I think the conditions in the world right now are favourable to a major war...

[MediaSlayer]

I sense some really foul vibes in the air, seems to me that everywhere I look in the city where I live people are pissed off and unhappy. Within the past month or so in my city there has been a series of unprovoked random shootings with no apparent motivation. Basically, a person or persons riding around in a car and targeting people at random and shooting them. This is in addition to a guy who is wanted for a string of rapes, still hasn't been found. Yes, these things are local, but look at North Korea, Israel, Taiwan, Lebanon, the cashmir situation, these problems are getting worse. If Lebanon and Syria both joined in a full scale war with Israel, it would probably draw other nations in. I even heard a report on a radio talk show that said there was a chance some enemy groups have managed to smuggle some small scale nuclear devices across the mexican border for what osama thinks of as "American Hiroshima", taking out 3 or 4 major american cities simultaneously. The effect would be crippling, I can't imagine the chaos.

I have been reading the board a little here and there, but I'm on a public connection so I don't have much time if this has been posted elsewhere i apoligize.

[j2k4]

We do have some hotspots, indeed we do.

We're far from the brink, however.

[manker]

if this has been posted elsewhere i apoligizeI very much doubt it has.

Sure, there are bad situations in the world, there always are - but there is also bright sides, if you care to look.

For example, the biggest sporting event in the world has just gone off without a (terrorist) hitch - which is something that harbingers of doom such as yourself never thought possible :)

[MediaSlayer]

i was born a pessimist don't pick on me :)

[Rat Faced]

if this has been posted elsewhere i apoligizeI very much doubt it has.

Sure, there are bad situations in the world, there always are - but there is also bright sides, if you care to look.

For example, the biggest sporting event in the world has just gone off without a (terrorist) hitch - which is something that harbingers of doom such as yourself never thought possible :)

Unfortunatly the good news does not make a story ... so rarely gets reported. :(

[JPaul]

I very much doubt it has.

Sure, there are bad situations in the world, there always are - but there is also bright sides, if you care to look.

For example, the biggest sporting event in the world has just gone off without a (terrorist) hitch - which is something that harbingers of doom such as yourself never thought possible :)

Unfortunatly the good news does not make a story ... so rarely gets reported. :(
Indeed.

[Rat Faced]

I sense some really foul vibes in the air, seems to me that everywhere I look in the city where I live people are pissed off and unhappy. Within the past month or so in my city there has been a series of unprovoked random shootings with no apparent motivation. Basically, a person or persons riding around in a car and targeting people at random and shooting them. This is in addition to a guy who is wanted for a string of rapes, still hasn't been found. Yes, these things are local, but look at North Korea, Israel, Taiwan, Lebanon, the cashmir situation, these problems are getting worse. If Lebanon and Syria both joined in a full scale war with Israel, it would probably draw other nations in. I even heard a report on a radio talk show that said there was a chance some enemy groups have managed to smuggle some small scale nuclear devices across the mexican border for what osama thinks of as "American Hiroshima", taking out 3 or 4 major american cities simultaneously. The effect would be crippling, I can't imagine the chaos.

I have been reading the board a little here and there, but I'm on a public connection so I don't have much time if this has been posted elsewhere i apoligize.

I agree, in fact I think we've already started..

A higher demand for resources and less resources available to fulfill that demand... thats one of the main reasons for any war, be it due to population pressure, in order to pull out of economic recession, or try and keep an economy running.

The other main reason is Religion.

It appears, on the face of it, that both these reasons appear to be converging at the moment.

As the Oil Peak has now passed, and just about every Developed Nation now has an Oil Based economy and with the Developing Nations gaining Oil Based Economies... there just wont be the Oil Available to fulfill the demand within just a few short years. 2/3 of the known untapped reserves are within the area of the OPEC countries.

These countries are all Islamic. The fundamentalists point to the interferance within the Region, together with the Israel/Palestine problem, and declare that its all an attack against Islam and start bombing the hell out of everyone.

This has actually brought about the very thing it wasn't to start with, as Muslims in just about every other countries are now looked upon with suspicion by the authorities and public and there's been an increase of "Race Hate" attacks upon them. ie: The Religious element is now in place too.

The "War" started with the invasion of Afganistan (a 1500 mile pipeline going through the country was the 1st thing agreed after the fall of the Taliban, something they'd refused to do, signing this agreement took priority over "democratic Governance"), although some look at Iraq as the start of the conflict. The Iraq invasion was sparked, in part, by their decision to sell Oil in Euro's.. damaging the Economic Interests of the US. (Notice again, selling Iraq's Oil in Dollars again took priority over rebuilding that Nation or Introducing Democracy).

Iran could well be next, as its the 2nd Largest OPEC producer.

If they decide to withhold Oil in retaliation if Israel attacks Syria on a large scale, continue with their Uranium Enrichment program, or decide to sell Oil in Euro's.. then the US will invade, its as simple as that.

The Uranium Enrichment Program excuse is ironic, as Iran is a member of the non-proliferation treaty and allows inspections of its Nuclear Facilities... something that Israel isnt and doesnt. This fact wont be missed by the Fundamentalists...



However an argument could also point out that the entire "Cold War" was actually fought between the US and USSR through proxy countries, and that there is a war of some sort being fought every day somewhere.....

......so I'm assuming you are only referring to direct Military Action on a large scale by "developed" countries..

[GepperRankins]

a world war when the internets exist would just be wierd

[MediaSlayer]

......so I'm assuming you are only referring to direct Military Action on a large scale by "developed" countries..

This should clear things up a bit-

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's Hizbollah, which claims links to the Lebanese group of the same name, said on Tuesday it stood ready to attack Israeli and U.S. interests worldwide.

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"We have 2,000 volunteers who have registered since last year," said Iranian Hizbollah's spokesman Mojtaba Bigdeli, speaking by telephone from the central seminary city of Qom.

"They have been trained and they can become fully armed. We are ready to dispatch them to every corner of the world to jeopardise Israel and America's interests. We are only waiting for the Supreme Leader's green light to take action. If America wants to ignite World War Three ... we welcome it," he said.

[DanB]

kewl.

[j2k4]

......so I'm assuming you are only referring to direct Military Action on a large scale by "developed" countries..

This should clear things up a bit-

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's Hizbollah, which claims links to the Lebanese group of the same name, said on Tuesday it stood ready to attack Israeli and U.S. interests worldwide.

ADVERTISEMENT

"We have 2,000 volunteers who have registered since last year," said Iranian Hizbollah's spokesman Mojtaba Bigdeli, speaking by telephone from the central seminary city of Qom.

"They have been trained and they can become fully armed. We are ready to dispatch them to every corner of the world to jeopardise Israel and America's interests. We are only waiting for the Supreme Leader's green light to take action. If America wants to ignite World War Three ... we welcome it," he said.

Well, now.

Iran had previously denied any involvement.

The case cannot be made that the Iranian government is a pawn to Hezbollah as Lebanen's is.

The veil is lifted...

[lynx]

This should clear things up a bit-

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's Hizbollah, which claims links to the Lebanese group of the same name, said on Tuesday it stood ready to attack Israeli and U.S. interests worldwide.

ADVERTISEMENT

"We have 2,000 volunteers who have registered since last year," said Iranian Hizbollah's spokesman Mojtaba Bigdeli, speaking by telephone from the central seminary city of Qom.

"They have been trained and they can become fully armed. We are ready to dispatch them to every corner of the world to jeopardise Israel and America's interests. We are only waiting for the Supreme Leader's green light to take action. If America wants to ignite World War Three ... we welcome it," he said.

Well, now.

Iran had previously denied any involvement.

The case cannot be made that the Iranian government is a pawn to Hezbollah as Lebanen's is.

The veil is lifted...Is there any point in highlighting the fact that it was Iran's Hezzbollah which acknowledged the link (not that there has ever been any doubt), not the Iranian government.

Did you miss that?

[j2k4]

Well, now.

Iran had previously denied any involvement.

The case cannot be made that the Iranian government is a pawn to Hezbollah as Lebanen's is.

The veil is lifted...

Is there any point in highlighting the fact that it was Iran's Hezzbollah which acknowledged the link (not that there has ever been any doubt), not the Iranian government.

Did you miss that?

Is there any point highlighting the fact Hezbollah has cowed the Lebanese government, but the same cannot be said to be true of the Irani government, which does not disavow Iranian Hezbollah commentary, and, in fact, agrees with it, however tacitly?

Or did you miss that?

[Rat Faced]

Please people,

no country is squeaky clean here..

or do i have to remind everyone of the Bay of Pigs, Guatamala, Argentina, Cambodia etc (for USA lot).. Iraq, India, Burma etc (for UK lot).. Continent of Africa etc (most of mainland Europe lot)..

There is no proof re: Iran being responsible.

and people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones...

Fact.

[j2k4]

Please people,

no country is squeaky clean here..

or do i have to remind everyone of the Bay of Pigs, Guatamala, Argentina, Cambodia etc (for USA lot).. Iraq, India, Burma etc (for UK lot).. Continent of Africa etc (most of mainland Europe lot)..

There is no proof re: Iran being responsible.

and people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones...

Fact.

Indeed, they should not even discuss such things. :whistling

I wish I could suss your point, Rat, but I cannot.

Insofar as this thread was a hair's breadth from a shit-storm, I'll bow out, if that's okay.

[Rat Faced]

The point was that in most cases people "knew", but the countries denied it.

We can speculate all we want, as we did at the time re: Iraq Invasion.

Some thought there were weapons, some didnt (and thought so strongly on both sides of that fence I recall).. we didnt know until after the fact.


The Topic is regarding the conditions for a Major War.

That means lots of nations/cultures acting and reacting in manners that may bring about a major conflict... you cannot blame one or two specifics here, its a culmanation of lots of stuff... including our own past baggage.

Remember, to most of us it is the past and easily forgotten.. but we were far removed from the actual results on the ground. In these places people got killed that had friends and family that may then hate the country(ies) responsible on emotional grounds.... a lot less predictable than economical/logical grounds. These people have children, guess who teaches them during their formative years?

If you bring Hiz'bollah and Iran into the equation, then you must also bring the history of both in too..

Why does Iran hate the USA? Think back a little... Then think about whats happening at present, which makes it hard to put history behind it.

Why was Hiz'bollah (Shi'ite), who have little in common with Hamas (Sunni), formed? Again, think back a little...

Just across the way in Iraq, these two factions are blowing the crap out of each other..... they did in Lebanon in the past, and they still do when they come across each other now.... so it isnt an alliance, which is what some Israeli's and Americans are saying it is.

Then look also at the fact that the Lebanese Army has now been mobilised, because Israel looks like it will be a invading by land... they did squat except complain and die during the air assault, however the Lebanese Constitution means they must now do what they didnt want to do.. fight Israel to defend their country.

ie: An active state of War will exist between Lebanon and Israel (I think they are still formally at war anyway)... and this was encouraged by the USA and UK.

What message is that sending out to every other muslim country in the world?

How many young Muslims are going to be pissed off enough to be radicalized?

How is all this affecting the way many Cultures/Countries en-mass Act and React with each other...

I think that reducing this thread to a specific conflict and apportioning blame is actually reducing the value of the thread...

[Busyman™]

It seems Lebanon didn't do enough to stop Hezbollah from slamming rockets into Israel.

What was Israel supposed to do?

If rockets from the USA came raining down on China, would would China do?

Maybe muslims should blame some of their own instead of becoming radicalized sheep.

[j2k4]

It seems Lebanon didn't do enough to stop Hezbollah from slamming rockets into Israel.

What was Israel supposed to do?

If rockets from the USA came raining down on China, would would China do?

Maybe muslims should blame some of their own instead of becoming radicalized sheep.

I will re-enter the thread only to record a short but forceful huzzah! in support of the sentiment elucidated here.

[Rat Faced]

Strange...

Iraq has been liberated how long?

Yet the USA/UK say it cannot yet secure itself from its own elements, despite huge resources from the Coalition training their Armed Forces and Police.

Lebanon has been free a much shorter time from Syria, and has had didly squat in terms of help to train and supply an Army.... and yet the same countries think that they should be able to sort out Hezbollah, a much more organised and better armed organisation than the Iraqi insurgents..


The word Hypocracy springs to mind..

[Busyman™]

Strange...

Iraq has been liberated how long?

Yet the USA/UK say it cannot yet secure itself from its own elements, despite huge resources from the Coalition training their Armed Forces and Police.

Lebanon has been free a much shorter time from Syria, and has had didly squat in terms of help to train and supply an Army.... and yet the same countries think that they should be able to sort out Hezbollah, a much more organised and better armed organisation than the Iraqi insurgents..


The word Hypocracy springs to mind..
Uhh it's not that.

1. Rockets come from Lebanon.

2. Lebanon could be in cahoots with Hezbollah or not however...

3. What is Israel supposed to do, sit back and wait for more rockets to come?
If Lebanon cannot sort it then Israel has to. It's not really a choice.
tralalalalalala and his family are just supposed to sit and wait for a rocket to hit their home. I think not.

[lynx]

Strange...

Iraq has been liberated how long?

Yet the USA/UK say it cannot yet secure itself from its own elements, despite huge resources from the Coalition training their Armed Forces and Police.

Lebanon has been free a much shorter time from Syria, and has had didly squat in terms of help to train and supply an Army.... and yet the same countries think that they should be able to sort out Hezbollah, a much more organised and better armed organisation than the Iraqi insurgents..


The word Hypocracy springs to mind..
Uhh it's not that.

1. Rockets come from Lebanon.

2. Lebanon could be in cahoots with Hezbollah or not however...

3. What is Israel supposed to do, sit back and wait for more rockets to come?
If Lebanon cannot sort it then Israel has to. It's not really a choice.
tralalalalalala and his family are just supposed to sit and wait for a rocket to hit their home. I think not.You neglect to observe that Israel is dismantling the infrastructure of Lebanon rather than just attacking the rocket positions, affecting any opportunity that the Lebanese government may have in the future of getting control of the whole country.

The intention is to provoke Syria and Iran, and if they respond you don't need a crystal ball to figure what would happen next.

[Busyman™]

Uhh it's not that.

1. Rockets come from Lebanon.

2. Lebanon could be in cahoots with Hezbollah or not however...

3. What is Israel supposed to do, sit back and wait for more rockets to come?
If Lebanon cannot sort it then Israel has to. It's not really a choice.
tralalalalalala and his family are just supposed to sit and wait for a rocket to hit their home. I think not.You neglect to observe that Israel is dismantling the infrastructure of Lebanon rather than just attacking the rocket positions, affecting any opportunity that the Lebanese government may have in the future of getting control of the whole country.

The intention is to provoke Syria and Iran, and if they respond you don't need a crystal ball to figure what would happen next.
Oh right they are defending themselves the wrong way.

"Just attack the rocket positions and be on our way. That'll solve everything."

There will just be new rocket positions.:ermm:

You also neglect the possibility of #2.

[Rat Faced]

I dont think anyone has said that Israel shouldnt defend itself..

However, as you pointed out... they are using Rockets.

The thing about Rockets is that the firing location can be found within seconds of the launch due to Ballistic Radar.

They are close to the Israeli Border... not in an International Airport, nor Tripoli, nor the Field Hospitals etc etc... in fact, apart from their HQ in Beirute, there are few Shi'ite Muslims more than 30-50 miles from the Israeli Border, never mind Hezbollah... That entire ethinic grouping is concentrated in the South.

Then there is the fact they have destroyed the infrastrucure heading North, including all Gas Stations and Services, Bridges etc... THEN told the population to move north... along the Highways they're been bombing.

Lets get this into perspective.. 10 times as many innocent Lebonese as Israeli's killed.. AND 500,000 displaced and a whole countrie's infrastructure totalled. A country, the Government of which condemned the attacks when they started... and the population of which now is on Hezbollahs side due to the Israeli actions.

A country that the USA were routing for just a couple of weeks ago too...

[Busyman™]

I dont think anyone has said that Israel shouldnt defend itself..

However, as you pointed out... they are using Rockets.

The thing about Rockets is that the firing location can be found within seconds of the launch due to Ballistic Radar.

They are close to the Israeli Border... not in an International Airport, nor Tripoli, nor the Field Hospitals etc etc... in fact, apart from their HQ in Beirute, there are few Shi'ite Muslims more than 30-50 miles from the Israeli Border, never mind Hezbollah... That entire ethinic grouping is concentrated in the South.

Then there is the fact they have destroyed the infrastrucure heading North, including all Gas Stations and Services, Bridges etc... THEN told the population to move north... along the Highways they're been bombing.

Lets get this into perspective.. 10 times as many innocent Lebonese as Israeli's killed.. AND 500,000 displaced and a whole countrie's infrastructure totalled. A country, the Government of which condemned the attacks when they started... and the population of which now is on Hezbollahs side due to the Israeli actions.

A country that the USA were routing for just a couple of weeks ago too...
You do know rocket positions change, right?

You do know that many governments sanction while condemning attacks, right?

It's quite possible the Lebanese government knows where the rocket positions are then too, right?

So you are saying that maybe Israel should tone down their innocent casualty rate to match their own?

I do not advocate the overkill in the least. However, at some point, muslims, instead of radicalizing, need to do something radical like checking their own.
All I hear is crap like "I don't feel we should apologize for the actions of others" while at the same time......"I will now join in the fight for my muslim brothers against persecution."

:ermm:

Maybe all the muslims of any strength over there are bad and/or weak-minded. Loike 75-25 loike.

[lynx]

Let's see, there were 8 Canadians killed by Israel.

So how come I haven't heard the same people who are saying Israel's tactics are right calling on Canada to launch an attack on Israel and kill about 80 Israelis?

After all, that can't be an escalation, it's just following the same principles. Or do principles only work one way?

[Rat Faced]

Lebenon is a Country of many ethnic groupings..

Hezbollah are Shi'ite muslims...which is why they are supported by Iran generally... that whole ethnic grouping makes up about 14% of the population.

So please explain why they are also bombing the crap out of the Christians?

Or the Muslim factions that, until now, didnt support Hezbollah? In fact they were, until fairly recently, fighting them.

Or the 200,000 Kurds? Kurds... you remember, they are the USA's allies?

Hezbollah, remember supports and is supported by Syria.... and the rest of the population just recently finally managed to kick Syria out.

They were not even close to representing the majority of Lebonese public opinion until Israel started the wholescale slaughter.


As I said earlier, a very factionalised and diverse country is now coming together properly... in the face of a common enemy that attacked them.

[Busyman™]

Lebenon is a Country of many ethnic groupings..

Hezbollah are Shi'ite muslims...which is why they are supported by Iran generally... that whole ethnic grouping makes up about 14% of the population.

So please explain why they are also bombing the crap out of the Christians?

Or the Muslim factions that, until now, didnt support Hezbollah? In fact they were, until fairly recently, fighting them.

Or the 200,000 Kurds? Kurds... you remember, they are the USA's allies?

Hezbollah, remember supports and is supported by Syria.... and the rest of the population just recently finally managed to kick Syria out.

They were not even close to representing the majority of Lebonese public opinion until Israel started the wholescale slaughter.


As I said earlier, a very factionalised and diverse country is now coming together properly... in the face of a common enemy that attacked them.
How then isn't Lebanon taking care Hezbollah in their own country?

Hezbollah seems to be such a minority there.

[Busyman™]

Let's see, there were 8 Canadians killed by Israel.

So how come I haven't heard the same people who are saying Israel's tactics are right calling on Canada to launch an attack on Israel and kill about 80 Israelis?

After all, that can't be an escalation, it's just following the same principles. Or do principles only work one way?
Who said Israel's tactics were right?

I'm saying simply allowing rockets to reain down on Israel ad nauseam doesn't cut it and a simple decree from Lebanon saying "we don't like it" doesn't cut it either.

http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1392016&postcount=18

http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1392697&postcount=35

http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1392965&postcount=37

[lynx]

Let's see, there were 8 Canadians killed by Israel.

So how come I haven't heard the same people who are saying Israel's tactics are right calling on Canada to launch an attack on Israel and kill about 80 Israelis?

After all, that can't be an escalation, it's just following the same principles. Or do principles only work one way?
Who said Israel's tactics were right?

I'm saying simply allowing rockets to reain down on Israel ad nauseam doesn't cut it and a simple decree from Lebanon saying "we don't like it" doesn't cut it either.

http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1392016&postcount=18

http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1392697&postcount=35

http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1392965&postcount=37
I'm simply pointing out that your justification of the large scale bombing of Lebanon is unreasonable.

If that were correct, then during the IRA bombing campaign abainst England, we would have been justified in flattening Dublin, after all they'd had a stable government for a long time. Somehow I don't think you would have been backing us in those circumstances. :dry:

[Rat Faced]

Lebenon is a Country of many ethnic groupings..

Hezbollah are Shi'ite muslims...which is why they are supported by Iran generally... that whole ethnic grouping makes up about 14% of the population.

So please explain why they are also bombing the crap out of the Christians?

Or the Muslim factions that, until now, didnt support Hezbollah? In fact they were, until fairly recently, fighting them.

Or the 200,000 Kurds? Kurds... you remember, they are the USA's allies?

Hezbollah, remember supports and is supported by Syria.... and the rest of the population just recently finally managed to kick Syria out.

They were not even close to representing the majority of Lebonese public opinion until Israel started the wholescale slaughter.


As I said earlier, a very factionalised and diverse country is now coming together properly... in the face of a common enemy that attacked them.
How then isn't Lebanon taking care Hezbollah in their own country?

Hezbollah seems to be such a minority there.

As said earlier, they have only just got rid of Syria and dont have a fully trained or equiped professional Army yet.

So... how are they supposed to get rid of Hezbollah?

This organisation may only be a militia, but it is better funded, equiped and trained than Lebanons Army is atm..

Further, the Lebonese Armies size is controlled through a strict ratio of personnel from the different factions and religions.. ie: If the there are few shi'ites joining up then with all of the will in the world, the Army cant legally increase in size to "fill the gap". Its the smallest and most ill equiped Army in the entire Middle East.

Implying that by Bombing Lebanon they are just bombing Muslims that are being radicalized was totally incorrect tho... there are more Christians in Lebanon than there are Shi'ite's (Hezbollah's faction).

What has occured is that they now have an entire country that hates their guts (rather than the dislike that was there before)... instead of 14% of the population of that country.

Instead of support for Hezbollahs campaign coming from only Shi'ite countries such as Iran... they will now have to contend with support going to all the Lebanese factions, from many more countries.

This includes Orthodox Christian Countries/Organisations... not just Islamic ones.

The Christians have often received their support through Germany, Belgium and France to name a few.. ie: European and "Christian" Orgainisations may support them (even if unofficially)

The Sunni factions may get their support from the likes of Libya and Iraq, and also from "mainstream" Islamic countries as the Sunni is a mainstream secular faction (ie: Sunni's don't threaten the status quo of Islamic Countries as they are not Fundamentalist)

The Druze may get support from Russia/China etc where they have always had close ties.


So, you see... its possibly a much greater escalation than it looks like on the surface.

Israel is taking a big risk (and they know it), and frankly (in my opinion) they deserve it if it all goes tits up for them.

[Busyman™]

Who said Israel's tactics were right?

I'm saying simply allowing rockets to reain down on Israel ad nauseam doesn't cut it and a simple decree from Lebanon saying "we don't like it" doesn't cut it either.

http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1392016&postcount=18

http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1392697&postcount=35

http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1392965&postcount=37
I'm simply pointing out that your justification of the large scale bombing of Lebanon is unreasonable.
...at the same time they can't just sit back and do diddly....

[Rat Faced]

Busyman, lets put it this way...

The fans of most Soccer Teams in the UK premiership have a better chance at getting rid of Hezbollah than the Lebonese Government.

Hell... some of New Yorks street gangs are larger and better equiped than this Army.

[Smith]

I was at my friends cottage all weekend. His girlfriend called my phone at 2AM to inform us that a party behind her house had resulted in 12 gunshots being fired. This is quite scarry considering the school I go to is right across the street, and I walk down one street over from where it happened to go get lunch every day.

And yes..my friends girlfriend is a whiny bitch, who calls us at 2AM to inform us about something that does not affect us..when we are about 2 hours away from her house.

[Busyman]

Let's see, there were 8 Canadians killed by Israel.

So how come I haven't heard the same people who are saying Israel's tactics are right calling on Canada to launch an attack on Israel and kill about 80 Israelis?

After all, that can't be an escalation, it's just following the same principles. Or do principles only work one way?
Oh and to quote you again....

Make it that Israel attacked Canada and then I'd somewhat see your point.

Let's try to do an apples-to-apples comparison.

[Busyman]

I was at my friends cottage all weekend. His girlfriend called my phone at 2AM to inform us that a party behind her house had resulted in 12 gunshots being fired. This is quite scarry considering the school I go to is right across the street, and I walk down one street over from where it happened to go get lunch every day.

And yes..my friends girlfriend is a whiny bitch, who calls us at 2AM to inform us about something that does not affect us..when we are about 2 hours away from her house.
The fook?:blink:

[Rat Faced]

Let's see, there were 8 Canadians killed by Israel.

So how come I haven't heard the same people who are saying Israel's tactics are right calling on Canada to launch an attack on Israel and kill about 80 Israelis?

After all, that can't be an escalation, it's just following the same principles. Or do principles only work one way?
Oh and to quote you again....

Make it that Israel attacked Canada and then I'd somewhat see your point.

Let's try to do an apples-to-apples comparison.

Apples for Apples you said...

Lebanon didn't attack Israel either.


Israeli's were killed due to an attack based in Lebonese Territory... they attack Lebonon.

Canadians have been killed due to an attack based in Israeli Territory.... the difference?

In both cases, the Government and majority of the people in the base country were not trying to kill those that were killed.

At least the Canadians can hit the whole of Israel and say they are hitting the people that support the aggressor.

[Busyman]

Oh and to quote you again....

Make it that Israel attacked Canada and then I'd somewhat see your point.

Let's try to do an apples-to-apples comparison.

Apples for Apples you said...

Lebanon didn't attack Israel either.
Where'd the rockets come from?

[Rat Faced]

Where did the Jets that killed the Canadians come from?


ALTERNATIVE ANSWER:

Syria.. where did the missiles that killed the Canadians come from?

Maybe thats the answer.. Israel attack Syria and Canada attack the USA.. :rolleyes:

[Busyman]

Where did the Jets that killed the Canadians come from?


ALTERNATIVE ANSWER:

Syria.. where did the missiles that killed the Canadians come from?

Maybe thats the answer.. Israel attack Syria and Canada attack the USA.. :rolleyes:
So where did the rockets come from again?

"Answer the question, Clarice."

[Rat Faced]

Then of course, there is the wider ramifications of this policy, that the USA will be directly involved in....


WASHINGTON, DC, United States (UPI) -- That which Americans should fear has come upon them: U.S. troops in Iraq killed 15 Shiite militiamen Saturday.

According to first reports, the fighting occurred in the town of Musayyib, 40 miles south of Baghdad. The exchange was an intense one. It lasted three hours and dozens more people were injured.

The clash was not a random one. It was part of a systematic drive U.S. forces had been ordered to carry out against the Mahdi Army of anti-American firebrand Moqtada al-Sadr.

This clash was the most serious since the brief and potentially very dangeorus rising by Sadr`s militia against U.S. forces in April 2004. It came after popular Shiite opinion across Iraq has been inflamed against the United States by the continuing failure of U.S. forces to protect Shiite communities in the country from the continuing onslaught of Sunni insurgents. Also, it comes as Israel`s attacks on the Shiite militias of southern Lebanon are escalating towards a full-scale land invasion of Hezbollah-controlled territory.

The danger is therefore more imminent than ever that the U.S. drive against Sadr`s forces could trigger a more widespread rising of Shiite militias in Baghdad and across southern Iraq against U.S. forces. The already chaotic situation in Iraq would then become indescribable.

We make this prediction in these columns the same way we confidently -- and grimly -- predicted on May 1, 2003, that the Sunni population of Iraq would be enraged by the killing of 15 of their number in clashes with U.S. troops in the city of Fallujah, and that this would lead to a years-long widespread Sunni insurgency against U.S. forces in their country.

On that day -- the same day President George W. Bush confidently but erroneously declared 'Mission Accomplished ' in Iraq from the deck of the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln -- UPI Analysis predicted: 'The killing of 15 anti-American demonstrators by U.S. troops in the Iraqi city of Fallujah this week, followed by the reported killing of at least two more Wednesday, is a dire omen for those who imagined Iraq could be quietly but firmly guided on the paths of stable, pro-American democracy in the next few months, or even years.

'It is, rather, the kind of event that Thomas Jefferson called `a fire-bell in the night` -- the harbinger of infinitely worse conflict and travails to come.'

We noted then in UPI Analysis, 'In its scale and likely repercussions, the Fallujah Massacre -- as it will soon clearly be known -- appears remarkably similar to the killing of 13 Northern Irish Catholics by the British army during fierce demonstrations in the city of Londonderry -- a provincial center comparable to Fallujah -- on what became known as `Bloody Sunday` on Jan. 30, 1972.

'That event, more than anything else, proved a windfall for the rapidly mobilizing paramilitary Provisional Irish Republican Army, at the time known popularly as the 'Provos.' And over the next few years, it launched a campaign of urban terror and bomb massacres that in its calculated efforts to kill and maim civilians was without parallel in Europe during the 46 years from the end of World War II to the beginning of the wars in the former Yugoslavia in 1991.

'It will be surprising if we do not see the same thing in Iraq in the coming months, and possibly even in the next few weeks.

'In fact, what happened in Fallujah and what is now likely to happen throughout Iraq is no more or less than a reversion to the traditional patterns of the 40 years of history that the Iraqi people previously spent under the control -- first direct then indirect -- of a major Western power determined to `educate` them into Western practices of democracy.'

Sure enough, Fallujah became one of the most ferocious centers of the Sunni insurgency in Iraq. It was repeatedly fought over by U.S. forces and militias in bitter, house-to-house battles reminiscent of Stalingrad, Budapest and Berlin in World War II.

And in the three years and nearly three months since Bush pronounced his famous 'Mission Accomplished' comment, more than 2,200 American soldiers have been killed serving in Iraq, more than seven times the number who had died when that statement was made.

Now, however, the destructive potential of a widespread Shiite uprising in Iraq is vastly worse than the Sunni threat was three-and-a-quarter years ago.

The Shiite population of Iraq is more than three times that of the Sunni community. It is greater by 10 million people. The Shiites control all of southern Iraq, including the U.S. Army`s crucial land supply route from Kuwait to Baghdad.

The Sunni militias in May 2003 needed a period of organization and recruiting before they could present a serious widespread threat to U.S. forces. As we have monitored in our companion 'UPI Iraq Benchmarks' column, this escalation gradually occurred over the following two-and-a-half years.

But the Shiite militias across Iraq are already organized and networked together. They have far more support, certainly financial and probably in terms of arms supply, than the Sunni insurgents ever did and there are potentially far more of them. Also, they enjoy potential support and, at the very least, protection and toleration, from the Shiite-controlled new Iraqi army and police force that U.S. policymakers have built up at a frantic speed to fight the Sunni insurgents. But the price of that rapid build-up was the failure to establish any effective American controls over the new forces that could easily turn against their American creators.

Bush administration and Pentagon policymakers never dreamed the Sunni insurgency would get as bad as it did. A widespread Shiite militia rising against U.S. forces will be infinitely more dangerous. But no one in Washington appears to realize that either.

Source (http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1183550.php/Eye_on_Iraq_The_Shiite_bloody_Saturday)

[Busyman]

Wow, RF avoiding simple questions.

Whoda thunk it? :dabs:

[Rat Faced]

Where did the Jets that killed the Canadians come from?


ALTERNATIVE ANSWER:

Syria.. where did the missiles that killed the Canadians come from?

Maybe thats the answer.. Israel attack Syria and Canada attack the USA.. :rolleyes:
So where did the rockets come from again?

"Answer the question, Clarice."

They came from Lebanon Territory.

The Jets came from Israeli Territory.

Apples for Apples you said... Canada has as much right to attack Israel.

The Lebanon Government did not say "Go kill Israeli's" to Hez'bollah.

The Israeli Government did not say "Go kill Canadians" to its Pilots.


Either both countries should be bombed to fuck, or neither... your call.

Personally, I dont think either should be as neither country is responsible.

[Busyman™]

So where did the rockets come from again?

"Answer the question, Clarice."

They came from Lebanon Territory.

The Jets came from Israeli Territory.

Apples for Apples you said... Canada has as much right to attack Israel.

The Lebanon Government did not say "Go kill Israeli's" to Hez'bollah.

The Israeli Government did not say "Go kill Canadians" to its Pilots.


Either both countries should be bombed to fuck, or neither... your call.

Personally, I dont think either should be as neither country is responsible.
That's not apples to apples.

One is who the other is where. :crazy:

Oh and to go along with your apples to apples comparison.....

Unless Israel can manage to hit only the rocket positions regardless if they've moved or not, they should do fuck all and take rockets up the ass.

There, it's all sorted.

Again if the Lebs can't sort folks using their backyard to toss bombs then Israel will.

Also you do not know if folks in the Leb gubment are saying go kill Israeli or not. You make assumptions based on a press release and decree.

I guarantee that if "some group" in France started fucking up bratland and it continued....and continued....and continued.....and France did fuck all, bratland would be knocking on France's door.

[Barbarossa]

I guarantee that if "some group" in France started fucking up bratland and it continued....and continued....and continued.....and France did fuck all, bratland would be knocking on France's door.

Like French Farmers for example :whistling




But that's another story... :shutup:

[Rat Faced]

I guarantee that if "some group" in France started fucking up bratland and it continued....and continued....and continued.....and France did fuck all, bratland would be knocking on France's door.

You forget certain groups in Ireland and USA did start fucking "Bratland" again and again and again.. and we didnt go bombing the fuck out of either country.

Because it was "some Groups".. not the Governments or populations at large.

You also forget that Hezbollah didnt start the throwing of rockets, it was reciprocal... they kidnapped 2 soldiers, and killed a few more in the firefight.

As far as the Bombs and Rockets are concerned, Israel started that shit.


July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with a naval blockade and by bombing hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including Beirut's airport and Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. Hezbollah responds with rocket attacks targeting northern Israeli cities. Fighting leaves dozens of Lebanese civilians dead and coincides with a two-week-old Israeli military campaign in Gaza in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants

So, kidnapping..

Didn't the Italian courts issue arrest warrents for some CIA operatives that kidnapped someone from Italy recently? Happening a lot at the moment is rendition...

You're basically saying the correct response for the Italians to that would been to Blockade New York, Bomb JFK and a couple of hundred other US targets.... at least the CIA is responsible to the US Government afterall, unlike Hezbollah to the Lebonese Government.

[FreeDoom]

This "Middle East war" will end when Hezbollah frees the soldiers, Israel stays out of Lebanon and Palestine becomes a soberan country recognized by all.
Also the terrorist groups must end.

I think all these conditions are very difficult to accomplish so...

[Busyman]

You forget certain groups in Ireland and USA did start fucking "Bratland" again and again and again.. and we didnt go bombing the fuck out of either country.

Because it was "some Groups".. not the Governments or populations at large.

You also forget that Hezbollah didnt start the throwing of rockets, it was reciprocal... they kidnapped 2 soldiers, and killed a few more in the firefight.

As far as the Bombs and Rockets are concerned, Israel started that shit.


July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with a naval blockade and by bombing hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including Beirut's airport and Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. Hezbollah responds with rocket attacks targeting northern Israeli cities. Fighting leaves dozens of Lebanese civilians dead and coincides with a two-week-old Israeli military campaign in Gaza in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants

So, kidnapping..

Didn't the Italian courts issue arrest warrents for some CIA operatives that kidnapped someone from Italy recently? Happening a lot at the moment is rendition...

You're basically saying the correct response for the Italians to that would been to Blockade New York, Bomb JFK and a couple of hundred other US targets.... at least the CIA is responsible to the US Government afterall, unlike Hezbollah to the Lebonese Government.
The Hezbollah attack came from the territory of a sovereign country which Lebanon is responsible for. Hezbollah has strongholds there ffs.:ermm:

A Lebanese group initiated the attacks. Period. They kidnapped and killed soldiers and I gather they retreated back to Lebanon.

You'll hear no argument regarding the arrest warrants. However, who was abducted? I'm ignorant on that issue. I mean will Italy go to war over a kidnapped Egyptian bank clerk. Probably not.

[lynx]

I mean will Italy go to war over a kidnapped Egyptian bank clerk. Probably not.Of course not, and neither should Israel go to war over the kidnapping of a couple of it's soldiers.

Nor would they have done, if it wasn't for one thing - the agreement keeping the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon runs out next Monday, and the Israeli's are desparate that someone else should pay for patrolling its northern border.

BTW, while you are so keen on spreading the blame for Israel's appalling conduct, why not cast it on the UN for not controlling Hezzbollah. Not that you need bother, I think we know who will do that.

[Rat Faced]

Israel doesnt help itself, and frankly i dont think it wants to.

As long as they are getting "threatened" their whole economy is paid for by the USA... it pays them to keep the neighbours unhappy.

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.

The U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.

How come its OK for them to do anything, including flying their military aircraft over sovereign nations with impunity and treating the Palestinians as sub human?

I could understand it if they were even a good ally of the US... but ffs, they bomb your ships (USS Liberty), sell your secrets and ignore the Non proliferation treaty etc and nothing is said.. Any other country so much as looks at you the wrong way (or Israel) and they are in the Axis of Evil.

Is it really any wonder that the Islamic countries hate the US, Israel and UK at the moment?

Personally, so would I if i was in their position...

Yet the fact remains... individuals not under the control of the Lebanese Government hit a military target, and kidnapped Military Personell to exchange with them, and Israel responded by attacking an International Airport and Major City plus hundreds of other civilian targets.

Frankly, if they dont stop.. they will deserve everything that will be heading their way... and in the process garanteeing the US will keep giving them Billions of Dollars annually..

[sArA]

Can't help but agree with you there Rat....very poor state of affairs....I expect Blair will be licking Georgie's arse all the way down the line too. :dry:

[lynx]

Amazing what the Colgate 360 (http://www.colgate.com/app/Colgate360/US/Product.cvsp) can do.

[Busyman™]

Israel doesnt help itself, and frankly i dont think it wants to.

As long as they are getting "threatened" their whole economy is paid for by the USA... it pays them to keep the neighbours unhappy.

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.

The U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.

How come its OK for them to do anything, including flying their military aircraft over sovereign nations with impunity and treating the Palestinians as sub human?

I could understand it if they were even a good ally of the US... but ffs, they bomb your ships (USS Liberty), sell your secrets and ignore the Non proliferation treaty etc and nothing is said.. Any other country so much as looks at you the wrong way (or Israel) and they are in the Axis of Evil.

Is it really any wonder that the Islamic countries hate the US, Israel and UK at the moment?

Personally, so would I if i was in their position...

Yet the fact remains... individuals not under the control of the Lebanese Government hit a military target, and kidnapped Military Personell to exchange with them, and Israel responded by attacking an International Airport and Major City plus hundreds of other civilian targets.

Frankly, if they dont stop.. they will deserve everything that will be heading their way... and in the process garanteeing the US will keep giving them Billions of Dollars annually..
We are in agreement, somewhat. I'd like for the US to be "that country across the water" and let the world go on about it's business.

However, to part of your post....what is Israel supposed to do? I don't why they bombed the Beirut airport unless it was being used a by Hezbollah (I doubt it). As I said before, I disagree with overkill.

Israel should not have sat on their ass either....like maybe the Lebanese government. Either the Lebs sort it or Israel will sort it.

I will say this....if Iran gets nuke capability, Israel will be "wiped off the map".

[Busyman™]

Hmmm C&P


BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) - A senior Hezbollah official said Tuesday the guerrillas did not expect Israel to react with an all-out offensive after the capture of two soldiers, the first acknowledgment by the group that it had miscalculated the consequences of the raid two weeks ago.

Mahmoud Komati, deputy chief of the Hezbollah's political arm, also told The Associated Press in an interview that the Shiite militant group will not lay down arms.

"The truth is - let me say this clearly - we didn't even expect (this) response ... that (Israel) would exploit this operation for this big war against us," said Komati.

He said Hezbollah had expected "the usual, limited response" from Israel after the two soldiers were seized by guerrillas on Israel's side of the border on July 12.

In the past, he said, Israeli responses to Hezbollah actions included sending commandos into Lebanon, seizing Hezbollah officials and briefly targeting specific strongholds in southern Lebanon.

Komati said his group had anticipated negotiations to swap the Israeli soldiers for three Lebanese held in Israeli jails, with Germany acting as a mediator as it has in past prisoner exchanges.

He said Hezbollah captured the Israeli soldiers from a military area, but charged that Israelis had taken Hezbollah leaders from their homes at night.

"The response is unjustified," Komati said. He claimed the Israeli offensive was planned in advance, and Israel was only "waiting for the right time" to carry it out.

Asked about reports that Hezbollah has been firing Iranian-made missiles on Israel, Komati said: "We don't deny nor confirm. We believe where the weapons come from is irrelevant."

Hezbollah leaders previously have denied that Iran was supplying them with weapons.

Komati said Hezbollah has weapons made in various countries, including the United States, France, China and Russia.

"Some of our fighters carry M16s. So you think we buy them from America?" he asked.

Komati said Hezbollah demanded an immediate end to Israeli attacks before agreeing to negotiate and rejected a plan proposed by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice during her visit to Beirut.

The plan calls for the deployment of international and Lebanese troops in southern Lebanon to prevent Hezbollah attacks on Israel before a cease-fire.

"No one can talk about politics while the fire rages, and killings occur," Komati said.

He was adamant about Hezbollah's refusal to disarm because of what he said was Israeli occupation of Lebanese land, the "threat of Israeli aggression" and the Lebanese held in Israeli jails.

[Rat Faced]

No one has said Israel shouldnt be allowed to defend themselves, they have been doing so for years.

You dont hear about the Commando attacks into Lebanon that successfully neutralised Hezbollah targets for years...

Why? Because it was proportionate and they were militia targets. Israel has had the upper hand for years on the matter, so much so that Hezbollah have been quiet for years...

The things you hear about, and cause condemnation are the disproportionate attacks and actions... such as those against the Palestinians and what is happening now in Lebanon.



There is no justification for bombing hundreds of Civilian Targets in Lebanon because of the kidnapping of a couple of soldiers.

There is no justification for throwing Tanks against kids throwing rocks.

There is every justification for them to seize members of Hezbollah and Hamas or to take out their weapon supplies.

[Busyman™]

No one has said Israel shouldnt be allowed to defend themselves, they have been doing so for years.

You dont hear about the Commando attacks into Lebanon that successfully neutralised Hezbollah targets for years...

Why? Because it was proportionate and they were militia targets. Israel has had the upper hand for years on the matter, so much so that Hezbollah have been quiet for years...

The things you hear about, and cause condemnation are the disproportionate attacks and actions... such as those against the Palestinians and what is happening now in Lebanon.


In the past, he said, Israeli responses to Hezbollah actions included sending commandos into Lebanon, seizing Hezbollah officials and briefly targeting specific strongholds in southern Lebanon.

Komati said his group had anticipated negotiations to swap the Israeli soldiers for three Lebanese held in Israeli jails, with Germany acting as a mediator as it has in past prisoner exchanges.


Why should this be allowed to go on....forever...?

There is no justification for bombing hundreds of Civilian Targets in Lebanon because of the kidnapping of a couple of soldiers.

There is no justification for throwing Tanks against kids throwing rocks.

There is every justification for them to seize members of Hezbollah and Hamas or to take out their weapon supplies.
I think Israel has said fuck it. Once again, I don't agree with the current overkill. However, I understand the incursion.

[Rat Faced]

But Its OK for Israel to kidnap and kill present and former members of Hezbollah for years?

No, despite what you think, Israel is largely at fault here. They brought it on themselves.


There are a LOT more Shi'ite Muslims than there are Sunni's... you thought we had problems with Al Queda and Hamas (Both Sunni)?

What the hell is going to happen now that they are all baying for US/Israeli blood?

Whats going to happen in Iraq, now that 2/3 of the population just changed sides? Hell, even the US installed Prime Minister of Iraq wont call Hezbollah a terrorist organisation..

...and neither, due to the definition insisted upon by the USA to protect all those that live in the US, will the UN add it to their list of terrorist organisations (They must have links to Al Queda or Hamas to qualify)


"Even before we know who will win this campaign, we can state with certainty that Israel has suffered a terrible propaganda defeat in Lebanon and the Arab world," wrote Maariv columnist Jacky Hugi. "From being our silent allies, the Lebanese have become the victims of our blind pounding."


BTW: Guess who originally armed the Shi'ites in Southern Lebanon, and then look up why they changed sides and formed Hez'bollah in the 1st place...

[Busyman™]

But Its OK for Israel to kidnap and kill present and former members of Hezbollah for years?

No, despite what you think, Israel is largely at fault here. They brought it on themselves.


There are a LOT more Shi'ite Muslims than there are Sunni's... you thought we had problems with Al Queda and Hamas (Both Sunni)?

What the hell is going to happen now that they are all baying for US/Israeli blood?

Whats going to happen in Iraq, now that 2/3 of the population just changed sides? Hell, even the US installed Prime Minister of Iraq wont call Hezbollah a terrorist organisation..

...and neither, due to the definition insisted upon by the USA to protect all those that live in the US, will the UN add it to their list of terrorist organisations (They must have links to Al Queda or Hamas to qualify)




BTW: Guess who originally armed the Shi'ites in Southern Lebanon, and then look up why they changed sides and formed Hez'bollah in the 1st place...
Mostly at fault? They both are, plain and simple. You can't harp on the latest and greatest and pick a side. In this case, Azrael responded, although with overkill, to Ebollah.

I wonder what would happen if everyone would put down their guns for a year.

[Rat Faced]

The world would be a much better and safer place..

[Busyman™]

The world would be a much better and safer place..

.....for a year....

[Filliz]

Not sure if it has ben adressed here already but apparantly the US doesn't want to sanction Israel for the bombing on a UN camp because it was an "accident":dry:

I wonder what the U.S reaction would've been if there were any US soldiers/civilians in that camp during the bombing.

[Rat Faced]

It would have been the same reaction.

They wouldn't have condemned Israel, it would have been an accident.

Blue on Blue accidents happen in conflict.

The cynic inside me says:

They were told for 6 hours that the nearest Hizbollah were 5km away and could they please stop shelling/bombing the UN Observation Post.

The ex-soldier inside me says:

Intell takes time to arrive at the front.

The signallers are very busy causing delays in passing messages on.

The people that make the decisions are busy and sometimes cant be found immediately.

Theres also a line of command that's followed which makes all of these delays happen in a number of places before the message finally arrives at the place thats actually doing the shelling/bombing.

You have to realise... a General can't actually contact an Artillery Battery directly (as an example). He tells his Arty Liason, who has to contact the Division, who has to contact the Battalion, who has to contact the Regiment, who has to contact the Battery, who has to contact the Command Post which is directing the Guns/Launchers..

There are even more layers when your talking about something coming from an outside source to a Government to a Joint Command (Air and Land)..


Of course, there is the fact that the OP was clearly marked as UN..

But then the Field Hospital they bombed marked with both the Red Cross and the Red Crescent... and Israel wasn't condemned then either...

[j2k4]

Not sure if it has ben adressed here already but apparantly the US doesn't want to sanction Israel for the bombing on a UN camp because it was an "accident":dry:

I wonder what the U.S reaction would've been if there were any US soldiers/civilians in that camp during the bombing.

Has this been discredited?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718/

Maybe they merely suffered the injustice of placement "collateral" to the location of the "legitimate" Hezbollah forces?

It is been noted the U.N. posts are clearly indicated by color and flag; do you think this fact was lost on Hezbollah at all, at all.

[lynx]

From the same article:

On July 25, that base came under fire from Israeli artillery and was struck by a precision-guided aerial bomb.We've been repeatedly shown that those things hit what they are aimed at.

[BawA]

well Israel has withdraw thier army from Maroon ol Ras and Bent El Jebel after heavy casualties, hope it stops here and everything goes to normal with Prisoner Exchange.

[j2k4]

From the same article:

On July 25, that base came under fire from Israeli artillery and was struck by a precision-guided aerial bomb.We've been repeatedly shown that those things hit what they are aimed at.

Exactly, to within an aiming tolerance of yards, which is sufficient to account for this misfortune.

That is why Hezbollah, et.al., employ this tactic of shared proximity, is it not?

[Busyman™]

From the same article:
We've been repeatedly shown that those things hit what they are aimed at.

Exactly, to within an aiming tolerance of yards, which is sufficient to account for this misfortune.

That is why Hezbollah, et.al., employ this tactic of shared proximity, is it not?

...and of course shit is said about Hezbollah.:dry:

[j2k4]

Exactly, to within an aiming tolerance of yards, which is sufficient to account for this misfortune.

That is why Hezbollah, et.al., employ this tactic of shared proximity, is it not?

...and of course shit is said about Hezbollah.:dry:

Not by me.

In my eyes, they are terrorists.

No shit.

[Busyman™]

...and of course shit is said about Hezbollah.:dry:

Not by me.

In my eyes, they are terrorists.

No shit.

True dat. Notice all the ire in this thread goes toward Azrael and not Ebola.

I wonder why?:ermm:

[j2k4]

Notice all the ire in this thread goes toward Azrael and not Ebola.

I wonder why?:ermm:

No you don't.

You don't do "coy" well at all. ;)

[Busyman™]

Notice all the ire in this thread goes toward Azrael and not Ebola.

I wonder why?:ermm:

No you don't.

You don't do "coy" well at all. ;)

True dat. I'm a little more direct with with a little less subtlety.

[j2k4]

No you don't.

You don't do "coy" well at all. ;)

True dat. I'm a little more direct with with a little less subtlety.

A little less than what?

[Busyman™]

True dat. I'm a little more direct with with a little less subtlety.

A little less than what?

Ok my bad, no subtlety.:mellow:

[MediaSlayer]

Israel halts air attacks in south Lebanon By KATHERINE SHRADER and KATHY GANNON, Associated Press Writers
26 minutes ago



JERUSALEM - Israel suspended air attacks on south Lebanon for 48 hours starting early Monday in the face of widespread outrage over an airstrike on a house that killed 56 Lebanese, almost all of them women and children.

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The announcement — made by a State Department spokesman with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in Jerusalem — appeared to reflect American pressure on Israel to make some concession after the strike.

In addition to suspending air attacks, Israel will also allow the opening of corridors for Lebanese civilians who want to leave south Lebanon for the north and would maintain land, sea and air corridors for humanitarian assistance, officials said.

Israeli officials confirmed Prime Minister Ehud Olmert agreed to an immediate 48-hour halt in the airstrikes beginning at 2 a.m. Monday while the military concludes its inquiry into the attack on the south Lebanese village of Qana. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to reporters.

Israeli warplanes struck suspected guerrilla positions in eastern Lebanon near the border with Syria just before the suspension took effect, security officials said. It was not known what was hit in the area, where radical Syrian-backed Palestinian factions have bases.

The officials left open the possibility that Israel might hit targets to stop imminent attacks, and that the suspension could last less than 48 hours if the military completes its inquiry before then.

Lebanon said the Israeli suspension was inadequate.

"There is no cease-fire and there is no cessation of hostilities," Lebanese special envoy Nouhad Mahoud told reporters at the United Nations late Sunday. "We are looking for something much more than that."

Hezbollah did not announce any reciprocal gestures and there were no reports of rocket attacks on Israel overnight.

The bloodshed in Lebanon prompted Rice to cut short her Mideast mission and intensified world demands on Washington to back an immediate end to the fighting.

In Jerusalem, Rice called the Qana bombing "awful" and said she will push for a cease-fire and a "lasting settlement" in the conflict through a U.N. Security Council resolution this week. It appeared to be her first real call for a quick end to the bloodshed.

"I am convinced that only by achieving both will the Lebanese people be able to control their country and their future, and the people of Israel finally be able to live free of attack from terrorist groups in Lebanon," Rice told reporters Monday before departing for Washington.

A three-story house on the outskirts of Qana was leveled when a missile crashed into it at 1 a.m. Red Cross officials said 56 were killed and police said 34 children and 12 adult women were among the dead. It was worst single strike since Israel's campaign in Lebanon began on July 12 when Hezbollah militants crossed the border into Israel and abducted two soldiers.

The attack in Qana brought Lebanon's death toll to more than 510 and pushed American peace efforts to a crucial juncture, as fury at the United States flared in Lebanon.

The Beirut government said it would no longer negotiate over a U.S. peace package without an unconditional cease-fire.

In Qana, workers pulled dirt-covered bodies of young boys and girls — dressed in the shorts and T-shirts they had been sleeping in — out of the mangled wreckage of the building. Bodies were carried in blankets.

Two extended families, the Shalhoubs and the Hashems, had gathered in the house for shelter from another night of Israeli bombardment in the border area when the strike brought the building down.

"I was so afraid. There was dirt and rocks and I couldn't see. Everything was black," said 13-year-old Noor Hashem, who survived, although her five siblings did not. She was pulled out of the ruins by her uncle, whose wife and five children also died.

Israel apologized for the deaths but blamed Hezbollah guerrillas, saying they had fired rockets into northern Israel from near the building.

President Bush repeated his call for a "sustainable peace" and said: America mourns the loss of innocent life, those tragic occasions when innocent people are killed."

Before the suspension of airstrikes was announced, Olmert told Rice the campaign to crush Hezbollah could last up to two weeks more.

"We will not stop this battle, despite the difficult incidents this morning," he told his Cabinet after the strike, according to a participant. "If necessary, it will be broadened without hesitation."

The U.N. Security Council met in an emergency session Sunday and approved a presidential statement that called for an end to violence in Lebanon and deplored Israel's attack on Qana. But it stopped short of condemning Israel.

After news of the deaths emerged, Rice telephoned Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora and said she would stay in Jerusalem to continue work on a peace package, rather than make a planned visit to Beirut on Sunday. Saniora said he told her not to come.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who earlier supported the U.S. stance, said Washington must work faster to put together the broader deal it seeks.

But Saniora said talk of a larger peace package must wait until the firing stops.

"We will not negotiate until the Israeli war stops shedding the blood of innocent people," he told a gathering of foreign diplomats. But he underlined that Lebanon stands by ideas for disarming Hezbollah that it put forward earlier this week and that Rice praised.

He took a tough line and hinted that any Hezbollah response to the airstrike at the village of Qana was justified.

"As long as the aggression continues there is response to be exercised," he said, praising Hezbollah's leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah for his "sacrifices."

Lebanon demanded an international probe.

Hezbollah said on its Al-Manar television that it will retaliate, vowing, "The massacre at Qana will not go unanswered." It hit northern Israel on Sunday with 157 rockets — the highest one-day total during the offensive — with one Israeli moderately wounded and 12 others lightly hurt, medics said.

Iraq's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, demanded an immediate cease-fire in Lebanon, warning the Muslim world will "not forgive" nations that stand in the way of stopping the fighting.

Lebanese anger was heightened by memories of a 1996 Israeli artillery bombardment that hit a U.N. base in Qana, killing more than 100 Lebanese who had taken refuge from fighting. That attack sparked an international outcry that forced a halt to an Israeli offensive.

In Beirut, some 5,000 protesters gathered downtown, at one point attacking a U.N. building and burning American flags. They shouted "Destroy Tel Aviv!" and chanted for Hezbollah's ally Syria to hit Israel.

In the Gaza Strip, Palestinians stormed a U.N. compound and smashed its windows Sunday during a protest against Israeli airstrikes. Security officials fired into the air to disperse them.

Images of children's bodies tangled in the building's ruins, being carried away on blankets or wrapped in plastic sheeting were aired on Arab news networks.

In Qana, Khalil Shalhoub was helping pull out the dead until he saw his brother's body taken out on a stretcher.

"Why are they killing us? What have we done?" he screamed.

Israel said Hezbollah had fired more than 40 rockets from Qana before the airstrike, including several from near the building that was bombed.

At a news conference in Tel Aviv Sunday night, military officers showed aerial footage taken two days ago of Katyusha rockets being fired near houses in Qana, and of a Katyusha launcher firing missiles and then being driven into Qana and hidden inside a house.

Foreign Ministry official Gideon Meir accused Hezbollah of "using their own civilian population as human shields."

Israel said residents of Qana had been warned to leave. But Shalhoub and others in the village said residents were too terrified to take the road out of the village.

More than 750,000 Lebanese have fled their homes in the fighting. But many thousands more are still believed holed up in the south, taking refuge in schools, hospitals or basements of apartment buildings amid the fighting — many of them too afraid to flee.

Lebanese Defense Minister Elias Murr disputed allegations that Hezbollah was firing missiles from Qana.

"What do you expect Israel to say? Will it say that it killed 40 children and women?" he told Al-Jazeera television.

Before dawn Sunday, Israeli ground forces backed by heavy artillery fire crossed the border and clashed with Hezbollah guerrillas in the Taibeh Project area, about two miles inside Lebanon. Hezbollah said two of its fighters were killed. Eight Israeli soldiers were wounded.

Some 460 Lebanese, mostly civilians, had been killed in the campaign through Saturday, according to the Health Ministry — before the attacks on Qana. Thirty-three Israeli soldiers have died, and Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israel have killed 18 civilians, Israel said.

____

Kathy Gannon reported from Qana, Lebanon.

[thewizeard]

.Erm..has something changed then?

[cpt_azad]

.Erm..has something changed then?

No.

What Israel is doing right now is nothing short of what the Nazi's were doing in the late 30's and early 40's.

How anyone can blindly support a government that is committing genocide is beyond me....and the fact that other governments support it, well now that's just a bit absurd.

At the same time I condemn what the Hezbollah group has done and to some extent what they are doing, as in firing rockets blindly into Israel that has a lot of potential to kill/injure civillians, but I do support them when it comes to fighting the Israeli army, as in, not targeting civillians and using firearms/mortars to fight of the military (defending themselves).

I really hope this conflict comes to an end soon, but alas, that is highly unlikely. I want to also say that I have nothing against the Jews, just the Zionists that wish to eradicate an entire race of people, and likewise for the extremist islamic groups that will stop at nothing to eradicate the Jews.

In the end, Zionists ARE radical muslims, just with a different point of view, a different religion, and a shitload more weapons and technology.

But I would like to point out something: If you're homeland was taken over by another group of people who wanted nothing more than for you and your kind to pack up and leave, while "they" cut off basic necessities and forced you to live in refugee camps for years on end, would you not pick up a gun and fight?

I sure as hell know that I would.

That was a bit exaggerated, I know full well that before the Holocaust, there were many Jews living in Palestine in harmony with Arabs. It just really makes me mad that what is allowed to happen there goes unnoticed by the rest of the world, and for that matter no one cares about the suffering of the Palestinians. And so they have to resort to drastic measures. While I'm at it, I also condemn suicide attacks and killing of innocent civillians, but pray tell, how can you justify the thousands and thousands of civillians the Israeli's have killed? Americans sure can be blind sometimes to support their government a bit too much, let along another govenment just because they're fighting supposed "terrorists". Sickening.


[/rant]

[j2k4]

.Erm..has something changed then?

No.

What Israel is doing right now is nothing short of what the Nazi's were doing in the late 30's and early 40's.

How anyone can blindly support a government that is committing genocide is beyond me....and the fact that other governments support it, well now that's just a bit absurd.

WTF?

What genocide?

I believe the Germans started WWII (although a great case is made that the overly-punitive nature of the Versailles Treaty "caused" WWII).

This conflict cannot be characterized as having been sparked by any but Hezbollah's exploits.

At the same time I condemn what the Hezbollah group has done and to some extent what they are doing, as in firing rockets blindly into Israel that has a lot of potential to kill/injure civillians, but I do support them when it comes to fighting the Israeli army, as in, not targeting civillians and using firearms/mortars to fight of the military (defending themselves).

With the case you are attempting to make against Israel, why bother condemning Hezbollah at all?

You cannot condemn them in one breath and excuse them with the next.

I really hope this conflict comes to an end soon, but alas, that is highly unlikely. I want to also say that I have nothing against the Jews, just the Zionists that wish to eradicate an entire race of people, and likewise for the extremist islamic groups that will stop at nothing to eradicate the Jews.

You seem to have something backwards.

The Zionists are the Israeli Jews, and any sentiment expressed by way of genocidal eradication belongs to Hezbollah/Hamas/Syria/Iran/Palestine, not Israel.

As to the end of hostilities, better you wish for an end forever, rather than an end soon.

In the end, Zionists ARE radical muslims, just with a different point of view, a different religion, and a shitload more weapons and technology.

I'll settle for a simple (:lol:) elucidation of this particular point.

But I would like to point out something: If you're homeland was taken over by another group of people who wanted nothing more than for you and your kind to pack up and leave, while "they" cut off basic necessities and forced you to live in refugee camps for years on end, would you not pick up a gun and fight?

I sure as hell know that I would.

That was a bit exaggerated, I know full well that before the Holocaust, there were many Jews living in Palestine in harmony with Arabs. It just really makes me mad that what is allowed to happen there goes unnoticed by the rest of the world, and for that matter no one cares about the suffering of the Palestinians. And so they have to resort to drastic measures. While I'm at it, I also condemn suicide attacks and killing of innocent civillians, but pray tell, how can you justify the thousands and thousands of civillians the Israeli's have killed? Americans sure can be blind sometimes to support their government a bit too much, let along another govenment just because they're fighting supposed "terrorists". Sickening.


[/rant]

I realize that was a rant, but rants aren't productive.

What do you think would be Israel's fate were she not better-armed than her neighbors, and capable of defending herself?

Now, once you've got the answer firmly fixed in your mind, post again, and you might come up with what you really think.

[ilw]

How long is Israel going to be a 'jewish state'?
I mean its inherently a pretty racist idea isn't it, it might have made sense 40 odd years ago, but its just unrealistic with the amount of migration that goes on now.
I've completely changed my mind on the whole Israel thing, I'm all for scrapping it now along with palestine and renaming the whole landmass.

Not likely to happen anytime soon i know, but i'm sure the South africans thought they would never be able to coexist and they're slowly getting their shit together

[j2k4]

How long is Israel going to be a 'jewish state'?
I mean its inherently a pretty racist idea isn't it...

Israel, even as a Jewish state, is at least a real democracy.

There are Arabs living there, too.

Any nascent democratic germination in Iraq aside, the type of racism you reference riddles the entire mid-east, Ian.

It is not the secular racism of slavery, either; it is almost entirely of a religious nature.

[Rat Faced]

Ah... the 25% of the population, that is restricted to 3% of the land... 95% of which is open for developmet to Jews only...

It's worth emphasizing that "Israeli democracy" is an incarnation of Apartheid South Africa's democracy.

It also could be argued that Apartheid South Africa was for a very long time the only democracy in Africa, however, it was a democracy for the White race only. Similarly, democracy in Israel was and still is designed to empower Jews only based on their religion.

At one point, Israel has to choose between being a "Democratic Jewish State" or a "Democratic State" to all of its citizens, Jews and non-Jews alike.

"But there are Arab MP's" I hear the cry... well, what type of Democracy is it where the MP's are shot by the police of their own country for protesting against the demolition of their constituants homes? And have their Parliamentary Immunity lifted for doing their Job if they disagree with Israeli Policy?

Eventually, such a facade to democracy will self-destruct, and until it changes, the talk about "Israeli democracy" is nothing but a propaganda that makes good sound bytes in the Western and Israeli press and TV.

[j2k4]

Ah... the 25% of the population, that is restricted to 3% of the land... 95% of which is open for developmet to Jews only...

It's worth emphasizing that "Israeli democracy" is an incarnation of Apartheid South Africa's democracy.

It also could be argued that Apartheid South Africa was for a very long time the only democracy in Africa, however, it was a democracy for the White race only. Similarly, democracy in Israel was and still is designed to empower Jews only based on their religion.

At one point, Israel has to choose between being a "Democratic Jewish State" or a "Democratic State" to all of its citizens, Jews and non-Jews alike.

"But there are Arab MP's" I hear the cry... well, what type of Democracy is it where the MP's are shot by the police of their own country for protesting against the demolition of their constituants homes? And have their Parliamentary Immunity lifted for doing their Job if they disagree with Israeli Policy?

Eventually, such a facade to democracy will self-destruct, and until it changes, the talk about "Israeli democracy" is nothing but a propaganda that makes good sound bytes in the Western and Israeli press and TV.

Still, however you want to paint it, if the situation were reversed, the 25% would be dead, and certainly not buried in-country, but rather floating in the Med.

It is amazing to me the gymnastics of reason and logic people will perform in order hew to the misbegotten "enlightenment" of such an easy presumption of moral equivalence.

Israel cedes formerly "occupied" territory, then has soldiers killed and kidnapped for the ransom of terrorist prisoners, and gets rockets willy-nilly in return in an act of sheer provocation, then retaliates in defense of it's land, citizens, and political stance.

Israel's efforts are more damaging, because it has superior forces and weaponry, while Lebanon (not disavowing Hezbollah) cries it is being victimized, and the world makes noises about proportionate response.

Israel's aim is to end the conflict at the least cost to itself (naturally), while depleting the fortitude of the enemy.

Hezbollah, meanwhile, hides behind the Lebanese citizenry, which fails to appreciate the irony of that particular arrangement.

Israel's only option is to win.

Any mention of the fact of Hezbollah's having started all this is broadcast at the proximate volume of a whisper in the international arena or the U.N.

More U.N. resolutions are offered, to no avail.

Kofi Annan's public commentary is presumptively censorous and accusatory of Israel, sympatico toward Lebanon, and incognate of Hezbollah.

Lonely John Bolton sits astride the situation identifying every spade that presents.

It would be inappropriate, I think, to say now that 'it's a funny old world'.

[cpt_azad]

No.

What Israel is doing right now is nothing short of what the Nazi's were doing in the late 30's and early 40's.

How anyone can blindly support a government that is committing genocide is beyond me....and the fact that other governments support it, well now that's just a bit absurd.

WTF?

What genocide?

I believe the Germans started WWII (although a great case is made that the overly-punitive nature of the Versailles Treaty "caused" WWII).

This conflict cannot be characterized as having been sparked by any but Hezbollah's exploits.

At the same time I condemn what the Hezbollah group has done and to some extent what they are doing, as in firing rockets blindly into Israel that has a lot of potential to kill/injure civillians, but I do support them when it comes to fighting the Israeli army, as in, not targeting civillians and using firearms/mortars to fight of the military (defending themselves).

With the case you are attempting to make against Israel, why bother condemning Hezbollah at all?

You cannot condemn them in one breath and excuse them with the next.

I really hope this conflict comes to an end soon, but alas, that is highly unlikely. I want to also say that I have nothing against the Jews, just the Zionists that wish to eradicate an entire race of people, and likewise for the extremist islamic groups that will stop at nothing to eradicate the Jews.

You seem to have something backwards.

The Zionists are the Israeli Jews, and any sentiment expressed by way of genocidal eradication belongs to Hezbollah/Hamas/Syria/Iran/Palestine, not Israel.

As to the end of hostilities, better you wish for an end forever, rather than an end soon.

In the end, Zionists ARE radical muslims, just with a different point of view, a different religion, and a shitload more weapons and technology.

I'll settle for a simple (:lol:) elucidation of this particular point.

But I would like to point out something: If you're homeland was taken over by another group of people who wanted nothing more than for you and your kind to pack up and leave, while "they" cut off basic necessities and forced you to live in refugee camps for years on end, would you not pick up a gun and fight?

I sure as hell know that I would.

That was a bit exaggerated, I know full well that before the Holocaust, there were many Jews living in Palestine in harmony with Arabs. It just really makes me mad that what is allowed to happen there goes unnoticed by the rest of the world, and for that matter no one cares about the suffering of the Palestinians. And so they have to resort to drastic measures. While I'm at it, I also condemn suicide attacks and killing of innocent civillians, but pray tell, how can you justify the thousands and thousands of civillians the Israeli's have killed? Americans sure can be blind sometimes to support their government a bit too much, let along another govenment just because they're fighting supposed "terrorists". Sickening.


[/rant]

I realize that was a rant, but rants aren't productive.

What do you think would be Israel's fate were she not better-armed than her neighbors, and capable of defending herself?

Now, once you've got the answer firmly fixed in your mind, post again, and you might come up with what you really think.

So defending is defined as attacking other countries and killing their civillians? Also, why do you think the Hezbollah captured the two Israeli soldiers? Instead of automatically pointing the finger at the "terrorists", as the media would have you believe they are (please J2 forgive me, I know you are very well educated man and that last comment isn't directed at you, this first part of the post is a general rebuttle against those that hold the same position/evidence as you do), why not do your research. If you have no bargaining chip to free thousands of innocent people held without any trial, who have nothing to do with terrorist organisations, some of them women and teenagers, well, I'd sure as hell go and capture two or more soldiers of the opposing force to use as bargaining chips. Thank god Hezbollah isn't into the whole beheading trend...

On to your next comment, why can I not diversify? Do I have to STICK WITH ONE THING THROUGHOUT MY ENTIRE LIFE EVEN THOUGH IT'S WRONG...like some republicans and liberals do COUGH COUGH. No I don't, I do know that their tactics are questionable and that some of their acts are completely barbaric (as is like 90% of Israeli military actions) but what they (freedom fighters, terrorists, whatever you want to call them) are doing, fighting for their freedom, that I completely support. No, I will not condemn all their acts just because I condemned a few of them, if you want to call me a flip-flopper so be it, I'm not a brainless person.
Think about it like this, do you fully support Israel? From my point of view, I don't FULLY support Hezbollah, I can find faults, and I know there are faults, so why can you not look for faults in what Israel is doing? Are you that blind? Come on now, you are one of the most learned men on this board, and I respect you for that, please don't let me down.

Your next comment says that all Zionists are Israeli Jews,


Wikipedia: In 1947 Britain announced its intention to withdraw from Palestine, and on 29 November (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_29) the United Nations General Assembly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly) voted to partition Palestine into an Arab state and a Jewish state (with Jerusalem becoming an international enclave). The Jewish Agency accepted the plan, while the Arabs of Palestine and the neighboring countries rejected it and commenced to use force to abort the establishment on a Jewish state in the area allotted to it by the UN. Civil conflict between the Arabs and Jews in Palestine ensued immediately. On 14 May (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_14) 1948 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948) the leaders of the Jewish community in Palestine made a declaration of independence, and the state of Israel was established. This marked a major turning point in the Zionist movement, as its principal goal had now been accomplished. Many Zionist institutions were reshaped, and the three military movements combined to form the Israel Defence Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defence_Forces).
So there was supposed to be a Palestinan state, but lets see, why on earth would the Palestinians reject that idea? Oh ya sorry my bad, I completely forgot that they were asked to give away half their land and rename all their borders and become a smaller country...ya ok that sounds pretty good...not.

I'm sorry, I think you misunderstood my post (hence the [/rant]) and I apologize for that. Here's what I meant:


In the end, Zionists ARE radical muslims, just with a different point of view, a different religion, and a shitload more weapons and technology. = In the end, zionists (Jews that will do anything and I mean anything to keep Israel intact) are no better than radical muslims, if you do not agree with this point, then my friend 2+2=22, the only difference between them are the fact that they belong to different religions and ideologies, and Israel has a much better equipped military and financing complimentary of the US of A. Zionists commit murder and kill in the name of Israel, and no one condemns this, but when a suicide bomber kills Israeli's the world cries out (point out here that I am absolutely against the idea of suicide bombers), but in retrospect, are they not the same??? A laser-guided precision bomb, that can never miss the target, hence intentional by the Israeli military, lands on a house and kills dozens of women and children is the exact same IF NOT WORST then the suicide bomber scenario, do you not agree?

If that was a rant, forgive me. But please feel free to rebutt as much as you like, I shall be back sooner than later. Awaiting your lengthy reply.

[j2k4]

So defending is defined as attacking other countries and killing their civillians? Also, why do you think the Hezbollah captured the two Israeli soldiers? Instead of automatically pointing the finger at the "terrorists", as the media would have you believe they are (please J2 forgive me, I know you are very well educated man and that last comment isn't directed at you, this post is a general rebuttle against those that hold the same position/evidence as you do), why not do your research. If you have no bargaining chip to free thousands of innocent people held without any trial, who have nothing to do with terrorist organisations, some of them women and teenagers, well, I'd sure as hell go and capture two or more soldiers of the opposing force to use as bargaining chips. Thank god Hezbollah isn't into the whole beheading trend...

As to that last, I'll reserve judgement.

Last I looked, any armed conflict begins with a first move, and that one's on Hezbollah...once the festivities begin, neither side owes the other quarter, and, truth be told, I think Israel has shown admirable restraint; war these days should be conducted so as to induce one side or the other to utterly surrender it's motivating intent-in other words, everything goes, this side of WMD.

Israel has not done this.

I don't feel it is productive or telling to bring up past events, especially in this case, because you'd soon be discussing Genesis; there is no proper beginning to it.

If the situation with prisoners goes begging, both sides can wipe that slate clean by killing all of them either holds, then going from there.

It would (at least) eliminate that point of contention, wouldn't it? :dry:

[cpt_azad]

So defending is defined as attacking other countries and killing their civillians? Also, why do you think the Hezbollah captured the two Israeli soldiers? Instead of automatically pointing the finger at the "terrorists", as the media would have you believe they are (please J2 forgive me, I know you are very well educated man and that last comment isn't directed at you, this post is a general rebuttle against those that hold the same position/evidence as you do), why not do your research. If you have no bargaining chip to free thousands of innocent people held without any trial, who have nothing to do with terrorist organisations, some of them women and teenagers, well, I'd sure as hell go and capture two or more soldiers of the opposing force to use as bargaining chips. Thank god Hezbollah isn't into the whole beheading trend...

As to that last, I'll reserve judgement.

Last I looked, any armed conflict begins with a first move, and that one's on Hezbollah...once the festivities begin, neither side owes the other quarter, and, truth be told, I think Israel has shown admirable restraint; war these days should be conducted so as to induce one side or the other to utterly surrender it's motivating intent-in other words, everything goes, this side of WMD.

Israel has not done this.

I don't feel it is productive or telling to bring up past events, especially in this case, because you'd soon be discussing Genesis; there is no proper beginning to it.

If the situation with prisoners goes begging, both sides can wipe that slate clean by killing all of them either holds, then going from there.

It would (at least) eliminate that point of contention, wouldn't it? :dry:

So, kill 2 Israeli Non-commisioned officers who will never amount to anything other than Infantry soldiers along with the thousands and thousands of innocent captives being held by Israel, mostly women and teenagers (yes there are criminals and terrorists amongst that populous, but a fraction of them only). If that will wipe the slate clean, then so be it, why not just kill the entire Palestinian population, while you're at it, go forward of it and kill off the Lebanese and the Syrians and perhaps some Egyptians, because one thing I've come to learn in today's sad world, is that no one in the West will think twice, the newsnetworks will broadcast the "defense of Israel (killing the thousands of captives)" and the "massacre of 2 soldiers" for a few days and all will be normal.

And please do tell, why we cannot discuss "who started it", where the heck did Genesis come from, this has nothing to do with origins of Life (probably a rhetorical statement but right now I'm not in the thinking state). They captured those 2 Israeli soldiers as bargaining chips to settle a score that Israel had brought upon itself, one day we all have to answer for our sins regardless of race, religion and beliefs.

[MediaSlayer]

Ah... the 25% of the population, that is restricted to 3% of the land... 95% of which is open for developmet to Jews only...

It's worth emphasizing that "Israeli democracy" is an incarnation of Apartheid South Africa's democracy.

It also could be argued that Apartheid South Africa was for a very long time the only democracy in Africa, however, it was a democracy for the White race only. Similarly, democracy in Israel was and still is designed to empower Jews only based on their religion.

At one point, Israel has to choose between being a "Democratic Jewish State" or a "Democratic State" to all of its citizens, Jews and non-Jews alike.


Just one small problem with the south african analogy. Are south africans targeted throughout the world because of who they are? I have spoken with many south africans while they were travelling here in my country and none of them ever reported that kind of thing away from their native region. I have heard alot of things happening there, but when they travel elsewhere, like asia for instance, are they being targeted just because they are south african? I think the answer is no. The idea of Israel is a place for Jews to live in peace without fanatic dickheads like you trying to kill them. Simple as that. Do you think you are fooling anybody on this forum? What makes you different than the arab with a bomb on his back hell bent on killing jews because "the koran said it was right"? The end result would be the same, although the reasoning might be different. Yes, I believe you, there was a time when you were a soldier with a gun in your hand. Who would you have liked to have killed with that gun?

The first time I printed this article, I only made this one paragraph bold without any comment at the bottom. I did that deliberately to see if anyone would notice the significance of the paragraph, and if anyone did, they didn't comment on it. So we see here, that even when the news is reported with both sides intact, some will see only one side.

At a news conference in Tel Aviv Sunday night, military officers showed aerial footage taken two days ago of Katyusha rockets being fired near houses in Qana, and of a Katyusha launcher firing missiles and then being driven into Qana and hidden inside a house.

[cpt_azad]

Ah... the 25% of the population, that is restricted to 3% of the land... 95% of which is open for developmet to Jews only...

It's worth emphasizing that "Israeli democracy" is an incarnation of Apartheid South Africa's democracy.

It also could be argued that Apartheid South Africa was for a very long time the only democracy in Africa, however, it was a democracy for the White race only. Similarly, democracy in Israel was and still is designed to empower Jews only based on their religion.

At one point, Israel has to choose between being a "Democratic Jewish State" or a "Democratic State" to all of its citizens, Jews and non-Jews alike.


Just one small problem with the south african analogy. Are south africans targeted throughout the world because of who they are? I have spoken with many south africans while they were travelling here in my country and none of them ever reported that kind of thing away from their native region. I have heard alot of things happening there, but when they travel elsewhere, like asia for instance, are they being targeted just because they are south african? I think the answer is no. The idea of Israel is a place for Jews to live in peace without fanatic dickheads like you trying to kill them.

RF does not want to kill Jews, so you can just calm down. Ask a Jew, is he targeted when he travels to other countries (within reason, i.e. not to Arab countries, I'll get to that in a second), go ahead ask, I'll wait.


Ok good.



Simple as that. Do you think you are fooling anybody on this forum?

If he were fooling anyone, it would be you.

What makes you different than the arab with a bomb on his back hell bent on killing jews because "the koran said it was right"?

What makes you different then a stereotypical facist SOB? Nothing. The Koran said it was right? Please, go read the Quran first then come back and post something intelligent. Why do you think all the Arab countries hate Israel and the Jews so much? Because of what Israel does and is doing. They (Israel/military/gov't) know damn well how to enrage the other Arab countries and piss em off good, use that as a catalyst, and when the "terrorists" strike back, they use that event as a shield and unleash hell. If Israel didn't do that and learned in the early 50's late 40's how to live in peace, Jews could roam the Earth freely just like everyone else.

The end result would be the same, although the reasoning might be different.

What end result? The fact that he'd kill someone? So you're saying that killing someone is killing a Jew? How does that exactly work? In that case, by your standards, the entire world is anti-semitic, even the Jews!

Yes, I believe you, there was a time when you were a soldier with a gun in your hand. Who would you have liked to have killed with that gun?

Only aggressors that would want to invade his country and take it away from him, an analogy to how the idea of Israel stole the land of Palestine. People like you are all talk, I know that I would defend my country and my land if it were invaded or taken away unrightfully, and yes, I am in the Air Force currently under ROTP so my credentials stand.

The first time I printed this article, I only made this one paragraph bold without any comment at the bottom. I did that deliberately to see if anyone would notice the significance of the paragraph, and if anyone did, they didn't comment on it. So we see here, that even when the news is reported with both sides intact, some will see only one side.

If man did not have opinion, we'd all be Bush's cronies.

At a news conference in Tel Aviv Sunday night, military officers showed aerial footage taken two days ago of Katyusha rockets being fired near houses in Qana, and of a Katyusha launcher firing missiles and then being driven into Qana and hidden inside a house.

Evidence is key, did you see the video? Thought so.




So very sad of a person you are.

[Busyman™]

As to that last, I'll reserve judgement.

Last I looked, any armed conflict begins with a first move, and that one's on Hezbollah...once the festivities begin, neither side owes the other quarter, and, truth be told, I think Israel has shown admirable restraint; war these days should be conducted so as to induce one side or the other to utterly surrender it's motivating intent-in other words, everything goes, this side of WMD.

Israel has not done this.

I don't feel it is productive or telling to bring up past events, especially in this case, because you'd soon be discussing Genesis; there is no proper beginning to it.

If the situation with prisoners goes begging, both sides can wipe that slate clean by killing all of them either holds, then going from there.

It would (at least) eliminate that point of contention, wouldn't it? :dry:

So, kill 2 Israeli Non-commisioned officers who will never amount to anything other than Infantry soldiers along with the thousands and thousands of innocent captives being held by Israel, mostly women and teenagers (yes there are criminals and terrorists amongst that populous, but a fraction of them only). If that will wipe the slate clean, then so be it, why not just kill the entire Palestinian population, while you're at it, go forward of it and kill off the Lebanese and the Syrians and perhaps some Egyptians, because one thing I've come to learn in today's sad world, is that no one in the West will think twice, the newsnetworks will broadcast the "defense of Israel (killing the thousands of captives)" and the "massacre of 2 soldiers" for a few days and all will be normal.

And please do tell, why we cannot discuss "who started it", where the heck did Genesis come from, this has nothing to do with origins of Life (probably a rhetorical statement but right now I'm not in the thinking state). They captured those 2 Israeli soldiers as bargaining chips to settle a score that Israel had brought upon itself, one day we all have to answer for our sins regardless of race, religion and beliefs.
Israel has no obligation to keep going along with bargaining chips. At some point there is a cut off.

I do tire of the lastest terrorist strike being mere a footnote or not mentioned at all but if a kid is at the end of an Israeli bullet, there's a fucking thread about it.

Hezbollah is thoroughly entrenched in Lebanon and the two are not easily separated. Lebanon seems to not do shit all about it besides a denunciation out in the open.

Maybe if muslims want an end to violence maybe they should fuck off and not provoke an attack. Middle eastern jews and muslims are like two dumb ass gangs claiming revenge for shit they started.

[j2k4]

In the end, Zionists ARE radical muslims, just with a different point of view, a different religion, and a shitload more weapons and technology. = In the end, zionists (Jews that will do anything and I mean anything to keep Israel intact) are no better than radical muslims, if you do not agree with this point, then my friend 2+2=22, the only difference between them are the fact that they belong to different religions and ideologies, and Israel has a much better equipped military and financing complimentary of the US of A. Zionists commit murder and kill in the name of Israel, and no one condemns this, but when a suicide bomber kills Israeli's the world cries out (point out here that I am absolutely against the idea of suicide bombers), but in retrospect, are they not the same??? A laser-guided precision bomb, that can never miss the target, hence intentional by the Israeli military, lands on a house and kills dozens of women and children is the exact same IF NOT WORST then the suicide bomber scenario, do you not agree?

If that was a rant, forgive me. But please feel free to rebutt as much as you like, I shall be back sooner than later. Awaiting your lengthy reply.

I find the flaw in your argument to be the one that begs to lead, yet has totally escaped your mention:

It is the stated aim of...oh, fuck it, let's just say the rest of the mid-east (probably including-truth be told-Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt) to wipe Israel off the map/push them into the sea/otherwise eradicate them.

The basic injustice (a mild description for a monstrous imperative, no?) which arises from the fact that this does not occasion a counter-commentary from any quarter, save the United States or it's handful of true allies, is an utter abomination.

'Nuff said.

[cpt_azad]

In the end, Zionists ARE radical muslims, just with a different point of view, a different religion, and a shitload more weapons and technology. = In the end, zionists (Jews that will do anything and I mean anything to keep Israel intact) are no better than radical muslims, if you do not agree with this point, then my friend 2+2=22, the only difference between them are the fact that they belong to different religions and ideologies, and Israel has a much better equipped military and financing complimentary of the US of A. Zionists commit murder and kill in the name of Israel, and no one condemns this, but when a suicide bomber kills Israeli's the world cries out (point out here that I am absolutely against the idea of suicide bombers), but in retrospect, are they not the same??? A laser-guided precision bomb, that can never miss the target, hence intentional by the Israeli military, lands on a house and kills dozens of women and children is the exact same IF NOT WORST then the suicide bomber scenario, do you not agree?

If that was a rant, forgive me. But please feel free to rebutt as much as you like, I shall be back sooner than later. Awaiting your lengthy reply.

I find the flaw in your argument to be the one that begs to lead, yet has totally escaped your mention:

It is the stated aim of...oh, fuck it, let's just say the rest of the mid-east (probably including-truth be told-Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt) to wipe Israel off the map/push them into the sea/otherwise eradicate them.

The basic injustice (a mild description for a monstrous imperative, no?) which arises from the fact that this does not occasion a counter-commentary from any quarter, save the United States or it's handful of true allies, is an utter abomination.

'Nuff said.

Very well put. I seem to have missed that point completely. Yes you are right, that there are countries in that region that would like nothing more than to destroy Israel, but does Israel deserve it? I mean, there were many Jews living in Palestine before the creation of Israel. Why not just change the name of Israel back to Palestine, that's the easy way out :whistling


Alas, it all goes back to who "started it" which is as childish as "which came first, the chicken or the egg" dilemma.

It's sad that you and I can admit our mistakes, learn from them (most of the times), and move on, while both the Arabs and the Zionists/Jews can never comprehend that concept.

[MediaSlayer]

RF does not want to kill Jews, so you can just calm down. Ask a Jew, is he targeted when he travels to other countries (within reason, i.e. not to Arab countries, I'll get to that in a second), go ahead ask, I'll wait.

Within reason? I like your politically correct scales, may I borrow them? And are you implying that arab countries "don't count"? Isn't that one of the reasons that the arab nations want so badly to fight the west right now, because of that kind of "they don't count" treatment they get from the west?


Jews are being targeted right now, throughout the world, but normally it's not in a physical way(but I will say I don't think I would feel very safe in France). When I look at news reports on TV, they have a tendency to show pictures of two things. Small palastinian babies(or recently lebanese) or young children lying dead and Israeli soldiers holding guns. What the news cannot get wrong is the numbers of rockets fired and things like that. Do you really think that a significant number of rockets can be fired at a city like haifa and not hit children? Is haifa a city free of children? When it happens, and it does happen, that kind of thing gets edited out. I don't watch BBC I'm commenting on American news outlets here.


What makes you different than the arab with a bomb on his back hell bent on killing jews because "the koran said it was right"?

What makes you different then a stereotypical facist SOB? Nothing. The Koran said it was right? Please, stfu and go read the Quran first then come back and post something intelligent.


Here is a quote from the Koran:
> And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence.

I can find some others if you want to argue that bad


Yes, I believe you, there was a time when you were a soldier with a gun in your hand. Who would you have liked to have killed with that gun?

Only aggressors that would want to invade his country and take it away from him, an analogy to how the idea of Israel stole the land of Palestine.


We have discussed the ownership of land thing before that's an entirely different thread. I can post a link to it if you are that bored.

If man did not have opinion, we'd all be Bush's cronies.


dude, that's like, deep..... :)


Evidence is key, did you see the video? Thought so.
[/B]

If you had read my post more carefully, I didn't say that it happened. I was commenting on the fact that an interesting piece of information went unnoticed.

[MediaSlayer]

wtf?? so, cpt_azad, instead of giving a rebuttal to my post you go back and edit the quotes that i quoted from yours?

What a coward, stand up and fight like a man. What would hezbollah think of your cowardly ways? Oh that's right, they would launch a rocket at Israeli civilians. Or better, Hamas :)

[Rat Faced]

Ah... the 25% of the population, that is restricted to 3% of the land... 95% of which is open for developmet to Jews only...

It's worth emphasizing that "Israeli democracy" is an incarnation of Apartheid South Africa's democracy.

It also could be argued that Apartheid South Africa was for a very long time the only democracy in Africa, however, it was a democracy for the White race only. Similarly, democracy in Israel was and still is designed to empower Jews only based on their religion.

At one point, Israel has to choose between being a "Democratic Jewish State" or a "Democratic State" to all of its citizens, Jews and non-Jews alike.


Just one small problem with the south african analogy. Are south africans targeted throughout the world because of who they are? I have spoken with many south africans while they were travelling here in my country and none of them ever reported that kind of thing away from their native region. I have heard alot of things happening there, but when they travel elsewhere, like asia for instance, are they being targeted just because they are south african? I think the answer is no.

Think back to when they still had apartheid. There were sanctions against them from most of the world, some of the countries having internal policies on Race/Creed little better than their own.

The idea of Israel is a place for Jews to live in peace without fanatic dickheads like you trying to kill them. Simple as that. Do you think you are fooling anybody on this forum? What makes you different than the arab with a bomb on his back hell bent on killing jews because "the koran said it was right"? The end result would be the same, although the reasoning might be different. Yes, I believe you, there was a time when you were a soldier with a gun in your hand. Who would you have liked to have killed with that gun?

No-one. I didnt want to kill anyone, and luckily i never did.

I also disagree with your opinion that I'm anti-Jewish, there is plenty of evidence on this board that I'm not. My Fiancee is a Jew ffs.

Anti-Israeli? No.. I believe that Israel has a right to exist, I dont believe that it has the right to kill every fucker it wants to and call it "Self Defence". Before it gets sympathy from me re all this shit, it needs to put its own house in order, simple as that.

The first time I printed this article, I only made this one paragraph bold without any comment at the bottom. I did that deliberately to see if anyone would notice the significance of the paragraph, and if anyone did, they didn't comment on it. So we see here, that even when the news is reported with both sides intact, some will see only one side.

At a news conference in Tel Aviv Sunday night, military officers showed aerial footage taken two days ago of Katyusha rockets being fired near houses in Qana, and of a Katyusha launcher firing missiles and then being driven into Qana and hidden inside a house.

I think everyone here has already said that they understand about targeting Hizbollah and that Israel has the right to attack them.

Now show me the video of Hizbollah in the International Airport, Tripoli, Field Hospitals, Red Cross Convoys, UN Observation Post and Refugee Columns that were targeted.

[Rat Faced]

In the end, Zionists ARE radical muslims, just with a different point of view, a different religion, and a shitload more weapons and technology. = In the end, zionists (Jews that will do anything and I mean anything to keep Israel intact) are no better than radical muslims, if you do not agree with this point, then my friend 2+2=22, the only difference between them are the fact that they belong to different religions and ideologies, and Israel has a much better equipped military and financing complimentary of the US of A. Zionists commit murder and kill in the name of Israel, and no one condemns this, but when a suicide bomber kills Israeli's the world cries out (point out here that I am absolutely against the idea of suicide bombers), but in retrospect, are they not the same??? A laser-guided precision bomb, that can never miss the target, hence intentional by the Israeli military, lands on a house and kills dozens of women and children is the exact same IF NOT WORST then the suicide bomber scenario, do you not agree?

If that was a rant, forgive me. But please feel free to rebutt as much as you like, I shall be back sooner than later. Awaiting your lengthy reply.

I find the flaw in your argument to be the one that begs to lead, yet has totally escaped your mention:

It is the stated aim of...oh, fuck it, let's just say the rest of the mid-east (probably including-truth be told-Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt) to wipe Israel off the map/push them into the sea/otherwise eradicate them.

The basic injustice (a mild description for a monstrous imperative, no?) which arises from the fact that this does not occasion a counter-commentary from any quarter, save the United States or it's handful of true allies, is an utter abomination.

'Nuff said.

One thing here that disposes of your entire argument..

The proposals in 2003 orginating in Saudi and agreed with the entire Arab League, which would have had Israel and its right to exist recognised by every Arab State. These were dimissed out of hand by Israel and the USA, despite being the fairest "Peace Offer" to date.

I think the general thrust was... go back to the Borders of 1967, however if you've already settled part, no problem..give the equivalent amount of land from somewhere else and keep the settled area. Forget about the UN resolution on the returnee's.

This comes down to the Strongest Country in the Middle East is bombing the crap out of the Weakest.

[MediaSlayer]

The first time I printed this article, I only made this one paragraph bold without any comment at the bottom. I did that deliberately to see if anyone would notice the significance of the paragraph, and if anyone did, they didn't comment on it. So we see here, that even when the news is reported with both sides intact, some will see only one side.

At a news conference in Tel Aviv Sunday night, military officers showed aerial footage taken two days ago of Katyusha rockets being fired near houses in Qana, and of a Katyusha launcher firing missiles and then being driven into Qana and hidden inside a house.

I think everyone here has already said that they understand about targeting Hizbollah and that Israel has the right to attack them.

It's not even that, Paul. If that(video footage) were true, about them(hezbollah) using that particular house as a hiding place for their rocket launcher, then that would be fairly clear evidence of them(hezbollah) using their own civilians as human sheilds. Women and children at that.

Soooo... a quick recap of the chain of events that led up to the 48 partial ceasefire would be:

1-An Israeli airstrike on the city of Qana left ~56 people dead, mostly women and children

2-In the wake of the strike, international pressure caused the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert to agree to a 48 hour partial ceasefire. Meanwhile the Israeli military would investigate the incident.

3-During her mideast visit, Condoleezza Rice was forced to cut short her mission and make some conciliatory comments with regards to the attack, and also hint that in respose she would push for a (cease fire oriented)resolution at the U.N. Security Council this week.

4-At a news conference in Tel Aviv Sunday night, military officers showed aerial footage taken two days ago of Katyusha rockets being fired near houses in Qana, and of a Katyusha launcher firing missiles and then being driven into Qana and hidden inside a house.


>quote-I also disagree with your opinion that I'm anti-Jewish, there is plenty of evidence on this board that I'm not. My Fiancee is a Jew ffs.

Oh please, does that really prove anything? Is George Bush a "black friendly president" just because he picked Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to be his "hey look at me, how much i like black people" Secretary of State? Were you born here, you would have made a good Republican.

[cpt_azad]

wtf?? so, cpt_azad, instead of giving a rebuttal to my post you go back and edit the quotes that i quoted from yours?

What a coward, stand up and fight like a man. What would hezbollah think of your cowardly ways? Oh that's right, they would launch a rocket at Israeli civilians. Or better, Hamas :)


Laziness and cowardness are two completely different things, learn the difference my friend it can come in handy sometimes :). Stand up and fight like a man? What exactly will I be fighting? Israel? Then I'd be automatically labelled as a "terrorist" by you and your redneck friends, but you know what? I'd gladly fight Israel if I were in the position to do so. The injustices done by Israel will have to be answered one day, and the injustices caused by the "terrorists" too, I'm not biased, I don't strongly believe in one thing while exempting it for another group. Both groups have done wrong, one more than the other, guess which group that is.

Launching a rocket at civillians compared to launching a laser guided ordinance with deadly accuracy at civillians are also two completely different things, do you not remember those civillians/families killed on the beach by a helicopter using precision bombs? Oh right, I bet you probably don't thanks to your CNN and FOX news.

Listen my friend, my fight isn't with you, but for as long as I live I will be targeted by your kind because I have an opinion that differs from your's and that of Bush's, and for that I will not apologize at all because unlike others of my generation I believe Freedom of Speech is a right, something that most Americans seem not to care about anymore, they will just conform to whatever the media tells them and play along believing what the government wants them to believe, which if I'm not mistakened is called laziness (at least to some extent), do your own research, make up your own opinions, and I know that there is no way in hell that I will ever change your opinion and I completely respect that, at least you have an argument to make with some really bad evidence nonetheless, but hey at least your trying. Call me whatever you want, terrorist, hippie, liberal, anti-semite, just ask yourself one thing, what would you do if you are in the shoes of a Palestinian?

[Busyman™]

I find the flaw in your argument to be the one that begs to lead, yet has totally escaped your mention:

It is the stated aim of...oh, fuck it, let's just say the rest of the mid-east (probably including-truth be told-Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt) to wipe Israel off the map/push them into the sea/otherwise eradicate them.

The basic injustice (a mild description for a monstrous imperative, no?) which arises from the fact that this does not occasion a counter-commentary from any quarter, save the United States or it's handful of true allies, is an utter abomination.

'Nuff said.

One thing here that disposes of your entire argument..

The proposals in 2003 orginating in Saudi and agreed with the entire Arab League, which would have had Israel and its right to exist recognised by every Arab State. These were dimissed out of hand by Israel and the USA, despite being the fairest "Peace Offer" to date.

I think the general thrust was... go back to the Borders of 1967, however if you've already settled part, no problem..give the equivalent amount of land from somewhere else and keep the settled area. Forget about the UN resolution on the returnee's.

This comes down to the Strongest Country in the Middle East is bombing the crap out of the Weakest.

No it doesn't.

Stop fucking with the strongest country then.

[cpt_azad]

One thing here that disposes of your entire argument..

The proposals in 2003 orginating in Saudi and agreed with the entire Arab League, which would have had Israel and its right to exist recognised by every Arab State. These were dimissed out of hand by Israel and the USA, despite being the fairest "Peace Offer" to date.

I think the general thrust was... go back to the Borders of 1967, however if you've already settled part, no problem..give the equivalent amount of land from somewhere else and keep the settled area. Forget about the UN resolution on the returnee's.

This comes down to the Strongest Country in the Middle East is bombing the crap out of the Weakest.

No it doesn't.

Stop fucking with the strongest country then.

So all the other countries should just stop "fucking" with the strongest country because of the fact they are the strongest country in the M.E.? Sorry Busy, they aren't that cowardly as to not stand up and say to themselves "Oh wow, what Israel is doing is completely insane, I gotta do something".

Of course, suiciding bombings and killing Israeli civillians is 110% wrong in any case, but what justifies Israel killing Palestinian civillians? Isn't that also 110% wrong? Why would you exempt that for Israel while condeming the others for it? Are they that special? Also, how many more Palestinian+Lebanese+Syrian civillians have died compared to Israeli civillians?

[Busyman™]

No it doesn't.

Stop fucking with the strongest country then.

So all the other countries should just stop "fucking" with the strongest country because of the fact they are the strongest country in the M.E.? Sorry Busy, they aren't that cowardly as to not stand up and say to themselves "Oh wow, what Israel is doing is completely insane, I gotta do something".

Of course, suiciding bombings and killing Israeli civillians is 110% wrong in any case, but what justifies Israel killing Palestinian civillians? Isn't that also 110% wrong? Why would you exempt that for Israel while condeming the others for it? Are they that special? Also, how many more Palestinian+Lebanese+Syrian civillians have died compared to Israeli civillians?

You are saying the same shit in reverse. and now we're starting.....


Middle eastern jews and muslims are like two dumb ass gangs claiming revenge for shit they started.

Also the point was, it doesn't just come down to the strongest country bombing the weakest.

Both countries fight with their strengths. One can't suicide bomb a crowded bus then one-sidedly complain that they were too bombed in a different manner in response.

Suicide bombers targets are only civilian in Israel. What comes of that? An Israeli response. If Israel does nothing for 2 months they'd get suicide bombs, rockets, and/or kidnappings for their trouble.

Ya damn right it's not just "this comes down to the strongest country bombing the weakest".

Again, stop fucking with the stronger country.

[MediaSlayer]

Oh right, I bet you probably don't thanks to your CNN and FOX news.



Like the eccentric man portrayed in this article (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694), I don't own a television so I don't watch cnn very often. I would not watch fox regardless, except to poke fun at it. The only time I watch TV is when I'm at the pub and it happens to be on.


Then I'd be automatically labelled as a "terrorist" by you and your redneck friends,

I do not normally use that word, it's a propaganda tool. When I do, I use it in parenthesis like I have done above. I have even gone so far as to claim, on this very forum, that there is no such thing as terrorism, only "scararism" which is the same concept as the parent telling the little child about the monster under his/her bed that will do something bad to him/her if he/she does not behave. In a similar fashion did those in positions of power in this country put everyone(in this country at least) on guard after September 11th and had everyone beat down into submission with fear so they would pass the hideous "patriot act".

and what you are saying to busy about how many israeli's killed versus how many lebanese and palastinian killed,

compare the total world jewish population, which is not more than 1% of world population to the total arab population of palastine, lebanon, syria, jordan, ect....


then maybe you might see that the arab nations have more people, iran in particular has made headlines lately to the tune of "we will sacrifice our lives for....." the idea is that if you die for a religious cause you will go to heaven

but if they kill enough israeli's in the process, there will be arabs leftover but no israelis

obviously, the israelis don't want that

[cpt_azad]

Like the eccentric man portrayed in this article (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694), I don't own a television so I don't watch cnn very often. I would not watch fox regardless, except to poke fun at it. The only time I watch TV is when I'm at the pub and it happens to be on.


Then I'd be automatically labelled as a "terrorist" by you and your redneck friends,

I do not normally use that word, it's a propaganda tool. When I do, I use it in parenthesis like I have done above. I have even gone so far as to claim, on this very forum, that there is no such thing as terrorism, only "scararism" which is the same concept as the parent telling the little child about the monster under his/her bed that will do something bad to him/her if he/she does not behave. In a similar fashion did those in positions of power in this country put everyone(in this country at least) on guard after September 11th and had everyone beat down into submission with fear so they would pass the hideous "patriot act".

and what you are saying to busy about how many israeli's killed versus how many lebanese and palastinian killed,

compare the total world jewish population, which is not more than 1% of world population to the total arab population of palastine, lebanon, syria, jordan, ect....


then maybe you might see that the arab nations have more people, iran in particular has made headlines lately to the tune of "we will sacrifice our lives for....." the idea is that if you die for a religious cause you will go to heaven

but if they kill enough israeli's in the process, there will be arabs leftover but no israelis

obviously, the israelis don't want that


"We will sacrifice our lives for..." ok I see that point, and although a valid one, it's a flawed one you shouldn't have brought up. That statement means that they will fight, not civillians, but they meaning hardliners, militants, militias, "organisations" agains the Israeli and die if need be. This is not to be confused with the civillians, kids, mothers, innocent "bystanders" that get killed by precision bombing complimentary of Israel that don't want to fight and give their lives.

Just a simple comparison that people just won't answer (I think I've stated it 3 times now including this post): Precision bombing and random rocket fire, which one is more intentional? Both result in the killing of innocent civillians, but one of those options you know EXACTLY what your gonna end up with.

[Busyman]

Like the eccentric man portrayed in this article (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694), I don't own a television so I don't watch cnn very often. I would not watch fox regardless, except to poke fun at it. The only time I watch TV is when I'm at the pub and it happens to be on.



I do not normally use that word, it's a propaganda tool. When I do, I use it in parenthesis like I have done above. I have even gone so far as to claim, on this very forum, that there is no such thing as terrorism, only "scararism" which is the same concept as the parent telling the little child about the monster under his/her bed that will do something bad to him/her if he/she does not behave. In a similar fashion did those in positions of power in this country put everyone(in this country at least) on guard after September 11th and had everyone beat down into submission with fear so they would pass the hideous "patriot act".

and what you are saying to busy about how many israeli's killed versus how many lebanese and palastinian killed,

compare the total world jewish population, which is not more than 1% of world population to the total arab population of palastine, lebanon, syria, jordan, ect....


then maybe you might see that the arab nations have more people, iran in particular has made headlines lately to the tune of "we will sacrifice our lives for....." the idea is that if you die for a religious cause you will go to heaven

but if they kill enough israeli's in the process, there will be arabs leftover but no israelis

obviously, the israelis don't want that


"We will sacrifice our lives for..." ok I see that point, and although a valid one, it's a flawed one you shouldn't have brought up. That statement means that they will fight, not civillians, but they meaning hardliners, militants, militias, "organisations" agains the Israeli and die if need be. This is not to be confused with the civillians, kids, mothers, innocent "bystanders" that get killed by precision bombing complimentary of Israel that don't want to fight and give their lives.

Just a simple comparison that people just won't answer (I think I've stated it 3 times now including this post): Precision bombing and random rocket fire, which one is more intentional? Both result in the killing of innocent civillians, but one of those options you know EXACTLY what your gonna end up with.
So again, you are one-sided. Suicide bombers go after civilians. Precision instruments are still at the mercy of human error.

[Rat Faced]

@ MediaSlayer,

small point, but important to Arabs...

Iran isn't an Arab Nation, they're Persian.. Generally the two groups dont get on well...

It is Islamic (waaaayyyyyyy Islamic..) however, so the point stands in part if you change "Arab Nations" to "Islamic Nations"...

Ah... but then it falls again, because Lebanon is neither an Arab Nation nor an Islamic one... Its mixed (waaayyyy Mixed) with the Christians usually holding the balance of power.

[cpt_azad]

"We will sacrifice our lives for..." ok I see that point, and although a valid one, it's a flawed one you shouldn't have brought up. That statement means that they will fight, not civillians, but they meaning hardliners, militants, militias, "organisations" agains the Israeli and die if need be. This is not to be confused with the civillians, kids, mothers, innocent "bystanders" that get killed by precision bombing complimentary of Israel that don't want to fight and give their lives.

Just a simple comparison that people just won't answer (I think I've stated it 3 times now including this post): Precision bombing and random rocket fire, which one is more intentional? Both result in the killing of innocent civillians, but one of those options you know EXACTLY what your gonna end up with.
So again, you are one-sided. Suicide bombers go after civilians. Precision instruments are still at the mercy of human error.

Are you fucking kidding me dude? Precision instruments are still at the mercy of human error? Please don't fool yourself. NOT once did I say suicide bombers don't go after civi's, I said random rocket fire to some extent isn't targeted at civillians although they have huge potential, random rocket fire and suicide bombings are two completely different things. If I'm one sided, then what are you? Do a google/wiki search on IR and/or LG bombs, check to see how accurate they are. From the point they launch to the point they hit, a laser or sensor needs to be pinpointing it's exact location, as in an aircraft (fighter jet, helicopter) using a laser to designate the exact location to be hit by the missile/bomb. The only way that human error could be accounted into the mix is if the military has faulty information on the whereabouts of the "terrorists" are, which is 100% flawed, here's why:

-If the military does not know where the militants/terrorists are, then why on earth would they be so hasty and rushed to start precision bombing randomly, isn't that the exact same as the random rocket attacks by Hezbollah?

-If Israel, for whatever reason, gets wrong information and whereabouts about the militants, don't you think by now they would have given up on their faulty sources and gone on to other sources?

The point stands, precision bombing is almost impossible to be susceptible to human error, the only susceptibility that lies there within is if the information on the location the bomb is to be dropped is false, or if the pilot that is directing the bomb to it's target is a sadistic son of a bitch and no better then the people they are fighting (along with his/her Commanding Officer to give them such authority).

I don't blame you Busy for not knowing about precision bombing, but you know, best to do your research first then post. And please don't bring up the age-old rebuttle of "jammers" used to misguide the bombs, the models that Israel are using right now are top of the line laser guided (or IR) bombs/missiles, if Hezbollah could magically invent a jammer that could interfere with their signals, then by now the war would be over cuz they would be able to invent a million other unimaginable things.

If you consider me one-sided then fine, your opinion. I have time and time agains stated my dislike for the tactics used by Hezbollah, Hamas, etc., you can't ignore that. But fighting for freedom, then I'm hella one sided on that topic just like I (or any caring person) would be one-sided on the topic of animal cruelty.

[cpt_azad]

Read then post (this one goes out to MediaSlayer):

http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/22114/The_Myth_About_Hezbollah_Hiding_Among_Civilians

[cpt_azad]

And this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vK2xKURltqE&search=Israeli_settlers_stone_human_rights_workers_in_Hebron

video proof.

[Busyman™]

So again, you are one-sided. Suicide bombers go after civilians. Precision instruments are still at the mercy of human error.

Are you fucking kidding me dude? Precision instruments are still at the mercy of human error? Please don't fool yourself. NOT once did I say suicide bombers don't go after civi's, I said random rocket fire to some extent isn't targeted at civillians although they have huge potential, random rocket fire and suicide bombings are two completely different things. If I'm one sided, then what are you? Do a google/wiki search on IR and/or LG bombs, check to see how accurate they are. From the point they launch to the point they hit, a laser or sensor needs to be pinpointing it's exact location, as in an aircraft (fighter jet, helicopter) using a laser to designate the exact location to be hit by the missile/bomb. The only way that human error could be accounted into the mix is if the military has faulty information on the whereabouts of the "terrorists" are, which is 100% flawed, here's why:

-If the military does not know where the militants/terrorists are, then why on earth would they be so hasty and rushed to start precision bombing randomly, isn't that the exact same as the random rocket attacks by Hezbollah?

-If Israel, for whatever reason, gets wrong information and whereabouts about the militants, don't you think by now they would have given up on their faulty sources and gone on to other sources?

The point stands, precision bombing is almost impossible to be susceptible to human error, the only susceptibility that lies there within is if the information on the location the bomb is to be dropped is false, or if the pilot that is directing the bomb to it's target is a sadistic son of a bitch and no better then the people they are fighting (along with his/her Commanding Officer to give them such authority).

I don't blame you Busy for not knowing about precision bombing, but you know, best to do your research first then post. And please don't bring up the age-old rebuttle of "jammers" used to misguide the bombs, the models that Israel are using right now are top of the line laser guided (or IR) bombs/missiles, if Hezbollah could magically invent a jammer that could interfere with their signals, then by now the war would be over cuz they would be able to invent a million other unimaginable things.

If you consider me one-sided then fine, your opinion. I have time and time agains stated my dislike for the tactics used by Hezbollah, Hamas, etc., you can't ignore that. But fighting for freedom, then I'm hella one sided on that topic just like I (or any caring person) would be one-sided on the topic of animal cruelty.

If the wrong target is picked that's human error.:stars: If it's picked on purpose then it's not. A place is bombed based on intel to turns out to be wrong. The bomb can be precision as all get out. Thanks for the long post.:blink:

[MediaSlayer]

"We will sacrifice our lives for..." ok I see that point, and although a valid one, it's a flawed one you shouldn't have brought up. That statement means that they will fight, not civillians, but they meaning hardliners, militants, militias, "organisations" agains the Israeli and die if need be. This is not to be confused with the civillians, kids, mothers, innocent "bystanders" that get killed by precision bombing complimentary of Israel that don't want to fight and give their lives.


Where do you think those hardliners, militants, militias, and "organisations" come from? Do they fall out of the sky? Although many of them are grown men(and women) now, they were once little innocent children, civilians, ect...

The point is this: they are not so different from each other. They get pissed off and decide to be radical, but there was a time I'm sure that they were normal people just like you and me.

I dint click on your links as I am about to go to sleep for the night. I might click on them later though, thank you for pointing out my point was valid :lol:

shirley u cant be serious

[cpt_azad]

"We will sacrifice our lives for..." ok I see that point, and although a valid one, it's a flawed one you shouldn't have brought up. That statement means that they will fight, not civillians, but they meaning hardliners, militants, militias, "organisations" agains the Israeli and die if need be. This is not to be confused with the civillians, kids, mothers, innocent "bystanders" that get killed by precision bombing complimentary of Israel that don't want to fight and give their lives.


Where do you think those hardliners, militants, militias, and "organisations" come from? Do they fall out of the sky? Although many of them are grown men(and women) now, they were once little innocent children, civilians, ect...

The point is this: they are not so different from each other. They get pissed off and decide to be radical, but there was a time I'm sure that they were normal people just like you and me.

I dint click on your links as I am about to go to sleep for the night. I might click on them later though, thank you for pointing out my point was valid :lol:

shirley u cant be serious

By your your logic all Palestinian children are murderers and terrorists, that's a nice thought. So what of the Israeli children, are they too not to some extent (if not greater extent since the Israeli's have the vast amount of weapons and training) murderers too?

@Busy, if it's faulty intel then yes it's human error, but most of these attacks aren't based on faulty intel, if it were they would come out and say it was faulty intel to get the heat off their back. The recent attack that killed 37 children was not condemned by Israel, is that not an intentional attack then?

[cpt_azad]

To all those that think the Israeli's are better than the terrorist they're fighting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fc2ore%2Ecom%2Farchives%2F%3Fitemid%3D1794

This is just one documented instance that was "leaked", there are probably thousands more that have never seen the light of day and even thousands more that weren't documented.

But terrorist act's, suicidal or not, are well documented and released to the public.

[Busyman™]

To all those that think the Israeli's are better than the terrorist they're fighting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fc2ore%2Ecom%2Farchives%2F%3Fitemid%3D1794

This is just one documented instance that was "leaked", there are probably thousands more that have never seen the light of day and even thousands more that weren't documented.

But terrorist act's, suicidal or not, are well documented and released to the public.

Maybe the folks fucking with Israel should stop starting shit.

Who do you think keeps touching off most of the skirmishes?

[MediaSlayer]

By your your logic all Palestinian children are murderers and terrorists, that's a nice thought. So what of the Israeli children, are they too not to some extent (if not greater extent since the Israeli's have the vast amount of weapons and training) murderers too?


My logic was saying that all Palestinian, Iranian, Lebanese, ect... children have the potential to be extreme and violent, and these days that is where the trend seems to be going. The situation in Iraq does not help. I do not support that war for that very reason.

I don't think the Israeli children are in the same situation as far as wanting to die in a heroic way fighting the enemy, I don't think those kind of sacrifice themes appeal to them as with the others in that region. Theirs is probably more of a self defense type urge, as is the case here in the states. The few friends I have in the military dont dream of dying in Iraq for a noble cause. They dream of coming home safe.

[Rat Faced]

Maybe the folks fucking with Israel should stop starting shit.

Who do you think keeps touching off most of the skirmishes?

Actually Israel does as regards to Hezbollah.

The UNIFIL reports have always said there were the odd skirmish, mostly prompted by Israeli Invasion of Lebanese Airspace, which occured "almost daily". Most skirmishes happened around the Shebaa Farms area, which Lebanon still claims.. ie: Occupied Territory (and therefore, as far as Hezbollah are concerned, within Lebanese Territory), or within Lebanon.

There are only 6 countries in the world that count Hezbollah a "Terrorist Organisation". The EU recently told the US to take a run and jump when they were requested to count them as such.

The reasons are:

They have always acted like, and have always maintained they are, a resistance force.

Until this Israeli attack, Hezbollah have always operated inside Labanon and have always attacked only military targets.

They have always condemned attacks by anyone; Islamic or Otherwise, that killed Innocents deliberately. Including 9/11.

They have banned all their members from going to Iraq and condemed all the attacks in Iraq that have not been aimed at occuping forces directly, by which they mean "Military". They have condemned kidnapping of civilians there and called the purpetrators Barbaric and traitors to Islam.


This all started because 2 soldiers were kidnapped on the face of it.. but is it really?

The Hezbollah attack was staged to capture soldiers to use for a prisoner-exchange with Israel, a strategy adopted by both sides in the past. According to Human Rights Watch, targeting and capture of enemy soldiers is allowed under international humanitarian law.

Both Israel and Hezbollah have used this tactic many times in the past against each other, and then negotiated peacefully around the issue with no problems. Indeed, Brigadier General Meir Caliphi recently said the only real activity from Hezbollah was when Israeli planes invaded Lebanese airspace and they fired anti-aircraft guns. Only two civilians sustained minor injuries as a result of the shelling, he said.


'It may go against military logic,' Caliphi admitted, 'but I think that it is important to continue with the policy of restraint. So long as we can keep the quiet here.'

He went on to admit that this was partly because:


They saw that in Jenin we were willing to ravage a refugee camp in order to gain quiet, even if we did not use F-16 aircraft. They know the implications to their region,' he said. The Brigadier General had no qualms about saying that any incursion by Hezbollah could result in an attack on the Lebanon government, and also said Syria could be a target.


There is something that has not been mentioned that is different though, and it has nothing to do with Hezbollah and everything to do with Mossad and Lebanon.


Last month Lebanon's daily newspaper, The Daily Star, reported that in June this year the Lebanese Army's intelligence agency uncovered an Israeli spy cell in Lebanon which had managed to carry out several assassinations across the country. Mahmoud Rafeh, was named as the leader of a 'Mossad-linked terrorist network,' and it was reported that he had admitted carrying out assassinations and spying for Israel. Judicial sources told The Daily Star Rafeh admitted receiving a list of names of Lebanese and Palestinian political figures to be assassinated on orders from Israel.

During interrogation, said The Daily Star report, Rafeh admitted to the killing of Islamic Jihad member Mahmoud Majzoub and his brother Nidal in May. He also claimed the killing of Hezbollah officials Ali Hassan Deeb and Ali Saleh on August 16, 1999 and August 2, 2003, respectively, and that of Jihad Jibril, the son of the leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command leader, Ahmad Jibril, in May 20, 2002. However, he denied any involvement in a string of assassinations in Beirut last year including that of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, and having any knowledge of who was behind the attacks. Before the current war began on July 12, Military Investigating Magistrate Adnan Bolbol had been expected to begin questioning witnesses in the Mossad case in July, sources told The Daily Star.

So just maybe, they just dont want their Agent questioned regarding the Assasination of a certain Prime Minister?

[cpt_azad]

To all those that think the Israeli's are better than the terrorist they're fighting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fc2ore%2Ecom%2Farchives%2F%3Fitemid%3D1794

This is just one documented instance that was "leaked", there are probably thousands more that have never seen the light of day and even thousands more that weren't documented.

But terrorist act's, suicidal or not, are well documented and released to the public.

Maybe the folks fucking with Israel should stop starting shit.

Who do you think keeps touching off most of the skirmishes?

Since your comment was quoted by my video, I'm gonna go ahead and assume you just said that skirmishes are orchestrated by families with kids, nice one.

Most skirmishes are carried out in retaliation to something that Israel had done preceeding the actual skirmish. It's the whole "which came first" argument, we can argue about it for years, and we'd both be right (or wrong).

[Busyman™]

Maybe the folks fucking with Israel should stop starting shit.

Who do you think keeps touching off most of the skirmishes?

Since your comment was quoted by my video, I'm gonna go ahead and assume you just said that skirmishes are orchestrated by families with kids, nice one.

Most skirmishes are carried out in retaliation to something that Israel had done preceeding the actual skirmish. It's the whole "which came first" argument, we can argue about it for years, and we'd both be right (or wrong).

I never clicked your vid, tbh.

To your last, complaints of brutality can't be claimed by either side then, can it?

[cpt_azad]

Since your comment was quoted by my video, I'm gonna go ahead and assume you just said that skirmishes are orchestrated by families with kids, nice one.

Most skirmishes are carried out in retaliation to something that Israel had done preceeding the actual skirmish. It's the whole "which came first" argument, we can argue about it for years, and we'd both be right (or wrong).

I never clicked your vid, tbh.

To your last, complaints of brutality can't be claimed by either side then, can it?

Ah, but that would depend on who's complaining and who is reclaiming? The palestinians? Or the Israelis? Again, that argument arises "which came first, the chicken or the egg". Right or wrong, evil or good, both depends on the point of view of the particular person that is making the argument.