sound like to me? You sound like a desperate woman taking up for her abusive boyfriend. No matter how bad he beats you, you always come back for more. To quote one of my favorite movies ,"Dog Day Afternoon", Sonny says "kiss me". To which the agent replies "huh?". Then his reply "I like to be kissed when I'm being fucked". I hope you saw the movie, for the sake of context.

And who is being fucked here? That drippy, slippery feeling coming from your ass should give you the first clue, America.

Here is your 2nd. (http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1196a.html)
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/un01.jpg

I don't want to ask a silly question, but...
Why the deuce would there be language in there about engaging in hostile enviromental modification techniques if the technology does not exist yet? That would be like including a clause like, "no country may use it's super secret carrot powered death ray on another country". Something doesn't add up. They do not say specifically "weather warfare" but that is one of the issues addressed, whether they said it bluntly or not. And what's scarier is that was a long ass time ago, imagine what progress they have made in the meantime. BTW, i read somewhere that kim sung is purported to control the weather of that country, according to his own people.

Now let's see, things going wrong, bush.... hmm

Well let's start with the obvious.

Under Clinton we had a good economy(we HAD a national surplus, not a debt), a prez who cared about the enviroment(have you seen Texas strip mining in person? I have), some glint of middle east peace(although it did fail), a remarkably unified country, and a great deal of security(although we took it for granted then).

Under Bush we have: a world that seems to be falling apart at the seams, a terminally ill economy(for my educated friends the aol keyword is "floating-point exchange, tee hee:)), scary judicial nominees, civil rights being eroded at a rate that would make mussolini proud, a "natural" disaster that just so happens to harm DC's fav target group(black people), a national debt so high that the ceiling had to be changed by congress, a court that allows this "eminent domain" shit to take privately owned land by brute force for the sake of the community, a president who just sat by and watched not one, but 2 large scale disasters from the comfort of his helicopters and luxury planes while doing nothing, some really unneccessary and irresponsible tax cuts that worsened the national debt, a patriot act that makes big brother a real possibility, and a host of other ridiculous things that I won't go into.

I fucking wonder which one is better. Give me time, I'll figure it out.

Wake up people, there is no such thing as terrorism, only confused people who don't understand what is happening. How many of you remember being 5 years old and having your parents use "the boogie monster" hiding in the closet to scare you into behaving? Did it work?

oh and i didn't fact check or spell check, there is not enough time on this terminal at the moment.

and what's with sandra day, and rhenquist?

how conveineint it would be, for all of them to either retire or die, so bush can appoint more neo-crats

edit:this (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1487185) guy figured some shit out, and look what happened.

[DanB]

Why didn't they enforce mandatory evacuation like they are now before the storm hit?

From what I can understand everyone that could leave did, the others that remained had no ways/means to get out until the so called rescue effort started.


Its good to see that the soldiers are treating the African American looters like they did the Iraqi looters and shooting them though :dry:

[RPerry]

Why didn't they enforce mandatory evacuation like they are now before the storm hit?

From what I can understand everyone that could leave did, the others that remained had no ways/means to get out until the so called rescue effort started.


Its good to see that the soldiers are treating the African American looters like they did the Iraqi looters and shooting them though :dry:

Everyone that could leave didn't, though they are happy to leave now. And even better than the soilders were the people in the Superdome who beat to death the guy who raped and killed the 12 yr old girl in the bathroom :dry:

[whypikonme]

So far, the only thing seems to be Afghanistan, which was a no brainer. .

Really? Please explain exactly what it was that he got right in Afghanistan.

[DanB]

And even better than the soilders were the people in the Superdome who beat to death the guy who raped and killed the 12 yr old girl in the bathroom :dry:


Sorry, you seem to say that like its a bad thing? :unsure:

[DanB]

This is quite an interesting article which spreads the blame evenly



Multiple failures caused relief crisis
Analysis By Paul Reynolds
World Affairs correspondent, BBC News website

The breakdown of the relief operation in New Orleans was the result of multiple failures by city, state and federal authorities.

There was no one cause. The failures began long before the hurricane with a gamble that a Category Four or Five hurricane would not strike New Orleans.

They continued with an inadequate evacuation plan and culminated in a relief effort hampered by lack of planning, supplies and manpower, and a breakdown in communications of the most basic sort.

On top of all this, there is the question of whether an earlier intervention by President Bush could have a made a big difference.

The planning

Before Hurricane Katrina struck, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (Fema) was confident that it was ready. Its director, Michael Brown, said: "Fema has pre-positioned many assets including ice, water, food and rescue teams to move into the stricken areas as soon as it is safe to do so."

Mr Brown even told the Associated Press news agency that the evacuation had gone well. "I was impressed with the evacuation, once it was ordered it was very smooth," he said.

Yet on Saturday 28 August, the day before the evacuation was ordered, Mr Brown did not say that people should leave the city. All he said was:

"There's still time to take action now, but you must be prepared and take shelter and other emergency precautions immediately."

This has made Fema appear complacent in the period immediately before the hurricane arrived. If it did not expect the worst, it would not have prepared for the worst.

The Brown statement went out on the same day that the National Hurricane Center was warning that Katrina was strengthening to the top Category Five. Everyone knew the dangers of a Category Five. A Fema exercise last year called "Hurricane Pam" had looked at a Category Three, and that was bad enough.

The evacuation

It was announced at a news conference by the Mayor Ray Nagin on Sunday 28 August, less than 24 hours before the hurricane struck early the next morning.

The question has to be asked: Why was it not ordered earlier?

The Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said at the same news conference that President Bush had called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation.

The night before, National Hurricane Director Max Mayfield had called Mayor Nagin to tell him that an evacuation was needed. Why were these calls necessary?

Again, as with Fema, the New Orleans mayor should have known that on the Saturday, Katrina was strengthening to Five.

It was already clear on the Sunday that the evacuation would not cover many of the poor, the sick and those who did not pay heed.

The mayor said people going to the Superdome, a sports venue named as an alternative destination for those unable to leave, should bring supplies for several days. He also said police could commandeer any vehicle for the evacuation.

But how much support was there at the Superdome? And how much city transport was actually used? There is a photo showing city school buses still lined up, in waterlogged parking lots, after the hurricane.

There are questions for the mayor, dubbed heroic by some, to answer.

The relief operation

The scenes which most shocked the world were at the Superdome and the nearby Convention Center. Yet it turns out that neither Mr Brown nor his boss, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, knew about the crises there until Thursday.

This, despite numerous television reports from the scene. It was not until Friday that the first relief convoy arrived.


It was midday Tuesday that I became aware of the fact that there was no possibility of plugging the gap, and that essentially the lake was going to drain into the city
Michael Chertoff, Homeland Security Secretary

"The very day that this emerged in the press, I was on a video conference with all the officials, including state and local officials. And nobody, none of the state and local officials or anybody else, was talking about a Convention Center," Chertoff told CNN. Note how he blames local officials.

Nor did he know about the breach in the floodwalls until a day later.

"It was midday Tuesday that I became aware of the fact that there was no possibility of plugging the gap, and that essentially the lake was going to drain into the city," he said on NBC.

Other, more successful operations, notably the airlift by the Coast Guard, should be acknowledged.

And in a disaster area the size of Great Britain, resources were stretched.

But ironically the failure at the Convention Center would have been fairly easy to put right. Reporters drove there without problems. One took a taxi.

What one wonders was Fema/the mayor's office/the governor's office doing while all that was played out on live TV?

One lesson agencies might want to learn is that someone senior should do nothing but monitor TV.

Some of this might explain why people at the Superdome and the Convention Center had to wait so long. It does not explain why communications were not better.

Another sign of slowness was that the Department of Homeland Security did not issue the first ever declaration of an "incident of national significance" until the Wednesday. Such a declaration allows the federal government a greater role in taking decisions.

In fact, the arguments between federal and state authorities about who was able to do what is another part of this story.

The Department of Homeland Security said the local authorities were inadequate. The locals responded that Fema had been obstructive - it had, for example, stopped three truckloads of water sent by the store Wal-Mart. And so on.

It took days to sort out who should send troops and from where.

Nor does Governor Blanco escape criticism. It took until Thursday, for example, for her to sign an order releasing school buses to move the evacuees.

The president's response

Mr Bush has been blamed for failing to rise to the occasion. His critics argue that he took too long to get back to Washington and did not provide the inspirational leadership needed at such a time. Nor, it is said, did he intervene early enough to get things moving.

Washington Post correspondent Dan Balz concluded:

"Anger has been focused on Bush and his administration to a degree unprecedented in his presidency. Senator Mary Landrieu [a Louisiana Democrat] said in an ABC News interview that aired Sunday that she would consider punching the president and others for their response to what happened there. Local officials, some in tears, have angrily accused the administration of callousness and negligence."

The president's defenders point out that it was he who urged an evacuation of New Orleans (he has no legal power to order one) and that he did acknowledge the "unacceptable" pace of the relief effort. Further, they say that aid is now flowing and reconstruction will take place.

Another issue for Mr Bush is why Michael Brown was appointed director of Fema. He had previously been its deputy and had been hired as its general counsel by the director Joe Allbaugh. He played a role in studying the government's response to national emergencies. Before that Mr Brown, a lawyer from Oklahoma, had run the Arab horse association.

Senator Hillary Clinton has said that Fema should be removed from the Homeland Security Department and made an independent agency again.

The gamble

When Hurricane Camille, a rare top Category Five storm, hit Mississippi in 1969, just missing New Orleans, the levees around the city were strengthened - but only enough to protect against a Category Three hurricane.

The gamble was taken that another Category Five would not threaten New Orleans anytime soon. This attitude prevailed among successive administrations.

Lt General Carl Strock, the Army Corps of Engineers commander, admitted that there was a collective mindset - that New Orleans would not be hit. Washington rolled the dice, he said.

After flooding in 1995, the existing system was improved. However, the sums were relatively small. About $500m was spent over the next 10 years.

From 2003 onwards, the Bush administration cut funds amid charges from the Army Corps of Engineers that the money was transferred to Iraq instead. The latest annual budget was cut from $36.5m to $10.4m.

A study to examine defences against a category Four or Five storm was proposed, at a cost of $4m. The Times-Picayune quoted the Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi as saying: "The Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies."

But in any event, there was no plan for a major strengthening. This would have taken billions of dollars and many years.

And an Army Corps of Engineers spokeswoman, Connie Gillette, said there had never been any plans or funds to improve those floodwalls which had failed.

It is a long and complex chain of responsibility.

All these issues, and many more, will now be the subject of congressional and other inquiries.

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4216508.stm)

[Everose]

Well Evey, you engulf the entire thing into Emergency Prepardness. I did not.
It IS Emergency Prepardness but I choose to separate natural disaster relief from anti-terrorism. They are different. The way I worded my post made that CaptainObvious. :ermm:


Which is it? Is Bush a security minded cowboy as you seem to say a lot of people think, or does he not care about national security? Yesterday you claimed he didn't give a shit. Now he is way too security minded because he allocates money for terrorism emergencies.
Bush puts forth the notion yet is shit at follow through. Mmk? Putting forth the money means shit if the proper oversight isn't in place to make sure it is spent properly.

So have patience with me here.... Bush allocates the spending to the states, etc., and elected officials in these states should be seeing that it is spent properly? Or Bush should allocate and follow every state, city, ward, parish and see that it is spent properly?


What is he good at? Apparently remaining President of the United States. :lol: You have to hand it to him....that isn't easy for any man these days. He's good at playing Bible card to the poor and religious right and the money card to the rich. Some of those are the same people of course.
If your poor and religious - "Hey I'm not good for your job situation but I don't like gays."
If your rich - "I'll put money in your pocket."

Yes, he is definitely a politician.


Guess I don't understand your 'They can afford to now' statement, Busy. First you were running with the 'we can't afford to because of Iraq.' Now you are saying we all of a sudden can afford to. I never said we can't afford to because of Iraq. :huh: Wtf?!!!

I very well could have misunderstood your comments, Busy. If so, please accept my apology.


Please explain to me exactly what you think the federal government should have done here. Sent the National Guard and the US Coast Guard in before the levee broke? Who would have rescued them? As it was, the Coast Guard had to retrieve a lot of it's own people before it could rescue others. I am thankful someone had the sense not to send the National Guard in before they did. Then we would have had even longer delays, no?
Sent rescuers in a day. I wish the US Coastal Guard and the National Guard could have been there within the hour, but twelve hours is what they say it took.


A lot of effort has been put forth here to explain responsibilities of self, city, parish and state in this situation, also. I really feel the federal government met its responsibilities as quickly as possible. But the local effort failed miserably. Why did they not prepare for this, knowing a lot of their citizens didn't have the means to get out by themselves. And also knowing a lot of them would choose not to, even given that choice? I look around in my own city and I am aware who would need assistance out of here. For me to expect the federal government to know is absurd. Are you suggesting the Department of Defense should have had time to be in these areas, on the ground with buses, food and supplies before the levee broke? Just in case of?
No

You are angry about some baseball stadium when the schools in your area need work; you should be and have a right to that anger. Was the stadium put up for a bond issue/public vote? Have the schools attempted bond issues to repair and rebuild? Has the public voted these bond issues down?
The stadium was being built with taxpayer money and extra tax on area businesses. One councilwoman did step in and got part private financing in the 11th hour.

First you say that our borders are going to shit and imply nothing is being done. Then you say it is not our problem. Which is it, Busyman?The problems of illegal immigrants are not ours besides the fact they shouldn't be here. Oh damn...I said that already. :dry: I disagree. :)

I am getting dizzy trying to follow you. No oversight on what? By whom?
Oversight on how federal money is being spent. If there is oversight, it's shit oversight.

yes, well, Bush doesn't oversee how states and cities spend their federal funds, although many times they come with their own little stipulations. You don't want him to, do you? :lol:

[Busyman]

Well Evey, you engulf the entire thing into Emergency Prepardness. I did not.
It IS Emergency Prepardness but I choose to separate natural disaster relief from anti-terrorism. They are different. The way I worded my post made that CaptainObvious. :ermm:


Bush puts forth the notion yet is shit at follow through. Mmk? Putting forth the money means shit if the proper oversight isn't in place to make sure it is spent properly.

So have patience with me here.... Bush allocates the spending to the states, etc., and elected officials in these states should be seeing that it is spent properly? Or Bush should allocate and follow every state, city, ward, parish and see that it is spent properly?
Since it isn't being spent properly, maybe the President that's so fcoused on terrorism should change a coupla things, eh?

What is he good at? Apparently remaining President of the United States. :lol: You have to hand it to him....that isn't easy for any man these days. He's good at playing Bible card to the poor and religious right and the money card to the rich. Some of those are the same people of course.
If your poor and religious - "Hey I'm not good for your job situation but I don't like gays."
If your rich - "I'll put money in your pocket."

Yes, he is definitely a politician.


Guess I don't understand your 'They can afford to now' statement, Busy. First you were running with the 'we can't afford to because of Iraq.' Now you are saying we all of a sudden can afford to. I never said we can't afford to because of Iraq. :huh: Wtf?!!!

I very well could have misunderstood your comments, Busy. If so, please accept my apology.
Cool. I did see where another member said what you referenced.


Please explain to me exactly what you think the federal government should have done here. Sent the National Guard and the US Coast Guard in before the levee broke? Who would have rescued them? As it was, the Coast Guard had to retrieve a lot of it's own people before it could rescue others. I am thankful someone had the sense not to send the National Guard in before they did. Then we would have had even longer delays, no?
Sent rescuers in a day. I wish the US Coastal Guard and the National Guard could have been there within the hour, but twelve hours is what they say it took.
What, to the Louisiana state line?


A lot of effort has been put forth here to explain responsibilities of self, city, parish and state in this situation, also. I really feel the federal government met its responsibilities as quickly as possible. But the local effort failed miserably. Why did they not prepare for this, knowing a lot of their citizens didn't have the means to get out by themselves. And also knowing a lot of them would choose not to, even given that choice? I look around in my own city and I am aware who would need assistance out of here. For me to expect the federal government to know is absurd. Are you suggesting the Department of Defense should have had time to be in these areas, on the ground with buses, food and supplies before the levee broke? Just in case of?
No

You are angry about some baseball stadium when the schools in your area need work; you should be and have a right to that anger. Was the stadium put up for a bond issue/public vote? Have the schools attempted bond issues to repair and rebuild? Has the public voted these bond issues down?
The stadium was being built with taxpayer money and extra tax on area businesses. One councilwoman did step in and got part private financing in the 11th hour.

First you say that our borders are going to shit and imply nothing is being done. Then you say it is not our problem. Which is it, Busyman?The problems of illegal immigrants are not ours besides the fact they shouldn't be here. Oh damn...I said that already. :dry: I disagree. :)
No, I did say that. Twice now. :dry:

I am getting dizzy trying to follow you. No oversight on what? By whom?
Oversight on how federal money is being spent. If there is oversight, it's shit oversight.

yes, well, Bush doesn't oversee how states and cities spend their federal funds, although many times they come with their own little stipulations. You don't want him to, do you? :lol:
You generalized "federal funds" all you want. Just like you can do with "Emergency Prepardness". The fact is these federal funds were earmarked with proper specificity and so as not to be used any old whichaway. Some places were trying to "figure out" what to do with the money and bought bull :shit: . They were almost no guideines from the the new HLS. Money needed to earmarked specifically by threat and risk assessment of ANY disaster. Being serious about terrorism doesn't mean "Well hell I gave you money."

Bush is the head of this country and he needs to stand up and be a leader and not a muppet with dollars in his hand. Hold states accountable. As it sits now, states have to spend the money just to get more (I know that's how it's worked before but it's fucking stupid). :dry:

[BigBank_Hank]

We’ve been bickering so much in this thread that it’s about time for some good news.

The good news is that both levees breaches have been fixed and the city’s water level is beginning to recede. The water level has gone down a foot in some areas of the city, which is great news. This is happening even though the largest pump in the city isn’t up and running yet and when that thing starts pumping it won’t be long before the water is all gone. I don’t think that it will take the originally estimated 30 days to pump the water out of there. I think that we may be looking at a week or so to do it if they can get all of the pumps up. So far there are two running and there are a total of 6 in the city.

[Busyman]

We’ve been bickering so much in this thread that it’s about time for some good news.

The good news is that both levees breaches have been fixed and the city’s water level is beginning to recede. The water level has gone down a foot in some areas of the city, which is great news. This is happening even though the largest pump in the city isn’t up and running yet and when that thing starts pumping it won’t be long before the water is all gone. I don’t think that it will take the originally estimated 30 days to pump the water out of there. I think that we may be looking at a week or so to do it if they can get all of the pumps up. So far there are two running and there are a total of 6 in the city.
Good news Hank. ;) I saw where they kept dropping sandbags (or something) into the water by helicopter. Now I see it's piled up nicely. :D

[GepperRankins]

i think bush is gonna get off the hook on this one. he's leading the inquiry into what went wrong.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4220246.stm


well now i'm just angry :angry:

[Rat Faced]

Good news at last.


Edit: that was aimed at the water level lowering, not the fact that Bush is going to whitewash everything again.


Now, can anyone tell me why Bush refused the Aid that was offered him, until he was forced to accept it by political pressure?

Especially the French Aid, which was available immediately from the Carribean.

Notice to that Cuba and Venezuela were amongst the 1st to offer Aid, despite everything Bush has said about them... and he still hasnt even had the decency to acknowledge the Cuban offer, despite publicy saying he would accept any aid offered from abroad.

Russian Aid was also refused at 1st..

The FEMA water convoys were filled in Texas and waiting to go before the Hurricane hit, and they were told to stay where they were for 3 days, why?

The Drivers were really pissed about that..


This is not the way to fight a natural disaster.

And a report from 31st August:


On tonight's news, CTV (Canadian TV) said that support was offered from Canada. Planes are ready to load with food and medical supplies and a system called "DART" which can provide fresh water and medical supplies is standing by. Department of Homeland Security as well as other U.S. agencies were contacted by the Canadian government requesting permission to provide help. Despite this contact, Canada has not been allowed to fly supplies and personnel to the areas hit by Katrina. So, everything here is grounded. Prime Minister Paul Martin is reportedly trying to speak to President Bush tonight or tomorrow to ask him why the U.S. federal government will not allow aid from Canada into Louisiana and Mississippi.

Hell, Canadians dont even need a passport to fly to the US usually, do they?

[Everose]

Dang it Busy, I am about half punch drunk from fatigue tonight, and have grown weary of all the finger pointing...even my own....so I am going to answer only one of your statements. (not that I couldn't do darn good with the rest) :D




First you say that our borders are going to shit and imply nothing is being done. Then you say it is not our problem. Which is it, Busyman?The problems of illegal immigrants are not ours besides the fact they shouldn't be here. Oh damn...I said that already. :dry: I disagree. :)
No, I did say that. Twice now. :dry:


Smart Aleck!!!! :lol:

[GepperRankins]

check #174 for my theory. can't think of any other reasons. :ermm:

well apart from the embarrassment of USA accepting help from france, russia, cuba and venezuala

[Busyman]

Good news at last.


Edit: that was aimed at the water level lowering, not the fact that Bush is going to whitewash everything again.


Now, can anyone tell me why Bush refused the Aid that was offered him, until he was forced to accept it by political pressure?

Especially the French Aid, which was available immediately from the Carribean.

Notice to that Cuba and Venezuela were amongst the 1st to offer Aid, despite everything Bush has said about them... and he still hasnt even had the decency to acknowledge the Cuban offer, despite publicy saying he would accept any aid offered from abroad.

Russian Aid was also refused at 1st..

The FEMA water convoys were filled in Texas and waiting to go before the Hurricane hit, and they were told to stay where they were for 3 days, why?

The Drivers were really pissed about that..


This is not the way to fight a natural disaster.

And a report from 31st August:


On tonight's news, CTV (Canadian TV) said that support was offered from Canada. Planes are ready to load with food and medical supplies and a system called "DART" which can provide fresh water and medical supplies is standing by. Department of Homeland Security as well as other U.S. agencies were contacted by the Canadian government requesting permission to provide help. Despite this contact, Canada has not been allowed to fly supplies and personnel to the areas hit by Katrina. So, everything here is grounded. Prime Minister Paul Martin is reportedly trying to speak to President Bush tonight or tomorrow to ask him why the U.S. federal government will not allow aid from Canada into Louisiana and Mississippi.

Hell, Canadians dont even need a passport to fly to the US usually, do they?
I fucking knew it even from the timing of our own shit...

'cause now I know help was a rearing to go and the major help, it seems, was put into a fucking holding pattern and until the savior Jebus Bush came to have fucking photo ops even during a conversation with a grieving woman!!!
(The above is from post #156 btw)

That's pretty slick of him leading an investigation into much his own fuck up. :dry:

The timing of him coming "with the food" is even more obvious and despicable as the timing of Clinton all of a sudden having to go to war in Iraq when he was in hot water. :dry:

Clinton was wagging the dog.
Bush is manufacturing a savior.

[Busyman]

Dang it Busy, I am about half punch drunk from fatigue tonight, and have grown weary of all the finger pointing...even my own....so I am going to answer only one of your statements. (not that I couldn't do darn good with the rest) :D




First you say that our borders are going to shit and imply nothing is being done. Then you say it is not our problem. Which is it, Busyman?The problems of illegal immigrants are not ours besides the fact they shouldn't be here. Oh damn...I said that already. :dry: I disagree. :)
No, I did say that. Twice now. :dry:


Smart Aleck!!!! :lol:
:lookaroun

[Everose]

Dang it Busy, I am about half punch drunk from fatigue tonight, and have grown weary of all the finger pointing...even my own....so I am going to answer only one of your statements. (not that I couldn't do darn good with the rest) :D



The problems of illegal immigrants are not ours besides the fact they shouldn't be here. Oh damn...I said that already. :dry: I disagree. :)
No, I did say that. Twice now. :dry:


Smart Aleck!!!! :lol:
:lookaroun

Oh Busy. :( I was just teasing on you. You are one of my favorite people to tease and you know it!!!

[Busyman]

:lookaroun

Oh Busy. :( I was just teasing on you. You are one of my favorite people to tease and you know it!!!
:O

[Everose]

Good news at last.


Edit: that was aimed at the water level lowering, not the fact that Bush is going to whitewash everything again.


Now, can anyone tell me why Bush refused the Aid that was offered him, until he was forced to accept it by political pressure?

Especially the French Aid, which was available immediately from the Carribean.

Notice to that Cuba and Venezuela were amongst the 1st to offer Aid, despite everything Bush has said about them... and he still hasnt even had the decency to acknowledge the Cuban offer, despite publicy saying he would accept any aid offered from abroad.

Russian Aid was also refused at 1st..

The FEMA water convoys were filled in Texas and waiting to go before the Hurricane hit, and they were told to stay where they were for 3 days, why?

The Drivers were really pissed about that..


This is not the way to fight a natural disaster.

And a report from 31st August:


On tonight's news, CTV (Canadian TV) said that support was offered from Canada. Planes are ready to load with food and medical supplies and a system called "DART" which can provide fresh water and medical supplies is standing by. Department of Homeland Security as well as other U.S. agencies were contacted by the Canadian government requesting permission to provide help. Despite this contact, Canada has not been allowed to fly supplies and personnel to the areas hit by Katrina. So, everything here is grounded. Prime Minister Paul Martin is reportedly trying to speak to President Bush tonight or tomorrow to ask him why the U.S. federal government will not allow aid from Canada into Louisiana and Mississippi.

Hell, Canadians dont even need a passport to fly to the US usually, do they?

I don't know, RF. I know my brother-in-law recently had to have a passport to fly over Canada in a helicopter to get to Alaska to fight forest fires. But he is not airline, so there may be other rules for them. I have been trying to follow the offers of help from other Countries. I did see where Sweden has a water purification team and Thailand has a medical assistance team waiting for approval to head this way, too. I heard Ms. Rice explain that as they can safely match these offers to the places of need, they will be accepted. I hope so.

[lynx]

I've refrained from posting here until things became at least a little settled. It seems that almost everyone is pointing the finger at everone else.

Well, at least J2 knows that the man at the top is responsible for everything, so we can be sure he will be calling for Bush's resignation.

[Formula1]

I was watching fox news and then Bill oreilley was talking about countries that donated the most to the U.S. . Kuwait donated over 500 millions dollars worth of oil and 100 millions dollars in cash , Saudi Arabia donated about 100 million dollars. But most of the European countries and canada merely donated less than 1 million dollars, UK barely donated anything... :lol: . what do you guys think about this ?

[j2k4]

I've refrained from posting here until things became at least a little settled. It seems that almost everyone is pointing the finger at everone else.

Well, at least J2 knows that the man at the top is responsible for everything, so we can be sure he will be calling for Bush's resignation.

Sarcastic irony now?

Think, lynx, think...

Bush resigns, you get Cheney, and whomever he selects to sit at his right hand for the next few years.

Works for me.

[GepperRankins]

I've refrained from posting here until things became at least a little settled. It seems that almost everyone is pointing the finger at everone else.

Well, at least J2 knows that the man at the top is responsible for everything, so we can be sure he will be calling for Bush's resignation.

Sarcastic irony now?

Think, lynx, think...

Bush resigns, you get Cheney, and whomever he selects to sit at his right hand for the next few years.

Works for me.
good point :fear:

[Busyman]

I was watching fox news and they Bill oreilley was talking about countries that donated the most to the U.S. . Kuwait donated over 500 millions dollars worth of oil and 100 millions dollars in cash , Saudi Arabia donated about 100 million dollars. But most of the European countries and canada merely donated less than 1 million dollars, UK barely donated anything... :lol: . what do you guys think about this ?
I say one shouldn't look for donations and cannot fault another country for not giving.

Other countries have their own problems. We should take care of ours...alone if we have to.

Donations, I'm sure, are appreciated.

[Everose]

I was watching fox news and then Bill oreilley was talking about countries that donated the most to the U.S. . Kuwait donated over 500 millions dollars worth of oil and 100 millions dollars in cash , Saudi Arabia donated about 100 million dollars. But most of the European countries and canada merely donated less than 1 million dollars, UK barely donated anything... :lol: . what do you guys think about this ?

Actually, I have thought about it some. And the things I think about it I will keep to myself. :)

[peat moss]

Canadians sent many teams to help , doctors , nurses , engineers , police officers . They were there before your Home land secuity teams too I think . With their own money spent , I might add .



When these disasters happen some just go to help ,no fanfare just to help and learn from it . Our Urban Team from Vancouver was there from the beginning .



http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/usar/


Ah I 'm choked, our navy all three ships :lol: are there to do the fucking dirty work clearing waterways of the bodies and clearing levies to help . Working in terrible condtions with power lines and debris under water,, thats what friends are for not pointing fucking fingers . :dry:

[brotherdoobie]

I was watching fox news and then Bill oreilley was talking about countries that donated the most to the U.S. . Kuwait donated over 500 millions dollars worth of oil and 100 millions dollars in cash , Saudi Arabia donated about 100 million dollars. But most of the European countries and canada merely donated less than 1 million dollars, UK barely donated anything... :lol: . what do you guys think about this ?

Actually, I have thought about it some. And the things I think about it I will keep to myself. :)

Agreed...

Peace bd ;)

[peat moss]

I take it this news is BS too ?


http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/06/international.aid.flows/

Sorry for taking it personal but what does supplies ,ships, helicopter's and personnel cost ?

Example :

Some of the aid is already being put to use. MREs (meals ready-to-eat) from Germany and Italy are being distributed and medical assistance from Italy is being accepted. Planes and helicopters from Canada and Singapore are being used to transport evacuees. Emergency supplies from Britain, Japan and Mexico also are being delivered.

Canada is also sending three naval ships and a Coast guard vessel packed with supplies and 1,000 military personnel to the disaster area.

The United States is also awaiting the arrival of two Greek cruise ships to house evacuees.


Don't know why I can't let this go .....but moneys cheap use that for the rebuilding its going to take, mabye years if ever . Be thankful for the countries that gave their " people " and resourses to help. You can't put that in the bank . The poor soldier (insert country ) looking for aunt Mables dog gone missing . ;)

[Everose]

Canadians sent many teams to help , doctors , nurses , engineers , police officers . They were there before your Home land secuity teams too I think . With their own money spent , I might add .



When these disasters happen some just go to help ,no fanfare just to help and learn from it . Our Urban Team from Vancouver was there from the beginning .



http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/usar/


Ah I 'm choked, our navy all three ships :lol: are there to do the fucking dirty work clearing waterways of the bodies and clearing levies to help . Working in terrible condtions with power lines and debris under water,, thats what friends are for not pointing fucking fingers . :dry:


Peat, thank you for posting this link. I cried with tears of gratitude. I thought highly of Canadians before reading this. But even more so now. Your Country's rolling up their sleeves and working alongside us is appreciated.........actually any Country or individual's sincere show of concern and care right now help more than you know.
Thanks. So Much.

[brotherdoobie]

Canadians sent many teams to help , doctors , nurses , engineers , police officers . They were there before your Home land secuity teams too I think . With their own money spent , I might add .



When these disasters happen some just go to help ,no fanfare just to help and learn from it . Our Urban Team from Vancouver was there from the beginning .



http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/usar/


Ah I 'm choked, our navy all three ships :lol: are there to do the fucking dirty work clearing waterways of the bodies and clearing levies to help . Working in terrible condtions with power lines and debris under water,, thats what friends are for not pointing fucking fingers . :dry:


Peat, thank you for posting this link. I cried with tears of gratitude. I thought highly of Canadians before reading this. But even more so now. Your Country's rolling up their sleeves and working alongside us is appreciated.........actually any Country or individual's sincere show of concern and care right now help more than you know.
Thanks. So Much.

Rose, said it best. So, I'm just going to quote her.

Peace bd

[DanB]

EU Backs Up Beleaguered US
Europe sends aid for New Orleans

Following a US appeal for assistance on 4 September, 13 EU countries are sending aid to deal with the aftermath of hurricane Katrina. Experts teams (medical, logistics, communication, search and rescue), equipment (tents/blankets, water purification equipment, water pumps, meals, generators), and transport are now heading across the Atlantic.

Austria and Belgium have sent crisis intervention teams, the Netherlands has offered a naval frigate loaded with fresh drinking water, while Germany and the UK have sent over half a million ready meals (full list attached below).

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin has said as many as 10,000 people may have lost their lives in the ferocious hurricane and subsequent flooding. In response to the disaster, two former Presidents aim to help victims with a Clinton-Bush Katrina Fund, along the lines of the Tsunami relief fund they organised earlier in the year.

New York Senator Hillary Clinton and her husband have also proposed a Congressional enquiry into the response from the federal government, along the lines of the 9/11 probe. Mr Clinton told CNN: "Our government failed those people in the beginning, and I take it now there is no dispute about it. One hundred percent of the people recognize that - that it was a failure".

For now, though, the focus is still on bailing out the beleaguered city, as relief flows in from around the world.

Howard Hudson,
6 September 2005



Austria

“Crisis Intervention Team” from the Austrian Red Cross:
Team was deployed on 1st September 2005 in Houston/Texas and will stay at least till 9th September 2005.

Set up of a communication network using IT and communication equipment for assistance/support.
10 sets petrol driven dirty water pumps
500 pieces tarps/plastic sheeting
300 camp beds

Belgium

3 Medical teams of 31 personnel
Logistic team of 10 personnel
Coordination team of 4 personnel
Civil engineering team of 10 personnel
Diving team
Balloon-lamps
Low and high capacity pumps
Small generators

Denmark

Water purification units

Finland

Search and Rescue team of 30 personnel

France

Material prepositioned in the Antilles, including 300 tents, 980 field beds, jerricans and soap, 60 generators, 3 water purification plants, 30 pumps and other material. The material will be accompanied by a team of 12 persons.

Germany

Germany has sent 40.000 meals and is currently sending another 30.000 on bilateral basis. Expert teams will be deployed as well.

Italy

300 Adult camp beds
300 blankets
600 sheets
1 suction pump
6 liferafts
11.200 chlorine tablets
5 units of large first aid kits
baby food formula

Luxembourg

Team of five persons as of Tuesday, with two jeeps.
1000 camp beds and 2000 blankets.

Malta

Material and cash (no details supplied)

Netherlands

The NL ready to offer assistance.
Has offered 3 (giant) waterpump installations
A Navy-vessel (fregat Van Amstel) containing fresh drinkingwater supplies/medical supplies/helicopters/beds,etc is en route towards New Orleans.

Romania

2 Teams of medical experts

Sweden

First Aid Kits, Blankets, Meals Ready to Eat, Generators, Plastic sheeting.
2 heavy water purification plants and instructors for their use.
Equipment for restoring the cell phone net in disaster areas.
Sweden has an aircraft ready for immediate deployment.

UK

500,000 Meals Ready to Eat (MREs) in process of being moved.
Medical experts
Urban Search and Rescue equipment, incl. rigid inflatable boats
Marine engineers and high-volume pumps
Skilled personnel including engineers who could support recovery efforts for installations and systems, Technicians, staff trained in disaster management and emergency response activities.

Source: European Commission



But most of the European countries and canada merely donated less than 1 million dollars, UK barely donated anything... . what do you guys think about this ?

Ah yes, Europe hardly donated anything :dry:

Being one of the richest countries in the world, you shouldn't need anyone's fucking money, just initial people/supplies etc to sort out the mess your Gov't couldn't/wouldn't prepare for.

[DanB]

http://www.democracyarsenal.org/2005/09/katrina_the_glo.html

Maybe you should have a read of that too Evey, BD and F1 :dry:


I am embarrassed to take donations from countries that are much poorer than we are, and am in no mood to celebrate, or grow warm and misty, as they chip in to foot the bill for our own reckless habit of undertaxing ourselves, and failing to meet our national obligations for self-government. If we were destitute and needed the money, that would be one thing. But we are the richest country in the world.

[manker]

I was watching fox news and then Bill oreilley was talking about countries that donated the most to the U.S. . Kuwait donated over 500 millions dollars worth of oil and 100 millions dollars in cash , Saudi Arabia donated about 100 million dollars. But most of the European countries and canada merely donated less than 1 million dollars, UK barely donated anything... :lol: . what do you guys think about this ?I think that European leaders decided exactly the same as I did:

Donating money to those in need is a very personal thing and people should not be judged nor made to feel inferior if they do not donate to a particular charity.

It is absolutely impossible to give even a penny per month of your income to each good cause around the globe - there are simply too many of them.

I set aside a pre-determined amount of my income each month and give to various charitable bodies, this amount is not inconsiderable and I take some time reviewing each cause that I donate to.

In this case, I am not giving any money at all since I do not believe it supersedes any of the other causes I currently donate to. The people affected are part of the richest country in the world and if no-one donated a penny, sufficient finds would still be available from their government. As I understand it, funds are not the problem - getting aid to the affected is the issue here.

That is not to say I don't feel for those affected, I do and hope that the situation is alleviated soon. My thoughts are with those who have lost loved ones.I think if you substitute 'I' meaning manker for 'I' meaning any European leader, the sentiment will hold true.

[Peerzy]

When did Donations become something that you expect. America should be expecting fuck all in donations and should be sorting out it's own problems. If anyone donates the Government should be very pleased, no matter how much or how little. You seem to expect everyone in the world to donate money to you just because you didn't put enough money into protecting yourself. Jog on America.

[lynx]

I've refrained from posting here until things became at least a little settled. It seems that almost everyone is pointing the finger at everone else.

Well, at least J2 knows that the man at the top is responsible for everything, so we can be sure he will be calling for Bush's resignation.

Sarcastic irony now?

Think, lynx, think...

Bush resigns, you get Cheney, and whomever he selects to sit at his right hand for the next few years.

Works for me.
Well, it only becomes sarcastic if you are going to be hypocritical about your position that the man at the top should shoulder the blame.

Now that's ironic.

[manker]

Well, at least J2 knows that the man at the top is responsible for everythingCareful, lynx.

The stock answer to that kind of statement so far is drivel akin to 'Omg, you think Bush can cause hurricanes!!11BBQ'

:dry:

[Everose]

:huh: Formula 1 posts something he heard on Fox News, and LAUGHS at what he heard. Brother Doobie and I state we are aware of it but will keep our thoughts on it to ourselves and now apparently conclusions have been jumped to about what we are feeling and thinking? No one bothers to ask us for clarification before telling us that we are ungrateful, our countrymen do not deserve even your concern because their government sucks and they are citizens of one of the richest countries on earth?

:unsure: wow.

[manker]

:huh: Formula 1 posts something he heard on Fox News, and LAUGHS at what he heard. Brother Doobie and I state we are aware of it but will keep our thoughts on it to ourselves and now apparently conclusions have been jumped to about what we are feeling and thinking? No one bothers to ask us for clarification before telling us that we are ungrateful, our countrymen do not deserve even your concern because their government sucks and they are citizens of one of the richest countries on earth?

:unsure: wow.No offence, you're a lovely lady, but I've always thought it particularly bad form to post something indicating that you're not going to say what you think.

Of course, others will draw conclusions. I didn't comment directly but my own conclusion was that you thought the European countries were pretty reprehesible for not donating. Hence my post above - I didn't directly address yourself and BD, because I couldn't be sure what you thought, however, F1 did ask for comments.

So I posted some.

[JunkBarMan]

manker you got some nerve making a "don't judge me, I'll do what I want post" and then you go on to say how you respect Everose but that you are going to use your post to pass judgement on her. Shame on you, that's pretty low.


Here's a very unique idea: let's stop attacking each other and pointing fingers and just say your peace. If you don't agree with someone, fine. Regardless of popular belief, that is a very natural human thing to do. But quit taking shots at each other.

[BigBank_Hank]

Ok now the mayor of the city has issued a mandatory evacuation of the city of N.O. Everyone must go because of the health concerns. Everyone who won’t go will be forced to go by local authorities. Why doesn’t anyone ask the mayor why he didn’t enforce the mandatory evacuation before the storm? If the N.O.P.D would have had the authority before the storm arrived to do this we wouldn’t even be in this mess. Guess who is in charge of issuing that authority? The mayor.

And don’t anyone tell me that they had no means to get them out of there either.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v168/BigBank_Hank/Bus.jpg
The mayor had all of these buses at his disposal and didn’t use one of them and now they are all ruined from the floodwaters.

[DanB]

Why didn't the President order him to issue a mandatory evacuation order if they all knew how bad it was going to be? :unsure:

Everose, would you care to tell me then what you meant by this post?

Actually, I have thought about it some. And the things I think about it I will keep to myself. :)

Sounds like you think bad things but are keeping quiet about it to me :)

[Busyman]

Ok now the mayor of the city has issued a mandatory evacuation of the city of N.O. Everyone must go because of the health concerns. Everyone who won’t go will be forced to go by local authorities. Why doesn’t anyone ask the mayor why he didn’t enforce the mandatory evacuation before the storm? If the N.O.P.D would have had the authority before the storm arrived to do this we wouldn’t even be in this mess. Guess who is in charge of issuing that authority? The mayor.

And don’t anyone tell me that they had no means to get them out of there either.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v168/BigBank_Hank/Bus.jpg
The mayor had all of these buses at his disposal and didn’t use one of them and now they are all ruined from the floodwaters.
No one figured this would happen to this degree.

Hindsight 20/20. I agree with you that forced evacuations would have saved lives. It would have been unprecedented too.

[Busyman]

When did Donations become something that you expect. America should be expecting fuck all in donations and should be sorting out it's own problems. If anyone donates the Government should be very pleased, no matter how much or how little. You seem to expect everyone in the world to donate money to you just because you didn't put enough money into protecting yourself. Jog on America.
I agree with your main point but whotf are you talking to? :huh:

[DanB]

When did Donations become something that you expect. America should be expecting fuck all in donations and should be sorting out it's own problems. If anyone donates the Government should be very pleased, no matter how much or how little. You seem to expect everyone in the world to donate money to you just because you didn't put enough money into protecting yourself. Jog on America.
I agree with your main point but whotf are you talking to? :huh:


Maybe he isn't and is just putting his opinion across? :unsure:

[Rat Faced]

Well, at least J2 knows that the man at the top is responsible for everythingCareful, lynx.

The stock answer to that kind of statement so far is drivel akin to 'Omg, you think Bush can cause hurricanes!!11BBQ'

:dry:

Well I hope that J2 immediately calls upon Gods resignation forthwith...

Dan, your wrong mate.

Bush doesnt have the authority to order the evacuation of New Orleans until after the DHS declares it a National Emergency effecting the entire nation or something like that. The Mayor is the highest authority in the City.

However, im unsure as to whether the Governor of Lousiana could have ordered it, as the person in charge of the State.

[DanB]

Dan, your wrong mate.

Bush doesnt have the authority to order the evacuation of New Orleans until after the DHS declares it a National Emergency effecting the entire nation or something like that. The Mayor is the highest authority in the City.

However, im unsure as to whether the Governor of Lousiana could have ordered it, as the person in charge of the State.

I'm not wrong 'cos I just asked why didn't he. :P

Thanks for answering though RF :01:

[Busyman]

I agree with your main point but whotf are you talking to? :huh:


Maybe he isn't and is just putting his opinion across? :unsure:
"You" denotes a reference to someone.

[brotherdoobie]

Why didn't the President order him to issue a mandatory evacuation order if they all knew how bad it was going to be? :unsure:

Everose, would you care to tell me then what you meant by this post?

Actually, I have thought about it some. And the things I think about it I will keep to myself. :)



Sounds like you think bad things but are keeping quiet about it to me :)


Maybe it's one big rod...















I doubt it...but it's hard telling these days.

Peace bd

[peat moss]

I think Everose's only problem is she wears her heart on her sleeve , and is patriotic to a fault . I certainly appreciated her pm this morning . I wish my fellow Canucks were a little more that way ,sure hope cooler heads prevail in this thread .


Check you pm's Everose . :)

[j2k4]

Sarcastic irony now?

Think, lynx, think...

Bush resigns, you get Cheney, and whomever he selects to sit at his right hand for the next few years.

Works for me.
Well, it only becomes sarcastic if you are going to be hypocritical about your position that the man at the top should shoulder the blame.

Now that's ironic.

Okay.

Let's say he "shoulders the blame".

What then?

Does he offer himself up for political sacrifice, and place himself at the mercy of...whom?

What would be a proper method of flagellation for this trespass?

Should he put everything on hold (including the relief/rescue effort) while he is castigated by whomever?

I haven't lent my opinion to those here, but I will now:

There is plenty of blame to go around, and since Bush sits atop the totem pole, he shares it in proper measure.

The question seems to be whether he ought to be publicly whipped before he resigns (which popular opinion here seems to dictate he do out of a sense of propriety) rather than after.

You all might clear the air as to what we should expect him to do, positioned as you are as the arbitors of American affairs...

Well?

What would you deem appropriate, lynx?

[BigBank_Hank]

I told you guys the state screwed this up.

The Red Cross was on the news tonight and they had trucks of food and water ready to go after the storm but the STATE would not let them in. They wanted to deliver food and water to the Superdome but the state wouldn’t let them in because it would encourage the people there to stay and the state didn’t want them to. That is the most appalling thing that I’ve heard. People were dieing in the Superdome and State officials wouldn’t let them in.

So let me recap all of this for you. The Mayor of the city has a parking lot full of buses that were at his disposal to get the poor, sick and elderly out of town that he didn’t use. He didn’t enforce the mandatory evacuation order that was given. The Governor never called up the National Guard and had them ready to go. Then the icing on the cake; the state won’t let the Red Cross in to deliver food and water because they want the people out of the Dome.

And this is all Bush’s fault?

[j2k4]

Why didn't the President order him to issue a mandatory evacuation order if they all knew how bad it was going to be? :unsure:

Because it is not in his purview to do so.

He could suggest privately that to evacuate might be prudent, but the decision would rest with the Governor.

If he did this, however, the Governor would have him on the hook immediately to provide a federally-funded and mighty comfy evacuation, don't you think?

Keeping in mind this would all have had to happen before Katrina came ashore, and could therefore have been all for naught, the possibility of political fallout would have kept the Governor from asking, and the President from offering.

I really hate to be interjecting reality into your anti-Bush free-for-all, but there you have it.

Surely you can see how this works? :dry:

[Busyman]

I told you guys the state screwed this up.

The Red Cross was on the news tonight and they had trucks of food and water ready to go after the storm but the STATE would not let them in. They wanted to deliver food and water to the Superdome but the state wouldn’t let them in because it would encourage the people there to stay and the state didn’t want them to. That is the most appalling thing that I’ve heard. People were dieing in the Superdome and State officials wouldn’t let them in.

Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?

Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

The original plan was to evacuate all the residents of New Orleans to safe places outside the city. With the hurricane bearing down, the city government decided to open a shelter of last resort in the Superdome downtown. We applaud this decision and believe it saved a significant number of lives.

As the remaining people are evacuated from New Orleans, the most appropriate role for the Red Cross is to provide a safe place for people to stay and to see that their emergency needs are met. We are fully staffed and equipped to handle these individuals once they are evacuated.

[MediaSlayer]

Here's a very unique idea: let's stop attacking each other and pointing fingers and just say your peace. If you don't agree with someone, fine.

My peace:

I believe that the hurricane was created by nature but it's course was altered by man, specifically the Republicans who run this country. Why would DC want a hurricane to hit New Orleans so severely? Two reasons-
1. because the earth is overpopulated, and disasters like tsunamis and hurricanes get rid of people in a clean way, so they think

2. because DC sees black people who didn't(and would never) vote for Bush or swallow his bullshit lies a liability, and a financial drain. not to mention a place that they would refer to as a "liberal stronghold" of sorts, which they hate.

3. because it jacked up the price of oil, and caused panic, and republicans feed on fear.

edit:also i believe the sudden appearance of these gas guzzling SUV's was no coincidence either. it seems like they got real popular all of a sudden at a time when oil is scarce, which makes the problem worse. i have even heard rumours that some hummer dealerships in California had there fleets partially set on fire because the people were angry about the fact that they waste so much gas. and what is bush doing to promote other sources of energy, like natural gas or hybrid electric cars? some skimpy tax credits that don't even make a dent in the overall price of the hybrid/natural gas car.

there

[lynx]

Well, it only becomes sarcastic if you are going to be hypocritical about your position that the man at the top should shoulder the blame.

Now that's ironic.

Okay.

Let's say he "shoulders the blame".

What then?

Does he offer himself up for political sacrifice, and place himself at the mercy of...whom?

What would be a proper method of flagellation for this trespass?

Should he put everything on hold (including the relief/rescue effort) while he is castigated by whomever?

I haven't lent my opinion to those here, but I will now:

There is plenty of blame to go around, and since Bush sits atop the totem pole, he shares it in proper measure.

The question seems to be whether he ought to be publicly whipped before he resigns (which popular opinion here seems to dictate he do out of a sense of propriety) rather than after.

You all might clear the air as to what we should expect him to do, positioned as you are as the arbitors of American affairs...

Well?

What would you deem appropriate, lynx?
I'm not letting you off that easily, J2.

You are the one who, in the past, has called for resignations before the investigations have been completed. Surely you should be doing the same in this case. :rolleyes:

Personally I would be quite content to wait for the outcome of the investigation. But with Bush having put himself at the head of this investigation it hardly seems likely it will be thought impartial.

[lynx]

When I first heard about the waterside explosions the other day, I thought Bush had misunderstood what was required when asked to send in the troops. I thought he had decided to do something about the insurgents looters and had ordered an air strike. :unsure:

No mention of WMD this time. So far. :shifty:

[tracydani]

That's because it's all around them in the water. Give 'em time, they'll find it.

[manker]

manker you got some nerve making a "don't judge me, I'll do what I want post" and then you go on to say how you respect Everose but that you are going to use your post to pass judgement on her. Shame on you, that's pretty low.You can hold the utmost respect for a person but still think their viewpoint on a particular issue is pish. However, in this case I stated clearly that I wasn't sure what 'Rose's viewpoint was - so I made a generic comment regarding an earlier post.

Nothing wrong with that.

As for my 'Don't judge me' comment. It wasn't about 'me' - it was about judging the bilions of people who decided that America have enough funds to clear up their own mess and their donations were needed more elsewhere.
Here's a very unique idea: let's stop attacking each other and pointing fingers and just say your peace. If you don't agree with someone, fine. Regardless of popular belief, that is a very natural human thing to do. But quit taking shots at each other.If you disagree with someone and post to that effect, you're effectively taking a shot at their beliefs.

Given this is a place to discuss opinions, how do you propose we avoid this.

[Rat Faced]

Yes, the USA has the funds to deal with this.

However, those funds are tied up in red tape just like every others countries finances are.. funds can be promised immediatly, they cannot be delivered immediatly. In addition, as i said earlier.. the Federal and State will be more concerned with the infrastructure than in the individuals.

The Insurance Companies will hum and hah about business' and individuals.. ie: Their money will not come quickly.

A huge amount of people could not afford insurance, and so now have nothing.


To summarise.. The USA needs Aid? Damn right it does, just like any country would.

You cannot blame the American people because you do not like the policies and personalities of its Government.. you have to remember that a lot more than 50% did NOT vote them in (whoever is in power at the time).

You must remember that just over 50% of those that voted, voted them in this time.. that is not a huge majority of the population in anyones money.

You must remember that the majority of the people in trouble here are not even likely to be those that voted for them in the 1st place, and it shouldnt matter if they were.

FFS, show a little compassion here guys...


J2, I already pointed out Bush couldnt evacuate :P

Hank, the FEMA convoys were stopped by the FEMA management, in Texas.. not by the State.

The State did however stop other convoys such as the Red Cross.

In their defence, they were told that the FEMA convoys were on the way already, and claim to have been keeping the way clear for them as much as possible (or so they were saying in interviews)..


We aren't going to know what happened exactly for a long time, if ever... there are a lot of umbrellas up already.


Media.... are you remembering to take your medicine? :unsure:

We can make it rain, in certain circumstances....we cant direct the course of a Hurricane. Do you realise the energy that would require?

Before we can control the weather, we have to be able to predict it in the 1st place... we cant do this at the moment, this is why your given a % for the chance of rain.

[Cheese]

Media.... are you remembering to take your medicine? :unsure:

We can make it rain, in certain circumstances....we cant direct the course of a Hurricane. Do you realise the energy that would require?

Before we can control the weather, we have to be able to predict it in the 1st place... we cant do this at the moment, this is why your given a % for the chance of rain.

For a momnet then I thought you were talking to the media...:blink:

[DanB]

Why didn't the President order him to issue a mandatory evacuation order if they all knew how bad it was going to be? :unsure:

Because it is not in his purview to do so.

He could suggest privately that to evacuate might be prudent, but the decision would rest with the Governor.

If he did this, however, the Governor would have him on the hook immediately to provide a federally-funded and mighty comfy evacuation, don't you think?

Keeping in mind this would all have had to happen before Katrina came ashore, and could therefore have been all for naught, the possibility of political fallout would have kept the Governor from asking, and the President from offering.

I really hate to be interjecting reality into your anti-Bush free-for-all, but there you have it.

Surely you can see how this works? :dry:


No J2, thats why I asked :mellow:

[Santa]

The media is all
I puke on the absurdity of the media & politics for its fascinatinatingly sensational manipulative yet highly "informative" techniques.

[j2k4]

Because it is not in his purview to do so.

He could suggest privately that to evacuate might be prudent, but the decision would rest with the Governor.

If he did this, however, the Governor would have him on the hook immediately to provide a federally-funded and mighty comfy evacuation, don't you think?

Keeping in mind this would all have had to happen before Katrina came ashore, and could therefore have been all for naught, the possibility of political fallout would have kept the Governor from asking, and the President from offering.

I really hate to be interjecting reality into your anti-Bush free-for-all, but there you have it.

Surely you can see how this works? :dry:


No J2, thats why I asked :mellow:

My apologies. :huh:

[j2k4]

Okay.

Let's say he "shoulders the blame".

What then?

Does he offer himself up for political sacrifice, and place himself at the mercy of...whom?

What would be a proper method of flagellation for this trespass?

Should he put everything on hold (including the relief/rescue effort) while he is castigated by whomever?

I haven't lent my opinion to those here, but I will now:

There is plenty of blame to go around, and since Bush sits atop the totem pole, he shares it in proper measure.

The question seems to be whether he ought to be publicly whipped before he resigns (which popular opinion here seems to dictate he do out of a sense of propriety) rather than after.

You all might clear the air as to what we should expect him to do, positioned as you are as the arbitors of American affairs...

Well?

What would you deem appropriate, lynx?
I'm not letting you off that easily, J2.

You are the one who, in the past, has called for resignations before the investigations have been completed. Surely you should be doing the same in this case. :rolleyes:

With all due respect, lynx, you have nothing to let me off from...

You obviously refer to Kofi Annan; I can't think of any others off-hand whose resignations I've called for, and actually I don't remember specifically calling for his.

I'm still a bit stupified that none of you had a problem with the U.N. investigating itself, particularly at this juncture.

No one even seemed to think there was an agency/body with the moral authority to investigate the U.N. or Annan; you were all content more-or-less to accept his blanket denial of any wrong-doing or lack of stewardship in any matter whatsoever (Oil-for-Food, Sudan, etc.), but, I digress... :dry:

In short, you all seem positively eager to pronounce on Bush and the U.S. over hurricane Katrina; the U.N. was another matter entirely. ;)

[JunkBarMan]

As for my 'Don't judge me' comment. It wasn't about 'me' - it was about judging the bilions of people who decided that America have enough funds to clear up their own mess and their donations were needed more elsewhere. So you are saying that you did indeed donate money? Because it sounds like you didn't, so that would include yourself as #1 in the billions you are talking about.





Here's a very unique idea: let's stop attacking each other and pointing fingers and just say your peace. If you don't agree with someone, fine. Regardless of popular belief, that is a very natural human thing to do. But quit taking shots at each other.If you disagree with someone and post to that effect, you're effectively taking a shot at their beliefs.

Given this is a place to discuss opinions, how do you propose we avoid this.

What saddens me with this topic is that it seems like people are losing focus that there are actual people, lots of people affected by this tragedy, and instead of keeping that in mind when posting, they just want to use this as a venue for America bashing.

Hey bash America, poopoo on Bush all you want, I don't care. But, this topic, this tragedy, these people they don't deserve it. If you hate America, anyone, from any country, that's fine, its your right, just don't lessen this topic with it.

These are human beings, people, your fellow man and woman; does it really matter they are from America? If so, then shame on you, all of you.

[lynx]

In short, you all seem positively eager to pronounce on Bush and the U.S. over hurricane Katrina;I've already said twice that I'm prepeared to wait, so I hope you aren't including me in your "all".


the U.N. was another matter entirely. ;)Hypocrite.

[NikkiD]

So you are saying that you did indeed donate money? Because it sounds like you didn't, so that would include yourself as #1 in the billions you are talking about.





Here's a very unique idea: let's stop attacking each other and pointing fingers and just say your peace. If you don't agree with someone, fine. Regardless of popular belief, that is a very natural human thing to do. But quit taking shots at each other.If you disagree with someone and post to that effect, you're effectively taking a shot at their beliefs.

Given this is a place to discuss opinions, how do you propose we avoid this.

What saddens me with this topic is that it seems like people are losing focus that there are actual people, lots of people affected by this tragedy, and instead of keeping that in mind when posting, they just want to use this as a venue for America bashing.

Hey bash America, poopoo on Bush all you want, I don't care. But, this topic, this tragedy, these people they don't deserve it. If you hate America, anyone, from any country, that's fine, its your right, just don't lessen this topic with it.

These are human beings, people, your fellow man and woman; does it really matter they are from America? If so, then shame on you, all of you.

Very well said, however I think the reason it's happened in this thread is because people all over the world are angry about the way the victims of this tragedy have been treated, and how poor the response has been from those in charge.

[Busyman]

So you are saying that you did indeed donate money? Because it sounds like you didn't, so that would include yourself as #1 in the billions you are talking about.





Here's a very unique idea: let's stop attacking each other and pointing fingers and just say your peace. If you don't agree with someone, fine. Regardless of popular belief, that is a very natural human thing to do. But quit taking shots at each other.If you disagree with someone and post to that effect, you're effectively taking a shot at their beliefs.

Given this is a place to discuss opinions, how do you propose we avoid this.

What saddens me with this topic is that it seems like people are losing focus that there are actual people, lots of people affected by this tragedy, and instead of keeping that in mind when posting, they just want to use this as a venue for America bashing.

Hey bash America, poopoo on Bush all you want, I don't care. But, this topic, this tragedy, these people they don't deserve it. If you hate America, anyone, from any country, that's fine, its your right, just don't lessen this topic with it.

These are human beings, people, your fellow man and woman; does it really matter they are from America? If so, then shame on you, all of you.
Sorry bud but what do you expect everyone to post?.....

Is everyone supoosed to post "I am deeply saddened by the deaths of the people." I mean is it supposed to be a Hallmark card?

[JunkBarMan]

Honestly Busyman, I don't know what people are supposed to post. Ask yourself, what is the right way to object to a government, George Bush, and America as a whole.

I do know this: The tragedy from this hurricane isn't the venue to post anti-America/Bush/Government topics. This is about the people, go make some other topic about those things. Lets act like mature people and not shout off at the mouth the first chance we get, just because we don't agree with something or someone.

Damn man, I feel a lot like everyone else in this topic, people in Louisiana got the shaft man, but I don't think it does any one of those people any good to sit here and bitch about Bush and America's government.

If you want to raise awareness about those things do it in the right way, don't prop it up on the backs of the people in this tragedy.

As far as Hallmark cards man, they don't mean crap. Everything I said in my post in this topic I meant every word of, so don't confuse my logic and feeling with some bullshit at your local drug store. I take this very serious and it really does sadden me to the bone to see people get so damn angry with America that they forget we are people too, and we hurt and bleed and die.

We have more money so I guess we are immune to those things.



NOW that's some Bullshit buddy.

[j2k4]

I've already said twice that I'm prepeared to wait, so I hope you aren't including me in your "all".

As you wish; I was using the editorial "all".

If you would deny me this, please let me know.


the U.N. was another matter entirely. ;)Hypocrite.

Again, lynx, with all due respect, blow it out your ass.

This is just another example of your proclivity for the selective quote.

You know precisely what I meant, and to twist my meaning by a semi-cunning use of the editting function is to insult your own considerable intelligence, as well as that of others.

Gee, hope my posts don't disappear. :ohmy:

[j2k4]

We have more money so I guess we are immune to those things.

NOW that's some Bullshit buddy.

Just so; many in this crowd are inclined to hold the U.S. to standards that haven't even been delineated, much less practiced in other countries/locales.

We aren't allowed to be less than perfect, and on this board, even perfection is not enough for some...

[lynx]

J2, of course I'm going to call you on your previous statements.

You demanded Kofi Annan's head before any investigation was concluded, even the UN's own. You criticised the UN for running its own investigation.

Yet you seem to be emphatic in refusing to do the same when your own president is directly involved, both as ultimate head of the organisations who are supposed to supply relief, and for conducting his own investigation.

So I repeat that you are guilty of dual standards and hypocricy.

It seems to me that your government will be calling for wholesale changes at the UN for mismangement, while at the same time being incapable of organising what should have been a fairly straightforward emergency action. Perhaps that tells us the source of your hypocritical stance.

[lynx]

We have more money so I guess we are immune to those things.

NOW that's some Bullshit buddy.

Just so; many in this crowd are inclined to hold the U.S. to standards that haven't even been delineated, much less practiced in other countries/locales.

We aren't allowed to be less than perfect, and on this board, even perfection is not enough for some...Or perhaps we simply expect you to hold to the standards you keep claiming.

[MediaSlayer]

Media.... are you remembering to take your medicine? :unsure:

We can make it rain, in certain circumstances....we cant direct the course of a Hurricane. Do you realise the energy that would require?

Before we can control the weather, we have to be able to predict it in the 1st place... we cant do this at the moment, this is why your given a % for the chance of rain.

a simple google search (http://www.borderlands.com/spacewea.htm)

[peat moss]

I think the saddest part of this whole disaster is the race issue . Largely black, poor did n't vote for Bush bla bla . The looters are all black BS . Then you you have Barbara Bush putting her foot in her mouth , Wolf Blitzer 's faux pas of sooo poor, sooo black crap . He should be fired from CNN .

[j2k4]

J2, of course I'm going to call you on your previous statements.

You demanded Kofi Annan's head before any investigation was concluded, even the UN's own. You criticised the UN for running its own investigation.

Okay.

Yet you seem to be emphatic in refusing to do the same when your own president is directly involved, both as ultimate head of the organisations who are supposed to supply relief, and for conducting his own investigation.

Perhaps you can use your modly powers to manufacture a post in which I am "emphatic in refusing...", etc., but I have barely even posted here in my own thread, much less commented on Bush's role, or any investigation by anyone of anything.

Such content does not exist in this thread; you know it, and anyone else attending does also.

So I repeat that you are guilty of dual standards and hypocricy.

Merely saying it does not make it so, lynx, but again, I'm sure you could concoct something, couldn't you...

It seems to me that your government will be calling for wholesale changes at the UN for mismangement, while at the same time being incapable of organising what should have been a fairly straightforward emergency action. Perhaps that tells us the source of your hypocritical stance.

You really don't get it, do you?

You stand in judgement of every tiny thing that happens in the U.S., but wouldn't dream of being nearly so discerning, discriminating, or critical of ANYTHING that goes on at your beloved U.N..

Methinks the black pot is speaking out-of-turn, and from the shade, into the bargain.

You've got some nerve, calling me a hypocrite.