good ol' popey..

[tralalala]

finally a pope with balls...

and yet what he said was proven a day later.. he said Islamists are extremist violent people.. the Muslims obviously disagreed, and how? by throwing molotov cocktails at a church in Nablus......



i honestly think world war 3 will be Islam vs. Rest of World.

[peat moss]

Does n't he have a planed trip to Turkey later this year ? That should be interesting as their prodominatly Muslim .


Found an updated link :

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1103AP_Pope_Muslims.html

[j2k4]

Those in the Muslim world who are offended seem to be the type who provide their own context for feeling slighted by Pope Ben's remarks.

It doesn't appear they will suffer any exploration of their intent by anyone, for any purpose.

I guess we'd better watch for terrorist acts in Vatican City, huh?

BTW-

Where is the relevant commentary from the "tolerance" crowd?

Oh, that's right-they don't do Catholic...:dry:

[MagicNakor]

Had it been the other way around, and one of the most prominent Islamic leaders saying that Christianity was "evil and inhuman," no doubt the Vatican would be outraged.

I doubt that he wasn't expecting a reaction.

:shuriken:

[Busyman™]

finally a pope with balls...

and yet what he said was proven a day later.. he said Islamists are extremist violent people.. the Muslims obviously disagreed, and how? by throwing molotov cocktails at a church in Nablus......



i honestly think world war 3 will be Islam vs. Rest of World.

I think the pope is a joke. Besides being head of the Vatican (political role), what's the point of him religious-wise?

I remember seeing this past line

"it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every creature to be united to the Roman Pontiff"

WTF?!

[j2k4]

Had it been the other way around, and one of the most prominent Islamic leaders saying that Christianity was "evil and inhuman," no doubt the Vatican would be outraged.

I doubt that he wasn't expecting a reaction.

:shuriken:

One wonders.

Can they possibly be appeased by anything the Pope would subsequently say?

I doubt it.

In any case, shifting the shoe from one foot to the other, I wonder if an Islamic cleric could be counted on to backpedal as the Pope has in the event one of them said something (that is to say, abnormally) offensive?

Oh, wait; they have-with regularity.

You can hear more inflammatory rhetoric in just about any mosque you'd care to visit, according to the reportage.

[bigboab]

finally a pope with balls...

and yet what he said was proven a day later.. he said Islamists are extremist violent people.. the Muslims obviously disagreed, and how? by throwing molotov cocktails at a church in Nablus......



i honestly think world war 3 will be Islam vs. Rest of World.


Did all the previous Popes not have any?:rolleyes:

He was quoting what someone else had said in the 3rd Century or thereabouts. Those were not his own words. The whole thing has been taken out of context, even by you.:)

[tralalala]

well, at least he had the guts to say it again :)


btw how u doin Bob? long time no speak!! :)

[MagicNakor]

One wonders.

Can they possibly be appeased by anything the Pope would subsequently say?

I doubt it.

In any case, shifting the shoe from one foot to the other, I wonder if an Islamic cleric could be counted on to backpedal as the Pope has in the event one of them said something (that is to say, abnormally) offensive?

Oh, wait; they have-with regularity.

You can hear more inflammatory rhetoric in just about any mosque you'd care to visit, according to the reportage.

The average cleric doesn't have the visibility or esteem that the Pope has. :rolleyes:

:shuriken:

[j2k4]

One wonders.

Can they possibly be appeased by anything the Pope would subsequently say?

I doubt it.

In any case, shifting the shoe from one foot to the other, I wonder if an Islamic cleric could be counted on to backpedal as the Pope has in the event one of them said something (that is to say, abnormally) offensive?

Oh, wait; they have-with regularity.

You can hear more inflammatory rhetoric in just about any mosque you'd care to visit, according to the reportage.

The average cleric doesn't have the visibility or esteem that the Pope has. :rolleyes:

:shuriken:

True enough, though the the Islamic rioters, having prompted the expression of regret from the Pope, seem to be communicating very visibly, don't they?


Do you suppose the Muslim clerics would forego their incitements long enough to be polled?

Insofar as your point is true, what would prevent us from assigning the Islamic "spokesman" role to a cleric given to especially inflammatory rhetoric, and investing in him the stature of primacy, as tantamount to the pontiff?

Do you think his fellow clerics would deign to shift their chairs away from his, as if his words were wafted upon gusts of verbal flatulence? :dry:

By the same token, I'm quite sure there are a few Catholics who may feel the Pope has overstepped, though whether or not we'll hear from them is yet to be seen.

Are you aware of any Muslim voices calling for a moderation of the Islamic response?

[peat moss]

finally a pope with balls...

and yet what he said was proven a day later.. he said Islamists are extremist violent people.. the Muslims obviously disagreed, and how? by throwing molotov cocktails at a church in Nablus......



i honestly think world war 3 will be Islam vs. Rest of World.

I think the pope is a joke. Besides being head of the Vatican (political role), what's the point of him religious-wise?

I remember seeing this past line

"it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every creature to be united to the Roman Pontiff"

WTF?!

Was that the head of the Catholic or head by the Catholic ? The Salvation Army is another sore point with me .

But just my thoughts ,after being brought up in a strict Catholic home .

[MagicNakor]

Assigning a "spokesman" for Islam from without wouldn't work; it would have to be something initiated and supported from within.

I haven't taken a look at the news in the last couple days, but I recall back over the Dutch cartoon controversy a number of calls for moderation (specifically from various mosques in Canada).

:shuriken:

[j2k4]

Assigning a "spokesman" for Islam from without wouldn't work; it would have to be something initiated and supported from within.

I'm not talking about asking them, you see. :whistling

Point being, I'd love to have one of them speak up to say, "Now, wait just a minute-(insert cleric's name here) doesn't speak for me..."

[bigboab]

I think the pope is a joke. Besides being head of the Vatican (political role), what's the point of him religious-wise?

I remember seeing this past line

"it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every creature to be united to the Roman Pontiff"

WTF?!

Was that the head of the Catholic or head by the Catholic ? The Salvation Army is another sore point with me .

But just my thoughts ,after being brought up in a strict Catholic home .

Why? Would you care to elucidate? Being non religious, they appear to me to be continually doing something for the more unfortunate amongst us.:)


P.S. I am trying to ensure a bowl of soup in the not too distant future.:rolleyes:

Sorry, Hi Rafi.

[Agrajag]

Anyone, anywhere, of any religion, or lack thereof can say anything they want, at any time in any tone of voice, for any reason, about the Catholic Church. No-one will get up in arms about it.

FFS the UK is constitutionally and institutionally anti-Catholic and it's been that way for centuries.

Forgive me if I don't get my knickers in a twist because His Holiness quoted a 14th century Byzantine emperor and people who go out of their way to find offence have managed to get offended by it.

Here's what you are managing to achieve. People like me saying, "Well fuck off then. You don't like me, you don't like what I believe, then don't fucking talk to me, or trade with me, or take my aid, or come to my Country. Promise I won't come to your's."

[j2k4]

Anyone, anywhere, of any religion, or lack thereof can say anything they want, at any time in any tone of voice, for any reason, about the Catholic Church. No-one will get up in arms about it.

FFS the UK is constitutionally and institutionally anti-Catholic and it's been that way for centuries.

Forgive me if I don't get my knickers in a twist because His Holiness quoted a 14th century Byzantine emperor and people who go out of their way to find offence have managed to get offended by it.

Here's what you are managing to achieve. People like me saying, "Well fuck off then. You don't like me, you don't like what I believe, then don't fucking talk to me, or trade with me, or take my aid, or come to my Country. Promise I won't come to your's."

What?

No rioting, no church burning?

Are you quite mad? :O

[Busyman™]

I just don't get Muslims these days.

I was just watching Bill Maher and he said that people take the pope more seriously than Catholics.

If the pope says, "You must stop masturbation."

Catholics would say, "Look at him hahahaha. He has on a funny hat."

Why does anyone care what the fuck he thinks? He is just a man and man with little meaning religious-wise.:dry:

Muslims want to act out as if they've been embarassed....their shorts have been pulled down on stage at the Superbowl halftime show and now every knows they have a 1-inch penis.

NOT.

[JPaul]

Anyone, anywhere, of any religion, or lack thereof can say anything they want, at any time in any tone of voice, for any reason, about the Catholic Church. No-one will get up in arms about it.

FFS the UK is constitutionally and institutionally anti-Catholic and it's been that way for centuries.

Forgive me if I don't get my knickers in a twist because His Holiness quoted a 14th century Byzantine emperor and people who go out of their way to find offence have managed to get offended by it.

Here's what you are managing to achieve. People like me saying, "Well fuck off then. You don't like me, you don't like what I believe, then don't fucking talk to me, or trade with me, or take my aid, or come to my Country. Promise I won't come to your's."

What?

No rioting, no church burning?

Are you quite mad? :O

Mad, I'm bastard furious.

[j2k4]

What?

No rioting, no church burning?

Are you quite mad? :O

Mad, I'm bastard furious.

Oh, but not irrational, then...still tolerant, and all that?

What kind of religious nut-bag are you, anyhoo?

Downright uncivilized.

[j2k4]

***

[Agrajag]

Mad, I'm bastard furious.

Oh, but not irrational, then...still tolerant, and all that?

What kind of religious nut-bag are you, anyhoo?

Downright uncivilized.

Tolerant to a fault old bean.

I haven't had a jihad in ages.

Not even a fatwah when I think about it.

[j2k4]

Oh, but not irrational, then...still tolerant, and all that?

What kind of religious nut-bag are you, anyhoo?

Downright uncivilized.

Tolerant to a fault old bean.

I haven't had a jihad in ages.

Not even a fatwah when I think about it.

Perhaps you are dissipated from overuse of the multiple-identity ploy.

I suggest you tighten your focus and quit dallying about.

Study your Old Testament a bit to put you in the mood. :)

[Mr JP Fugley]

A fare point, eye shall give it Jew considerations.

[Barbarossa]

I think the pope is a joke. Besides being head of the Vatican (political role), what's the point of him religious-wise?



Well, Catholics see him as the mouthpiece of God I guess :blink:

The rest of us just think he's a cawk. :idunno:



Muslims just like having an excuse to get offended. :shutup:

[Busyman]

I think the pope is a joke. Besides being head of the Vatican (political role), what's the point of him religious-wise?



Well, Catholics see him as the mouthpiece of God I guess :blink:

The rest of us just think he's a cawk. :idunno:



Muslims just like having an excuse to get offended. :shutup:

:lol: :lol:

Mouthpiece of God.

He's an elected official that changes his tune just like any other elected official and nothing more.

Yeah Muslims are acting like killer bees.:ermm:

[sArA]

I am finding it more and more difficult to sympathise with those who follow Islam, when the so called 'moderates' do not stand up and condemn the violent outcry from their 'fundamentalist' brethren.

It seems to me that to find offence at being accused of being a violent religion and then to demonstrate their offence by the use of violence is just plain bonkers.

Not exactly the way to make friends and influence people is it?

[Busyman]

I am finding it more and more difficult to sympathise with those who follow Islam, when the so called 'moderates' do not stand up and condemn the violent outcry from their 'fundamentalist' brethren.

It seems to me that to find offence at being accused of being a violent religion and then to demonstrate their offence by the use of violence is just plain bonkers.

Not exactly the way to make friends and influence people is it?

Yeah I read that a nun was killed in Somalia over the pope's remarks. That's pretty fucked-up.:angry:

I guess these fucking Muslims are just plain fucking stupid.

Imagine the world if it started acting like them...you know, killing Muslims based on what some high ranking Imam said. Maybe they'd understand then.

[JPaul]

I think the pope is a joke. Besides being head of the Vatican (political role), what's the point of him religious-wise?



Well, Catholics see him as the mouthpiece of God I guess :blink:

The rest of us just think he's a cawk. :idunno:



See, if you said that about a Muslim or one of their leaders they would non-violently burn you to death.

We however believe in freedom of expression.

[JPaul]

Yeah I read that a nun was killed in Somalia over the pope's remarks. That's pretty fucked-up.:angry:



That's impossible, it's a non-violent religion.

[Skillian]

Jeez, do any of you listen to the radio or read a newspaper? There are Muslims all over condemning the violent reactions in other countries.

You are sticking your heads in the sand then complaining about the lack of sunlight.

[bigboab]

I am finding it more and more difficult to sympathise with those who follow Islam, when the so called 'moderates' do not stand up and condemn the violent outcry from their 'fundamentalist' brethren.

It seems to me that to find offence at being accused of being a violent religion and then to demonstrate their offence by the use of violence is just plain bonkers.

Not exactly the way to make friends and influence people is it?

Yeah I read that a nun was killed in Somalia over the pope's remarks. That's pretty fucked-up.:angry:

I guess these fucking Muslims are just plain fucking stupid.

Imagine the world if it started acting like them...you know, killing Muslims based on what some high ranking Imam said. Maybe they'd understand then.

I am patiently awaiting a comment from a Somalian member.:(

[Sextent]

Jeez, do any of you listen to the radio or read a newspaper? There are Muslims all over condemning the violent reactions in other countries.

You are sticking your heads in the sand then complaining about the lack of sunlight.

Do you read the papers, they are burning down Churches and shooting Nuns. Over the Pope quoting someone.

The BNP and their like are decried, quite rightly, for racist and sectarian speeches for fuck sake.

[Skillian]

Did you read my post or just quote it?

I responded to both the points you just made :/

[Sextent]

Did you read my post or just quote it?

I responded to both the points you just made :/

No you didn't, you said there were people decrying violence.

You made no mention of the murders and mindless violence, the really important part of it.

People saying that it's bad, that's a good thing. However it doesn't bring the Nun or her bodyguard back to life. Neither does it repair the burned out Churches.

The Pope's point, religion should not be used as a justification for violence. The response, you have insulted my religion so I will randomly murder members of your's. Do you see just how fucked up that is.

[100%]

Some idiots shot at the synagoge in my area last weekend.

[Sextent]

Some idiots shot at the synagoge in my area last weekend.

Must have been a Hindu, the Muslim religion is non-violent.

[Skillian]

Did you read my post or just quote it?

I responded to both the points you just made :/

No you didn't, you said there were people decrying violence.

You made no mention of the murders and mindless violence, the really important part of it.

People saying that it's bad, that's a good thing. However it doesn't bring the Nun or her bodyguard back to life. Neither does it repair the burned out Churches.

The Pope's point, religion should not be used as a justification for violence. The response, you have insulted my religion so I will randomly murder members of your's. Do you see just how fucked up that is.

If people are decrying the violent response to the Pope's remarks, you can be sure they decry the murders too. As the speaker on FiveLive this morning was, along with two columnists in the editorial section of The Independent newspaper.

I wasn't saying that's enough, nor do I fail to see the irony in people using violence to protest that they have been called a violent people.

It just annoys me that whenever incidents like this happen, people always say there are no Muslims condemning the response (implying that they all agree). I'm quite sure that none of these commentators have Muslim friends or even co-workers, or they would certainly see that most Muslims (at least in the Western world) think the violent response is as stupid as we do.

[100%]

Some idiots shot at the synagoge in my area last weekend.

Must have been a Hindu, the Muslim religion is non-violent.

it was probably architect students.

[Sextent]

No you didn't, you said there were people decrying violence.

You made no mention of the murders and mindless violence, the really important part of it.

People saying that it's bad, that's a good thing. However it doesn't bring the Nun or her bodyguard back to life. Neither does it repair the burned out Churches.

The Pope's point, religion should not be used as a justification for violence. The response, you have insulted my religion so I will randomly murder members of your's. Do you see just how fucked up that is.

If people are decrying the violent response to the Pope's remarks, you can be sure they decry the murders too. As the speaker on FiveLive this morning was, along with two columnists in the editorial section of The Independent newspaper.

I wasn't saying that's enough, nor do I fail to see the irony in people using violence to protest that they have been called a violent people.

It just annoys me that whenever incidents like this happen, people always say there are no Muslims condemning the response (implying that they all agree). I'm quite sure that none of these commentators have Muslim friends or even co-workers, or they would certainly see that most Muslims (at least in the Western world) think the violent response is as stupid as we do.


Who decries these acts, Muslims in the UK who have become more westenised. Muslims in other western countries, who also have learned a bit of tolerance. How many Muslims in the region are decrying the acts. That's who should be doing it, are they. I genuinely don't know.

[100%]

6 years ago, the muslim world was none existent in your feable minds.

[Skillian]

I think I basically agree with you. It would be nice to see radical clerics condemning the violence, but that seems unlikely.

Throughout this thread people are asking "where is the condemnation from the moderate Muslims"? That was the point I was addressing, and I was merely pointing them to where I've seen it just today.

edit: @ Sextent

[j2k4]

6 years ago, the muslim world was none existent in your feable minds.

6 years ago, you probably wouldn't have used the word "feable".

In six more years, perhaps you'll have learned to spell it correctly. :P

[Sextent]

I think I basically agree with you. It would be nice to see radical clerics condemning the violence, but that seems unlikely.

Throughout this thread people are asking "where is the condemnation from the moderate Muslims"? That was the point I was addressing, and I was merely pointing them to where I've seen it just today.

edit: @ Sextent

I'm not disagreeing, any condemnation of violence is a good thing. However just having Muslims who were born and brought up in places like England speak out will achieve little.

It needs the people in the region to say, no, you are not speaking for me. How likely is that in a Country which follows Sharia Law, again I genuinely don't know enough about it to properly comment. However I suspect it is low.

[Sextent]

6 years ago, the muslim world was none existent in your feable minds.

6 years ago, you probably wouldn't have used the word "feable".

In six more years, perhaps you'll have learned to spell it correctly. :P

I think the chances of that are nigh on non-existant.

[Skillian]

Agreed. Personally, I think if they don't speak out against the slaughter of (hundreds of) thousands of Muslims in Darfur, the likelihood of them speaking out against one murdered nun is less than slim.

[100%]

6 years ago, you probably wouldn't have used the word "feable".

In six more years, perhaps you'll have learned to spell it correctly. :P

6 yrs ago, i would have used more intelligent words, actually explaining my thoughts.

"In six more years, perhaps you'll have learned to spell it correctly.

learnt?




.

[Sextent]

Agreed. Personally, I think if they don't speak out against the slaughter of (hundreds of) thousands of Muslims in Darfur, the likelihood of them speaking out against one murdered nun is less than slim.

That's true.

One suspects that it's the fault of the Americans, supported by the British tho'. I'm not entirely sure why, however it's almost certainly the case. Probably by not overthrowing the Sudanese Government.

[BrolyBoo]

Those in the Muslim world who are offended seem to be the type who provide their own context for feeling slighted by Pope Ben's remarks.

It doesn't appear they will suffer any exploration of their intent by anyone, for any purpose.

I guess we'd better watch for terrorist acts in Vatican City, huh?

BTW-

Where is the relevant commentary from the "tolerance" crowd?

Oh, that's right-they don't do Catholic...:dry:

honestly, i cant think why other muslims are really, that angry at him

i mean really, wtf did he do to make people acutally make moltovcocktails(sp?) and acutally attack a church.

It even says in the Qu'ran to be brothers and this is how we treat him?

we'd be better off if all of us just ignored it

[j2k4]

I think I basically agree with you. It would be nice to see radical clerics condemning the violence, but that seems unlikely.

Throughout this thread people are asking "where is the condemnation from the moderate Muslims"? That was the point I was addressing, and I was merely pointing them to where I've seen it just today.

edit: @ Sextent

I must say, this is the very first instance I have heard any variety of Muslim voices whatsoever denouncing violence, however mildly.

I would be very interested to hear the heavyweights at CAIR do the same thing, but they are an interesting case; on one hand, they are regarded as "the moderate and accepted voice" of Islam (this is how they paint themselves, anyway), while on the other, they tout the inevitability of Islam uber alles.

I have never heard any Muslim voice raised in opposition to this view; this has the effect of creating the perception of tacit unity with your average "non-violent" Muslim.

On a related note, I have several recollections of "non-affiliated" Muslims expressing concern at the possibility of violence arising from anti-Muslim sentiment.

Does it occur to them they might benefit by giving voice to their distaste (if such exists) for violent acts commited in the name of Islam?

[j2k4]

Agreed. Personally, I think if they don't speak out against the slaughter of (hundreds of) thousands of Muslims in Darfur, the likelihood of them speaking out against one murdered nun is less than slim.

Curious, that.

We talk a great game about Darfur; the U.N. gives great lip-service, but is effectively impotent.

Whence comes the moral authority to compel genuine multilateral action in this situation?

If the U.S. jumps in, the rest of the world will cheer/not cheer and announce their willingness to closely observe our progress so as to criticize us for our rashness.

Genuine aid, hardware, and military forces will come from a small coalition willing to work under the adverse conditions that await.

The French will promise thousands of troops, then send a sous chef and a dishwasher.

Meanwhile...the beat goes on.

The fact of the matter is death means martyrdom for these crazies, and if any innocent Muslim gets in their way, tough, and "we can always blame it on the Americans".

[Busyman™]

Curious, that.

We talk a great game about Darfur; the U.N. gives great lip-service, but is effectively impotent.

Whence comes the moral authority to compel genuine multilateral action in this situation?

If the U.S. jumps in, the rest of the world will cheer/not cheer and announce their willingness to closely observe our progress so as to criticize us for our rashness.

Genuine aid, hardware, and military forces will come from a small coalition willing to work under the adverse conditions that await.

The French will promise thousands of troops, then send a sous chef and a dishwasher.

Meanwhile...the beat goes on.

The fact of the matter is death means martyrdom for these crazies, and if any innocent Muslim gets in their way, tough, and "we can always blame it on the Americans".

What he said. :snooty:

[Skillian]

The situation in Darfur is the kind of thing "the West" could and should be getting involved in - instead we are overstretched in areas where our presence is needed much less.

Whence comes the moral authority to compel genuine multilateral action in this situation? Whence means where, right? If so, as much as you'll hate me saying it, it should come from the UN - there is no alternative.

Unfortunately, the US and, to a lesser extent the UK, have lost a lot much of their right to make moral judgements (though I don't hold that anyone thinks Americans are in any way held responsible for what is happening there), and so the only way to deal with the situation is, as you say, multilaterally.

The UN is struggling no doubt, and slowly struggling at that, but there is progress being made, and even George Clooney's appearance is having a positive impact in at least letting the world know it is happening - two weeks ago most people didn't have a clue.

If the US or UK want to help, they should offer troops and expertise/advice, but unilateral military action, however well justified, is unlikely to be appreciated in the long-term. You can argue that fact is the Muslims' fault, but I tend to think we've dug our own hole in that regard.

[JPaul]

Like I said earlier, if you hate me so much - don't talk to me, don't trade with me, don't accept my aid, don't visit my country. Promise I won't visit your's.

Who caused me to think this way, the people who murdered the Nun and burned the Churches. Why the fuck should I spend my money and sacrifice my children in sorting their problems out.

Why exactly am I going to help sort that problem out, so that you can kill more Christians, issue more fatwahs and have more jihads. Nah, pass.

[Skillian]

Many people feel that if these countries can sort their problems out they are less likely to kill Christians and order jihads.

Fair enough if you don't feel that way, but IMO when we have completely turned over to the "fuck you" - "no, fuck you" stage is when we'll really see WWIII kicking off.

[JPaul]

Many people feel that if these countries can sort their problems out they are less likely to kill Christians and order jihads.

Fair enough if you don't feel that way, but IMO when we have completely turned over to the "fuck you" - "no, fuck you" stage is when we'll really see WWIII kicking off.

Why, what did we do wrong there. It's none of our business, they tell us often enough. So let them deal with it.

It's a Sudanese / Muslim matter so let them sort it out between themselves, without us interfering. We can just go on living our lives, the way we want, without other people telling us why it's wrong.

That seems fair to me. N'est ce pas.

[ilw]

Like I said earlier, if you hate me so much - don't talk to me, don't trade with me, don't accept my aid, don't visit my country. Promise I won't visit your's.


well i don't like your tone, so don't accept my aid or visit my country either. and you better not even think of transitting through my airspace
:snooty:

[j2k4]

The situation in Darfur is the kind of thing "the West" could and should be getting involved in - instead we are overstretched in areas where our presence is needed much less.

Whence comes the moral authority to compel genuine multilateral action in this situation? Whence means where, right? If so, as much as you'll hate me saying it, it should come from the UN - there is no alternative.


Your opinion re: moral authority aside, our international reputation suffers mightily when we move unilaterally; witness the current situation.

The U.N. has dawdled over the Sudan for years, and, truth, has possibly even less real moral authority than Kim Jong Il or George Bush, depending on your particular bent.

I agree that the solution should be generated by the U.N...that doesn't change the fact it will never (read never) happen, because there is no financial nipple for the U.N. to suckle at.

You think the U.S. is the only entity that only moves out of it's own interest?

The U.N. will spend words 'til Hell freezes over because words are cheap.

For real big bucks, they'll actually show up, but only God/Allah knows how much it would cost for genuine action, because it's not on the U.N.'s menu.

As another side note, I wonder:

Why was it perfectly fine for Muslim terrorists to blow up the Golden Dome, after all the hullabaloo over the sanctity of such places?

Is that a whiff of...........hypocrisy I smell? :dry:

[Skillian]

Did you see the demonstrations around the world yesterday re Darfur? Many protestors wore blue hats.

Thousands of people want to see the UN do something in Darfur , and I'm happy they are not as cynical about the UN as you are. Basically people have decided they are the best thing we've got so we have to make it work.

I don't really believe the UN or even the US moves exclusively in its own interests - sometimes people really do want to make the world a better place (as hippified as that sounds), and sometimes those people are even politicians or diplomats. People are out there now trying to so something to help the fucked up situation in Darfur, but to dismiss them as irrelevant or worse because they haven't achieved it so far is unfair. They should do more though, perhaps we can agree on that.

Anyway, I'm way OT now - wasn't this thread about a Catholic who shits in the woods or something? :wacko:

[Busyman™]

Did you see the demonstrations around the world yesterday re Darfur? Many protestors wore blue hats.

Thousands of people want to see the UN do something in Darfur , and I'm happy they are not as cynical about the UN as you are. Basically people have decided they are the best thing we've got so we have to make it work.

I don't really believe the UN or even the US moves exclusively in its own interests - sometimes people really do want to make the world a better place (as hippified as that sounds), and sometimes those people are even politicians or diplomats. People are out there now trying to so something to help the fucked up situation in Darfur, but to dismiss them as irrelevant or worse because they haven't achieved it so far is unfair. They should do more though, perhaps we can agree on that.

Anyway, I'm way OT now - wasn't this thread about a Catholic who shits in the woods or something? :wacko:

Nuh uhhh. It was about a pretty much meaningless Katholick given meaning by those who aren't Katholick.

[j2k4]

Did you see the demonstrations around the world yesterday re Darfur? Many protestors wore blue hats.

Demonstrations?

With blue hats, you say?

Yesterday?

Has that ever been tried before?

Are things better in Darfur today?

Thousands of people want to see the UN do something in Darfur , and I'm happy they are not as cynical about the UN as you are. Basically people have decided they are the best thing we've got so we have to make it work.

I am not at all cynical about the U.N., I am realistic.

Thousands of people isn't enough; I think you can safely say "millions".

The U.N. has been around for a few years, and has not, in it's entire history, accomplished anything significant.

Merely wishing things to happen doesn't help.

Talking about doing something, having demonstrations, etc., are wondrous things for making the talkers and demonstrators feel great about themselves for being so "caring", but that is all.

There have been oddles of shiney rhetoric spoken from the podium at the U.N. about the situation in the Sudan.

The same was true of Rwanda.

Nothing was done, yet you place the highest hopes in more of the same, fully confident that, this time, the U.N. will come to the rescue-and you say that I am cynical if I attempt to disabuse you of your naivete?

I don't really believe the...US moves exclusively in its own interests - sometimes people really do want to make the world a better place (as hippified as that sounds), and sometimes those people are even politicians or diplomats. People are out there now trying to so something to help the fucked up situation in Darfur, but to dismiss them as irrelevant or worse because they haven't achieved it so far is unfair. They should do more though, perhaps we can agree on that.

I will restrain my cynicism to comment that your belief in the U.S. means that you and I will have to row the boat by ourselves, 'cuz we are the boat's sole occupants.

I do not dismiss those who wish something to be done as "irrelevant"...I dismiss them as "ineffective".

Talk.

Talk some more.

Yet more talk.

Action?

Have you any money?

How much?

That's not enough-let's talk about where to find more money.

People are dying!!!!

How about a resolution?

We need people; we need boots on the ground!!!!

Any volunteers?

No?

Well...perhaps we can talk somebody into helping...


George Clooney is a certified asshole.

I nonetheless laud his efforts in this case, and wish there were more like him, but what can he do?

Raise money?

The U.N. will take his money and ask for more, but will they resolve to push for a coalition to quell the violence?

Nah.

There is nothing in the Sudan to be raped except the little girls and women, but there's no money or resources, no booty to be divvied up by those who would deign to help.

That such lucre should be necessary is the saddest fact of all.

[Barbarossa]

You know things are getting bad when he starts with the "blue text within quotes" routine... :blink:

Time to leave. :dabs:

[Skillian]

j2k4, while I think a lot of what you say is true, I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. If the UN is too messed up and blinded by its quest for cash to do anything, then as people of the world we should try and change it, try to demand action.

I admit I am still wide-eyed and optimistic, maybe even naive, when it comes to politics. When I look at my friends, most have never voted and never will, and most don't really give a crap about what happens the other side of the world. I'm just not ready to join them yet (not that I'm saying that's how you see things - I'm sure it isn't).

I hope in a month or two's time I can point and say: "Hah! you were wrong, the UN did some good out there". However, I can't deny there is a niggling voice in the back of my head that says your assessment might be spot on. I just hope it isn't.

[j2k4]

The U.N. has forgotten it's charter.

It is no longer even the font of good intentions, it is a perpetual sponge with a nipple.

I wish I were wrong, but frankly, how can we expect an organization with a membership of home country corruption to be anything but corrupt?

The permanent members are merely the best of a bad lot.

[Busyman]

You know things are getting bad when he starts with the "blue text within quotes" routine... :blink:

Time to leave. :dabs:

I was thinking the same but I just skip it.

It's like you starting reading but then, "Okayyy, wee bit o blue" then...."Awww fuck, a whole lotta blue...next post.":ermm: