Poll question #2 about Islam

[j2k4]

Is Islam (given it's propagation through immigration, and aversion to assimilation)

an imperialist/expansionist religion/culture?

[MagicNakor]

Islam has a very large spectrum. I imagine to decide on your own, you would have to read the Koran.

:shuriken:

[Skweeky]

Hmmm interesting topic

A while back I saw a documentary featuring Cat Stevens. Apparently he converted to Islam.
The man looked so balanced and at peace with himself that I've gained some respect for Islam.

I think it's got a bad name because there's so many extremist wings of it but I suppose if we look at it on the same scale as Catholicism we can't really say anything.

Only a few hundres years ago Catholics were invading Jerusalem to free the holy land of all sinners and those who died doing that would get rewarded by the heavenly father...

Sounds familiar?

So erm... no, I don't think it is any more imperialist or expansionist than any other religion. It's just a bit younger, that's all

As with any other religion, there is a lot of room for interpretation and there will always be people to use to their advantage.
The message in the Koran is pretty much the same as the one in the Bible or the Tanakh.
'Be kind and love one another'

[vidcc]

Have to agree with sweeky. All religion wishes expansion, so again the question is loaded, the answer has to be yes. all you are doing is singling out one religion as if it were somehow "a special case".

[j2k4]

Have to agree with sweeky. All religion wishes expansion, so again the question is loaded, the answer has to be yes. all you are doing is singling out one religion as if it were somehow "a special case".

What about a religion that promises eventual dominion, and professes subjugation/elimination of any other?

Today's version, BTW, not the medieval one...

[vidcc]

Have to agree with sweeky. All religion wishes expansion, so again the question is loaded, the answer has to be yes. all you are doing is singling out one religion as if it were somehow "a special case".

What about a religion that promises eventual dominion, and professes subjugation/elimination of any other?

Today's version, BTW, not the medieval one... Again that is an extremist stance which you accept to be the norm. As I said the same argument could be made about extremist christians or jews etc. and you are singling out one religion as a special case.

Do you think this must mean all non muslims must be killed? or do you think this means all non muslims should be converted?
Now we know what some of these extremist think...what about "the average muslim"

I think propoganda has won over facts in the westrn worlds view of what islam is about..... the western world thinks islam is the fundamentalists that highjacked the religion, just as probably a great deal of muslims outside of the western world thinks the west is out to get islam.

[j2k4]

Now we know what some of these extremist think...what about "the average muslim"

Well, I don't know about you, but I am terribly over-wrought by the fact "the average Muslim" can't seem to find his voice.

As to the intent of the fanatics, all I can do is go by what they say, and I have no problem understanding that.

[cpt_azad]

Now we know what some of these extremist think...what about "the average muslim"

Well, I don't know about you, but I am terribly over-wrought by the fact "the average Muslim" can't seem to find his voice.

As to the intent of the fanatics, all I can do is go by what they say, and I have no problem understanding that.


So very sad and so very true. I am a muslim, but that's not 100% fact since I'm not religious whatsoever, I'm muslim simply by association, growing up in a Muslim family and whatnot. But not all muslims are like that, just as not all Jews want dead Palestinians, and just as not all republicans support Bush's every move. Each group's majority pushes and reinforces the stereotypes of that particular group, while only a handful stand out and up to bash those stereotypes back to hell from which they came, or so to speak.

[j2k4]

Well, I don't know about you, but I am terribly over-wrought by the fact "the average Muslim" can't seem to find his voice.

As to the intent of the fanatics, all I can do is go by what they say, and I have no problem understanding that.


So very sad and so very true. I am a muslim, but that's not 100% fact since I'm not religious whatsoever, I'm muslim simply by association, growing up in a Muslim family and whatnot. But not all muslims are like that, just as not all Jews want dead Palestinians, and just as not all republicans support Bush's every move. Each group's majority pushes and reinforces the stereotypes of that particular group, while only a handful stand out and up to bash those stereotypes back to hell from which they came, or so to speak.

Now, that was good. :)

[Rat Faced]

Don't the ultra-Orthodox Jews (The ones that wont give normal Jews the time of day) think non-Jews are sub-human?

That's what the Talmud says afterall...

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

My fav though has got to be:
Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell. Which of course is wrong, but is written all over the place..

It should read: whosoever transgresses the words of the Scribes is liable for the death penalty. I think the one above is funnier though, so i'm leaving it there.


The Talmud also says that Jews may Lie to, Steal and Kill non Jews. That it's not a crime..


Every religion has their Fundamentalists.

[Biggles]

The ultra Orthodox position is disturbingly similar to the fundamentalist Muslim - with the one exception that the Muslim might hope you will convert whereas the Orthodox would rather you did not.

As is often the case, likes repel. Some of the most heated political arguments I saw at Uni were not between Left and Right but Left and Left. To be fair the Right and Libertarians had a few spats too. :yup:

I voted Yes as it is a proselytising religion.

[maebach]

So very sad and so very true. I am a muslim, but that's not 100% fact since I'm not religious whatsoever, I'm muslim simply by association, growing up in a Muslim family and whatnot. But not all muslims are like that, just as not all Jews want dead Palestinians, and just as not all republicans support Bush's every move. Each group's majority pushes and reinforces the stereotypes of that particular group, while only a handful stand out and up to bash those stereotypes back to hell from which they came, or so to speak.

Now, that was good. :)


I didnt know azad could type like that that :lol: :lol:

[j2k4]

Don't the ultra-Orthodox Jews (The ones that wont give normal Jews the time of day) think non-Jews are sub-human?

Oh yes, quite right...now that you mention it, I see them standing over there off to the left, right behind the Iranis, and next to the Syrians. ;)

[Rat Faced]

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has described the Jewish Defense League in Congressional testimony as a "violent" and "extremist" group. In a sidebar in its "Terrorism 2000/2001" report, the Bureau said, "The Jewish Defense League has been deemed a right-wing terrorist group." It identified the group in a 1999 terrorism report as the perpetrator of several bombing and arson incidents that took place between 1980 and 1989. Mary Doran, an FBI street agent, described the JDL in 2004 Congressional testimony as "a proscribed terrorist group,"

Like i said... all Religions have their "Fundamentalists"

And what do you call destruction of property and throwing people off their land, just because of their faith? Look at how the bedouin's, as an example, are treated within Israel.

The State of Israel is controlled by the Orthodox Jews... lets see now 20% of the population are non-jews, so give them 2.7% of the Services. And refuse to recognise some groups so they cant even marry without going abroad (for which they'll need special permission or wont be allowed back in).

Of course, if your an Orthodox Jew, you have no problems.

[j2k4]

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has described the Jewish Defense League in Congressional testimony as a "violent" and "extremist" group. In a sidebar in its "Terrorism 2000/2001" report, the Bureau said, "The Jewish Defense League has been deemed a right-wing terrorist group." It identified the group in a 1999 terrorism report as the perpetrator of several bombing and arson incidents that took place between 1980 and 1989. Mary Doran, an FBI street agent, described the JDL in 2004 Congressional testimony as "a proscribed terrorist group,"

Like i said... all Religions have their "Fundamentalists"

And what do you call destruction of property and throwing people off their land, just because of their faith? Look at how the bedouin's, as an example, are treated within Israel.

The State of Israel is controlled by the Orthodox Jews... lets see now 20% of the population are non-jews, so give them 2.7% of the Services. And refuse to recognise some groups so they cant even marry without going abroad (for which they'll need special permission or wont be allowed back in).

Of course, if your an Orthodox Jew, you have no problems.

Hmmm.

Sounds like we ought to attack them, then.

Do you judge these conditions onerous compared to neighboring countries?

Saudi Arabia, perhaps?

BTW-I could throw a few unrelated but similar situations at you, you might be surprised.

Mexico, for one...but I digress...

[Skweeky]

I think maybe the pope not wanting catholics to use condoms or any other kind of contraception is a threat to the whole of Africa and should be considered genocide.

How many have died and are dying because of this 'policy'?

More than died in the towers, I'll tell you that for nothing
So what's the biggest threat here?

The only reason Islam is standing out is because the media wants them to stand out.
After all... the news value of a black child dying of AIDS isn't nearly as spectacular as some idiots trying to kill each other.

[Rat Faced]

You just dont get it do you?

Well, the US is now on its own... because even your pet Poodle has realised he's not even talking for the British Government, never mind its people.


Tony Blair is tonight calling for a total rethink of the approach to the Middle East in a speech which admits that military action in Iraq and Afghanistan had alienated moderate Muslims and undermined the War on Terror.

Source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2295292,00.html)

Its took him 3 years to admit that mind... and its only because he'd lose an election against some down and out picked at random off the street at the moment. :rolleyes:

[j2k4]

I think maybe the pope not wanting catholics to use condoms or any other kind of contraception is a threat to the whole of Africa and should be considered genocide.

How many have died and are dying because of this 'policy'?

More than died in the towers, I'll tell you that for nothing
So what's the biggest threat here?

The only reason Islam is standing out is because the media wants them to stand out.
After all... the news value of a black child dying of AIDS isn't nearly as spectacular as some idiots trying to kill each other.

That last is true, and so long as the "popular" method of helping involves little but throwing money at the problem of AIDS without supplemental counsel is a total waste.

As to the rest, I'll have to disagree-I think Al Jazeera does a fine job of allowing these clowns to label themselves-truth in advertizing, and all that.

I think if the media at large failed on even one occasion to remind it's consumers that UBL is of that particular faith, he'd manage to inform them of their oversight.

They themselves lead with it; for the media to fail to note this would be tantamount to censorship.

[Rat Faced]

In the United States, arson, firebombing and vandalism of abortion clinics, along with harassment of clinic employees and patrons have been cited as examples of terror tactics employed by anti-abortion extremists.

Often the perpetrators have been self-proclaimed Christians.

May I also name:

Christian Identity
Freedomites
Ku Klux Klan
Lords Resistance Army
Westboro Baptist Church
Nagaland Rebels
The National Liberation Front of Tripura
Gods Army


There are Fundamentalists in every religion...

[j2k4]

You just dont get it do you?

Well, the US is now on its own... because even your pet Poodle has realised he's not even talking for the British Government, never mind its people.


Tony Blair is tonight calling for a total rethink of the approach to the Middle East in a speech which admits that military action in Iraq and Afghanistan had alienated moderate Muslims and undermined the War on Terror.

Source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2295292,00.html)

Its took him 3 years to admit that mind... and its only because he'd lose an election against some down and out picked at random off the street at the moment. :rolleyes:

Get what, exactly?

BTW-

You probably won't believe this, but subtract Blair's and the U.K.'s alliance and the we're in precisely the same place we are now.

Since the U.N. couldn't get it's thumb out of it's ass, we were gonna go, coalition or not.

[j2k4]

In the United States, arson, firebombing and vandalism of abortion clinics, along with harassment of clinic employees and patrons have been cited as examples of terror tactics employed by anti-abortion extremists.

Often the perpetrators have been self-proclaimed Christians.


There are Fundamentalists in every religion.

And these are the arguments you use to excuse your "moral equivalence at all costs" line of reasoning?

[Rat Faced]

No, and i added a few by the way, I'm demonstrating that you are picking on one Religion vis a vis "Fundamenalism" and "Terrorism".

Hezbollah, are secular .... this means that it would be quite impossible for them to be Fundamentalist. Fundamentalists believe that there should be no distinction between the State and the Church.

By their very nature, ALL religions are expansionist.

They all tell you to convert others to that religion.

This does not mean they are "Fundamentalist".


Correction: Judaism isn't expansionist.. you can convert to Judaism however you will have to go to them, they wont make it easy for you and try to convert you. This is possibly why there are so few Jews compared to the other 2 Religions with the same base, ie: Christianity and Islam

[j2k4]

No, and i added a few by the way, I'm demonstrating that you are picking on one Religion vis a vis "Fundamenalism" and "Terrorism".

Hezbollah, are secular .... this means that it would be quite impossible for them to be Fundamentalist. Fundamentalists believe that there should be no distinction between the State and the Church.

By their very nature, ALL religions are expansionist.

They all tell you to convert others to that religion.

This does not mean they are "Fundamentalist".


Correction: Judaism isn't expansionist.. you can convert to Judaism however you will have to go to them, they wont make it easy for you and try to convert you. This is possibly why there are so few Jews compared to the other 2 Religions with the same base, ie: Christianity and Islam

Okay.

For the sake of argument I will grant that every religion has a fundamentalist arm, wing, branch, what have you.

So what?

Has the Ku Klux Klan, to use your example, visited it's misbegotten views on, say, South Africa?

Mexico?

Canada?

What borders have they crossed?

[Rat Faced]

Have Hezbollah crossed a border? Seems debatable considering the first reports out of the area...

Have Hamas? Yes.. but they pretty much concentrate their activities in certain areas against the country that is occupying theirs... so fair does, so is their opposition.

Have the Iraqi Insurgents? No, they again consider themselves:
a/ Resistance Fighters against occupation and/or
b/ Fighting for Islam against heretics (sunni v shi'ite)

Have Al Queda.. most definitely, these are "International Terrorists". They are found in our own backyards, as well as in the areas of strife at the moment.


So we have the 4 largest Islamic Terrorist Organisations/Groupings listed.. and only 1 of them regularly cross borders that doesnt involve their own particular conflict. The others are really quite localised. Although I will grant you there are links between Hamas and Al Queda.. but there were and are links between AQ and the Kurds of Iraq too.


So, i'll name a Christian one that did/does too... its only fair after all. .. P.I.R.A. (or as the active part is now Real IRA) and their adversaries UDA and LVF.

Then there is always Epanastatiki Organosi 17 Noemvri and the Basque Seperatists to mention just a couple.. but as they have absolutely nothing to do with religion, i'll leave it at that, except to remind uyou of various "Red Army" and "Red Brigade" organisations around the world... all of which dont hesitate to cross borders.

Of course, its Islamic Terrorism that newsworthy at the moment, so this is all you hear about. Forget the Tamal Tigers in Sri Lanka (as busy as ever) or what's happening in Somalia.. its only Islamic Terrorism thats reported widely...

[Skweeky]

Since the U.N. couldn't get it's thumb out of it's ass, we were gonna go, coalition or not.


So... how does that make you different from any of the countries in the Middle East?

I believe, as I recall correctly, that this whole thing started because you suspected them to be in the possession of WMD's?

Since there was no proof for it, that leads me to conclude this action was taken because you BELIEVED those weapons were there, no matter what the proof said.

Isn't that exactly what all those 'extremist' movements are doing? Fighting for what they believe no matter what anyone else says?

Most of the world believed it was a mistake to go to Iraq in the first place and America kindly chose to ignore that and go ahead anyway. Doesn't that make the entire country extremist?

After all, it is a bit extreme to go to war if everyone else disagrees with it:blink:



Doesn't it annoy you that most Europeans look at the States and see a nation of religous fanatics, snake handling fools, red necks and an ape for a president?

It can't possibly be the case because there's people like you about, but it only took a couple of nutters to create that negative image.

[j2k4]

Given that we scratch what itches us, yes, our current focus omits many of those you mention, but, as a fan of your "footie", if you find yourself engaged in a discussion of your favorite club's chances in the upcoming match, you aren't obligated to take account of the state of the game in Brazil, are you?

In any case, my question was about Islam, and perhaps when the discussion began to wander a bit I might have taken a page or six and drawn some of the distinctions between the M.E. groups you've mentioned, but insofar as they are all arrayed in common cause against the U.S. and Israel (and the coalition), to do so seems to be of at best marginal relevance.

In any case, you have performed that service, so I don't have to.

As an aside...for the longest time, I have had, at the back of my mind and just out of recall, an epigram of Belloc's that I happened to trip over today (wonder of wonders, and a nice surprise), and it has so many tiny and finely nuanced applications I find it could be said with application in about every discussion we've had in the drawing room lately-it goes this way:

Pale Ebenezer thought it wrong to fight;

But roaring Bill, who killed him, thought it right.

For what it's worth...

[j2k4]

Since the U.N. couldn't get it's thumb out of it's ass, we were gonna go, coalition or not.


So... how does that make you different from any of the countries in the Middle East?

I believe, as I recall correctly, that this whole thing started because you suspected them to be in the possession of WMD's?

Since there was no proof for it, that leads me to conclude this action was taken because you BELIEVED those weapons were there, no matter what the proof said.

Isn't that exactly what all those 'extremist' movements are doing? Fighting for what they believe no matter what anyone else says?

Most of the world believed it was a mistake to go to Iraq in the first place and America kindly chose to ignore that and go ahead anyway. Doesn't that make the entire country extremist?

After all, it is a bit extreme to go to war if everyone else disagrees with it:blink:



Doesn't it annoy you that most Europeans look at the States and see a nation of religous fanatics, snake handling fools, red necks and an ape for a president?

It can't possibly be the case because there's people like you about, but it only took a couple of nutters to create that negative image.

I might take your last and apply it to Islam, I think. :)

Yes, in the main, every entity participating in the festivities is doing what it does (and inarguably so) for some reason or felt need, true enough.

To me, though, it is that we are (if we are sentient beings) called upon by loyalties, allegiances, alliances or faiths to determine these things right or wrong, and not waste our time and mental abilities running from that responsibility, or bending over backward or forward in such a way as to avoid judging other humans and their motivations.

I seem to recall, in another current thread, that you have judged your bank to be a den of thieving bastards.

Note, please, that your quarrel, as well as your resulting judgements, have nothing to do with the bank as an institution, but the people who operate it.

By the standards of debate practiced by many here, they should escape your wrath, because (who knows?) they might have a very good reason for having done you over, you see? :)

[Skweeky]

That doesn't count though.

This bank thing involves moi

ergo, my judgement is clouded by emotions.

Besides, the last statement is exactly my point concerning islam.
I don't believe the religion as a whole is what it's been made to look.
But anyone not having some mental point of view is not heard because it's not spectacular enough

[j2k4]

That doesn't count though.

This bank thing involves moi

ergo, my judgement is clouded by emotions.

Besides, the last statement is exactly my point concerning islam.
I don't believe the religion as a whole is what it's been made to look.
But anyone not having some mental point of view is not heard because it's not spectacular enough

Not sure I understand that last.

As to the individual vs. the collective, it seems the entirety of what we have come to term "fundamentalist Islam" suffers an over-emotional view of Israel and the west, no?

Think for a moment about a scenario in which we leave the M.E., and take Israel with us...

According to their rhetoric, they're duty-bound to follow us to the ends of the earth to continue their "jihad"-whether this would actually happen?

Well, Hell-they've got cells here already, right?

Not to mention that, if we did leave, they'd go right on fighting each other over the colloquial issues that undo their regional politics.

They will do what they say they are born to do.

[thewizeard]

I am sure they do..in fact I think that is the basis of their religion.

I heard on the news that one of Al-Qaeda leaders recently suggested that all territory that was formerly a Muslim conquered country, should be retaken ( like Spain) ..I wonder if we should retake all the land that Alexander the Great once conquered.

[Skweeky]

Does that mean we have to give back Belgium to the Netherlands, France and Germany? :cry:

[tdao]

Not more than the Jewish or Christians

[thewizeard]

Does that mean we have to give back Belgium to the Netherlands, France and Germany? :cry:

Well...you could begin with Vlamingen :)

[Skweeky]

We have chased the dutch out of our country with pots and pans, so we earned it fair and square :snooty:

[Mivaro]

We have chased the dutch out of our country with pots and pans, so we earned it fair and square :snooty:


i'm not too sure we want Belgium back, too much trouble with those Belgians.......

[vidcc]

speaking of "an imperialist/expansionist religion/culture"
Five Republicans and one Democrat seeking the open 5th Congressional District seat fielded questions on abortion, campaign integrity and the war in Iraq. (http://daily.gazette.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=VGhlR2F6ZXR0ZS8yMDA2LzA4LzAxI0FyMDEwMDA=&Mode=HTML&Locale=english-skin-custom)



Rayburn, a retired Air Force major general, framed several answers in terms of what “we as Christians” would do. As he has throughout the campaign, he described the war in Iraq as a battle against radical Islam and said establishing a democracy in Iraq would send a message.

“That will open up hope within these countries for the gospel of Jesus Christ to change hearts,” he said.

[Biggles]

speaking of "an imperialist/expansionist religion/culture"
Five Republicans and one Democrat seeking the open 5th Congressional District seat fielded questions on abortion, campaign integrity and the war in Iraq. (http://daily.gazette.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=VGhlR2F6ZXR0ZS8yMDA2LzA4LzAxI0FyMDEwMDA=&Mode=HTML&Locale=english-skin-custom)



Rayburn, a retired Air Force major general, framed several answers in terms of what “we as Christians” would do. As he has throughout the campaign, he described the war in Iraq as a battle against radical Islam and said establishing a democracy in Iraq would send a message.

“That will open up hope within these countries for the gospel of Jesus Christ to change hearts,” he said.

So they let Shia Clerics run the place and let the militias chase the few remaining Christians out - what a cunning strategy :blink:

Saddam had an Iraqi Christian as his deputy - some going to make him look the more tolerant one.

[vidcc]

Fortunately, for the muslims at least, Bush and cheney are in charge...so they have no real worries :P

http://www.wag.caltech.edu/home/jamil/pinky2.jpg
Cheney and bush responding to critics that americans couldn't point to their own country on a map

[j2k4]

speaking of "an imperialist/expansionist religion/culture"
Five Republicans and one Democrat seeking the open 5th Congressional District seat fielded questions on abortion, campaign integrity and the war in Iraq. (http://daily.gazette.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=VGhlR2F6ZXR0ZS8yMDA2LzA4LzAxI0FyMDEwMDA=&Mode=HTML&Locale=english-skin-custom)



Rayburn, a retired Air Force major general, framed several answers in terms of what “we as Christians” would do. As he has throughout the campaign, he described the war in Iraq as a battle against radical Islam and said establishing a democracy in Iraq would send a message.

“That will open up hope within these countries for the gospel of Jesus Christ to change hearts,” he said.

Do you fear his winning?

Should he be silenced?

Perhaps disqualified, somehow?

[Skweeky]

We have chased the dutch out of our country with pots and pans, so we earned it fair and square :snooty:


i'm not too sure we want Belgium back, too much trouble with those Belgians.......


I'm sure we would get on fine.
You lot got the paedophile party, we got Dutroux and consorts :sickhumor:

[vidcc]

Do you fear his winning?

Should he be silenced?

Perhaps disqualified, somehow?
how do you think what he spouts will go down with muslims?

doesn't he sound very similar to the "muslims" you seem so concerned about?

http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1406405&postcount=4

[lynx]

Fortunately, for the muslims at least, Bush and cheney are in charge...so they have no real worries :P

http://www.wag.caltech.edu/home/jamil/pinky2.jpg
Cheney and bush responding to critics that americans couldn't point to their own country on a mapOn the same note, Arnie thinks Blair should get the title role in Terminator 4.

Think about that, the title role is actually a soulless robot, controlled at a distance by an evil regime who's endgame is the destruction of mankind.

Talk about typecast. :)

[j2k4]

Do you fear his winning?

Should he be silenced?

Perhaps disqualified, somehow?
how do you think what he spouts will go down with muslims?

It doesn't matter a whit, since he won't get elected by leading that way; we both know this...so:

What is your point?


doesn't he sound very similar to the "muslims" you seem so concerned about?

No.

The Muslims I "seem so concerned about" aren't making any sound at all-that is what concerns me.


http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1406405&postcount=4

I don't know why you included the link.

[vidcc]

It doesn't matter a whit, since he won't get elected by leading that way; we both know this...so:

What is your point?




"Does Islam harbor imperialist/expansionist aspirations?"

To which we pointed out that all religions do and also that your view of islam is what you see in the media, you just see the extremist.....they see our extremists......
If you think they are anti christianity could it be because they are fed the anti christian propaganda, just as we are fed anti muslim propaganda......



No.

The Muslims I "seem so concerned about" aren't making any sound at all-that is what concerns me. But you argued that the ones not making a sound are "supporting" the extremists http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showthread.php?p=1406473#post1406473





. All religion wishes expansion, so again the question is loaded, the answer has to be yes. all you are doing is singling out one religion as if it were somehow "a special case".

Edit: don't complain about quoting from the other post...the subject is the same