Bush takes responsibility for shortcomings...

[j2k4]

...in the federal relief effort after hurricane Katrina.

Off with his head!! ;)

Should be the end of him politically, I think.

[Peerzy]

Yeah i saw this, something i found rather Bush like was the following:

-Bush praises the minster of preventing disasters (or something like that) two weeks ago.
-Hurricane Katrine hits US.
-That minister is fired.
-Bush takes full responsability.


Bush keeps his job yet he says the poor relief effort is his fault.

[Rat Faced]

He did this yesterday didnt he?

I dont think it is the end of him though, it would have been if he hadnt as most people blame him anyway. Whether due to his attitude afterwards or the fact the cronies he appointed werent fit for the job, i think most put blame on him.

By doing this "im the man at the top, so its my fault" thing, he gathers in sympathy. Look at the wording he used. ;)

[Busyman]

Yeah i saw this, something i found rather Bush like was the following:

-Bush praises the minster of preventing disasters (or something like that) two weeks ago.
-Hurricane Katrine hits US.
-That minister is fired.
-Bush takes full responsability.


Bush keeps his job yet he says the poor relief effort is his fault.
He shouldn't lose his job for that and I actually commend him for taking responsibility. It's one thing I can jot down as being remotely redeemable. :dry:

He also didn't have much choice so it was CaptainObvious since he chose a person not qualified to head FEMA just 'cause of cronyism.

Either way I like when any President is humbled of their high horse.

edit: Rat get the hell outta my head. :ermm:

[j2k4]

[
He also didn't have much choice so it was CaptainObvious since he chose a person not qualified to head FEMA just 'cause of cronyism.

Just so; other Presidents have not done this.

[zapjb]

He should resign.

[j2k4]

He should resign.

As should the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana.

[Rat Faced]

He should resign.

As should the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana.

I Agree, on the information that appears to be there, that all 3 should go.

I'm sure that further things will come out though, before any of them do.

[j2k4]

As should the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana.

I Agree, on the information that appears to be there, that all 3 should go.

I'm sure that further things will come out though, before any of them do.

You mean we shouldn't jump too quick?

[j2k4]

It occurs to me a whimsically inclined Mother Nature could cause any number of persons in various positions of responsiblility to fall on their swords at the drop of a....natural disaster.

Any unanticipated event could suffice.

Given that politics is what it is, serving as a great brake on any expedient, the need for this mass public-servant-sacrifice should have been anticipated, if nothing else was.

[Rat Faced]

I didnt say that.

I said none of them would, and other stuff will no doubt come out.

Bush should have been impeached in 2002/03, so he is well overdue :P

[j2k4]

I didnt say that.

I said none of them would, and other stuff will no doubt come out.

Bush should have been impeached in 2002/03, so he is well overdue :P

I agree, especially as one can now be impeached and stay in office. ;)

[GepperRankins]

fucking hypocrit he is :snooty:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4243966.stm

[Busyman]

He also didn't have much choice so it was CaptainObvious since he chose a person not qualified to head FEMA just 'cause of cronyism.

Just so; other Presidents have not done this.
What...took responsiblity for something everyone blamed them for or hired incompetant people? :huh:

[j2k4]

Just so; other Presidents have not done this.
What...took responsiblity for something everyone blamed them for or hired incompetant people? :huh:

Engaged in cronyism.

Clinton didn't do this, did he?

[Santa]

The mayor of neworleans should become president
his eloquence revives the soul

[j2k4]

The mayor of neworleans should become president
his eloquence revives the soul

Roy Nagin?

Eloquence? :huh:

[zapjb]

I'm adamant only g. w. bush should resign. Nobody can shake my belief that if this had happened in an affluent white republican area, that the Federal response would have been 10 fold what it was. Fn republicans, tearing apart the USA.

[Busyman]

What...took responsiblity for something everyone blamed them for or hired incompetant people? :huh:

Engaged in cronyism.

Clinton didn't do this, did he?
I'm quite sure he did.

It's blowing up in Bush's face though so CaptainObviously.

[j2k4]

Engaged in cronyism.

Clinton didn't do this, did he?

I'm quite sure he did.

YOU'RE KIDDING!!!

You're just saying that because you're a....a....um... :huh:

[clocker]

It occurs to me a whimsically inclined Mother Nature could cause any number of persons in various positions of responsiblility to fall on their swords at the drop of a....natural disaster.

Any unanticipated event could suffice.

Your whimsical irony would be sooo much more effective if Katrina/New Orleans was in fact an "unanticipated event".
Since it was not, I fail to see your point.

[Busyman]

I'm quite sure he did.

YOU'RE KIDDING!!!

You're just saying that because you're a....a....um... :huh:
Exactly. ;)

[j2k4]

It occurs to me a whimsically inclined Mother Nature could cause any number of persons in various positions of responsiblility to fall on their swords at the drop of a....natural disaster.

Any unanticipated event could suffice.

Your whimsical irony would be sooo much more effective if Katrina/New Orleans was in fact an "unanticipated event".
Since it was not, I fail to see your point.

Well then.

How's about an earthquake... let's say, epicentered in St. Louis, 9.0 Richter, shakes the shit out of Chicago, Lake Michigan boils, and the Mississippi's flow changes direction (again).

Not anticipated, insofar as it could not be forecast with any degree of timeliness at all.

Just think:

Two (maybe more) big-city mayors, two Governors (maybe more), millions of deaths (maybe more!), and a President into the bargain.

How would that be? ;)

[Busyman]

Your whimsical irony would be sooo much more effective if Katrina/New Orleans was in fact an "unanticipated event".
Since it was not, I fail to see your point.

Well then.

How's about an earthquake... let's say, epicentered in St. Louis, 9.0 Richter, shakes the shit out of Chicago, Lake Michigan boils, and the Mississippi's flow changes direction (again).

Not anticipated, insofar as it could not be forecast with any degree of timeliness at all.

Just think:

Two (maybe more) big-city mayors, two Governors (maybe more), millions of deaths (maybe more!), and a President into the bargain.

How would that be? ;)
It would be

in fact an "unanticipated event".
but we would still

fail to see your point.

:ermm:

[j2k4]

It would be

in fact an "unanticipated event".
but we would still

fail to see your point.

:ermm:

I'd ask Clocker, were I you; just to be sure.

I believe he said that Katrina was not an unanticipated event.

True enough.

I was merely going a bit further to provide him with one.

I'm down for a nap, now.

Have to work in the morning, you know?

[GepperRankins]

making up a scenario from nothing so you can use it instead of the real scenario in your argument, smells

[Busyman]

It would be

but we would still

fail to see your point.

:ermm:

I'd ask Clocker, were I you; just to be sure.

I believe he said that Katrina was not an unanticipated event.

True enough.

I was merely going a bit further to provide him with one.

I'm down for a nap, now.

Have to work in the morning, you know?
Uh...er...uh...Katrina was not unanticipated....just like he said....so what what was your point again.....irregardless to both posts? :blink:

Before you go to sleep, don't forget to put a towel down and put on your maxi-pad. Mmk?

Sleep it off j2, sleep it off.

[vidcc]

The buck always stops at the top. This doesn't just apply to Bush but any leader. This doesn't mean that he was directly at fault. I applaud Bush for this and hope he really means it. I don't expect anyone to be mistake free but I do expect Bush as our leader to do something about those mistakes.
Bush did not cause the hurricane even though his environmental policy leaves a lot to be desired. This said it is not the event that is the problem here, rather the reaction to the event. Bush is to blame for appointing the wrong people. He made a political choice when he needed a choice on ability.
There was incompetence at all levels. From the bottom up there were errors in judgement and bad planning. It is no excuse to say things were unexpected. FEMA stands for "Federal Emergency Management Agency" they are supposed to deal with the unexpected. Although by all accounts this event was on the list of possibilities.
9/11 was supposed to have woken us up. Apparently it didn't.

I could go on about this but it would just be a rant.

Individual citizens failed themselves. Some could have taken preventative action and chose not to...others were literally unable to, (these are the true victims)
The mayor of N.O. failed in many areas leading up to the event and now seems to be trying to make out that he was the only competent one about.
Gov. Blanco was indecisive and seemed to be more concerned about how her actions would affect her political career.
FEMA management failed to live up to reasonable expectations.

On the flip side we can be proud of those that did their jobs. The men and women on the ground. We saw true heroes in action even though they had inept management.

So Kev. I am not jumping on the "anti Bush" bandwagon here. For once what stands out is someone actually accepting accountability. For his part in choosing friends over talent Bush is to blame..... His acceptance of that blame is commendable, possibly the most commendable thing I have seen him do and I would expect it of any president.

[j2k4]

It would be

but we would still


:ermm:

I'd ask Clocker, were I you; just to be sure.

I believe he said that Katrina was not an unanticipated event.

True enough.

I was merely going a bit further to provide him with one.

I'm down for a nap, now.

Have to work in the morning, you know?
Uh...er...uh...Katrina was not unanticipated....just like he said....so what what was your point again.....irregardless to both posts? :blink:

Before you go to sleep, don't forget to put a towel down and put on your maxi-pad. Mmk?

Sleep it off j2, sleep it off.


Follow me now, B.-

If there were an earthquake as I've described, I'm sure you could imagine events being even worse than I've painted them, and likewise the difficulty of addressing the damage easily as overwhelming as Katrina, but the prevailing school of thought here would demand that the self-righteous who go about demanding the heads of all those who have fallen short of their pie-in-the-sky expectations be placated almost before any aid is dispensed.

If a certain death-count stipulates a resignation, what would that number be, pray tell?

If massive suffering is the measuring-stick, how is that to be calibrated?

Do you know of any way to gauge what level of public outrage should be required to effect the removal of a critically-placed public official?

If the demanded resignations take place, who is then charged with timely replacement of these officials, given that, in this case, "timely" means "yesterday"?

Is it your view that a disruption of command authority is a small consideration?

There is here unanimous agreement that the handling of Katrina was, at least in the first few days, an unrelenting fiasco; and some heads currently intact will ultimately have to roll.

Who is qualified to fix a schedule for this?

Should we name a commission, a la 9/11 to study this?

Who shall appoint it?

Is there anyone without a rooting interest in the outcome of any such investigation?

[Rat Faced]

Will the Duct Tape man be qualified to handle anything?

Wasn't he the one that thought Plastic Sheeting and Duct Tape would stop the consequences of a biological/chemical attack... and every American home should stock up on them? :unsure:

[Rat Faced]

Ok... now i dont know how it all works, but David Paulison was in charge of "Emergency Preparedness"...

Does that mean the boss has resigned in favour of the guy that actually did the fuckup?

Im actually being serious in the question.. as I said, i dont know how FEMA is organised..

[j2k4]

Ok... now i dont know how it all works, but David Paulison was in charge of "Emergency Preparedness"...

Does that mean the boss has resigned in favour of the guy that actually did the fuckup?

Im actually being serious in the question.. as I said, i dont know how FEMA is organised..

The problem was essentially a reluctance at local and state levels to face the true threat Katrina presented, combined with the two additional factors of incompetence at FEMA (Miller), and a belief on everyone's part that the duty of pulling the trigger on the whole operation belonged to the "other guy".

Paulison was not in that decision-making hierarchy, and so presumably bears no responsibility.

On the other hand, it could be argued that he works for Bush and is thus tainted...

[Busyman]

I'd ask Clocker, were I you; just to be sure.

I believe he said that Katrina was not an unanticipated event.

True enough.

I was merely going a bit further to provide him with one.

I'm down for a nap, now.

Have to work in the morning, you know?
Uh...er...uh...Katrina was not unanticipated....just like he said....so what what was your point again.....irregardless to both posts? :blink:

Before you go to sleep, don't forget to put a towel down and put on your maxi-pad. Mmk?

Sleep it off j2, sleep it off.


Follow me now, B.-

If there were an earthquake as I've described, I'm sure you could imagine events being even worse than I've painted them, and likewise the difficulty of addressing the damage easily as overwhelming as Katrina, but the prevailing school of thought here would demand that the self-righteous who go about demanding the heads of all those who have fallen short of their pie-in-the-sky expectations be placated almost before any aid is dispensed.

If a certain death-count stipulates a resignation, what would that number be, pray tell?

If massive suffering is the measuring-stick, how is that to be calibrated?

Do you know of any way to gauge what level of public outrage should be required to effect the removal of a critically-placed public official?

If the demanded resignations take place, who is then charged with timely replacement of these officials, given that, in this case, "timely" means "yesterday"?

Is it your view that a disruption of command authority is a small consideration?

There is here unanimous agreement that the handling of Katrina was, at least in the first few days, an unrelenting fiasco; and some heads currently intact will ultimately have to roll.

Who is qualified to fix a schedule for this?

Should we name a commission, a la 9/11 to study this?

Who shall appoint it?

Is there anyone without a rooting interest in the outcome of any such investigation?
There were fuck-ups before the storm. I'm talking aftermath. Plus you are barking up the wrong resignation tree....that's Rat.

In the aftermath, help seemed timed for Presidential arrival.

Please get off the earthquake doohicky 'cause clocker already adressed that.

We've had earthquakes before.

All in all I think.....I hope Bush gets his head outta his ass. "If your best friend ain't qualified for Emergency Management, get'im a job in oil."

[j2k4]

...you are barking up the wrong resignation tree....that's Rat.

Oh-sorry.

So you don't think he should resign?


Please get off the earthquake doohicky 'cause clocker already adressed that.

No, he did not.

Sorry.

[j2k4]

The following was not for Busyman after all, but for others.

Or so I've been told.




If there were an earthquake as I've described, I'm sure you could imagine events being even worse than I've painted them, and likewise the difficulty of addressing the damage easily as overwhelming as Katrina, but the prevailing school of thought here would demand that the self-righteous who go about demanding the heads of all those who have fallen short of their pie-in-the-sky expectations be placated almost before any aid is dispensed.

If a certain death-count stipulates a resignation, what would that number be, pray tell?

If massive suffering is the measuring-stick, how is that to be calibrated?

Do you know of any way to gauge what level of public outrage should be required to effect the removal of a critically-placed public official?

If the demanded resignations take place, who is then charged with timely replacement of these officials, given that, in this case, "timely" means "yesterday"?

Is it your view that a disruption of command authority is a small consideration?

There is here unanimous agreement that the handling of Katrina was, at least in the first few days, an unrelenting fiasco; and some heads currently intact will ultimately have to roll.

Who is qualified to fix a schedule for this?

Should we name a commission, a la 9/11 to study this?

Who shall appoint it?

Is there anyone without a rooting interest in the outcome of any such investigation?

[lynx]

J2, if and when earthquake prediction becomes as obvious as the impending arrival of Katrina, your points may well be valid. However, as far as I am aware at the present time there are no reliable predictors which indicate when a devastating earthquake is going to occur.

Therefore, when one does occur it is hardly surprising that emergency preperations may not be in the correct place to deal with the aftermath.

WRT Hurricane Katrina, I live over 3000 miles away, I had a good idea of what was going to happen, it was in the news. People all over Europe had a good idea what was going to happen, it was in the news. People in China had a good idea what was going to happen, it was in the news. So how come the people at FEMA seem to have been unaware what was going to happen? From your comments we should probably assume they were gearing up for an earthquake.

[clocker]

The following was not for Busyman after all, but for others.

Or so I've been told.




If there were an earthquake as I've described, I'm sure you could imagine events being even worse than I've painted them, and likewise the difficulty of addressing the damage easily as overwhelming as Katrina, but the prevailing school of thought here would demand that the self-righteous who go about demanding the heads of all those who have fallen short of their pie-in-the-sky expectations be placated almost before any aid is dispensed.
Which critics are withholding aid till resignations are accepted? A very nice political move (used well by both parties sadly)...claim that now is not the time for criticism, but to join together and help the victems, we'll look into it later.
Later, naturally the response will be "Why are you dragging up all this old dirt? It's politically motivated!"

If a certain death-count stipulates a resignation, what would that number be, pray tell?Irrelevant

If massive suffering is the measuring-stick, how is that to be calibrated?
As above
Do you know of any way to gauge what level of public outrage should be required to effect the removal of a critically-placed public official?

If the demanded resignations take place, who is then charged with timely replacement of these officials, given that, in this case, "timely" means "yesterday"?

Is it your view that a disruption of command authority is a small consideration?
A chain of command that malfunctions under live fire conditions is hardly worth preserving,is it?

There is here unanimous agreement that the handling of Katrina was, at least in the first few days, an unrelenting fiasco; and some heads currently intact will ultimately have to roll.

Who is qualified to fix a schedule for this?
I imagine that the person with the most to gain (i.e. Bush), would be the most enthusiastic to initiate any inquiry that satiates the public outrage.
Should we name a commission, a la 9/11 to study this?

Who shall appoint it?

Is there anyone without a rooting interest in the outcome of any such investigation?
No.
Why should there be?

[j2k4]

J2, if and when earthquake prediction becomes as obvious as the impending arrival of Katrina, your points may well be valid. However, as far as I am aware at the present time there are no reliable predictors which indicate when a devastating earthquake is going to occur.

Therefore, when one does occur it is hardly surprising that emergency preperations may not be in the correct place to deal with the aftermath.

WRT Hurricane Katrina, I live over 3000 miles away, I had a good idea of what was going to happen, it was in the news. People all over Europe had a good idea what was going to happen, it was in the news. People in China had a good idea what was going to happen, it was in the news. So how come the people at FEMA seem to have been unaware what was going to happen? From your comments we should probably assume they were gearing up for an earthquake.


Well, lynx, I am very well aware that you are tone-deaf to any brand of sarcasm apart from your own; I am loathe to explain it to you.

[j2k4]

The following was not for Busyman after all, but for others.

Or so I've been told.



So-

Should he resign?

[Busyman]

...you are barking up the wrong resignation tree....that's Rat.

Oh-sorry.

So you don't think he should resign?


Please get off the earthquake doohicky 'cause clocker already adressed that.

No, he did not.

Sorry.
Yeah he did...as irrelevance.

lynx done the same.

[Rat Faced]

The problem was essentially a reluctance at local and state levels to face the true threat Katrina presented, combined with the two additional factors of incompetence at FEMA (Miller), and a belief on everyone's part that the duty of pulling the trigger on the whole operation belonged to the "other guy".


I posted a Timetable of things said in the Media..

The State declared a State of Emergency and requested Federal Aid and Troops before the Hurricane hit.

The National Guard that was available to the State (bearing in mind they were way undermanned due to a significant number being abroad somewhere) were initially told to keep the area clear for FEMA which was on the way..so they did, and FEMA wasn't. This meant that Charitable Aid wasn't allowed in on Federal orders and the Feds failed to materialise.

An Aircraft Carrier in the Gulf was the 1st to send helicopters into New Orleans.. these were ordered out of the area for 2 days by the Feds, and were not allowed to land military personnelle for a similar length of time.

I understand that the State and City both have big question marks and some explaining to do: Specifically about how they utterly failed to try and evacuate those that were unable to leave and why the Police and later the National Guard were told to stop looters in preference to saving lives. It has to be said though they were under Federal pressure over the latter (you did see Bush on TV didnt you?)

However, just about all the aftermath cockups appear to be Federal, not State or City.

It was the Feds that stopped immediate aid coming in from Canada and the Caribean.

It was the Feds that ordered the way into/out of the city kept clear for FEMA, which stopped charitable aid getting in from other States and the Red Cross.

It was the Feds that wouldnt let the loaded FEMA convoy in Texas to go to the scene for 3 days, much to the surprise and chagrin of the drivers of said convoy.

It was the Feds that ordered the Naval Helicopters off the scene for 2 days.

It was the Feds that wouldnt allow National Guard/Regular Military help from other States for 2-3 days.

It was the Feds that decided that the 1st Firefighters into the area from other States main priority was a presidential photo opportunity ffs..

I'm not saying WHO in the Federal Hierarchy is to blame... Bush wouldnt get his hands dirty so he was good for nothing anyway. However it was most impolitic for the members of the administration to be going fundraising, to the opera, shopping etc etc etc... whilst their citizens were dying from the Federal fuckups.

Its also very coincidental that all these federal fuckups all stopped so that everything was coming into New Orleans at exactly the same time as the President. If one was cynical, one could easily point out that the chances of so many coincidences being timed so perfectly, is most unlikely.

[j2k4]

The problem was essentially a reluctance at local and state levels to face the true threat Katrina presented, combined with the two additional factors of incompetence at FEMA (Miller), and a belief on everyone's part that the duty of pulling the trigger on the whole operation belonged to the "other guy".


I posted a Timetable of things said in the Media..

The State declared a State of Emergency and requested Federal Aid and Troops before the Hurricane hit.

The National Guard that was available to the State (bearing in mind they were way undermanned due to a significant number being abroad somewhere) were initially told to keep the area clear for FEMA which was on the way..so they did, and FEMA wasn't. This meant that Charitable Aid wasn't allowed in on Federal orders and the Feds failed to materialise.

An Aircraft Carrier in the Gulf was the 1st to send helicopters into New Orleans.. these were ordered out of the area for 2 days by the Feds, and were not allowed to land military personnelle for a similar length of time.

I understand that the State and City both have big question marks and some explaining to do: Specifically about how they utterly failed to try and evacuate those that were unable to leave and why the Police and later the National Guard were told to stop looters in preference to saving lives. It has to be said though they were under Federal pressure over the latter (you did see Bush on TV didnt you?)

However, just about all the aftermath cockups appear to be Federal, not State or City.

It was the Feds that stopped immediate aid coming in from Canada and the Caribean.

It was the Feds that ordered the way into/out of the city kept clear for FEMA, which stopped charitable aid getting in from other States and the Red Cross.

It was the Feds that wouldnt let the loaded FEMA convoy in Texas to go to the scene for 3 days, much to the surprise and chagrin of the drivers of said convoy.

It was the Feds that ordered the Naval Helicopters off the scene for 2 days.

It was the Feds that wouldnt allow National Guard/Regular Military help from other States for 2-3 days.

It was the Feds that decided that the 1st Firefighters into the area from other States main priority was a presidential photo opportunity ffs..

I'm not saying WHO in the Federal Hierarchy is to blame... Bush wouldnt get his hands dirty so he was good for nothing anyway. However it was most impolitic for the members of the administration to be going fundraising, to the opera, shopping etc etc etc... whilst their citizens were dying from the Federal fuckups.

Its also very coincidental that all these federal fuckups all stopped so that everything was coming into New Orleans at exactly the same time as the President. If one was cynical, one could easily point out that the chances of so many coincidences being timed so perfectly, is most unlikely.

And you, of course, believe all this stuff because it fits your imagined scenario, correct?

Just off the top of my head, wouldn't the Feds have been the ones to dispatch helios from a carrier to begin with, before, according to your google, they countermended their own order?

Silly.

If such shenanigans were the norm (as your historical posting would suggest), our media-which is NOT pro-Bush, BTW-would have fried his ass long before he ran for re-election, Rat.

Nobody, not even Clinton, would have been allowed to continue in any executive capacity pulling capers of that sort.

Use your head, man.

[lynx]

I'm sure someone will tell me if I've got this wrong, but doesn't the very fact that a Federal State of Emergency has been declared mean the the Governor and Mayor are effectively out of the loop? I thought that was done in order to create a clear chain of command.

[Rat Faced]

I posted a Timetable of things said in the Media..

The State declared a State of Emergency and requested Federal Aid and Troops before the Hurricane hit.

The National Guard that was available to the State (bearing in mind they were way undermanned due to a significant number being abroad somewhere) were initially told to keep the area clear for FEMA which was on the way..so they did, and FEMA wasn't. This meant that Charitable Aid wasn't allowed in on Federal orders and the Feds failed to materialise.

An Aircraft Carrier in the Gulf was the 1st to send helicopters into New Orleans.. these were ordered out of the area for 2 days by the Feds, and were not allowed to land military personnelle for a similar length of time.

I understand that the State and City both have big question marks and some explaining to do: Specifically about how they utterly failed to try and evacuate those that were unable to leave and why the Police and later the National Guard were told to stop looters in preference to saving lives. It has to be said though they were under Federal pressure over the latter (you did see Bush on TV didnt you?)

However, just about all the aftermath cockups appear to be Federal, not State or City.

It was the Feds that stopped immediate aid coming in from Canada and the Caribean.

It was the Feds that ordered the way into/out of the city kept clear for FEMA, which stopped charitable aid getting in from other States and the Red Cross.

It was the Feds that wouldnt let the loaded FEMA convoy in Texas to go to the scene for 3 days, much to the surprise and chagrin of the drivers of said convoy.

It was the Feds that ordered the Naval Helicopters off the scene for 2 days.

It was the Feds that wouldnt allow National Guard/Regular Military help from other States for 2-3 days.

It was the Feds that decided that the 1st Firefighters into the area from other States main priority was a presidential photo opportunity ffs..

I'm not saying WHO in the Federal Hierarchy is to blame... Bush wouldnt get his hands dirty so he was good for nothing anyway. However it was most impolitic for the members of the administration to be going fundraising, to the opera, shopping etc etc etc... whilst their citizens were dying from the Federal fuckups.

Its also very coincidental that all these federal fuckups all stopped so that everything was coming into New Orleans at exactly the same time as the President. If one was cynical, one could easily point out that the chances of so many coincidences being timed so perfectly, is most unlikely.

And you, of course, believe all this stuff because it fits your imagined scenario, correct?

Just off the top of my head, wouldn't the Feds have been the ones to dispatch helios from a carrier to begin with, before, according to your google, they countermended their own order?

Silly.

If such shenanigans were the norm (as your historical posting would suggest), our media-which is NOT pro-Bush, BTW-would have fried his ass long before he ran for re-election, Rat.

Nobody, not even Clinton, would have been allowed to continue in any executive capacity pulling capers of that sort.

Use your head, man.

Strange, because that "order of events" were things that were said in your media, on the dates that they said it.

Are you saying that your media told a lie when they said that the State had declared a State of Emergency and asked for Federal Help? The reports were published prior to the Hurricane.

I mean, various media sources were used..and the dates those articles were published nationally.

Are you saying that he National Guard troopers that were interviewed on TV were lying? That they were such good actors that some were nearly in tears at the orders they'd been given?

That the FEMA drivers were such good actors?

That the TV photoshoot was doctored to show Firemen that werent there with the Prez, that they were in fact helping in the Disaster Relief work that they'd volunteered for and gone for?

As to the carrier... there is such thing as initiative. Im pretty sure that if you or I had been in charge of a carrier we wouldnt have awaited orders to help in this case. The question is and should be "why was the carrier ordered to land their copters", not "why were the 'copters not ordered in"

My "Imagined Scenario", is merely taking the reports of your media, on the dates they were reported, and putting them together.

Your scenario is, by the looks of it, to accept whatever the whitehouse tells you happened, on the date that they said it happened... despite the fact they have already had to withdraw some of their statements as incorrect and untrue.

[whypikonme]

Your scenario is, by the looks of it, to accept whatever the whitehouse tells you happened, on the date that they said it happened...

Isn't that what being a Republican is all about? :huh:

[j2k4]

Your scenario is, by the looks of it, to accept whatever the whitehouse tells you happened, on the date that they said it happened... despite the fact they have already had to withdraw some of their statements as incorrect and untrue.

I suggest we re-visit the issue when all the investigations of the incident are completed; I'm aware you all are eager to continue picking at it in the meantime, but you will have to do it without me.

BTW- as a point of interest, given all that I have learned about "Able Danger" (google that, if you like) I've tossed my "Official" copy of the 9/11 Commission's report into the trash, as it's reference-value and accuracy are totally undermined by Able Danger and it's ramifications.

You guys love cover-up conspiracies, there's one for you...

[Rat Faced]

Your scenario is, by the looks of it, to accept whatever the whitehouse tells you happened, on the date that they said it happened... despite the fact they have already had to withdraw some of their statements as incorrect and untrue.

I suggest we re-visit the issue when all the investigations of the incident are completed; I'm aware you all are eager to continue picking at it in the meantime, but you will have to do it without me.

BTW- as a point of interest, given all that I have learned about "Able Danger" (google that, if you like) I've tossed my "Official" copy of the 9/11 Commission's report into the trash, as it's reference-value and accuracy are totally undermined by Able Danger and it's ramifications.

You guys love cover-up conspiracies, there's one for you...

As to the investigation, i'm sure most of us would love to... if we were sure there was going to be an independant investigation.

Never heard of Able Danger until you mentioned it here, however the 911 commission lost all credibility when people were allowed to testify without being under oath and were allowed to not bother testifying at all..

[j2k4]

I suggest we re-visit the issue when all the investigations of the incident are completed; I'm aware you all are eager to continue picking at it in the meantime, but you will have to do it without me.

BTW- as a point of interest, given all that I have learned about "Able Danger" (google that, if you like) I've tossed my "Official" copy of the 9/11 Commission's report into the trash, as it's reference-value and accuracy are totally undermined by Able Danger and it's ramifications.

You guys love cover-up conspiracies, there's one for you...

As to the investigation, i'm sure most of us would love to... if we were sure there was going to be an independant investigation.

Never heard of Able Danger until you mentioned it here, however the 911 commission lost all credibility when people were allowed to testify without being under oath and were allowed to not bother testifying at all..

As well as the fact the Commission itself was tainted by inclusion of one Jamie Gorelick, whose integral role in the Clinton administration's cover-up of it's role (or lack thereof) in fighting terrorists/-ism, which fact was overlooked/ignored by the commission and media.

I hear she lunched with Sandy Berger almost every day, back then.

Anyway-that's it for me here.

[Rat Faced]

I suppose the decision to give the bodycount contract to a family friend wont make any difference either... despite the fact that its sister company dumped 100s of bodies in woods in Florida to make room for more bodies in its cemetaries.

Kenyon is a subsidiary of SCI, owned by Waltrip who contributed to the Bush election campaign (father and son) and also contributed more than $100,000 to the George HW Bush Presidential Library.

Waltrip also owns the Menorah Gardens Cemetery chain.. who's general manager committed suicide in strange circumstances (carbon monoxide poisoning outside his parents house) after the scandal of the bodies came to light, and before he could be interogated.

Amazing how many people appear to commit suicide when investigations start that could implicate people in things huh?


However, the thing thats striking (other than the expected cronyism) is that even when under pressure of a badly bungled response..he is still willing to hire a company with a proven track record of gross mismanagement of mortuary services.

:01:

[vidcc]

A reliable factcheck (http://www.factcheck.org/article348.html) of the events so far. Non partisan