A case of political "near-violence", I guess...

[j2k4]

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/northernirelandassembly/story/0,,1956753,00.html

By golly, he almost upset the apple cart, didn't he?

Do I understand from this that terrorists who don't get the message become "loyalists"?

I didn't see the word "criminal" appear anywhere in the Guardian's reportage.

Will they take his arthritis medication off the market if it is shown to cause derangement giving rise to terrorist tendencies at all (at all).

[JPaul]

If it's the same guy and I think it is he's as mad as a fucking snake.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2000/07/24/stone2x128.gif

He's out on licence on the early release program agreed in the Good Friday deal. He was serving about 700 years for various murders and attempted murders.

He's the guy who went to a funeral and attacked the people there with a handgun and grenades. No mask or fuck all, just walked in firing the gun.

[JPaul]

Oh and loyalist means "loyal to the monarchy and parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (my description)

It seems it doesn't extend to following it's laws or treaties.

[bigboab]

There is another one living in Troon, Ayrshire. He is nicknamed Mad Dog. It makes a farce of the law, that these killers are allowed to roam the streets with their heads held high.:(

[j2k4]

There is another one living in Troon, Ayrshire. He is nicknamed Mad Dog. It makes a farce of the law, that these killers are allowed to roam the streets with their heads held high.:(

Kinda what I thought.

Glad to see some agreement.

[JPaul]

We have discussed this before. It's an end / means thing.

It is entirely unpallatable for this to happen and for these people to walk the streets. However without it the peace process could not have been moved forward. In the end the evil done, releasing them, is outwighed by the good achieved, a sustainable peace and a degree of self governance.

Bearing in mind that they are released on licence and that can be revoked without having to make application to a Court. I believe that Stone has returned to jail without passing go or collecting £200. However I could be wrong in that.

It is to be hoped that the good people of NI have seen enough of a near normal life that they will reject any moves made by people like him. That they will not feel obliged to follow the lead of mentalists, based on nothing but sectarian bigotry and irrational hatred.

[bigboab]

Stone has appeared in court. His early release has been suspended and he must now serve his 630 year jail term.

I would be willing to bet he does not complete his sentence.:rolleyes:

[j2k4]

Stone has appeared in court. His early release has been suspended and he must now serve his 630 year jail term.

I would be willing to bet he does not complete his sentence.:rolleyes:

Both or either might have been his aim.

Is it worth knowing for sure?

I wonder at incidents like this, because I am well past any compulsion to analyze such behavior and see an appropriate use (not to push the thread off-track) for the death penalty here.

But that's just me, I'm sure. :)

[JPaul]

Stone has appeared in court. His early release has been suspended and he must now serve his 630 year jail term.

I would be willing to bet he does not complete his sentence.:rolleyes:

Both or either might have been his aim.

Is it worth knowing for sure?

I wonder at incidents like this, because I am well past any compulsion to analyze such behavior and see an appropriate use (not to push the thread off-track) for the death penalty here.

But that's just me, I'm sure. :)

It's not just you, however it isn't me.

The way Stone acts it is clear that he has no problem getting caught, like I said earlier he doesn't bother wearing any form of disguise when murdering people.

As you suggested that may in fact have been part of his plan, something to try to gather the other mentalists around him. There is no particular political way of doing it anymore. There is the NI Assembly now and it is dominated by the unionist and loyalist parties, so he attacks that in order to continue the sectarianism. That's a really loyalist way to behave.

It really does go to prove that hatred for others was their motivation, rather than support of their "own".

[Ava Estelle]

Both sides in this conflict have a lot to answer for, the IRA was responsible for the deaths of over three thousand people, and their killers were released too, so it's really not all that unusual that a nutcase like Stone should try to murder Adams and McGuinness.

[JPaul]

Both sides in this conflict have a lot to answer for, the IRA was responsible for the deaths of over three thousand people, and their killers were released too, so it's really not all that unusual that a nutcase like Stone should try to murder Adams and McGuinness.

I agree, one loads as bad as the other and it is unfortunate that we had to release any of them early. However I do think it was necessary for the peace process to have any chance.

[Ava Estelle]

I agree, one loads as bad as the other and it is unfortunate that we had to release any of them early. However I do think it was necessary for the peace process to have any chance.

Absolutely, but I'd hate to have been a victim of either side and see people responsible for murdering a member of my family released after a couple of years. It's much easier for those of us not personally touched by all this to accept it.

[JPaul]

I agree, one loads as bad as the other and it is unfortunate that we had to release any of them early. However I do think it was necessary for the peace process to have any chance.

Absolutely, but I'd hate to have been a victim of either side and see people responsible for murdering a member of my family released after a couple of years. It's much easier for those of us not personally touched by all this to accept it.

I couldn't agree more. However hopefully they see that things are better now and that there was no other way to get where they are today. The prospect of it not happening again must go some way to console them, much as they may never be able to forgive the murderers.

Like I said it's far from ideal, but surely the lesser of two evils.

[Ava Estelle]

I remember when this started again in 1969, my wife's uncle and family were living in the first street attacked by loyalists in Belfast, and were some of the first people to leave for safety in England. Up until that point, and the return to violence by the IRA, the sympathy lay with the Catholics, Paisley was hated in England as a loud mouthed arsehole. I can't help thinking that, had the IRA committed themselves to a campaign of civil disobedience, the shut down of services, strikes, etc., and a peaceful political campaign, there could well have been a united Ireland by now, almost 40 years later.

I'd like to see a referendum in England, Scotland and Wales asking the people if Ireland should be united, I think the answer would be a resounding yes. I'm not sure if the Irish people are really aware that it isn't the people of Britain who insist that Ulster remains part of the UK, but a minority of Irish.

[bigboab]

Britain has been releasing 'political prisoners' during most of my lifetime. India, Cyprus, Kenya, Malaya to name but a few. It is a sad but necessary part of peace processes.

[JPaul]

Another part of the Good Friday deal was that the Republic dropped it's claim on the north from it's constitution. There doesn't seem to be any prospect of Ireland being re-united.

That's why the whole Stone thing is so mental. The union will stay, the loyalists / unionists will control the Assembly. So Stone and his ilk should have everything they claim they wanted.

Why then does he still feel the need to murder, unless the whole thing was about hate and sectarianism and they will never be satisfied.

[Ava Estelle]

Why then does he still feel the need to murder, unless the whole thing was about hate and sectarianism and they will never be satisfied.

It does seem strange, apparently he was shouting something about wanting to kill Adams and McGuinness because they were killers. He must justify the six murders he was convicted of.

[JPaul]

Why then does he still feel the need to murder, unless the whole thing was about hate and sectarianism and they will never be satisfied.

It does seem strange, apparently he was shouting something about wanting to kill Adams and McGuinness because they were killers. He must justify the six murders he was convicted of.

Exactly

[j2k4]

Why then does he still feel the need to murder, unless the whole thing was about hate and sectarianism and they will never be satisfied.

Do you mean to say he might be addicted to terrorism.

Do you think others might be so affected.

[JPaul]

Why then does he still feel the need to murder, unless the whole thing was about hate and sectarianism and they will never be satisfied.

Do you mean to say he might be addicted to terrorism.

Do you think others might be so affected.

I hadn't thought of that but I s'pose it is possble.

I more meant that his hatred of the other side was more important than his love of his own side. That way even when they have everything they wanted he just can't stop hating.

The whole idea was a fresh start. We let you all out then you rule by compromise, you even get to be the majority, until people become more interested in politics and less in religion. However that's no use to him, he had to keep it going.

[Ava Estelle]

Why then does he still feel the need to murder, unless the whole thing was about hate and sectarianism and they will never be satisfied.

Do you mean to say he might be addicted to terrorism.

Do you think others might be so affected.

I think it may be more political than that, stability in Northern Ireland is seen by some as playing into the hands of the Catholics, and the eventual uniting of the island of Ireland. Included in the Good Friday agreement are a number of cross border agreements, including the creation of a North-South Ministerial Council and North-South Implementation Bodies to bring about cross-border cooperation in policy and programmes on a number of issues.

The main tenet of the agreement was that the constitutional future of Northern Ireland should be determined by the majority vote of its citizens. That means the people of Ulster could, if they so desired, vote to re-unite with the Republic. Stability in the north, and the creation of wealth through peace and cooperation with the Republic could well sway enough Protestant voters to see a better future in a united Ireland.

Housing estates for Catholics and Protestants are being planned across Ulster now after the success of new, unsegregated estates in Belfast. No-one is forced to live there, you must apply, and the waiting list is years long, proving the two sides can co-exist, and are willing to do so. One women who was interviewed from one of these estates said she had no desire to know what religion her neighbours were, and didn't care.

I see a bright future for Ulster, although there are still two important things that need to happen pretty quickly, Sinn Féin need to recognise the police force of the North, and Ian Paisley needs to meet his maker.

[lynx]

I see a bright future for Ulster, although there are still two important things that need to happen pretty quickly, Sinn Féin need to recognise the police force of the North, and Ian Paisley needs to meet his maker.
Amen to that, except that I understand that Paisley's son (Ian Jr.) is well on the way to replacing his father, and from what I gather he's as bad as his father, if not worse.

[j2k4]

I see a bright future for Ulster, although there are still two important things that need to happen pretty quickly, Sinn Féin need to recognise the police force of the North, and Ian Paisley needs to meet his maker.
Amen to that, except that I understand that Paisley's son (Ian Jr.) is well on the way to replacing his father, and from what I gather he's as bad as his father, if not worse.

Then I am right about the aspect of an irrational addiction.

So to speak.

Do you think this condition peculiar to Eire, or could it possibly exist in, say, the mid-east.

[lynx]

Amen to that, except that I understand that Paisley's son (Ian Jr.) is well on the way to replacing his father, and from what I gather he's as bad as his father, if not worse.

Then I am right about the aspect of an irrational addiction.

So to speak.

Do you think this condition peculiar to Eire, or could it possibly exist in, say, the mid-east.I think it is probably world wide, Europe, Middle East, Russia, USA, Indonesia. You name it, you will find nutters like these.

[bigboab]

Amen to that, except that I understand that Paisley's son (Ian Jr.) is well on the way to replacing his father, and from what I gather he's as bad as his father, if not worse.

Then I am right about the aspect of an irrational addiction.

So to speak.

Do you think this condition peculiar to Eire, or could it possibly exist in, say, the mid-east.

IMO it exists wherever there are factions of any religion.


Noun 1. http://img.tfd.com/dict/11/6751D-eire.gifEire - a republic consisting of 26 of 32 counties comprising the island of Ireland; achieved independence from the United Kingdom in 1921. It is now called the Republic Of Ireland. Not pointing out an error, only a misconception.:)

[Barbarossa]

I'd like to see a referendum in England, Scotland and Wales asking the people if Ireland should be united, I think the answer would be a resounding yes. I'm not sure if the Irish people are really aware that it isn't the people of Britain who insist that Ulster remains part of the UK, but a minority of Irish.

I'd like to see a referendum in England, Scotland and Wales on to whether we want to continue to have Ulster as part of the United Kingdom.

The sooner they become a completely independent state the better, then they can decide for themselves whether they want to unite with the Irish Republic (if they'll still have them), or whether they want to stay independent, or whether they want to blow themselves to shit.



I'm sick of it being "our problem". We've got more important problems now ffs, such as Iraq and Afghanistan :whistling

[bigboab]

I'd like to see a referendum in England, Scotland and Wales asking the people if Ireland should be united, I think the answer would be a resounding yes. I'm not sure if the Irish people are really aware that it isn't the people of Britain who insist that Ulster remains part of the UK, but a minority of Irish.

I'd like to see a referendum in England, Scotland and Wales on to whether we want to continue to have Ulster as part of the United Kingdom.

The sooner they become a completely independent state the better, then they can decide for themselves whether they want to unite with the Irish Republic (if they'll still have them), or whether they want to stay independent, or whether they want to blow themselves to shit.



I'm sick of it being "our problem". We've got more important problems now ffs, such as Iraq and Afghanistan :whistling

That woud be a big IF.:rolleyes: It would not help the souths unemployment stats, unless they hunted all the foreigners out of Dublin and gave the jobs to people from the north. The last time I was in Dublin I think I met about three Irish people.:lol:

[Barbarossa]

I lived in Dublin for 2 years. It's a terrific place, and the people are great. :happy:

Dublin is actually more British than Majorca.

[j2k4]

Then I am right about the aspect of an irrational addiction.

So to speak.

Do you think this condition peculiar to Eire, or could it possibly exist in, say, the mid-east.I think it is probably world wide, Europe, Middle East, Russia, USA, Indonesia. You name it, you will find nutters like these.

Hmmm.

I was led to believe the ones in the mid-east merely hated the west.

I am enlightened.





Then I am right about the aspect of an irrational addiction.

So to speak.

Do you think this condition peculiar to Eire, or could it possibly exist in, say, the mid-east.

IMO it exists wherever there are factions of any religion.


Noun 1. http://img.tfd.com/dict/11/6751D-eire.gifEire - a republic consisting of 26 of 32 counties comprising the island of Ireland; achieved independence from the United Kingdom in 1921. It is now called the Republic Of Ireland. Not pointing out an error, only a misconception.:)

Thank you, Robert. :)