Firefighters Face Suspension

[bigboab]

Nine firefighters in Glasgow are in trouble for refusing to staff a fire-safety booth at the recent gay pride festival.
The firefighters from the Cowcaddens Fire Station face a disciplinary hearing at Strathclyde Fire and Rescue headquarters. They could end up getting fired.
Members of the group complained that the task would be embarrassing or that it violated their moral values.


I just heard on the news that these firemen have been disciplined for refusing to carry out orders. When is all this P C crap going to end. What do you think about this incident?


P.S. I thought part of a firefighters remit was to prevent arson.:whistling

[sArA]

I think that they should be prepared to do their jobs (which I assume includes promoting awareness) regardless of the sexual/racial or other 'minority' status of the groups they are supposed to be serving.

Their excuses are no different from them saying that to participate in a similar awareness/safety campaign at an event at which the majority of attendees are black, and being concerned that they will be tarred with the same brush.

It is biggoted and totally without justification, I think they should be severely disciplined.

If firefighters are allowed to pick and choose where and for whom they will fight fires, perhaps before attending a house fire, they could ask if there is anyone gay living there, just in case they are seen popping round a poofter's house and therefore at risk of embarrassment when in the baths after their blokey rugby match on a Sunday morning.

OH.......Hi there BB...long time no see:wave:

[vidcc]

Members of the group complained that the task would be embarrassing or that it violated their moral values.



Of all the things that a firefighter has to deal with, they get "embarrassed" over this :huh: And as for violating their "moral values", what part of manning a fire safety booth is immoral? Part of their job is safety awareness, no matter who they are making "aware".
I think they deserve to be reprimanded. The fire service is a discipline service and if they make a conscious choice to refuse orders then they accept the consequences.

That said I think the thing I find oddest about this is that it is firefighters. The same brave people that daily risk their lives to save others and their property. The same brave people that do this dangerous job for financial reward that is just a fraction of their worth............Sure I understand that sometimes they will have to endure the odd "greasy pole" comment and I understand they may not like it, but compared to the horrors they endure almost every duty day................. It just doesn't add up :unsure:

[bigboab]

I think that they should be prepared to do their jobs (which I assume includes promoting awareness) regardless of the sexual/racial or other 'minority' status of the groups they are supposed to be serving.

Their excuses are no different from them saying that to participate in a similar awareness/safety campaign at an event at which the majority of attendees are black, and being concerned that they will be tarred with the same brush.

It is biggoted and totally without justification, I think they should be severely disciplined.

If firefighters are allowed to pick and choose where and for whom they will fight fires, perhaps before attending a house fire, they could ask if there is anyone gay living there, just in case they are seen popping round a poofter's house and therefore at risk of embarrassment when in the baths after their blokey rugby match on a Sunday morning.

OH.......Hi there BB...long time no see:wave:

Hi Sara.:)

They were ordered to hand out leaflets at a gay parade. If I was a fireman I would have refused to do it. Incidentally, they are being defended by their union.

[Biggles]

I think they should be severely disciplined.



Don't know why but I have a disturbing mental picture of Geiorge Michael in leather. :ph34r:

Part of their job is to hand out safety leaflets at public functions. Would they be allowed to refuse on the grounds that it was a Catholic function or a Protestant one? Should they be allowed to be arbitrars of who does and does not receive these leaflets or should all fire safety stalls be scrapped as it is all too difficult?

On the other hand surely management could have handled this better and obtained volunteers rather than try to press gang individuals.

Hi Boab

[bigboab]

I think they should be severely disciplined.



Don't know why but I have a disturbing mental picture of Geiorge Michael in leather. :ph34r:

Part of their job is to hand out safety leaflets at public functions. Would they be allowed to refuse on the grounds that it was a Catholic function or a Protestant one? Should they be allowed to be arbitrars of who does and does not receive these leaflets or should all fire safety stalls be scrapped as it is all too difficult?
Too much info0rmation.:rolleyes:

Hi Biggles.:)

I also think it could have been handled better. They could have paid volunteers to hand them out instead of paying firemen £25 an hour to do it.

On the other hand surely management could have handled this better and obtained volunteers rather than try to press gang individuals.

Hi Boab

[Snee]

Gay pride festival?


As in one of those thingies with possibly half-naked men, parading, dancing and getting drunk?

Yeah, that sounds great, having to stand in the middle of one of those.
It should be their civic duty. And if someone hits on them, that's a bonus.


When it's not a matter of life and death, I think they should have merited enough respect for the sacrifices they do, or at least are willing to do, to have a say in whether they want to attend what's essentially PR-crap dreamt up by someone higher up.

[Busyman™]

I think that they should be prepared to do their jobs (which I assume includes promoting awareness) regardless of the sexual/racial or other 'minority' status of the groups they are supposed to be serving.

Their excuses are no different from them saying that to participate in a similar awareness/safety campaign at an event at which the majority of attendees are black, and being concerned that they will be tarred with the same brush.

It is biggoted and totally without justification, I think they should be severely disciplined.

If firefighters are allowed to pick and choose where and for whom they will fight fires, perhaps before attending a house fire, they could ask if there is anyone gay living there, just in case they are seen popping round a poofter's house and therefore at risk of embarrassment when in the baths after their blokey rugby match on a Sunday morning.

OH.......Hi there BB...long time no see:wave:

I understand mostly what your saying sArA but how could they be mistakenly tarred with the same brush if the attendees were black.:blink:

If I was manning a booth that's one thing. If I had to walk around handing out leaflets, I might have refused as well. Either way I wouldn't have wanted to be there.

Was there something on the books saying that firefighters staff gay pride festivals and furthermore why would there be? There was a symposium about telecommunications equipment in Virginia awhiles back and a firefighting booth was not present among the fiber-optics booths.:ermm:

Now a firefighter refusing to their job, ya know, fight fires, deserves the firation.

edit: Damn, didn't see SnnY's pawst. Right-on.

[DanB]

They were ordered to hand out leaflets at a gay parade. If I was a fireman I would have refused to do it. Incidentally, they are being defended by their union.

why would that be? :unsure:


Incidentally I was defended by my union after my work sacked me for gross misconduct for being arrested for selling drugs. Doesn't make it right though does it?

[bigboab]

They were ordered to hand out leaflets at a gay parade. If I was a fireman I would have refused to do it. Incidentally, they are being defended by their union.

why would that be? :unsure:


Incidentally I was defended by my union after my work sacked me for gross misconduct for being arrested for selling drugs. Doesn't make it right though does it?

Because their union thinks that they are being wrongly disciplined. I was only pointing out this fact in case someone asked 'what is their Union doing about it?'

[Agrajag]

I think that they should be prepared to do their jobs (which I assume includes promoting awareness) regardless of the sexual/racial or other 'minority' status of the groups they are supposed to be serving.

Their excuses are no different from them saying that to participate in a similar awareness/safety campaign at an event at which the majority of attendees are black, and being concerned that they will be tarred with the same brush.

It is biggoted and totally without justification, I think they should be severely disciplined.

If firefighters are allowed to pick and choose where and for whom they will fight fires, perhaps before attending a house fire, they could ask if there is anyone gay living there, just in case they are seen popping round a poofter's house and therefore at risk of embarrassment when in the baths after their blokey rugby match on a Sunday morning.

OH.......Hi there BB...long time no see:wave:

If attending events and handing out leaflets is part of their remit then I agree with you.

However the argument is not as straightforward as some chaps are making it. It's all very well saying that they should be made to attend any rally whether it be Catholic, Protestant, Black, Gay, whatever.

What if it was a BNP rally, or an anti-semitic gathering, or an anti-gay one. Should they still be forced to attend. What if it's something that the individual has a genuine reason to object to. Should a gay fireman be forced to hand out leaflet's at an anti-gay rally.

You chaps are just so PC.

[DanB]

why would that be? :unsure:


Incidentally I was defended by my union after my work sacked me for gross misconduct for being arrested for selling drugs. Doesn't make it right though does it?

Because their union thinks that they are being wrongly disciplined. I was only pointing out this fact in case someone asked 'what is their Union doing about it?'

Thanks for the effort then. :yup:

[Agrajag]

Because their union thinks that they are being wrongly disciplined. I was only pointing out this fact in case someone asked 'what is their Union doing about it?'

Thanks for the effort then. :yup:

I would expect the Union to defend you in such circumstances Dan. The Union should be the work equivalent of your Mam.

[DanB]

I would expect the Union to defend you in such circumstances Dan. The Union should be the work equivalent of your Mam.

You mean it doesn't care what you've done it still wants to protect you? :unsure:

[j2k4]

The decision to promote fire safety at any function is made at the administrative rather than the operational level.

I think that in light of any objection from below, these administrators should have been willing to man the booth instead of the fire-fighters themselves; after all, though I have never known a fireman, professional or volunteer, who wasn't supremely qualified to expound on fire safety, it only stands to reason that an administrator would be at least as good, if not better than, the boots.

It should not have been allowed to become an issue requiring disciplinary action.

Now, if the firemen had deigned to officially protest the parade, suggesting they'd rather not attend fires wherein gay people needed saving, well...

[Agrajag]

I would expect the Union to defend you in such circumstances Dan. The Union should be the work equivalent of your Mam.

You mean it doesn't care what you've done it still wants to protect you? :unsure:

That's the point, someone who will always take your side, even if you are a cunt. What they can't defend they will mitigate.

[Agrajag]

It should not have been allowed to become an issue requiring disciplinary action.


Fixed.

[Busyman™]

You mean it doesn't care what you've done it still wants to protect you? :unsure:

The union represents folks in the union so yes.

It's the bad thing about unions. I've seen many folk get their job back that clearly didn't deserve it.

In this case though, I think the firefighters are probably in the right.

[j2k4]

It should not have been allowed to become an issue requiring disciplinary action.


Fixed.

Thanxed.

[bigboab]

Just an update.

The fireman concerned have been disciplined and 'forced' to attend 'training' courses. One of the them was a section commander who was demoted and stands to lose £5000 per annum.:(

Some of them stated that they were devout Catholics and it was against their religion to carry out this 'task'. IMO they were entitled to do this and should be commended, not disciplined.

I wonder, in todays political climate, if one of them had been a devout Muslim and refused to carry out this 'task, would the same disciplinary procedures have been carried out?

[j2k4]

Some of them stated that they were devout Catholics and it was against their religion to carry out this 'task'. IMO they were entitled to do this and should be commended, not disciplined.

Well, if not commended, certainly not disciplined.

I wonder, in todays political climate, if one of them had been a devout Muslim and refused to carry out this 'task, would the same disciplinary procedures have been carried out?

Quite probably not.

Islam is not a Christian religion, and as such is off-limits.

[truetejas]

OK, so the point is that the firefighters refuse to educate a particular class of people in fire prevention, any notion of public service notwithstnanding. And their union supports their refusal.

Seems like a weak argument when public safety is the primary reason any fire department exists in the first place.

[MagicNakor]

Some of them stated that they were devout Catholics and it was against their religion to carry out this 'task'. IMO they were entitled to do this and should be commended, not disciplined.

How is that any different than the pharmacist or physician who refuses to give out birth control because the woman is unmarried, citing religious beliefs?

:shuriken:

[bigboab]

Some of them stated that they were devout Catholics and it was against their religion to carry out this 'task'. IMO they were entitled to do this and should be commended, not disciplined.

How is that any different than the pharmacist or physician who refuses to give out birth control because the woman is unmarried, citing religious beliefs?

:shuriken:

Because that is part of a Physician or Pharmacists job. They are aware of that before they took the job on. In the firemens case I would be willing to bet that their remit does not include doing the task they were asked to carry out. As I am sure we will find out when the case goes to appeal.

[Busyman™]

OK, so the point is that the firefighters refuse to educate a particular class of people in fire prevention, any notion of public service notwithstnanding. And their union supports their refusal.

Seems like a weak argument when public safety is the primary reason any fire department exists in the first place.

Who says it's the firefighter's job to go any and every function to educate folks on fire prevention? That'd be pretty fucked to lose a firefighter cos he didn't man a flamestation and hand out leaflets.

Whoever ordered those firefighters to be there should have subbed themselves in. Many firefighters (in my area) volunteer to do the work of firefighting.

I bet if the firefighters were at a county fair and some gays requested info on fire prevention that they wouldn't have refused. It wasn't simply the people, it was the setting.

[MagicNakor]

Because that is part of a Physician or Pharmacists job. They are aware of that before they took the job on. In the firemens case I would be willing to bet that their remit does not include doing the task they were asked to carry out. As I am sure we will find out when the case goes to appeal.

I don't know about the departments elsewhere, but part of the firefighter's job here includes prevention education, and they tend to be at functions that aren't necessarily related to firefighting. Education is part of their job.


Who says it's the firefighter's job to go any and every function to educate folks on fire prevention? That'd be pretty fucked to lose a firefighter cos he didn't man a flamestation and hand out leaflets.

Whoever ordered those firefighters to be there should have subbed themselves in. Many firefighters (in my area) volunteer to do the work of firefighting.

I bet if the firefighters were at a county fair and some gays requested info on fire prevention that they wouldn't have refused. It wasn't simply the people, it was the setting.

As I said above, the department's job here also includes prevention education. I don't know if they go to every function the city has, as I certainly don't go to every function the city has, but at anything with a sizable amount of people they tend to have a booth or a truck (or both). They aren't a volunteer force here, so I imagine that where they appear is somewhat dictated by the city, as they are officially city employees (to some extent).

:shuriken:

[bigboab]

The plot thickens.:ph34r: Now we have a Christian arrested(albeit an alleged bampot) at a Gay Mardi-Gras for distributing leaflets that quote anti homosexual extracts from the Bible.
The Homosexuals are making this a religious concern if they are calling it a Mardi-Gras or do they not realize the connotations of Mardi-Gras?

http://www.mediawatchwatch.org.uk/?p=559.

I think I will start up a new group called the Normal Minority.:lol: Wait a minute... they might not let me in.:ph34r:

[Busyman™]

I don't know about the departments elsewhere, but part of the firefighter's job here includes prevention education, and they tend to be at functions that aren't necessarily related to firefighting. Education is part of their job.


Who says it's the firefighter's job to go any and every function to educate folks on fire prevention? That'd be pretty fucked to lose a firefighter cos he didn't man a flamestation and hand out leaflets.

Whoever ordered those firefighters to be there should have subbed themselves in. Many firefighters (in my area) volunteer to do the work of firefighting.

I bet if the firefighters were at a county fair and some gays requested info on fire prevention that they wouldn't have refused. It wasn't simply the people, it was the setting.

As I said above, the department's job here also includes prevention education. I don't know if they go to every function the city has, as I certainly don't go to every function the city has, but at anything with a sizable amount of people they tend to have a booth or a truck (or both). They aren't a volunteer force here, so I imagine that where they appear is somewhat dictated by the city, as they are officially city employees (to some extent).

:shuriken:

So it's part of job to set up flamestations and hand out leaflets. When you dictated by the city you mean by a person who doesn't have to be at said function. Gotcha.

[MagicNakor]

It's part of the job here, yup.

:shuriken:

[vidcc]

Because that is part of a Physician or Pharmacists job. They are aware of that before they took the job on. In the firemens case I would be willing to bet that their remit does not include doing the task they were asked to carry out. As I am sure we will find out when the case goes to appeal.



A spokesman said: "The nine now accept that they should have performed their duties. Their refusal was a fundamental breach of their core responsibilities."

The nine firefighters are based at Cowcaddens and were asked to distribute community safety advice to people attending the Pride Scotia festival in George Square on 24 June.

The fire service spokesman said: "Firefighters cannot, and will not, pick and choose to whom they offer fire safety advice.

"Strathclyde Fire and Rescue has a responsibility to protect every one of the 2.3m people it serves, irrespective of race, religion or sexuality."
source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5301334.stm)


Job description

Firefighters make an area safer by minimising the risks, plus the social and economic costs, of fire and other hazards. They rescue people and property from all types of accident and disaster; only one in five calls, on average, is specifically for help at a fire.

Acting and advising on all matters relating to the protection of life and property from fire and other risks, firefighters also promote fire safety and enforce fire safety standards in public and commercial premises. Lectures, exercises, practice drills and other forms of training are an integral and continual part of the job.
Typical work activities

Firefighters work mainly as part of a six person crew. Typical activities include:

* attending emergency incidents: fires; road accidents; floods; bomb incidents; spillages of dangerous substances; and rail and air crashes;
* rescuing trapped people and animals;
* minimising distress and suffering, including giving first aid before the ambulance crew arrives;
* ensuring your own and others' personal safety at all times;
* dealing with unforeseen circumstances as they arise; thinking and responding quickly;
* cleaning up and checking the site after dealing with an incident;
* taking the time to become familiar with local streets, roads and buildings around your own and nearby fire stations in order to respond to emergency calls with the utmost speed and efficiency;
* inspecting and maintaining your appliance (fire engine) and its equipment, assisting in the testing of fire hydrants and checking emergency water supplies;
* doing drills, physical training and taking part in training sessions on techniques, use of equipment and related matters;
* maintaining a level of physical fitness necessary to carry out all the duties of a firefighter;
* educating and informing the public to help promote fire safety, eg giving talks in schools and to local organisations.

For the fire officer in charge, additional activities will include:

* assessing situations quickly and deciding on the best course of action;
* directing the crew;
* writing full incident reports. source (http://www.prospects.ac.uk/cms/ShowPage/Home_page/Explore_types_of_jobs/Types_of_Job/p!eipaL?state=showocc&pageno=1&idno=203)


Nature and Scope of Job

The Operational Firefighter must, as part of operational duties, endeavour to save lives, carry out humanitarian services as necessary and protect property; these duties can be summarised as:

• attending and dealing with incidents involving fire.
• attending to incidents such as road traffic accidents, or similar, and to extricate victims or casualties and render the scene safe from further risk of fire.
• instigating protective measures to safeguard members of the public from hazards resulting from dangerous buildings or structures, as required.
• mitigating the effects of damage to property as a result of freak or exceptional climatic conditions, if safe to do so.
• prevent the suffering to and effect the rescue of animals trapped by fire or other miscellaneous cause.
• providing physical assistance and rescue skills to aid other emergency services at civil disasters or other major incidents.
• assist authorities at incidents involving on site hazardous substances or those in transportation and protect the public from the effects of those substances as part of routine service duties.
• carry out responsibilities in connection with Fire Safety, as directed by Brigade Policy.
• carry out responsibilities in connection with Community Safety, as directed by Brigade Policy.
• complete all relevant paperwork associated with an Operational Firefighter's duties including maintenance of Brigade records.
• maintain standards of dress and personal appearance as required by Brigade Policy, reflecting the proper image of a uniformed service.
• maintain a level of fitness in accordance with Brigade medical standards and Home Office Regulations covering Operational Firefighters.
• carry out inspections of property and report of risks under the Fire Services Act 2004.
• check, test and maintain equipment carried on appliances and record results in Station Records.
• inspect and test fire hydrants in accordance with Brigade policy.
• host and guide members of the public visiting Fire Service premises.
• during periods of agreed availability to attend the designated fire station for additional training to specific maintenance tasks or carry out routine duties, as directed by the Supervisory Officer. source (http://www.rbfrs.co.uk/workingforus_retained_job_description.html)

It's part of their job.

The task was to promote safety, not to pass judgement on the lifestyle of the audience.

[Busyman™]

A spokesman said: "The nine now accept that they should have performed their duties. Their refusal was a fundamental breach of their core responsibilities."

The nine firefighters are based at Cowcaddens and were asked to distribute community safety advice to people attending the Pride Scotia festival in George Square on 24 June.

The fire service spokesman said: "Firefighters cannot, and will not, pick and choose to whom they offer fire safety advice.

"Strathclyde Fire and Rescue has a responsibility to protect every one of the 2.3m people it serves, irrespective of race, religion or sexuality."
source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5301334.stm)


Job description

Firefighters make an area safer by minimising the risks, plus the social and economic costs, of fire and other hazards. They rescue people and property from all types of accident and disaster; only one in five calls, on average, is specifically for help at a fire.

Acting and advising on all matters relating to the protection of life and property from fire and other risks, firefighters also promote fire safety and enforce fire safety standards in public and commercial premises. Lectures, exercises, practice drills and other forms of training are an integral and continual part of the job.
Typical work activities

Firefighters work mainly as part of a six person crew. Typical activities include:

* attending emergency incidents: fires; road accidents; floods; bomb incidents; spillages of dangerous substances; and rail and air crashes;
* rescuing trapped people and animals;
* minimising distress and suffering, including giving first aid before the ambulance crew arrives;
* ensuring your own and others' personal safety at all times;
* dealing with unforeseen circumstances as they arise; thinking and responding quickly;
* cleaning up and checking the site after dealing with an incident;
* taking the time to become familiar with local streets, roads and buildings around your own and nearby fire stations in order to respond to emergency calls with the utmost speed and efficiency;
* inspecting and maintaining your appliance (fire engine) and its equipment, assisting in the testing of fire hydrants and checking emergency water supplies;
* doing drills, physical training and taking part in training sessions on techniques, use of equipment and related matters;
* maintaining a level of physical fitness necessary to carry out all the duties of a firefighter;
* educating and informing the public to help promote fire safety, eg giving talks in schools and to local organisations.

For the fire officer in charge, additional activities will include:

* assessing situations quickly and deciding on the best course of action;
* directing the crew;
* writing full incident reports. source (http://www.prospects.ac.uk/cms/ShowPage/Home_page/Explore_types_of_jobs/Types_of_Job/p!eipaL?state=showocc&pageno=1&idno=203)


Nature and Scope of Job

The Operational Firefighter must, as part of operational duties, endeavour to save lives, carry out humanitarian services as necessary and protect property; these duties can be summarised as:

• attending and dealing with incidents involving fire.
• attending to incidents such as road traffic accidents, or similar, and to extricate victims or casualties and render the scene safe from further risk of fire.
• instigating protective measures to safeguard members of the public from hazards resulting from dangerous buildings or structures, as required.
• mitigating the effects of damage to property as a result of freak or exceptional climatic conditions, if safe to do so.
• prevent the suffering to and effect the rescue of animals trapped by fire or other miscellaneous cause.
• providing physical assistance and rescue skills to aid other emergency services at civil disasters or other major incidents.
• assist authorities at incidents involving on site hazardous substances or those in transportation and protect the public from the effects of those substances as part of routine service duties.
• carry out responsibilities in connection with Fire Safety, as directed by Brigade Policy.
• carry out responsibilities in connection with Community Safety, as directed by Brigade Policy.
• complete all relevant paperwork associated with an Operational Firefighter's duties including maintenance of Brigade records.
• maintain standards of dress and personal appearance as required by Brigade Policy, reflecting the proper image of a uniformed service.
• maintain a level of fitness in accordance with Brigade medical standards and Home Office Regulations covering Operational Firefighters.
• carry out inspections of property and report of risks under the Fire Services Act 2004.
• check, test and maintain equipment carried on appliances and record results in Station Records.
• inspect and test fire hydrants in accordance with Brigade policy.
• host and guide members of the public visiting Fire Service premises.
• during periods of agreed availability to attend the designated fire station for additional training to specific maintenance tasks or carry out routine duties, as directed by the Supervisory Officer. source (http://www.rbfrs.co.uk/workingforus_retained_job_description.html)

It's part of their job.

The task was to promote safety, not to pass judgement on the lifestyle of the audience.

Well there we have it.

[DanB]

A spokesman said: "The nine now accept that they should have performed their duties. Their refusal was a fundamental breach of their core responsibilities."

The nine firefighters are based at Cowcaddens and were asked to distribute community safety advice to people attending the Pride Scotia festival in George Square on 24 June.

The fire service spokesman said: "Firefighters cannot, and will not, pick and choose to whom they offer fire safety advice.

"Strathclyde Fire and Rescue has a responsibility to protect every one of the 2.3m people it serves, irrespective of race, religion or sexuality."
source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5301334.stm)


Job description

Firefighters make an area safer by minimising the risks, plus the social and economic costs, of fire and other hazards. They rescue people and property from all types of accident and disaster; only one in five calls, on average, is specifically for help at a fire.

Acting and advising on all matters relating to the protection of life and property from fire and other risks, firefighters also promote fire safety and enforce fire safety standards in public and commercial premises. Lectures, exercises, practice drills and other forms of training are an integral and continual part of the job.
Typical work activities

Firefighters work mainly as part of a six person crew. Typical activities include:

* attending emergency incidents: fires; road accidents; floods; bomb incidents; spillages of dangerous substances; and rail and air crashes;
* rescuing trapped people and animals;
* minimising distress and suffering, including giving first aid before the ambulance crew arrives;
* ensuring your own and others' personal safety at all times;
* dealing with unforeseen circumstances as they arise; thinking and responding quickly;
* cleaning up and checking the site after dealing with an incident;
* taking the time to become familiar with local streets, roads and buildings around your own and nearby fire stations in order to respond to emergency calls with the utmost speed and efficiency;
* inspecting and maintaining your appliance (fire engine) and its equipment, assisting in the testing of fire hydrants and checking emergency water supplies;
* doing drills, physical training and taking part in training sessions on techniques, use of equipment and related matters;
* maintaining a level of physical fitness necessary to carry out all the duties of a firefighter;
* educating and informing the public to help promote fire safety, eg giving talks in schools and to local organisations.

For the fire officer in charge, additional activities will include:

* assessing situations quickly and deciding on the best course of action;
* directing the crew;
* writing full incident reports. source (http://www.prospects.ac.uk/cms/ShowPage/Home_page/Explore_types_of_jobs/Types_of_Job/p!eipaL?state=showocc&pageno=1&idno=203)


Nature and Scope of Job

The Operational Firefighter must, as part of operational duties, endeavour to save lives, carry out humanitarian services as necessary and protect property; these duties can be summarised as:

• attending and dealing with incidents involving fire.
• attending to incidents such as road traffic accidents, or similar, and to extricate victims or casualties and render the scene safe from further risk of fire.
• instigating protective measures to safeguard members of the public from hazards resulting from dangerous buildings or structures, as required.
• mitigating the effects of damage to property as a result of freak or exceptional climatic conditions, if safe to do so.
• prevent the suffering to and effect the rescue of animals trapped by fire or other miscellaneous cause.
• providing physical assistance and rescue skills to aid other emergency services at civil disasters or other major incidents.
• assist authorities at incidents involving on site hazardous substances or those in transportation and protect the public from the effects of those substances as part of routine service duties.
• carry out responsibilities in connection with Fire Safety, as directed by Brigade Policy.
• carry out responsibilities in connection with Community Safety, as directed by Brigade Policy.
• complete all relevant paperwork associated with an Operational Firefighter's duties including maintenance of Brigade records.
• maintain standards of dress and personal appearance as required by Brigade Policy, reflecting the proper image of a uniformed service.
• maintain a level of fitness in accordance with Brigade medical standards and Home Office Regulations covering Operational Firefighters.
• carry out inspections of property and report of risks under the Fire Services Act 2004.
• check, test and maintain equipment carried on appliances and record results in Station Records.
• inspect and test fire hydrants in accordance with Brigade policy.
• host and guide members of the public visiting Fire Service premises.
• during periods of agreed availability to attend the designated fire station for additional training to specific maintenance tasks or carry out routine duties, as directed by the Supervisory Officer. source (http://www.rbfrs.co.uk/workingforus_retained_job_description.html)

It's part of their job.

The task was to promote safety, not to pass judgement on the lifestyle of the audience.

so spin on that BB

[JPaul]

Nicely posted vidcc, good points well presented.

It was part of their job, they refused to do it, they were disciplined. That, as they say, seems to be that.

Their Union will of course defend them, which is also totally appropriate.

[bigboab]

source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5301334.stm)


Job description

Firefighters make an area safer by minimising the risks, plus the social and economic costs, of fire and other hazards. They rescue people and property from all types of accident and disaster; only one in five calls, on average, is specifically for help at a fire.

Acting and advising on all matters relating to the protection of life and property from fire and other risks, firefighters also promote fire safety and enforce fire safety standards in public and commercial premises. Lectures, exercises, practice drills and other forms of training are an integral and continual part of the job.
Typical work activities

Firefighters work mainly as part of a six person crew. Typical activities include:

* attending emergency incidents: fires; road accidents; floods; bomb incidents; spillages of dangerous substances; and rail and air crashes;
* rescuing trapped people and animals;
* minimising distress and suffering, including giving first aid before the ambulance crew arrives;
* ensuring your own and others' personal safety at all times;
* dealing with unforeseen circumstances as they arise; thinking and responding quickly;
* cleaning up and checking the site after dealing with an incident;
* taking the time to become familiar with local streets, roads and buildings around your own and nearby fire stations in order to respond to emergency calls with the utmost speed and efficiency;
* inspecting and maintaining your appliance (fire engine) and its equipment, assisting in the testing of fire hydrants and checking emergency water supplies;
* doing drills, physical training and taking part in training sessions on techniques, use of equipment and related matters;
* maintaining a level of physical fitness necessary to carry out all the duties of a firefighter;
* educating and informing the public to help promote fire safety, eg giving talks in schools and to local organisations.

For the fire officer in charge, additional activities will include:

* assessing situations quickly and deciding on the best course of action;
* directing the crew;
* writing full incident reports. source (http://www.prospects.ac.uk/cms/ShowPage/Home_page/Explore_types_of_jobs/Types_of_Job/p%21eipaL?state=showocc&pageno=1&idno=203)


Nature and Scope of Job

The Operational Firefighter must, as part of operational duties, endeavour to save lives, carry out humanitarian services as necessary and protect property; these duties can be summarised as:

• attending and dealing with incidents involving fire.
• attending to incidents such as road traffic accidents, or similar, and to extricate victims or casualties and render the scene safe from further risk of fire.
• instigating protective measures to safeguard members of the public from hazards resulting from dangerous buildings or structures, as required.
• mitigating the effects of damage to property as a result of freak or exceptional climatic conditions, if safe to do so.
• prevent the suffering to and effect the rescue of animals trapped by fire or other miscellaneous cause.
• providing physical assistance and rescue skills to aid other emergency services at civil disasters or other major incidents.
• assist authorities at incidents involving on site hazardous substances or those in transportation and protect the public from the effects of those substances as part of routine service duties.
• carry out responsibilities in connection with Fire Safety, as directed by Brigade Policy.
• carry out responsibilities in connection with Community Safety, as directed by Brigade Policy.
• complete all relevant paperwork associated with an Operational Firefighter's duties including maintenance of Brigade records.
• maintain standards of dress and personal appearance as required by Brigade Policy, reflecting the proper image of a uniformed service.
• maintain a level of fitness in accordance with Brigade medical standards and Home Office Regulations covering Operational Firefighters.
• carry out inspections of property and report of risks under the Fire Services Act 2004.
• check, test and maintain equipment carried on appliances and record results in Station Records.
• inspect and test fire hydrants in accordance with Brigade policy.
• host and guide members of the public visiting Fire Service premises.
• during periods of agreed availability to attend the designated fire station for additional training to specific maintenance tasks or carry out routine duties, as directed by the Supervisory Officer. source (http://www.rbfrs.co.uk/workingforus_retained_job_description.html)

It's part of their job.

The task was to promote safety, not to pass judgement on the lifestyle of the audience.

so spin on that BB

I still think the whole thing could have been done on a voluntary basis , preventing this whole incident occuring. Or was it and no volunteers were forthcoming?

[DanB]

source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5301334.stm)

source (http://www.prospects.ac.uk/cms/ShowPage/Home_page/Explore_types_of_jobs/Types_of_Job/p%21eipaL?state=showocc&pageno=1&idno=203)


Nature and Scope of Job

The Operational Firefighter must, as part of operational duties, endeavour to save lives, carry out humanitarian services as necessary and protect property; these duties can be summarised as:

• attending and dealing with incidents involving fire.
• attending to incidents such as road traffic accidents, or similar, and to extricate victims or casualties and render the scene safe from further risk of fire.
• instigating protective measures to safeguard members of the public from hazards resulting from dangerous buildings or structures, as required.
• mitigating the effects of damage to property as a result of freak or exceptional climatic conditions, if safe to do so.
• prevent the suffering to and effect the rescue of animals trapped by fire or other miscellaneous cause.
• providing physical assistance and rescue skills to aid other emergency services at civil disasters or other major incidents.
• assist authorities at incidents involving on site hazardous substances or those in transportation and protect the public from the effects of those substances as part of routine service duties.
• carry out responsibilities in connection with Fire Safety, as directed by Brigade Policy.
• carry out responsibilities in connection with Community Safety, as directed by Brigade Policy.
• complete all relevant paperwork associated with an Operational Firefighter's duties including maintenance of Brigade records.
• maintain standards of dress and personal appearance as required by Brigade Policy, reflecting the proper image of a uniformed service.
• maintain a level of fitness in accordance with Brigade medical standards and Home Office Regulations covering Operational Firefighters.
• carry out inspections of property and report of risks under the Fire Services Act 2004.
• check, test and maintain equipment carried on appliances and record results in Station Records.
• inspect and test fire hydrants in accordance with Brigade policy.
• host and guide members of the public visiting Fire Service premises.
• during periods of agreed availability to attend the designated fire station for additional training to specific maintenance tasks or carry out routine duties, as directed by the Supervisory Officer. source (http://www.rbfrs.co.uk/workingforus_retained_job_description.html)

It's part of their job.

The task was to promote safety, not to pass judgement on the lifestyle of the audience.

so spin on that BB

I still think the whole thing could have been done on a voluntary basis , preventing this whole incident occuring. Or was it and no voulunteers were forthcoming?


I don't know, why don't you go and ask them? :dry:

[JPaul]

I still think the whole thing could have been done on a voluntary basis , preventing this whole incident occuring. Or was it and no volunteers were forthcoming?

If it's part of their normal duties why would you ask for volunteers.

[bigboab]

I still think the whole thing could have been done on a voluntary basis , preventing this whole incident occuring. Or was it and no volunteers were forthcoming?

If it's part of their normal duties why would you ask for volunteers.

It used to be the norm to ask for volunteers to attend 'functions' outside of what would be your normal activities. It was normally an overtime job like attending football matches(Policemen) etc. How much did this cost the taxpayer? These 'leaflets' could have been put through everybody's door at the rate of about £3 per hundred doors.

[vidcc]

If the question was " should a fire safety awareness activity be taking place at a public Mardi gras (gay pride parade) at all ? " then that would be a fair discussion. What qualifies as a legitimate place to set up a safety awareness stand is a fair discussion.
However that is not what this is about.

The fact that it was a gay pride parade is irrelevant to the case against these firemen. They work in a discipline service. Those that make the decision where "to set up shop" decided to do so, and the order was given.
These firefighters made the choice to disobey an order and in a discipline service that is serious misconduct.


How much did this cost the taxpayer? These 'leaflets' could have been put through everybody's door at the rate of about £3 per hundred doors.

I think the point is that people will ask questions and the firefighter will be able to answer them. A firefighter is more effective in person than a leaflet through a door.

[JPaul]

If it's part of their normal duties why would you ask for volunteers.

It used to be the norm to ask for volunteers to attend 'functions' outside of what would be your normal activities.

It would appear to be part of their normal duties tho'. Wait, that was in the question "If it's part of their normal duties why would you ask for volunteers."

[JPaul]

Another good point from vidcc. They signed the contract so were obliged to follow the order. If they didn't like it then they should have left.

You'll remember boab, failure to follow a legally given order is not allowed.

I think the Union will broker some form of compromise and the punishments will be reduced. Possibly with those involved saying they will do it when instructed the next time.

[bigboab]

Another good point from vidcc. They signed the contract so were obliged to follow the order. If they didn't like it then they should have left.

You'll remember boab, failure to follow a legally given order is not allowed.

I think the Union will broker some form of compromise and the punishments will be reduced. Possibly with those involved saying they will do it when instructed the next time.

Yes I agree that is the case. However in my day we would not have been asked to do this type of thing. I personally dont know if this was a good or a bad thing. My point in this thread was to show that IMO this PC thing has gone a wee bit too far. I have not changed that opinion and completely agree with Archbishop Mario Conti on this matter.:)


Fire service wrong to order staff to gay march - Archbishop Mario Conti The Firemaster of Strathclyde is right. Firefighters must do all they can to save lives and protect property for all groups in society. There can be no acceptance of bias in their fulfilment of duty.
But I believe Strathclyde Fire and Rescue was wrong to require firefighters to take part in – support – a gay pride march earlier this summer. Why? Not because homosexual persons should not be given fire-safety advice. On the contrary they (like every other citizen) should be offered every assistance by the Fire Brigade in becoming more aware of issues relating to fire safety.
But the best way to deliver that essential advice is not by participating in a high-spirited, carnivalesque procession, when marchers – many in fancy dress – are distracted and exuberant.
I understand that when volunteers were sought to “support” the parade not one firefighter came forward. Is it any wonder? They all felt legitimately uncomfortable about going into that atmosphere wearing their uniforms, (some were aware of a “kiss-a-fireman” campaign planned for the event) knowing full well that they would be subjected to cat-calls, inappropriate comments and, for some of them, gross insults to their religious beliefs.
And for the record, it needs to be stated that the men handed out leaflets in the vicinity of the march. What they would not do was participate, which in their eyes would have amounted to an acceptance and indeed celebration of the message of the parade – certainly not a core duty of firefighters.
If the fire service was only interested in getting the fire-safety message across to homosexual people would it not have been more productive to arrange talks, leave leaflets, or conduct visits to the LGBT centre in Glasgow, gay bars or similar centres in the area?
A comparison can be illuminating: effective fire-safety advice for members of the Orange Order would not be best delivered in the rarified atmosphere of a July 12 parade.
No, it seems to me that the real reason for the order to participate was not to offer life-saving advice to the individuals present – it was to enable the brigade as an institution to be seen as tolerant, “embracing diversity” and politically correct. The firefighters were caught in the middle – ordered to support the march as a means of demonstrating their employer’s commitment to “tolerance”.
But isn’t it a little ironic that what started out as an attempt to show the service’s tolerant attitudes has ended up as a PR disaster with the brigade showing intolerance of their own employees’ consciences and sensitivities?
03 September 2006

[Agrajag]

I'm not disagreeing with you boab, I don't think they should have been forced into attending and supporting a gay mardi gras either. However it's simply a fact that if it's in their contract of employment then they don't really have an excuse for not attending.

If they had genuine reasons not to do it, for example the "kiss a fireman" thing, which would be sexual harrasment, then through their Union they should have either asked to be left out, or demanded to be accompanied by a Police Officer.

Perhaps they tried these things, I don't know. However just not doing it simply isn't an acceptable option.

[bigboab]

I'm not disagreeing with you boab, I don't think they should have been forced into attending and supporting a gay mardi gras either. However it's simply a fact that if it's in their contract of employment then they don't really have an excuse for not attending.

If they had genuine reasons not to do it, for example the "kiss a fireman" thing, which would be sexual harrasment, then through their Union they should have either asked to be left out, or demanded to be accompanied by a Police Officer.

Perhaps they tried these things, I don't know. However just not doing it simply isn't an acceptable option.

I totally agree. I think this has just been a case of pigheadedness(spelling?) on both sides. You see it on every factory floor and every office. Usually a compromise is reached though.:)

[Agrajag]

I'm not disagreeing with you boab, I don't think they should have been forced into attending and supporting a gay mardi gras either. However it's simply a fact that if it's in their contract of employment then they don't really have an excuse for not attending.

If they had genuine reasons not to do it, for example the "kiss a fireman" thing, which would be sexual harrasment, then through their Union they should have either asked to be left out, or demanded to be accompanied by a Police Officer.

Perhaps they tried these things, I don't know. However just not doing it simply isn't an acceptable option.

I totally agree. I think this has just been a case of pigheadedness(spelling?) on both sides. You see it on every factory floor and every office. Usually a compromise is reached though.:)


For some reason I am reminded of "Carry On At Your Convenience"

[Skweeky]

Before I post a real reply...
What's PC?

[j2k4]

Before I post a real reply...
What's PC?

PC=Politically Correct

[Busyman™]

Before I post a real reply...
What's PC?

Politically correct many times is totally incorrect.

It's what makes me an African-American instead of simply black.:ermm:

[Snee]

As in one of those thingies with possibly half-naked men, parading, dancing and getting drunk?

Yeah, that sounds great, having to stand in the middle of one of those.
It should be their civic duty. And if someone hits on them, that's a bonus.





...
But the best way to deliver that essential advice is not by participating in a high-spirited, carnivalesque procession, when marchers – many in fancy dress – are distracted and exuberant.
I understand that when volunteers were sought to “support” the parade not one firefighter came forward. Is it any wonder? They all felt legitimately uncomfortable about going into that atmosphere wearing their uniforms, (some were aware of a “kiss-a-fireman” campaign planned for the event) knowing full well that they would be subjected to cat-calls, inappropriate comments and, for some of them, gross insults to their religious beliefs.
And for the record, it needs to be stated that the men handed out leaflets in the vicinity of the march. What they would not do was participate, which in their eyes would have amounted to an acceptance and indeed celebration of the message of the parade – certainly not a core duty of firefighters.
If the fire service was only interested in getting the fire-safety message across to homosexual people would it not have been more productive to arrange talks, leave leaflets, or conduct visits to the LGBT centre in Glasgow, gay bars or similar centres in the area?
...


Hot damn! It's almost like I make sense sometimes.

This shouldn't have had to happen, and it's a right fuck-up on the part of their superiors.



EDit: and they did do something too, they just didn't participate in the march.

[Chip Monk]

If they handed out the leaflets, as part of their duty but did not participate in the march then surely it is the firefighters who have been wronged. Any action against them is grossly unfair if they did in fact carry out the duties required of them.