Jews?

[100%]

Sorry far my inane naivity, but when people refer in politics, movies, comedy etc about Jews.
Are they not in 2006 refering to Israel's occupation of Palestina?
Then why do they not simply say Isrealie supporters instead of jews?

The synagoge in our city recently got shot at, is this because of Israel, or for some other reason.

Please advise. (from the begining)

[bigboab]

I think that you better read about the subject. It would take too long to type it down here. Basically a Jew is a member of the Judaism Religion. They are scattered all over the World. After the Second world war a lot of Jews were homeless. The League of Nations decided to settle them in Palestine(Their promised land)* much to the chagrin of the people of Palestine. They renamed the country Israel. you'll find a lot of information here;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/

Sorry if I made any errors in the above. I am sure someone will point them out.:)

* there had been talk of doing this before the Second World War.

[tralalala]

Israel has been called that for thousands of years.......

Palestine is what the Ottomans called it if I am right.. correct me if I'm wrong.

In fact, the Brits had decided to ivide Palestine into 2 states in the early fortys.. 1 Jewish State, and 1 Arab State. The Arabs said no.. the UN decided the Jews could have their state, so the Jews said "fine.. the Arabs said no to a great offer, tough, we'll take our peice of land.. and we'll declare our state cos these other people can't settle for anything".

And so begane the 60+ year conflict.. which could be dated back thousands of years.. depends where you wish to stop in time.

[bigboab]

I thought the original name for the land was Canaan. Israel was another name for Jacob. Israeli history is not one of my better subjects so I will take your word for it Rafi.:)

[tralalala]

Depends.. :lol:

Canaan, Judea, Israel, Palestine, Palestina............


The land is still there.. it's only the name that changed :)



BTW, long time no see Bob, how are you? :)

[bigboab]

Hi Rafi. Still surviving, not that there is much left of me. Hearing aid, glasses, dentures etc.:lol:

I have been reading a bit further into the history of your area. I found out that the Arabs(Palestinians) actually still have 80% of the original Palestine. It is called Jordan. Not a lot of people know that.:lol:

[tralalala]

Riiiiiight.. go figure.. :lol: If you could get 'em happy with that fact half the problem is solved....



phat chance.. :lol:

[Smith]

I never quite understood why so many people hate jews. Can someone tell me why?

[sPike33]

I never quite understood why so many people hate jews. Can someone tell me why?
basicly, people think we (the jews) crusified jesus.. but its not true. the roman did... muslims hate us because we have jerusalem. well, in the 40's the UN tried to divide israel into 2 areas, 50% jews, 50% arabic and Jerusalem is a nuetral area with an UN force inside of it. The arabics didnt accept the offer, declared war on as and a day or two after we won the war.

[Barbarossa]

It has been said that the history of almost all of the Jewish holidays can be summed up succinctly: "They wanted to kill us; we won. Let's eat." Why has anti-Semitism been so pervasive in so many countries, in so many time periods and for so many reasons? (One begins to wonder. Perhaps there is something wrong with the Jews and Judaism? After all, there is an old Yiddish saying -- "If one person calls you a donkey, ignore him; if two people call you a donkey, buy a saddle.")

Between the years 250 CE and 1948 CE - a period of 1,700 years - Jews have experienced more than eighty expulsions from various countries in Europe - an average of nearly one expulsion every twenty-one years. Jews were expelled from England, France, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia, Moravia and seventy-one other countries.

Historians have classified six explanations as to why people hate the Jews:

1. Economic -- "We hate Jews because they possess too much wealth and power."
2. Chosen People -- "We hate Jews because they arrogantly claim that they are the chosen people."
3. Scapegoat -- "Jews are a convenient group to single out and blame for our troubles."
4. Deicide -- "We hate Jews because they killed Jesus."
5. Outsiders, -- "We hate Jews because they are different than us." (The dislike of the unlike.)
6. Racial Theory -- "We hate Jews because they are an inferior race."


As we examine the explanations, we must ask -- Are they the causes for anti-Semitism or excuses for Anti-Semitism? The difference? If one takes away the cause, then anti-Semitism should no longer exist. If one can show a contradiction to the explanation, it demonstrates that the "cause" is not a reason, it is just an excuse. Let's look at some contradictions:

1. Economic -- The Jews of 17th- 20th century Poland and Russia were dirt poor, had no influence and yet they were hated.

2. Chosen People -- a) In the late 19th century, the Jews of Germany denied "Choseness." And then they worked on assimilation. Yet, the holocaust started there. b) Christians and Moslems profess to being the "Chosen people," yet, the world and the anti-Semites tolerate them.

3. Scapegoat -- Any group must already be hated to be an effective scapegoat. The Scapegoat Theory does not then cause anti-Semitism. Rather, anti-Semitism is what makes the Jews a convenient scapegoat target. Hitler's ranting and ravings would not be taken seriously if he said, "It's the bicycle riders and the midgets who are destroying our society."

4. Deicide -- a) the Christian Bible says the Romans killed Jesus, though Jews are mentioned as accomplices (claims that Jews killed Jesus came several hundred years later). How come the accomplices are persecuted and there isn't an anti-Roman movement through history? b) Jesus himself said, "Forgive them [i.e., the Jews], for they know not what they do." The Second Vatican Council in 1963 officially exonerated the Jews as the killers of Jesus. Neither statement of Christian belief lessened anti-Semitism.

5. Outsiders -- With the Enlightenment in the late 18th century, many Jews rushed to assimilate. Anti-Semitism should have stopped. Instead, for example, with the Nazis came the cry, in essence: "We hate you, not because you're different, but because you're trying to become like us! We cannot allow you to infect the Aryan race with your inferior genes."

6. Racial Theory -- The overriding problem with this theory is that it is self-contradictory: Jews are not a race. Anyone can become a Jew - and members of every race, creed and color in the world have done so at one time or another.


Every other hated group is hated for a relatively defined reason. We Jews, however, are hated in paradoxes: Jews are hated for being a lazy and inferior race - but also for dominating the economy and taking over the world. We are hated for stubbornly maintaining our separateness - and, when we do assimilate - for posing a threat to racial purity through intermarriages. We are seen as pacifists and as warmongers; as capitalist exploiters and as revolutionary communists; possessed of a Chosen-People mentality, as well as of an inferiority complex. It seems that we just can't win.

Now we know what are NOT the reasons for anti-Semitism.

Source - http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Why_Do_People_Hate_The_Jews.htm

All theories have been discounted, nobody seems to know why people hated the Jews. They just did.

Maybe it was down to a combination of all the above reasons :unsure:

[tralalala]

As SPIKE said... It is believed that Judah snitched on Jesus so then the Romans crucified him, and since Judah was looked upon as a right a**hole..

Anyways, I read in the paper some time ago that there may be evidence to show Judah didn't actually snitch on Jesus.. maybe this is a base for Christian antisemetism?

By the way.. antisemetism is a wrong term.. it means I hate people living in Israel, Syria, Lebanon.. around the Med-sea.. but during WWII Hitler turned it into hatred of the Jews.

Anyhoo, Muslims hate us for having Jerusalem, but go figure.. they killed a hell of a lot of non-Jews in the WTC on 9/11...

In fact, if I recall correctly, it mentions in the Koran that the Jews should NOT be harmed by the Muslims.. but all these Sheikhs have done something that made milions of people belong to a religion that calls for holy war on the Jews and the Western world..



Oh wel...

[Barbarossa]

So basically as far as you're concerned, all the trouble is caused by religion, and the world would be a better place if everyone was an atheist? :blink:


I agree :smilie4:

[tralalala]

That's what I believe.. if everyone was an atheist there wouldn't really be a basis for hatred.. apart from maybe colour (apparently some people hate blacks, and some blacks hate white people...), maybe political views.. but in general, less hatred..

[ilw]

rough history of the region (dates not accurate):

1000BC - native tribes/inhabitants conquered by jews for the next millenia various portions of the land were ruled by a variety of different peoples, but there was generally a jewish presence on some of it.

100AD jews kicked out by romans

500AD - conquered by muslims and stays muslim for next 1.5 millenia

early 1900s - zionists (name for jews who decided they want their own country) set up a programme to get a jewish state by shipping lots of jews to the general palestine area, i.e. basic plan is to dominate demographically the people living there. Hundreds of thousands of zionists do go and the jewish population in palestine goes from practically zero to a significant percentage

1940s - post WW2 lots of refugee jewish people knocking around europe, western countries most importantly britain (which was in control of palestine) decide that the whole zionism thing is quite a good idea and allow mass transit of jews to palestine. Palestinians upset that they're getting f**ked, but any revolts are put down by the british.

late 1940s - Britain hands palestine over to UN because its a pain in the ass. A UN committee recommends that the land be split 50/50 basically, but only a third of the population was jewish at the time and the jews only owned 5% of the land. Jews obviously ok with this deal, native palestinians are not quite so keen to give up half their land for zero gain. Also the land split was only recommendations, the actual vote on the recommendatoins was resoundingly negative.

1940s fighting breaks out, a couple of massacres of palestinians occur, lots of palestinians flee from pro-jewish militias and the jews occupy the land that these massacres and this mass fleeing has left. This land is named israel. Surrounding countries invade, but they suck.

1967 - in a 6 day war israel doubles its size

1970s surrounding countries invade again, they suck again and israel gets bigger



(this history is intended to provide balance to the series of suggested histories already posted)

[Snee]

I'll declare a war on the roman empire, then.

[bigboab]

I'll declare a war on the roman empire, then.

You better get on your goat then. ( I apologize for the dyslexia.:))

Litle wonder that they call it the Holy Land. It is full of bomb craters, shell and bullet holes.

[littlehelenb]

The best way to live is to live safe.
***Stop terrorists***

You've got it all wrong........I've heard George Bush .......... I quote what I recently heard on CNN "We Merkins have to fight tourism"......I'm should that's what I heard. :naughty:

[Fenasi]

IMO zionists give a bad name to jews and muslim people usually confuse this with Judaism.Also sPike33've mentioned christians accuse the jews of killing Christ.

Here is the 5000 years of middle east history in 90 seconds and let's see who has controlled the holly lands over the course of history...

http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

[tralalala]

@ilw:

Not all Zionists wanted to come here first... In fact, one big group wanted first to get all Jews "back to the religion", and only then come over and build the state. The ones that did sucked, and the Brits made it illegal for them to come.

The Arab state was meant to be significantly bigger than the Jewish state, Arabs said no. Israel declares itself, war breaks out, surrounding countries attack and lose.

In the 50s another war breaks out, not much changes.

1967 - Israel wipes out armys getting ready to strike within 6 days, doubles it's size.

1973 - Arab countries attack, lose, and NO, Israel does NOT get bigger.

1979 - Peace deal with Egypt - Sini is given back.

1980s - First Intifada.

1994 - Peace deal with Jordan. Israel agrees to give Jordan water supplies in exchange for peace.

2000 - Second Intifada.

[tralalala]

And of course...

Summer 2006 - Second Lebanese war.... God know who won, I got pissed off, and it's time to settle down and either do peace, or go to a proper war against a conventional army and get it over and done with once and for all.

[bigboab]

And of course...

Summer 2006 - Second Lebanese war.... God know who won, I got pissed off, and it's time to settle down and either do peace, or go to a proper war against a conventional army and get it over and done with once and for all.

Conventional wars, IMO, are a thing of the past. It is very difficult to beat people in their own country. The 'invisible' enemy will eventually win. The UK and America and others have found this, to their cost, since the end of WW11.

Vietnam, Cyprus, Kenya, Malaya, Indo China are but a few examples of where 'occupying' forces have 'given up' and gone home. The present battles going on in Iraq and Afghanistan I am afraid will go the same way.

I dont think that there is any answer to this type of warfare. Other than to stop interfering with the internal politics of other countries.

[tralalala]

Excuse me Bob, but when did Israel interfere with Lebanese politics?!?!
Why did the war spark off? 2 soldiers were captured, and rockets started flying over our homes into Israel.. and the bloody cowards hid in civilian houses, underground, or behind women and children.

I'm afraid to say that the only military way to win is to wipe out 50% of the Lebanese population, something that obviously will not happen.. But these people just don't get it.. they want more and more and more.. get some, and want even more. Fuck 'em.. They are barbarians living 5 centuries ago.. this is the 21st century for heavens sake!






:(

[100%]

So...
When people today refer to Jews, they are refering to Isrealies?

[bigboab]

Excuse me Bob, but when did Israel interfere with Lebanese politics?!?!
Why did the war spark off? 2 soldiers were captured, and rockets started flying over our homes into Israel.. and the bloody cowards hid in civilian houses, underground, or behind women and children.

I'm afraid to say that the only military way to win is to wipe out 50% of the Lebanese population, something that obviously will not happen.. But these people just don't get it.. they want more and more and more.. get some, and want even more. Fuck 'em.. They are barbarians living 5 centuries ago.. this is the 21st century for heavens sake!






:(

Sorry, you have picked me up wrong Rafi. I was speaking generally. It does not matter what excuse the occupying forces have for going into another country, be it right, or wrong, they are generally ending up fighting a losing battle. As you yourself said, in so many words, you dont know who won in Lebanon.

[ilw]

Not all Zionists wanted to come here first... In fact, one big group wanted first to get all Jews "back to the religion", and only then come over and build the state. The ones that did sucked, and the Brits made it illegal for them to come.



The First Zionist Congress met in Basle, Switzerland, to discuss the ideas set out in Theodor Herzl's 1896 book Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State). The Congress issued the Basle Programme to establish a "home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured by public law" and set up the World Zionist Organisation to work for that end.
In 1917, the British Foreign Minister Arthur Balfour committed Britain to work towards "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people", in a letter to leading Zionist Lord Rothschild. It became known as the Balfour Declaration.




The Arab state was meant to be significantly bigger than the Jewish state, Arabs said no.


The territory was plagued with chronic unrest pitting native Arabs against Jewish immigrants (who now made up about a third the population, owning about 6% of the land).
The UN set up a special committee which recommended splitting the territory into separate Jewish and Palestinian states ...The partition plan (1947) gave 57% of Palestine to the Jewish state and 43.53% to the Arab state, with an international enclave around Jerusalem.


source = bbc

edit: crap, i've been sucked into another israel thread

[tralalala]

The First Zionist Congress met in Basle, Switzerland, to discuss the ideas set out in Theodor Herzl's 1896 book Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State). The Congress issued the Basle Programme to establish a "home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured by public law" and set up the World Zionist Organisation to work for that end.
In 1917, the British Foreign Minister Arthur Balfour committed Britain to work towards "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people", in a letter to leading Zionist Lord Rothschild. It became known as the Balfour Declaration.



Asher Ginzbourg was the head of the Spiritual Zionism. He said Jews are not yet ready for a state, as they are not spiritually and religiously ready for it. Jewish intellectualists should be sent to Israel to spark off Jewish learning etc. while Jews round the globe should "re-learn" their Judaism. Only after many years will the Jews be ready for a state.


Herzel didn't want a state before getting a legal international agreement, one he himself didn't get (apartfrom the area in Africa that was later cancelled by the Brits themselves because it was impossible anyway).

There were other Zionist groups too - the Socialist Zionism, religious Zionism, Synthetic Zionism (which eventually became the biggest group as it took ideals from Herzels Zionism, the Actual Zionism which called to come and live in Israel immediately, and ideals from Ginzbourgs Sipiritual Zionism. It was led by Weizmann if I am not mistaken....).


Anyway, Herzel did not lead the only Zionist group, there were many, with different ideals...




About the other source you gave.. I'll have to check that one up, because I am positive that the Arab state was meant to be bigger than the Jewish state.