The Rambo Granny of Melbourne, Australia

[j2k4]

Gun-toting granny Ava Estelle, 81, was so ticked-off when two thugs raped her 18-year-old granddaughter that she tracked the unsuspecting ex-cons down - - and shot off their testicles.

The old lady spent a week hunting those men down -- and when she found them, she took revenge on them in her own special way, said Melbourne police investigator Evan Delp. Then she took a taxi to the nearest police station, laid the gun on the sergeant's desk and told him as calm as could be:

'Those bastards will never rape anybody again, by God.' Cops say convicted rapist and robber Davis Furth, 33, lost both his penis and his testicles when outraged Ava opened fire with a 9-mm pistol in the hotel room where he and former prison cellmate Stanley Thomas, 29, were holed up.

The wrinkled avenger also blew Thomas' testicles to kingdom come, but doctors managed to save his mangled penis, police said. The one guy, Thomas, didn't lose his manhood, but the doctor I talked to said he won't be using it the way he used to, Detective Delp told reporters. Both men are still in pretty bad shape, but I think they're just happy to be alive after what they've been through.

The Rambo Granny swung into action August 21 after her granddaughter Debbie was carjacked and raped in broad daylight by two knife-wielding creeps in a section of town bordering on skid row. "When I saw the look on my Debbie's face that night in the hospital, I decided I was going to go out and get those bastards myself 'cause I figured the Law would go easy on them," recalled the retired library worker. "And I wasn't scared of them, either-- because I've got me a gun and I've been shootin' all my life. And I wasn't dumb enough to turn it in when the law changed about owning one."

So, using a police artist's sketch of the suspects and Debbie's description of the sickos', tough-as-nails Ava spent seven days prowling the wino-infested neighborhood where the crime took place till she spotted the ill fated rapists entering their flophouse hotel.

I knew it was them the minute I saw 'em, but I shot a picture of 'em anyway and took it back to Debbie and she said sure as hell, it was them, the oldster recalled.

So I went back to that hotel and found their room and knocked on the door and the minute the big one, Furth, opened the door, I shot 'em right square between the legs, right where it would really hurt 'em most, you know.
Then I went in and shot the other one as he backed up pleading to me to spare him. Then I went down to the police station and turned myself in.

Now, baffled lawmen are trying to figure out exactly how to deal with the vigilante granny. What she did was wrong, and she broke the law, but it is difficult to throw an 81-year-old woman in prison, Det. Delp said, especially when 3 million people in the city want to nominate her for sainthood and a medal.

DEPORT HER TO AMERICA -- WE NEED HER!!!

[Busyman]

What if she was senile?:lookaroun

She shot their nuts off. Justice served.

She should get jail time. Justice served.

Her actions were nice and everything but what if they WERE the wrong guys?:unsure:

Good post btw.

[j2k4]

What if she was senile?:lookaroun

She shot their nuts off. Justice served.

She should get jail time. Justice served.

Her actions were nice and everything but what if they WERE the wrong guys?:unsure:

Then she'll go away for a long time.

Justice served.

[Skiz]

Go granny!

In what country did this take place? :unsure:

EDIT: Duh...see thread title. :stars:

[j2k4]

Go granny!

In what country did this take place? :unsure:

:huh:

[Busyman]

What if she was senile?:lookaroun

She shot their nuts off. Justice served.

She should get jail time. Justice served.

Her actions were nice and everything but what if they WERE the wrong guys?:unsure:

Then she'll go away for a long time.

Justice served.
Not that long. She's 81.

Do you think she should go to jail for premeditated murder?

[Busyman]

Go granny!

In what country did this take place? :unsure:

:huh:
...and no, he is not rodding. :no:

[j2k4]

Then she'll go away for a long time.

Justice served.
Not that long. She's 81.

Do you think she should go to jail for premeditated murder?

Not until she murders someone. :huh:

[Busyman]

Not that long. She's 81.

Do you think she should go to jail for premeditated murder?

Not until she murders someone. :huh:
Damn, I tried.:happy:

Do you think she should go to jail for shooting the fellas?

[j2k4]

Not until she murders someone. :huh:
Damn, I tried.:happy:

Do you think she should go to jail for shooting the fellas?

Yes, I think she should.

I am greatly heartened, however, by the distinct and likely probability she will not. :)

[Busyman]

Damn, I tried.:happy:

Do you think she should go to jail for shooting the fellas?

Yes, I think she should.

I am greatly heartened, however, by the distinct and likely probability she will not. :)
Why?

[j2k4]

Yes, I think she should.

I am greatly heartened, however, by the distinct and likely probability she will not. :)
Why?

I am not above the odd vigilantist thought.

Street justice is sometimes all there is.

I'm sure you know this.

[Busyman]

Why?

I am not above the odd vigilantist thought.

Street justice is sometimes all there is.

I'm sure you know this.
Only when that's "all there is".

This was not the case.


'cause I figured the Law would go easy on themain't good enough.


edit: funny I'm watching Walking Tall ('04) right now. :lol:

[j2k4]

I am not above the odd vigilantist thought.

Street justice is sometimes all there is.

I'm sure you know this.
Only when that's "all there is".

This was not the case.



I did say "sometimes", and yes, I realize this isn't one of them.

[vidcc]

Not that long. She's 81.

Do you think she should go to jail for premeditated murder?

Not until she murders someone. :huh:

I'm sure at some point rev. Pat has argued that killing sperm is murder... same as masturbation. :pinch:

At least the rape victim didn't live in south dakota, or she would have had to have the rapists child as a reminder for the rest of her life.

[j2k4]

At least the rape victim didn't live in south dakota, or she would have had to have the rapists child as a reminder for the rest of her life.

A presumptive comment at best; the girl was raped, how do you interject impregnation?

A funny way to merge two threads-what has abortion or South Dakota have to do with anything?

Oh yeah, I forgot.

You're a liberal, and every other issue is inextricably tied to abortion. ;)

[vidcc]

At least the rape victim didn't live in south dakota, or she would have had to have the rapists child as a reminder for the rest of her life.

A presumptive comment at best; the girl was raped, how do you interject impregnation?
OK IF she conceived...happier ?

A funny way to merge two threads-what has abortion or South Dakota have to do with anything?
Well the new (as it stands uncontitutional) law bans abortion even in cases of rape (RU-486 is considered an abortion).
Oh yeah, I forgot.

You're a liberal, and every other issue is inextricably tied to abortion. ;)
:rolleyes:

[Busyman]

At least the rape victim didn't live in south dakota, or she would have had to have the rapists child as a reminder for the rest of her life.

A presumptive comment at best; the girl was raped, how do you interject impregnation?

A funny way to merge two threads-what has abortion or South Dakota have to do with anything?

Oh yeah, I forgot.

You're a liberal, and every other issue is inextricably tied to abortion. ;)
Just so, if this did happened in S. Dakota and she was impregnated, she would have to bear the child(ren). I wonder if it would matter which rapist was daddy.

This is where the control of one's own body comes into play.

I am curious as to whether the morning after pill would be available since that doesn't involve abortion. I wonder will they make masturbation illegal too. (http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1031.htm):lol: :lol:

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood"

"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body."

edit: damnit vid, ya beat me to it.

[j2k4]

A presumptive comment at best; the girl was raped, how do you interject impregnation?
OK IF she conceived...happier ?

A funny way to merge two threads-what has abortion or South Dakota have to do with anything?
Well the new (as it stands uncontitutional) law bans abortion even in cases of rape (RU-486 is considered an abortion).
Oh yeah, I forgot.

You're a liberal, and every other issue is inextricably tied to abortion. ;)
:rolleyes:

Well, then.

We seem to have established that the Granny from Melbourne, Australia, avenged her grand-daughter's honor and saved her from an unwanted pregnancy forced upon her remotely by the American state of South Dakota, which inconvenience would have somehow lawfully required her to relocate there for the sole purpose of lending propriety and credibility to vid's post?

Hooooooookay. :dry:

[Busyman]

:rolleyes:

Well, then.

We seem to have established that the Granny from Melbourne, Australia, avenged her grand-daughter's honor and saved her from an unwanted pregnancy forced upon her remotely by the American state of South Dakota, which inconvenience would have somehow lawfully required her to relocate there for the sole purpose of lending propriety and credibility to vid's post?

Hooooooookay. :dry:
Since it's been established that vid's post was a what-if scenario really having nothing to do with Granny anymore and simply serving as a segway to the question at hand, we will assume that you cannot answer or will not answer. Oh that's right you need an actual question and question mark.

:dry:

[vidcc]

:rolleyes:

Well, then.

We seem to have established that the Granny from Melbourne, Australia, avenged her grand-daughter's honor and saved her from an unwanted pregnancy forced upon her remotely by the American state of South Dakota, which inconvenience would have somehow lawfully required her to relocate there for the sole purpose of lending propriety and credibility to vid's post?

Hooooooookay. :dry:



DEPORT HER TO AMERICA -- WE NEED HER!!!
_____________
Apart from what busy said. I am taking a wide issue of rape.

Now I agree with her idea but I want it done with a blowlamp and after a fair trial. However this punishes the rapist while S.D. (has to be a conservative thing because the democrats tried to put a rape and incest exception in, the republicans wouldn't allow it) wants to punish the victim as well.... She was probably asking for it, the hussie :dry:

Still, in some parts of the world the rape victim would be stoned to death "because she didn't fight the rapist off" thus allowed herself to be raped and is just as guilty.

But I guess the subject of rape is unconnected unless it's in Australia

[j2k4]

Well, then.

We seem to have established that the Granny from Melbourne, Australia, avenged her grand-daughter's honor and saved her from an unwanted pregnancy forced upon her remotely by the American state of South Dakota, which inconvenience would have somehow lawfully required her to relocate there for the sole purpose of lending propriety and credibility to vid's post?

Hooooooookay. :dry:
Since it's been established that vid's post was a what-if scenario really having nothing to do with Granny anymore and simply serving as a segway to the question at hand, we will assume that you cannot answer or will not answer. Oh that's right you need an actual question and question mark.

:dry:

Oh, FFS-

Vid magically concocts a question that doesn't exist, and you somehow divine that he has indeed asked a question, and presume to demand an answer?

How many mushrooms did you take? :frusty:

[vidcc]

Vid magically concocts a question that doesn't exist

:huh:

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

:rolleyes:

Well, then.

We seem to have established that the Granny from Melbourne, Australia, avenged her grand-daughter's honor

Just wondering, if we accept the avenging of her grand-daughter's honor, than mustn't we also accept the killings of young women whos very own families killed them to maintain the honor of the family?

Just last year, wasn't there a small "spree" in Germany were somewhere like 7 or 8 women were murdered by male family members because they were shamed by the women and their desire to live more western lifestyles?

Edit:Just a silly little statement made by one of the men who killed his relative, "the whore lived like a German".

[j2k4]

Vid magically concocts a question that doesn't exist

:huh:

Exactly.

[vidcc]

:huh:

Exactly.
Does any question exist until it's asked :unsure:

[j2k4]

Well, then.

We seem to have established that the Granny from Melbourne, Australia, avenged her grand-daughter's honor

Just wondering, if we accept the avenging of her grand-daughter's honor, than mustn't we also accept the killings of young women whos very own families killed them to maintain the honor of the family?

Just last year, wasn't there a small "spree" in Germany were somewhere like 7 or 8 women were murdered by male family members because they were shamed by the women and their desire to live more western lifestyles?

Edit:Just a silly little statement made by one of the men who killed his relative, "the whore lived like a German".


Granny didn't kill her grand-daughter out of some misbegotten idiotic cultural contempt for women.

I would say her assessment as to who committed the moral trespass was bereft of the hypocrisy demonstrated in the instance(s) you've cited, HMPL.

With a nod toward your apparent intent to decry the taking of life in a general way, of course.

I rather think Granny would take out after these miscreant relatives...

[j2k4]

Exactly.
Does any question exist until it's asked :unsure:

Not in my experience.

Did you ask a question?

Did Busyman?

[hamm]

While I realize HMPLs post compares apples to cucumbers, I still don't believe Granny should get off without punishment.

After all, it's not as if she herself was the victim of the rapists - in which case I could possibly empathise a little more. But going off half-cocked <pun> and shooting her adult granddaughter's attackers was in no way justified.

She should have let the authorities handle the situation.

[j2k4]

While I realize HMPLs post compares apples to cucumbers, I still don't believe Granny should get off without punishment.

After all, it's not as if she herself was the victim of the rapists - in which case I could possibly empathise a little more. But going off half-cocked <pun> and shooting her adult granddaughter's attackers was in no way justified.

She should have let the authorities handle the situation.

Well, as I said, I believe she should be punished too.

I also said I'd be hard-put to avoid a large grin if they gave her a miss. ;)

[Busyman]

Since it's been established that vid's post was a what-if scenario really having nothing to do with Granny anymore and simply serving as a segway to the question at hand, we will assume that you cannot answer or will not answer. Oh that's right you need an actual question and question mark.

:dry:

Oh, FFS-

Vid magically concocts a question that doesn't exist, and you somehow divine that he has indeed asked a question, and presume to demand an answer?

How many mushrooms did you take? :frusty:
Stop smoking crack.

There doesn't need to be a question for there to be a reply to what a post was about.

You should know that, cut-and-paste boy.

[Busyman]

While I realize HMPLs post compares apples to cucumbers, I still don't believe Granny should get off without punishment.

After all, it's not as if she herself was the victim of the rapists - in which case I could possibly empathise a little more. But going off half-cocked <pun> and shooting her adult granddaughter's attackers was in no way justified.

She should have let the authorities handle the situation.

Well, as I said, I believe she should be punished too.

I also said I'd be hard-put to avoid a large grin if they gave her a miss. ;)
Riiight, condoning it.:mellow:

[j2k4]

Well, as I said, I believe she should be punished too.

I also said I'd be hard-put to avoid a large grin if they gave her a miss. ;)
Riiight, condoning it.:mellow:

Sometimes standing on principle leads to such conflicts, but I'm sure you are not aware of this, practicing as you do the art of non-principled, bendo-flexy, "independent", thinking.

Oh, yeah-:)

[hamm]

Sometimes standing on principle leads to such conflicts, but I'm sure you are not aware of this, practicing as you do the art of non-principled, bendo-flexy, "independent", thinking.
:wacko: Whoa... major Gumby flashback going off in my head.



http://www.meshirer.net/gumby/fishing.gif



Note: Bonus points for the fact that he's holding a rod. http://www.kolobok.wrg.ru/smiles/light_skin/bb.gif

[j2k4]

Sometimes standing on principle leads to such conflicts, but I'm sure you are not aware of this, practicing as you do the art of non-principled, bendo-flexy, "independent", thinking.
:wacko: Whoa... major Gumby flashback going off in my head.



http://www.meshirer.net/gumby/fishing.gif



Note: Bonus points for the fact that he's holding a rod. http://www.kolobok.wrg.ru/smiles/light_skin/bb.gif

But a minor penalty for holding the rod incorrectly.

[Ava Estelle]

Did none of you fools think to check up on this story before you posted these libelous comments about me?

Have you never heard of the term Urban Legend?


We've not been able to find any record of the grandmother or the suspects. The folks at the Darwin Awards have listed this story as an urban legend. A man from the Office of Public Prosecutions in Australia wrote to the Darwin Awards saying he's searched the records and found nothing about the two suspects or the granny.

I guess you can be partly forgiven for your ignorance about Australia, after all, how could you know that we don't have 'Skid Rows' here, that's a US institution, Australia is a welfare state. We also don't have car jackings, that's a South African sport.

But surely you cannot be forgiven for missing the glaring clues; I walked through the streets at night with a sketch and recognised the rapist, took his photo and showed it to my granddaughter? Do me a favour. And the investigator's name was Evan Delp? :lol:

Remember in future, Google is your friend, until you believe everything it tells you.

[Busyman]

Did none of you fools think to check up on this story before you posted these libelous comments about me?

Have you never heard of the term Urban Legend?


We've not been able to find any record of the grandmother or the suspects. The folks at the Darwin Awards have listed this story as an urban legend. A man from the Office of Public Prosecutions in Australia wrote to the Darwin Awards saying he's searched the records and found nothing about the two suspects or the granny.

I guess you can be partly forgiven for your ignorance about Australia, after all, how could you know that we don't have 'Skid Rows' here, that's a US institution, Australia is a welfare state. We also don't have car jackings, that's a South African sport.

But surely you cannot be forgiven for missing the glaring clues; I walked through the streets at night with a sketch and recognised the rapist, took his photo and showed it to my granddaughter? Do me a favour. And the investigator's name was Evan Delp? :lol:

Remember in future, Google is your friend, until you believe everything it tells you.
I've known for sometime but it's no fun letting the cat out of the bag all the time, Grambo.:ermm:

[3RA1N1AC]

this story reminded me a lot of the ruth gordon character in clint eastwood's "every which way but loose." for those who are unfamiliar: it's a comedy about a trucker who fights for money in bare-knuckle competitions, owns an orangutan, and has a number of oddball friends and enemies. (yes, the tv series bj & the bear basically ripped this off.) one of these friends has a mother (ruth gordon) who enjoys firing her shotgun at a gang of misbehavin' bikers.

why doesn't australia have more guns (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/bryant/index_1.html)?

[manker]

Did none of you fools think to check up on this story before you posted these libelous comments about me?

Have you never heard of the term Urban Legend?

.

I guess you can be partly forgiven for your ignorance about Australia, after all, how could you know that we don't have 'Skid Rows' here, that's a US institution, Australia is a welfare state. We also don't have car jackings, that's a South African sport.

But surely you cannot be forgiven for missing the glaring clues; I walked through the streets at night with a sketch and recognised the rapist, took his photo and showed it to my granddaughter? Do me a favour. And the investigator's name was Evan Delp? :lol:

Remember in future, Google is your friend, until you believe everything it tells you.
I've known for sometime but it's no fun letting the cat out of the bag all the time, Grambo.:ermm:
Of course you did.

/me pats Busyman's head in the most condescending manner possible.

[j2k4]

Did none of you fools think to check up on this story before you posted these libelous comments about me?

Have you never heard of the term Urban Legend?


We've not been able to find any record of the grandmother or the suspects. The folks at the Darwin Awards have listed this story as an urban legend. A man from the Office of Public Prosecutions in Australia wrote to the Darwin Awards saying he's searched the records and found nothing about the two suspects or the granny.

I guess you can be partly forgiven for your ignorance about Australia, after all, how could you know that we don't have 'Skid Rows' here, that's a US institution, Australia is a welfare state. We also don't have car jackings, that's a South African sport.

But surely you cannot be forgiven for missing the glaring clues; I walked through the streets at night with a sketch and recognised the rapist, took his photo and showed it to my granddaughter? Do me a favour. And the investigator's name was Evan Delp? :lol:

Remember in future, Google is your friend, until you believe everything it tells you.


Great first post, Ava. :)

I am disheartened to see our penchant for car-jackings is not exclusive; of course, I felt that way about "necklacing" too. :huh:

[vidcc]

[

Well, then.

We seem to have established that the Granny from Melbourne, Australia, avenged her grand-daughter's honor and saved her from an unwanted pregnancy forced upon her remotely by the American state of South Dakota, which inconvenience would have somehow lawfully required her to relocate there for the sole purpose of lending propriety and credibility to vid's post?

Hooooooookay. :dry:
Well, then.

We seem to have established that the non existant Granny from Melbourne, Australia, avenged her fictitious grand-daughter's honor and saved her from an unwanted pregnancy forced upon her remotely by the American state of South Dakota, which inconvenience would have somehow lawfully required her to relocate there for the sole purpose of lending propriety and credibility to vid's post?

Hooooooookay. :lol:

This must be a forum record:lol:


Kind of makes this post even better

Oh, FFS-

Vid magically concocts a question that doesn't exist, and you somehow divine that he has indeed asked a question, and presume to demand an answer?

How many mushrooms did you take? :lol:



In all honesty if the story is true or not, we post hypothetically all the time. So what the heck.:P

[JPaul]

In all honesty if the story is true or not, we post hypothetically all the time. So what the heck.:P
mank3r, there's someone else who needs your condescending head patting services.

[vidcc]

In all honesty if the story is true or not, we post hypothetically all the time. So what the heck.:P
mank3r, there's someone else who needs your condescending head patting services.
Show me where I said I thought the story was fake from the beginning:rolleyes: idiot

[j2k4]

mank3r, there's someone else who needs your condescending head patting services.
Show me where I said I thought the story was fake from the beginning:rolleyes: idiot

Yeah-

Who are you to say I wasn't hoodwinked? :angry:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[vidcc]

Oh I took it at face value

[JPaul]

Oh I took it at face value
Exactly, maybe you should try thinking about stuff.

Give it a try, you might like it.

[j2k4]

Oh I took it at face value

Oh, I still think it's true.

More or less.

Not face value, certainly; I think lower, maybe crotch-level. :)

[vidcc]

Oh I took it at face value
Exactly, maybe you should try thinking about stuff.

Give it a try, you might like it.

This from someone that is so literal that he gets confused when offered 2 shovels and told to take his pick :rolleyes:

btw read up. Kev was complaining that I was ignopring the story

[JPaul]

Exactly, maybe you should try thinking about stuff.

Give it a try, you might like it.

This from someone that is so literal that he gets confused when offered 2 shovels and told to take his pick :rolleyes:

btw read up. Kev was complaining that I was ignopring the story
" .... who is so literal ...."

Oh and the old shovel / pick joke was fantastic. I love the classics.

Just stick to the :snore: smillie, at least you understand how that works.

[j2k4]

Kev was complaining that I was ignopring the story

Certainly not.

I haven't the slightest idea how to do that, and even if I did, it sounds dirty.

JP, he's playing you, man.

[JPaul]

Kev was complaining that I was ignopring the story

Certainly not.

I haven't the slightest idea how to do that, and even if I did, it sounds dirty.

JP, he's playing you, man.
Thanks for the heads up, I didn't realize I was being sucked into a cunning linguistic trap.

[Barbarossa]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060228/od_nm/australia_crocodile_dc


SYDNEY (Reuters) - An Australian grandmother who saved a friend from the jaws of a crocodile by jumping on the giant reptile's back has been awarded Australia's highest civilian bravery award.

Alicia Sorohan was awarded the Star of Courage after risking her life to save a friend who was dragged from his tent by the crocodile during a camping trip in the remote far north of tropical Queensland state in October 2004.

Then 60, Sorohan jumped on the 4.2 m (14 feet) crocodile's back as it dragged him from a tent while the man's horrified wife tried to both pull him free and protect their baby.

The crocodile then turned on Sorohan and almost tore off her arm before her son shot and killed it.

"The first thing you think of was just jump on it and try to pull it off," Sorohan told Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio after the awards list was announced Monday.

"My son came around, he saw me actually jump on the crocodile and he shot it, but it hung on to my arm," she said.

"I just couldn't get away and you think, 'Oh, there's my time up'," said Sorohan, from the Queensland capital Brisbane.

Sorohan said she finds "crocs" fascinating and has since returned to their favorite camping spot, which she calls "paradise."

Crocodiles number in the tens of thousands across northern Australia and have killed about a dozen people over the past 20 years.

These Australian Grannies eh. Who knew? :huh:

[j2k4]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060228/od_nm/australia_crocodile_dc


SYDNEY (Reuters) - An Australian grandmother who saved a friend from the jaws of a crocodile by jumping on the giant reptile's back has been awarded Australia's highest civilian bravery award.

Alicia Sorohan was awarded the Star of Courage after risking her life to save a friend who was dragged from his tent by the crocodile during a camping trip in the remote far north of tropical Queensland state in October 2004.

Then 60, Sorohan jumped on the 4.2 m (14 feet) crocodile's back as it dragged him from a tent while the man's horrified wife tried to both pull him free and protect their baby.

The crocodile then turned on Sorohan and almost tore off her arm before her son shot and killed it.

"The first thing you think of was just jump on it and try to pull it off," Sorohan told Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio after the awards list was announced Monday.

"My son came around, he saw me actually jump on the crocodile and he shot it, but it hung on to my arm," she said.

"I just couldn't get away and you think, 'Oh, there's my time up'," said Sorohan, from the Queensland capital Brisbane.

Sorohan said she finds "crocs" fascinating and has since returned to their favorite camping spot, which she calls "paradise."

Crocodiles number in the tens of thousands across northern Australia and have killed about a dozen people over the past 20 years.

These Australian Grannies eh. Who knew? :huh:

I find I am suffering octogenigooglephobia, which is defined as An unreasonable fear of debunking, or being debunked. :(