Morality Question... [Archive]

oldmancan

05-15-2003, 07:34 PM

Interesting topic SD. I'm struggling with some of those issues too. I must admit I've been somewhat taken by the darkside. I want to be part of a community/society that is positive and constructive. I want my kids to be part of that world. I try to parent ... as I do...not just as I say.

So years ago we get a comp. No pirated anything...'cause besides being illegal there is the whole intellectual property issue. (Bring on the Flamin'). Thou shalt not steal...pretty simple. If someone shares with me great. But what if what they are sharing with me is not "theirs" to share?

The family rule was originally for software. So I come home one day and there's Napster. Well, how cool is that? I hear the dark side calling.

So we get into the tunes and let the morals slide abit.

Recently there was a post about legality (pick a day, any day - it seems) which got me thinking and researching. Had a family discussion. Found out that my wife had very strong feelings (negative) that she had been harbouring. My son was open to both sides, but prefers to not decide (can I dl while I think about it?).

I decided not to dl anymore copyrighted stuff. But that decision is based mostly on finding that post about making top quality mp3's. I love VBR, EAC and lame. I've been busy re-rip'n all my cd's.

So, right now we are sharing all my new rips and all my son's stuff. I deleted all my old 128 cbr mp3's. Under Canadian Law, I looking at a $1,000,000 per property (file) for "distributing". Works out to about 25 cents US.

I know that there are sites dedicated to high quality tunes. But I'm gonna stick to the idea of "fair use" and only have backups of material that I have legally purchased. As for the boyo he'll have to decide for himself. As for my wife she is happy to listen to a waaay smaller collection that she feels good about.

So far as k-lite we don't run it 24/7 much anymore. But it's usually running whenever the kid is on the comp. Once he takes a position we'll see about continuing to use k-lite or not.

I'm not judging anyone or promoting anything. I'm just telling my story. Pls keep the flaming in good humour. I believe in sharing and it seems to me that this forum shares the best commodity. Not mp3's, mpeg's nor software. Thoughts and information.

btw state your case if you want, but pls don't try to convince me about the evil greedy recording industry. You'd be preaching to the converted.

Peace

CrumbCat

05-15-2003, 07:38 PM

  :huh: This is a good topic as I am sure you know how I feel about the whole situation with the RIAA and Musicians...and how we need to find a way to work something out.

I myself do not have no kids.....but will go take a smoke break and think how I would handle this one.  :huh:

FuNkY CaPrIcOrN - Very funny....."a smoke break" :blink: I got it.

ShareDaddy - My and my wife's first child is due this June, and I have been thinking about this very issue.....along with many others, for obvious reasons. But since I'm just beginning with 'fatherhood', I have the advantage of seeing what those in you situation do in matters such as this, take those into consideration, and then make my own decisions a few years from now.

Sorry I cannot be of help to you here.

Good luck with your fatherly responsibilities....today's, tomorrow's and all those to come.

Tchau!

Ynhockey

05-15-2003, 07:40 PM

I don't have children but i was in 7th grade (or was it 8th?) when Napster shut down and the teacher did mention something about it being illegal... BUT the major opinion of the kids at school was that Napster's great and RIAA are the bad guys. True, sometimes kids look up to teachers the most, but from my experience, kids take advice from other kids far more willingly than from adults. I'm now a teenager and was lucky enough to be in a more-or-less mature age by the time that P2P was bashed and deemed bad... and i think that your kids will support P2P as well if they understand the concept of it - and since you say they are computer-literate, they should know best of all that P2P helps ppl more than it hurts them. Even if they think you're doing something wrong, i think that whenever they reach 13 or so (assuming they're not there yet), they'll understand that P2P isn't as bad as their teachers told them.

Therefore, i suggest that you look at this as a phase - like puberty, only an unnatural phase that was caused by the greedy RIAA (assuming, of course, that your kids ever thing P2P is wrong). This phase will pass, because, even though P2P has its disadvantages, i can't understand how a person in their right mind would actively oppose it - it's not stealing, after all. More like forgery.

Oh and don't worry that you're setting a bad example - i don't know about your family but in mine, and most other families i know, the parents aren't exactly perfect and they don't hide it, and hope that their children will understand their flaws.

My 2 cents...

ShareDaddy

05-15-2003, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by Gurahl@15 May 2003 - 13:58
The schools are teaching your kids about filesharing? Wow, I didn't know the RIAA and such could reach this far! I don't have kids and I must confess I never thought about how I'll handle this subject and some others like weed... Thanks, you just ruined my sleep, since I'm gonna spend the night on this! If I ever reach a conclusion I'll let you know...
You would not believe what is being taught in today’s schools, my son's are being taught or told things like they are not allowed to call any of their friends that are girls "girlfriends".

They are being taught computers in pre-school and kindergarten, heck all three of my sons are better at using a mouse than my wife. Some of the new things are cool, however more and more things that were every day occurrences or goings on while I was in school (IE kissing, fighting, name calling, threats) are becoming illegal and will in current times cause expulsions or at a minimum suspensions ranging from a day to a month.

Now I agree that after the shooting incidents in schools over the last 5 years or so that some rules needed to be put in place, however I think too many rules may impact the children’s overall development.
I mean for the most part kids of my generation (born in the late sixties) all turned out OK, I mean I do not recall a school shooting or other high profile serious incident in all of my 13 years of public schooling. What is causing this? It certainly is not calling your friends that are girls, girlfriends.

FuNkY CaPrIcOrN

05-15-2003, 07:48 PM

;) I want to say something...but then the thread will just get thrown in a whole new direction....so no more post from me on this.Cause I could post all day long about filesharing...our community and who is right and wrong.

Wish you look ShareDaddy.

tianup

05-15-2003, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by ShareDaddy@15 May 2003 - 19:44
I do not know how many of you actually have children, however as I have 3 and they are becoming totally computer and internet literate I have ran across a few concerns lately. So far none of my boys think what I do here on the forum and KL is morally or ethicly wrong, however it is becoming evident that this is not to far off.

I am totally opposed to teaching my children bad things or things that the rest of the free world has chosen to affix the dreaded "theif" label to. The schools are teaching them that filesharing such as we participate in is legally wrong and therefore subject to scrutiny and severe penalties. I however feel opposed and or at least not fully in agreement with this type of thinking and would like to know if anyone else has come across a similar predicament.

I look forward to your replies.
Dude - My daughter is only 7, so this hasn't really come up yet (though I have thought about it). However, as a musician/songwriter and producer/engineer, I deal with the issue everyday with industry peers, clients and friends. To be honest, most people I know (including songwriters and artists) don't give a fuck either way, because they understand what's going on. The record and film industries have been playing their games too long, and artists, songwriters, producers, actors, etc. who are intelligent about their careers and understand the evolution of the industry are still getting paid, if not more then they were before.

Before I get carried away (back to the point!), I'm sure you've had many circumstances as a parent already where your beliefs and those of the school or society in general just don't meet. How about when your kid gets beat up, or beats someone else up in self defense - is that wrong or right? I personally believe in absolute honesty (mostly ;) ) with my daughter - it's the only way to teach her honesty. So file-sharing is explained like this (the truth, for me): I dl specific files to for specific reasons:

1. Single songs - I've already spent so much money in my life on CD's for one song, that it only makes sense - I'm not rich or stupid - however it appears single songs can now be purchased....

2. To find new music - single song rules apply - if I find an artist I really like, I buy their CD (eventually)

3. To build my library of public domain music - traditional, classical, dead artists (sometimes) etc.

4. TV shows have already made their money, and I only dl the odd thing - if it wasn't for all this new DVD shit it wouldn't matter- who cares

5. Same for films, as I very rarely dl film - I don't have a DVD burner yet, and VCD's won't play in my PS2 (Ispend too much time on my computer NFW am I watching full films on it except on the rare occasion.

6. As for books now that they are available, same as 2 - if I dig the stuff I'll buy it - when I read a book I want to read a BOOK.

I don't feel guilty about any of these things, so....

To me it's the same as swearing. I swear like a sailor - but NEVER, not once have I sworn around my daughter, because at her age, she will get in trouble for doing it, and she's too young to understand the "time and place" philosophy. That same rule applies to everything in parenting - if they can get in trouble for what you teach them, and are too young to understand the subjectivity - don't teach it to them. If they can make an objective decision, treat them as such - give them your reason and let them make their own decisions. At what age do you let your kids know it is okay to smoke pot, have sex? Base your decisions on their capacity to understand them. And if you think something could damage them, err on the side of caution. Kids are real easy to screw up, not so easy to fix. Just my 2 cents worth. Good Luck. :blink:

J'Pol

05-15-2003, 08:23 PM

It's not really a complex issue.

I am not sure which particular school subject is being taught, in which file sharing is being discussed. However my children are aware that teachers have their own sets of prejudices which effect them when teaching any subject. This may effect history, geography, modern studies, ethics, politics etc.

My children have been taught that teachers are not always right, they are only human like the rest of us. They have also been taught that their parents are not always right. We discuss things which go on in their lives, when they are ready to discuss them. That's usually because they bring the subject up, though not in an obvious manner. They know how we feel about things, they also know that their mother and I do not always agree and that it is OK for them not to agree.

We encourage them to discuss things and to make up their own minds, but to respect the fact that other people are entitled to their own opinions. They may think that what you are doing is wrong, however as long as they respect that you do not, then that is healthy for both of you.

Who knows they may even agree with you that what you are doing is not wrong.

Buffalo

05-15-2003, 08:28 PM

QUOTE,
KL is morally or ethicly wrong, however it is becoming evident that this is not to far off.

I am totally opposed to teaching my children bad things or things that the rest of the free world has chosen to affix the dreaded "theif" label to. The schools are teaching them that filesharing such as we participate in is legally wrong and therefore subject to scrutiny and severe penalties.

AS a good friend of one of the founders of the information superhighway, The intention of the internet was free to all, it's only since the over take of companies, that it's gone to pot, Only today AOL has advertised their new AOL 8.0 and said to share.
The internet has lost it's original meaning.
Greed and Pofit has taken over what was so beautiful.
Once the thumbs are in thats it.
Will it ever become what it was intended for once again.
My feelings are sad on this subject, It's total greed that has caused this today.

ShareDaddy

05-15-2003, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by oldmancan@15 May 2003 - 14:34
Interesting topic SD. I'm struggling with some of those issues too. I must admit I've been somewhat taken by the darkside. I want to be part of a community/society that is positive and constructive. I want my kids to be part of that world. I try to parent ... as I do...not just as I say.

So years ago we get a comp. No pirated anything...'cause besides being illegal there is the whole intellectual property issue. (Bring on the Flamin'). Thou shalt not steal...pretty simple. If someone shares with me great. But what if what they are sharing with me is not "theirs" to share?

The family rule was originally for software. So I come home one day and there's Napster. Well, how cool is that? I hear the dark side calling.

So we get into the tunes and let the morals slide abit.

Recently there was a post about legality (pick a day, any day - it seems) which got me thinking and researching. Had a family discussion. Found out that my wife had very strong feelings (negative) that she had been harbouring. My son was open to both sides, but prefers to not decide (can I dl while I think about it?).

I decided not to dl anymore copyrighted stuff. But that decision is based mostly on finding that post about making top quality mp3's. I love VBR, EAC and lame. I've been busy re-rip'n all my cd's.

So, right now we are sharing all my new rips and all my son's stuff. I deleted all my old 128 cbr mp3's. Under Canadian Law, I looking at a $1,000,000 per property (file) for "distributing". Works out to about 25 cents US.

I know that there are sites dedicated to high quality tunes. But I'm gonna stick to the idea of "fair use" and only have backups of material that I have legally purchased. As for the boyo he'll have to decide for himself. As for my wife she is happy to listen to a waaay smaller collection that she feels good about.

So far as k-lite we don't run it 24/7 much anymore. But it's usually running whenever the kid is on the comp. Once he takes a position we'll see about continuing to use k-lite or not.

I'm not judging anyone or promoting anything. I'm just telling my story. Pls keep the flaming in good humour. I believe in sharing and it seems to me that this forum shares the best commodity. Not mp3's, mpeg's nor software. Thoughts and information.

btw state your case if you want, but pls don't try to convince me about the evil greedy recording industry. You'd be preaching to the converted.

Peace
You have stated a lot of the same things I have been thinking and I appreciate that. I would hope that no one individual on this forum takes anything you have stated as flame-worthy. Well put and I totally understand.

My foret into this subject started when my children would speak about my p2p habits openly with anyone at anytime. One such incident was with a group of fellow church goers and I was somewhat distraught over the whole incident at the time and the more time I spent thinking about it the more clouded my entire views of the subject became. I had to literally step back and examine my position and refer back to a lot of child hood based memories of mine regarding my parents and their habits, good or bad to try and make sense out of the entire issue. To this point, I am still at a loss as to what I should do.

I enjoy the whole p2p experience, I have always been a sharer as far back as I can recall (speaking of pre-internet, in person types of sharing). Funny thing is I would never even thought of copying any of my 8 tracks (had quite the collection in my pre-teens), cassettes (huge collection in my teens) or CD's (started buying them in 1988 or 1989) until the Internet came along. Therefore, as you have stated I was serenaded by the dark side and bought it hook, line and sinker.

Now as the years go by, I guess I am searching for the force or power with which to once and for all figure this issue out and get on with my meager, albeit wonderfully expansive existence. If you follow me, that is.

Rat Faced

05-15-2003, 08:41 PM

Sharedaddy, it seems to me there are two seperate issues:

1/ Morality

2/ Legality

Laws exist, but are not necessarily right and moral.

Some, such as those concerning Murder and Theft are obviously Moral. They are there to protect a Society from those that would harm it.

Others are subjective; and must be viewed in the context of the society to which they pertane. For example Alcohol in Suadi Arabia is illegal, and due to their religious beliefs it may be 'moral' to have prohibition there, whereas the USA has already shown that it is not acceptable in its own country. This is an example of a 'moral' Law......remember 'morals' are not Universal in nature; what is moral one place isnt in another and vise versa; it is a product of the local beliefs.

Then there are Laws that are left over and still exist which have outlived their usefulness; even if they made sence at the time they were written. For example a Taxi in the UK (A Hackney Carriage) is still required to carry a Bail of Hay (with which to feed the horse).........obviously these laws are broken all the time, as they are rediculous in this day and age. Its immoral to still have them on the books, not to break them.

And then there is the grey areas, such as filesharing.

To me, the Law is an Ass as far as these laws are concerned; and i have no qualms about breaking them. They are used to keep Fat Cats rich. They do not protect Society, indeed they encourage Greed which damages Society. Are the Laws therefore 'Moral'? I personally do not think so.

Its GOOD to teach your kids to respect the Law, and follow it while young.

However, I encourage my oldest to Know the Law; and know the difference between Right and Wrong....not blindly follow it.

I would much rather he did what he felt was RIGHT than to do what is LEGAL.

He knows that if he is caught breaking the Law, then he is going to be punished. He also knows that if he can show that it is the Law that is at fault, I will stick by him all the way, as usually the only way to get rid of these Laws is to fight them.

DarthInsinuate

05-15-2003, 08:57 PM

i would agree with Rat-Faced

if your kids think filesharing is completely immoral then you shouldn't encourage them, it'll confuse their view of right and wrong, especially if they're really young

I would much rather he did what he felt was RIGHT than to do what is LEGAL

WeeMouse

05-15-2003, 09:29 PM

I don't think it's wrong.

Yeah, I'm taught in Administration about all the legal stuff, but as far as I'm concerned, why shouldn't i? I like the band Hanson (no giggles please!) and the only way I can get their music is over Kazaa. However, as soon as the albums become availabe over here - I buy them!

i don't have kids, but I have 3 nephews and as soon as they are old enough I will teach them all about file-sharing etc (with a little help from Lamsey). They can make up their own minds on it, but I think it may help if they know all of the facts!

The real thieves tho are the greedy record company type-people who can make CDs for pennies and sell them for many many pounds over here.

So there! :P

Skweeky

05-15-2003, 09:37 PM

well...I don't have kids myself, but I have one niece that stays over at my place like every two weeks. She's 13 now and she starts to realize vertain things concerning drugs, alcohol, sex (not filesharing, she's not into that stuff, but it's the same idea, right?). She has all these questions that she is afraid of to ask at home. Which is totally understandable, cause she knows her parents won't tell her the (full) truth. So she comes to me....
Over the last months I have talked to her about excessive drinking, boyfriends and smoking marihuana....I told her of my own experiences with these things as well as the advantages and disadvantages and I have tried to present it as objective as possible.
I know she looks up to me, but I think I have done a good job here. She likes to drink a few beers, just like me, but she hates drugs, where I use drugs on regular bases.
What I'm trying to say is: just try to present things as they truly are and teach your kids just to have an opinion of their own, as Rat Faced said: teach them to know the difference between right and wrong.

imported_stg1123

05-15-2003, 10:04 PM

Interesting topic which applies to me as well. As you can see from my sig my son is still quite young (and cute) and if you check my website I am a new music artist (jewish jazz funk rock). Many people (who now my sharing habits) have asked me how I'd feel if my music was being shared all over the net and the obvious answer is I'd be delighted because I'm not famous yet :D but I do feel thateven if was losing money on sales I wouldn't mind because the thing we are all forgetting here is that there are two opposing forces at play here. The first being Art and the second being Money. Any true artist (although they have to live) is involved in art for the sake of the art and not for the money. And this theory doesn't stick only to music and films but also to software (thats why all new developers make freeware versions etc. because they are showing off their art as well) There is no greater feeling for the artist than to be appreciated for their art and I believe I can speak here for all the musicians and actors and even directors in the world ( the once that didnt sell their souls to the devil :ph34r: ) I think that I'm hitting on an important point which extends from what Rat Faced was saying before:

Sharedaddy, it seems to me there are two seperate issues:
1/ Morality
2/ Legality

Ultimately these laws are protecting the wallets of the big guys and not the artists who believe me are getting every penny they deserve and more. And here's a legal conundrum. What exactly is being stolen....bytes. And these bytes are so hard to actually get hold of in a substancial sense of the word that one glitch (happened to me a couple of months ago on a brand new 80Gb Maxtor) and all those stolen bytes can be lost to oblivion. Furthermore a quick government strength wipe can incinerate them in a matter of moments so that they might have never existed. So the theft that we are actually discussing is intangible at the least and does not compute to going into a local DVD shop and leaving with a couple of extra DVD's down your pants :D

I dont want to waffle too much but it is not an easy topic to fully cover all the angles ( and cover up as well as is clearly the case if we bring in commercial software developers into the discussion). Maybe on a moral level the problem could arise if the particular artist actually made open statements that they refused to allow their music / drama to be shared. Ultimately I cant really come to any conclusions with regards to how I would deal with this for my kids because well the honest truth is I hope he doesn't take after me sitting in front of a computer all day, maybe it will just be the malignant tumor of our generation and by the time he gets to my age theyll have gone past all of this (which is probably true anyway if you think about it because in 27 years they will be laughing at our 1.5 meg adsl lines.

Anyway I hope I've brought some true angles to the discussion and enjoy my site and my music if you clicked on my webpage.

Buffalo

05-15-2003, 10:23 PM

Will the internet ever become what it was intended for once again? <_<

MagicNakor

05-15-2003, 11:25 PM

If I'm not mistaken, I think the internet was originally meant to be used by scientists and scholars only, to have an easy way to share information. Then it got commericalized and available to Joe Public.

That's OT anyway. ;)

:ninja:

Buffalo

05-15-2003, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by MagicNakor@15 May 2003 - 23:25
If I'm not mistaken, I think the internet was originally meant to be used by scientists and scholars only, to have an easy way to share information. Then it got commericalized and available to Joe Public.

That's OT anyway. ;)

:ninja:
Quote from my post on page one, "AS a good friend of one of the founders of the information superhighway, The intention of the internet was free to all, it's only since the take over of companies"
If we think it's bad now what will it be like in a few years time.
Barry @ http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Pumpencum/celebs_are_us_n00b.gif

ShareDaddy

05-16-2003, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by Rat Faced@15 May 2003 - 15:41
Sharedaddy, it seems to me there are two seperate issues:

1/ Morality

2/ Legality

Laws exist, but are not necessarily right and moral.

Some, such as those concerning Murder and Theft are obviously Moral. They are there to protect a Society from those that would harm it.

Others are subjective; and must be viewed in the context of the society to which they pertane. For example Alcohol in Suadi Arabia is illegal, and due to their religious beliefs it may be 'moral' to have prohibition there, whereas the USA has already shown that it is not acceptable in its own country. This is an example of a 'moral' Law......remember 'morals' are not Universal in nature; what is moral one place isnt in another and vise versa; it is a product of the local beliefs.

Then there are Laws that are left over and still exist which have outlived their usefulness; even if they made sence at the time they were written. For example a Taxi in the UK (A Hackney Carriage) is still required to carry a Bail of Hay (with which to feed the horse).........obviously these laws are broken all the time, as they are rediculous in this day and age. Its immoral to still have them on the books, not to break them.

And then there is the grey areas, such as filesharing.

To me, the Law is an Ass as far as these laws are concerned; and i have no qualms about breaking them. They are used to keep Fat Cats rich. They do not protect Society, indeed they encourage Greed which damages Society. Are the Laws therefore 'Moral'? I personally do not think so.

Its GOOD to teach your kids to respect the Law, and follow it while young.

However, I encourage my oldest to Know the Law; and know the difference between Right and Wrong....not blindly follow it.

I would much rather he did what he felt was RIGHT than to do what is LEGAL.

He knows that if he is caught breaking the Law, then he is going to be punished. He also knows that if he can show that it is the Law that is at fault, I will stick by him all the way, as usually the only way to get rid of these Laws is to fight them.
Totally agree with your statements, that is how it is being handled at the moment, however I did get a few hints on what should be done when and if my sons cross the moral border on me. I want to raise them as moral and ethically sober as possible, this leads me to my current predicament. They currently do not think it is a crime, however I am also trying to convinve them that it is nothing to be flaunted either. Hopefully this helps straighten out my position.

Thanks for all of the replies thus far people, they are very welcome and so far have helped me at least understand where I want to go and possibly how to get there.

ShareDaddy

05-16-2003, 01:53 AM

Also to clear something up you have to understand I not only download files of several types (movies music software) I am also adding to the massive collection (movie-wise if you did not notice my string), this in turn is where most of my dilemma lies. I am not only a user I am actually doing things that in other circumstances I may punish my children for.

insanebassman

05-16-2003, 06:35 AM

I am glad old school sharing was not fucked with the way we are... What is the wheel idea was not allowed to be shared? What is the Lever was not put to so many innovative uses after the idea was shared... Hell, even cultivation of food just a systematic process that was shared and duplicated. Sharing makes healthier product through a saturation of users, makes a healthier market and provides a nice underground market for bands and inventors. Ethics are all situational. Knowledge is not something to be hoarded and hidden away. Granted, having access to a movie two days prior to theatrical release will not make the world a better place, but neither will hiding books and Software in prison cell warehouses.

My point is kinda vauge here and my spelling sux. I hope you all understand what I am trying to say....

Grim

05-16-2003, 08:16 AM

No matter what you teach or tell kids they will always chose there own path in life. You tell a kid not to do something & what do they do, THEY GO & DO IT ANYWAY. So to my way of thinking the schools & the RIAA are wasting there time telling kids this.

MagicNakor

05-16-2003, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by CELEBS_ARE_US+16 May 2003 - 00:46--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CELEBS_ARE_US @ 16 May 2003 - 00:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--MagicNakor@15 May 2003 - 23:25
If I'm not mistaken, I think the internet was originally meant to be used by scientists and scholars only, to have an easy way to share information. Then it got commericalized and available to Joe Public.

That's OT anyway. ;)

:ninja:
Quote from my post on page one, "AS a good friend of one of the founders of the information superhighway, The intention of the internet was free to all, it's only since the take over of companies"
If we think it's bad now what will it be like in a few years time.
Barry @ http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Pumpencum/celebs_are_us_n00b.gif [/b][/quote]
Read in a tech mag (forget which one) about a year ago that they're going to build a second internet and keep it strictly for scholars/scientists. ;) Wonder how it'll turn out.

:ninja:

tennine

05-16-2003, 08:33 AM

Just a short word to walk the same way many already did...
What yous story makes me think about SD is some of these old opposition between scholar lessons and life lessons... don't forget school's role: teach children about legality and rules to respect. This MUST be completed with personnal evolution due to discussions every elsewhere (at home with parents or on party with friends...)
School teaches your boys filesharing is illegal so what? It's quite important for them to know about what they may risk doing it even if we all feel a different way about this ;) .
Afterall you'll see them take their own statement based upon what they heard from every sources (school of course but your own experience too and not in a minor way :D ) and i really think that's the important point...
By the way if they don't make the good choice you should bring them in there to discuss the point :P

PS: forgive my shitty frenchie grammar...

angellynn26

05-16-2003, 09:48 AM

I think it's important that all of you parents out there keep one important fact in mind...parenting is each to their own in this world. The need for persons in the American society to change their opinions just to match those of it's government and top 1% is absolutely ridiculous and suggests we are not intelligent enough to have our own ideas of what is right or wrong. Some laws are there to actually protect us from harm, but this country has gone overboard when it comes to invading the private homes and lives of its citizens.
Everyone always says "What would our founding fathers think?" I'll tell you what they would think....they would say that we have become the very England we ran away from...they would roll over in their graves at the magnitude of corruption, laws and invasions of privacy that the people have allowed this government to institute upon us. Stop worrying about what 'society' says is right and wrong about an issue like this and start worrying about what YOU think. I wonder what it's like to go through life just accepting everything you're told as 'the way things should be'. Changes in society do not have to result in changes in yourself unless you really can't think for yourself.
Oh, and for the love of pete...don't call this a MORAL issue. There is no morality issue here. If file sharing bothers you, you should look up the way the government has stolen from us our right to freedom of information. Look at how they have changed the length of copyrights to benefit big hollywood movie studios, bill gates, and all corporations. Once you see how much our rights have been stripped from us over the years, file sharing won't seem like a crime at all, but rather a RIGHT. So, advice for the kids...get your history in writing and explain to them how Corporate America lobbies and campaign finances our rights right down the toilet....then explain to them why their mommy, daddy, and grandparents sit back and watch as corrupt politicians get rich off of warping our rights to suit their own needs. There's a REAL morality issue for you!
Morality, in and of itself, IS a religious concept. Therefore, it CANNOT be compromised, changed, or altered within a change in social opinion or laws imposed upon us by a government institution. It's truly sad when the two become so intertwined....it really makes an intelligent person wonder - what ever happened to seperation of church and state? I'm a follower of Christ, but I follow Him because of my moral obligation to He who gave His life for me. Quite the opposite, I follow the laws of this country because of the "social contract" (look it up if you don't know what it is)...in a nutshell - "self-preservation". My moral contract with the Lord is absolutely non-negotiable, whereas, my social contract with this society is subject to much negotiation...per the contract agreement - The Constitution. Finally, I don't think God opposes file sharing...nuf said.

ShareDaddy

05-16-2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by angellynn26@16 May 2003 - 04:48
I think it's important that all of you parents out there keep one important fact in mind...parenting is each to their own in this world. The need for persons in the American society to change their opinions just to match those of it's government and top 1% is absolutely ridiculous and suggests we are not intelligent enough to have our own ideas of what is right or wrong. Some laws are there to actually protect us from harm, but this country has gone overboard when it comes to invading the private homes and lives of its citizens.
Everyone always says "What would our founding fathers think?" I'll tell you what they would think....they would say that we have become the very England we ran away from...they would roll over in their graves at the magnitude of corruption, laws and invasions of privacy that the people have allowed this government to institute upon us. Stop worrying about what 'society' says is right and wrong about an issue like this and start worrying about what YOU think. I wonder what it's like to go through life just accepting everything you're told as 'the way things should be'. Changes in society do not have to result in changes in yourself unless you really can't think for yourself.
Oh, and for the love of pete...don't call this a MORAL issue. There is no morality issue here. If file sharing bothers you, you should look up the way the government has stolen from us our right to freedom of information. Look at how they have changed the length of copyrights to benefit big hollywood movie studios, bill gates, and all corporations. Once you see how much our rights have been stripped from us over the years, file sharing won't seem like a crime at all, but rather a RIGHT. So, advice for the kids...get your history in writing and explain to them how Corporate America lobbies and campaign finances our rights right down the toilet....then explain to them why their mommy, daddy, and grandparents sit back and watch as corrupt politicians get rich off of warping our rights to suit their own needs. There's a REAL morality issue for you!
Morality, in and of itself, IS a religious concept. Therefore, it CANNOT be compromised, changed, or altered within a change in social opinion or laws imposed upon us by a government institution. It's truly sad when the two become so intertwined....it really makes an intelligent person wonder - what ever happened to seperation of church and state? I'm a follower of Christ, but I follow Him because of my moral obligation to He who gave His life for me. Quite the opposite, I follow the laws of this country because of the "social contract" (look it up if you don't know what it is)...in a nutshell - "self-preservation". My moral contract with the Lord is absolutely non-negotiable, whereas, my social contract with this society is subject to much negotiation...per the contract agreement - The Constitution. Finally, I don't think God opposes file sharing...nuf said.
Well you hit it on the head, if you have read all of my posts in this string you would note that the only morality issue for me is the fact that stealing is immoral and should the school's continue thier assualt on filesharing it may in fact make my children think I am stealing. Now I also agree that my children will learn things in school and elsewhere that are not in direct alignment with what I am teaching them, however my main goal with this topic was to generate information that will help me resolve these type of issues as they come up, without my having to re-invent the wheel.

Thanks to everyone so far for the replies.

insanebassman

05-16-2003, 03:39 PM

AMEN Angellynn26!

ToraBoraDweller

05-16-2003, 04:32 PM

Legallity means nothing to kids !!
Law is an invention by the 'haves' to protect their property,all of Rat-faced examles apply.
(In America a famous saying goes I believe : possession is 9/10 of the law).
Now morality is altogether a different issue ;here a lot is determined by the
community you live in and how far you are willing to adapt.
It's good to teach children how both sides of the coin look and then hope for the best.
Also it would be nice to instill on them the thought that one shouldn't want to have
everything!
But we should all look into a mirror from time to time.
As for schools : be watchful indeed what they try to teach your children,too many parents
leave all too many issues solely in the hands of teachers.

Schmiggy_JK23

05-16-2003, 04:40 PM

sharedaddy.. when i was younger... one thing i remember hearing alot from my elders was this...

"do as I say, not as I do"... i think in a sense, it applies here. we are all flawed as people, human beings, etc, and will do things we arent supposed to...

Yes we should lead by example, our children, our friends, etc... But being your kids... they have to realize, at some point, a difference in what you do, and what you tell them... for instance, say you drink a beer... with dinner or something, or after a hard days work... you tell them not to drink a beer, becauses its not appropriate for them, this is one of those instances. Just because you do something, it doesnt make it appropirate for them to do same thing... and in time, they should be able to make their "own" opinions on what is legal, good, moral, in the filesharing regard, instead of the schools...

untill that time... though it may seem as a cop out... i think the do as I say, not as I do, applies, if they start questioning your morality.

ToraBoraDweller

05-16-2003, 04:57 PM

@Schmiggy_JK23

untill that time... though it may seem as a cop out... i think the do as I say, not as I do, applies, if they start questioning your morality.

?Does that ever work? :( :lol:

(What kid likes to be like his parents)

j2k4

05-16-2003, 08:04 PM

Boy, lots of straight-up stuff on this thread. In my opinion, the quality of expression on this subject specifically, and other such matters in general, is on a higher plane than in other forums. A tip of the hat to all!!

I am of the "I can't justify my criminal/unethical/immoral behavior" crowd-but, if pressed, I would say the following:

I suffer from the same weakness many of us do-"I just can't help it"-and this is not aided by the fact I'm a "law-and-order conservative, blah,blah,blah,...", but if I put on my thinking cap, I would excuse myself by saying I have spent enough on albums and CDs over the years to finance the collective debt of several small African countries. I would feel better about this if my music collection were a truer reflection of the money I've invested in it. If it all went up in the smoke of a fire, I'm pretty sure insurance would look for a way to devalue it. In sum, I feel I've gotten the short end of the stick, monetarily.

When I look at the business of merchandising, I can't help but see strategies developed and business conducted based entirely on patent law, the theory of public domain, the passage of time, planned obsolescence, monopolistic (Microsoft) marketing techniques, etc.

Then I look at my shared file; I have exactly ONE file that is less than five years old, perhaps ten that are less than ten years old, and the majority of the remainder is in excess of twenty-five years old.

Whether or not this line of reasoning could be digested by a child, I wouldn't hazard a guess.

As a result of this thread and the short mental exercise it prompted, I feel much better, though that won't mean much if I am ever called to court. :lol:

ToraBoraDweller

05-16-2003, 08:23 PM

Music and acting are amongst mankinds oldest skills and MEANT to be shared !
Yes it's as simple as that!
And real artists who are gifted with a truly creative mind also can find themselves with this.

Ynhockey

05-16-2003, 08:26 PM

Well, i just want to say again, file sharing is NOT stealing from anyone.

Let me give a theoretical situation... let's say that you are magical like Harry Potter or something, and you can duplicate any object you want. Now, you go to the nearest convenience store and buy a bottle of RC Cola. Then you make about 1000 copies of this bottle and give it to 1000 people. They try the coke, some like it and ask you for more, some hate it, and some like it but go buy their own.

So, how did those who ask you for more steal from the coke company and/or the convenience store ? How did you steal from the store/company? After all, you bought your coke, you caused many others to buy coke, and those who asked you for more would most likely not buy RC Cola anyway. Now, they asked you for more - they know you're giving it for free and they sorta want coke, but not if they have to pay for it. So, they either get it for free from you, or they don't get it at all - how's that wrong ? Some of those who asked for more are poor - how's being poor and asking for something free that would otherwise cost money wrong ? After all, you have the right to refuse.

Now, this is exactly like filesharing. Someone buys a program and gives it for free to many ppl online. Some dl it, like it, and buy it, some dl it, like it but not enough to buy it, however, they wouldnt've bought the product anyway. Some can't afford the product. Only a really really small fraction of these people are the freedy bastards who can afford the product, like it enough to buy a legal copy, but still insist on not buying it, because it's free online. How are the others stealing from the RIAA ? They aren't.

Now, ask yourself. You have a collection of movies/software/music. You like some of it, and like some less. How much would all this cost (legally) ? I don't know how big your collection is, but my estimate would be around $100000 US. Are you that rich ? No. Therefore, you fall into the "can't afford" category. Did you buy any movies at all ? Did you go to theatres ? Most likely, yes. That's why what you're doing isn't really wrong 'cause you wouldn't spend $100000 on this stuff anyway. And the RIAA isn't exactly losing money just 'cause you downloaded music, if you wouldn't buy it anyway.

That's the message that you have to deliver to your kids - that it isn't really wrong. Besides, kids in North America are growing up rotten these days because of school - in Vancouver, Canada where i lived once, there were a bunch of kids from different countries. All the Europeans were good ppl, in a sense, except a few. The Canadians ? Well, i guess i should shut up about it... they had no morals at all, couldn't tell right from wrong at all, didn't know what honour and loyalty are, etc. etc. - so who, besides the parents, can teach these morals to the kids ? No one. Sure, the kids can teach themselves, but as i said before, kids are heavily influence by their fellows. Therefore, if the whole class thinks one thing (for example, that piracy is wrong), then one of them isn't suddenly going to change his/her opinion at least until high school, where kids start to have varied opinions on everything.

I hope you make the right decision, whatever it may be.

ShareDaddy

05-16-2003, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Ynhockey@16 May 2003 - 15:26
Well, i just want to say again, file sharing is NOT stealing from anyone.

Let me give a theoretical situation... let's say that you are magical like Harry Potter or something, and you can duplicate any object you want. Now, you go to the nearest convenience store and buy a bottle of RC Cola. Then you make about 1000 copies of this bottle and give it to 1000 people. They try the coke, some like it and ask you for more, some hate it, and some like it but go buy their own.

So, how did those who ask you for more steal from the coke company and/or the convenience store ? How did you steal from the store/company? After all, you bought your coke, you caused many others to buy coke, and those who asked you for more would most likely not buy RC Cola anyway. Now, they asked you for more - they know you're giving it for free and they sorta want coke, but not if they have to pay for it. So, they either get it for free from you, or they don't get it at all - how's that wrong ? Some of those who asked for more are poor - how's being poor and asking for something free that would otherwise cost money wrong ? After all, you have the right to refuse.

Now, this is exactly like filesharing. Someone buys a program and gives it for free to many ppl online. Some dl it, like it, and buy it, some dl it, like it but not enough to buy it, however, they wouldnt've bought the product anyway. Some can't afford the product. Only a really really small fraction of these people are the freedy bastards who can afford the product, like it enough to buy a legal copy, but still insist on not buying it, because it's free online. How are the others stealing from the RIAA ? They aren't.

Now, ask yourself. You have a collection of movies/software/music. You like some of it, and like some less. How much would all this cost (legally) ? I don't know how big your collection is, but my estimate would be around $100000 US. Are you that rich ? No. Therefore, you fall into the "can't afford" category. Did you buy any movies at all ? Did you go to theatres ? Most likely, yes. That's why what you're doing isn't really wrong 'cause you wouldn't spend $100000 on this stuff anyway. And the RIAA isn't exactly losing money just 'cause you downloaded music, if you wouldn't buy it anyway.

That's the message that you have to deliver to your kids - that it isn't really wrong. Besides, kids in North America are growing up rotten these days because of school - in Vancouver, Canada where i lived once, there were a bunch of kids from different countries. All the Europeans were good ppl, in a sense, except a few. The Canadians ? Well, i guess i should shut up about it... they had no morals at all, couldn't tell right from wrong at all, didn't know what honour and loyalty are, etc. etc. - so who, besides the parents, can teach these morals to the kids ? No one. Sure, the kids can teach themselves, but as i said before, kids are heavily influence by their fellows. Therefore, if the whole class thinks one thing (for example, that piracy is wrong), then one of them isn't suddenly going to change his/her opinion at least until high school, where kids start to have varied opinions on everything.

I hope you make the right decision, whatever it may be.
I have stated similar arguments, however it is not what is right or wrong, perceptions that my children may get of their father are the real issue.

My argument specifically to the RIAA on the subject of used music tapes/cd's is as follows. (First you have to understand that a used record store near and dear to my heart has been subjected to a lot of hassle and abuse from the RIAA regarding them selling used music, the RIAA wants a cut).

First off, if I buy a new car, let me say a Dodge Viper for instance. I just forked out 85,000 US dollars to own it. Now I drive it for a year or two and then sell it to another person. Now what the RIAA says is that DaimlerChrysler should get a percentage of the sale of my used car and that is utterly ridiculous.

Now you could almost apply this same scenario to say renting a tape or DVD, the rental place paid the movie company a large amount of money to offer it to me for rent. I then pay rent on it for the use of it for a certain amount of time, should I only be allowed to view it once? Pause it? Rewind? Replay? Alternatively, even let us say dupe it? I am in the growing majority of people who say DAMN RIGHT. Everyone has been paid and everyone is still happy, in my book that makes it all right. Now on the other hand there are a whole slew of reasons both morally and ethically based disputing my thinking. I really do not want to go into it, this string is just about the IDEA of my children being taught to think their Dad is some type of ruthless criminal. I will eventually work this out, it is just about how I work it out and how little I can make the issue become.

Tyke

05-16-2003, 09:25 PM

Sharing / Piracy is going to happen. If a capitalist society is right, piracy (being a product of such a society) is also right.

Why?

Not going on a marxist rant here, mainly because I am not a marxist as such but:-

Consumerism is all around. We are shown shiny new things, and we are told that we want them. We work to get them. We have to have them, just because the Jones' next door have them.

The Jones' are on £120K p.a. I'm on £14K p.a. But I work just as damned hard and just as long.
So I want the new CDs and DVDs. But I only have my labour to sell, and my boss says my labour is only worth just under £6/hr despite the revenue that hour of my work brings in. (works out to something like £50 to me for £2000 to him)

So yeah, damn right I'll download. I can afford a fast connection (just) so I'll pay my ISP. I get a hell of a lot better value for money and more sounds per pound than I would from Virgin Megastores.

I don't really care whether some say it's wrong. I do have ethics - they just don't always fall into the boundaries of the "norm".

What I DO object to is rip-off pirates. I've released a few files onto the network - most of them are sort of "minority interest" (NO I don't mean porn) but they do get the occasional upload. I put the work into the encoding for other people's enjoyment, not for mine nor anyone else's profit. So any file you get that has been encoded by my hand will have a splash screen or a signature "not for sale" or "if you paid for this you were ripped off". The most I will accept from someone without the hardware to get stuff themselves is a pint, or the cost of the blank CD/DVD