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ShockAndAwe^i^
05-16-2003, 05:54 AM
I have never seen so many people that are enjoying The freedom that the blood and money of the USA has paid for be so ungrateful.
Is it that they are so jelous of the USA or is it because there countries pale in comparison.
Who are these countries that they come from.
They always seem to leave that out. :ph34r:
The fact of the matter is if they come from eurpoe they should be down on their knees kissing the feet of Uncle Sam.
Shame on YOU EUROPE.
The USA should pull out of Europe and let them defend themseleves.:lol: :lol: :lol:
They would'nt stand up to evil(except britain and poland)in the 1930's and they won't today.
Just take a look at Milosovitch,Sebia and Bosnia for a recent example
We had to take care of that problem and it was in their own backyard.
We should pull out and be done with them.
France is their leader now anyway.

Barbarossa
05-16-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by ShockAndAwe^i^@16 May 2003 - 05:54
The USA should pull out of Europe and let them defend themseleves.
About time!! I'll get the suitcases, you start packing... ;)

Rat Faced
05-16-2003, 03:40 PM
1/ There were a lot more Europeans died in WWII than Americans, and those still fighting on mainland Europe were shot if caught not sent to a POW camp.

2/ The USA only declared war on Germany in exchange for UK (and the rest of the British Empire) declaring war on Japan. This ensured that Australia, India and a lot of other countries in the Far East were sudden allies and could releave the strain on an unprepared USA in the Pacific.


Now, why should we kiss your feet again? Because in both wars you profiteered to BOTH sides prior to joining in and were too far away to get hurt and have to rebuild....ensuring you were the richest country in the world following the wars?

Then profiteered again by lending the money to rebuild at extortionate interst rates to keep you the richest country?

In one word................No



There are things to be thankful to the USA for, but there are also things to dislike.

In this you are the same as any other country.

Live with it.

Edited to add last three lines.....sounded a bit 'anti-american' without them ;)

amphoteric88
05-16-2003, 03:46 PM
removed

j2k4
05-16-2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by ShockAndAwe^i^@16 May 2003 - 00:54
I have never seen so many people that are enjoying The freedom that the blood and money of the USA has paid for be so ungrateful.
Is it that they are so jelous of the USA or is it because there countries pale in comparison.
Who are these countries that they come from.
They always seem to leave that out. :ph34r:
The fact of the matter is if they come from eurpoe they should be down on their knees kissing the feet of Uncle Sam.
Shame on YOU EUROPE.
The USA should pull out of Europe and let them defend themseleves.:lol: :lol: :lol:
They would'nt stand up to evil(except britain and poland)in the 1930's and they won't today.
Just take a look at Milosovitch,Sebia and Bosnia for a recent example
We had to take care of that problem and it was in their own backyard.
We should pull out and be done with them.
France is their leader now anyway.
ShockAndAwe-


It is an unavoidable point of the history we all rely on that political expedience has played a huge part in the timeliness of action or lack of same regarding U.S. foreign policy. While the U.S. arguably has the advantage of at least appearing to work for the betterment of it's spheres of involvement, we cannot uniformly claim, in every case, to have acted altruisticly.

The U.S. has, at times, acted with supreme arrogance (the appearance of which, at least, is largely unavoidable), self-interest, and regrettably, at times, with astounding ignorance.

Our saving grace, as I see it (shields up and activated ;) ), is that our might allows us to act to render decisive aid, be it monetary or military, in the name of what we think is a just cause.

No more or less than that. Some agree, some don't, but there it is.

By the way-I am possibly the most active defender of the U.S. on this forum; I try to be more 'perfect' in my defense of my country than she is in her actions.

P.S.-The people who count DO appreciate the sacrifices; don't doubt that.

ShockAndAwe^i^
05-16-2003, 09:38 PM
Blah blah blah
Your proving my point.
I know more Europians died in WW2 but thats not the USA's fault.
Rosevelt wanted to get in the war before we did but the american people wanted no part of it.
The delay in the US entering WW2 allowed Hitler to slaughter millions of Jews but still thats not our fault.
J2k4 I am glad to hear these things from you but I think there is such an anti American spirit in the Europe today that you are in the minority.
More and more americans are feeling the way I do.
I am 40 years old and I never in my wildest dreams did I think that Americans would be so dispised in Europe in my lifetime.
Throughout my life I have seen that France is not that fond of us and hates the proliferation of American culture in their society.
I am of European desent,Scotch,French and a wee bit of Irish.
Americans are shocked by all this anti American ferver in Europe.
There is a hidden agenda at work here!:devil:
Some of my anger written bombast throughout this section was a little uncalled for.
I am glad such people like you still exist and I apoligize To you.

Rat Faced
05-16-2003, 09:47 PM
ShockAndAwe,

In many instances you mistake a dislike for US foreign policy (which i have) as anti-american (which im not).

I also dislike a lot of my own governments policies......that doesnt make me a traitor.


I wrote in another thread that I dont think its possible to be 'anti-american', as it is a collection of 50 different cultures in a Federation with only 2 things in common: Federal Taxes and Foreign Policy.

I dont give a shit about Federal Taxes, but its Foreign Policy affects me; as the USA has 1/2 of the worlds GDP.

Didnt you lot get independance on the "No Taxation without Representation" banner? The US Foreign policy deeply affects EVERYTHING from taxation on down through the world.

The US colonies went to war over this, we're just criticising........

kAb
05-17-2003, 01:04 AM
i have to agree with most of what ShockAndAwe said.


i don't understand the point that more europeans died than americans in europe. if the battles had mostly taken place in the U.S., than more americans would die... duh..

i was going to say other things, but i suddenly drew a blank..i'll get back with u guys later. :mellow:

clocker
05-17-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by ShockAndAwe^i^@16 May 2003 - 15:38

I am 40 years old and I never in my wildest dreams did I think that Americans would be so dispised in Europe in my lifetime.
Throughout my life I have seen that France is not that fond of us and hates the proliferation of American culture in their society.


Please, S&A, calm down!

I have to wonder where you get your information. TV?

One of my neighbors is a stewardess ( oops..I meant flight attendent) and flies to Europe/Russia several times a month. The main complaint she hears about Americans is that since 9/11 fewer of us travel overseas. They miss our money!
Just like here, the lumpenproletariat of Europe is far more interested in the events in their neighborhood than the world stage. Just trying to get through the day and feed the kids, pretty much like people the world over. They don't have the time, energy or political will to actively hate anybody.
I have certainly done my fair share of sniping at the French, but it basically stops here in the forum.
Damned if I'm giving up Perrier Jouet and Roquefort...

p.s. I believe that attendance at EuroDisney continues to grow. If the French can get over it, so can you.

ShockAndAwe^i^
05-17-2003, 01:14 AM
70% of americans support our foreign plolicy including myself

clocker
05-17-2003, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by ShockAndAwe^i^@16 May 2003 - 19:14
70% of americans support our foreign plolicy including myself
Really?

I don't.
What are your sources? You chastise MN for stating as fact what you claim is unsupported opinion and then make a post like this?
Sheeese...talk about a double standard.

ShockAndAwe^i^
05-17-2003, 02:56 AM
man don't be ridiculous!
I'm going by the polls.
It's all you can go by.
Your part of the 30% and I respect your opinion.

hobbes
05-17-2003, 03:16 AM
Can I add a coffee break.

I actually find Shock and Awe to be a rather cathartic entity. It is nice to see a pro-America rant.

I am also heartened that Clocker and J2 have told him to pull in the reigns a bit to help his credibility and acceptabilty.

I have yet to see an anti-American rant countered in such a way, indicating that we (the Americans) are more concerned about intellectual honesty than the other side, we don't just blindly support those on our side.


Anyway, help me out


?-?-dark side of the moon-wish you were here-the wall-animals?

sArA
05-17-2003, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by hobbes@17 May 2003 - 04:16


I have yet to see an anti-American rant countered in such a way, indicating that we (the Americans) are more concerned about intellectual honesty than the other side, we don't just blindly support those on our side.

Here, we go again....making astounding assertions based on those posters who can actually be bothered to involve themselves in vitriolic attacks on a soverign nation's policies.

Surely, your remarks regarding intellectual honesty show a narrow approach that is merely an attempt to instigate further controversey and of course, to proliferate further argument.

If you were truly concerned with intellectual honesty, then surely to imply an American monopoly on the ability to counter argue in an articulate manner, whilst maintaining emotional distance and a non-partisan stance.....shows a narrow approach and lack of such an ability from the outset!

I expected a better argument from you of all people Hobbes! :lol:

hobbes
05-17-2003, 03:43 AM
I was not arguing, I was taking a coffee break, what are the first 2 Pink Floyd albums pictured? (the sig by shock and awe)


My assertions were pretty astounding, weren't they. "blush" And not the ability, but the desire.

sArA
05-17-2003, 03:51 AM
The first one is Atom Heart Mother....not sure about the second one.....Ummagumma?

hobbes
05-17-2003, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by sara5564@17 May 2003 - 04:51
The first one is Atom Heart Mother....not sure about the second one.....Ummagumma?
No, Relics

http://members.lycos.nl/floydianfan/Covers...lbum_covers.htm (http://members.lycos.nl/floydianfan/Covers/album_covers.htm)

I can't believe that you people don't spoon feed me everything I want to know.

ShockAndAwe^i^
05-17-2003, 07:27 PM
Look you guys
I'm not anti European!
I'm an American Thats really hurt by what I thought was a close friendship between the US and EU.
But your right ...It was a rant.
I had never been to this section and did'nt even know it existed.
When I read all the anti American stuff coupled with the fact no one was even talking about the evil of the Iraqi regime...I lost it!
Sorry

j2k4
05-17-2003, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by ShockAndAwe^i^@17 May 2003 - 14:27
Look you guys
I'm not anti European!
I'm an American Thats really hurt by what I thought was a close friendship between the US and EU.
But your right ...It was a rant.
I had never been to this section and did'nt even know it existed.
When I read all the anti American stuff coupled with the fact no one was even talking about the evil of the Iraqi regime...I lost it!
Sorry
Ah-good for you, Shock!

If you're serious, glad to have you-we don't waste time on certain types; we must think you can be redeemed so as to contribute, yes?

I went through a similar 'half-cocked' phase (you were about six pots of coffee past me, though) before I realized that first impressions gathered here, while certainly indicative, are never complete. I've gone to the mat many times in this forum, but, wonder of wonders, eventually I got around to the point where I would gladly suffer the company of my adversaries over a couple of drinks just to continue the debate. I would find THAT most enjoyable. B)

And, as much as it pains me to say, I've learned a few (very, very few) things from them. :lol: :lol: :lol:

In any case, history is continually bent and twisted by those who record it; we suss it out as best we can, and then we are left with only our perspective, which must count for SOMETHING-or nothing at all!

So we are left to 'persuade'. *

*I hereby beg the forbearance of my colleagues here in the event of any future rants perpetrated by myself in this forum or in any establishment we may by God's grace find ourselves imbibing adult beverages amid our debate.

(Okay, everybody, you can stop talking about him now) :lol: :lol: :lol:

clocker
05-17-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by j2k4@17 May 2003 - 14:19
[
*I hereby beg the forbearance of my colleagues here in the event of any future rants perpetrated by myself in this forum or in any establishment we may by God's grace find ourselves imbibing adult beverages amid our debate.

(Okay, everybody, you can stop talking about him now) :lol: :lol: :lol:
http://galleries.vinyamar.com/ps/show.php?id=FPTTlWsy5VvTgjdlYuVUXCKyG&ext=.gif

Your round, j2...



edited to reduce obnoxiously large photo (apologies to echidna)

j2k4
05-18-2003, 01:42 AM
Glenfiddich all around, gents! :D


(What a motley crew) :lol: :lol:

ShockAndAwe^i^
05-18-2003, 02:38 AM
You are really funny j2k4
I snaped and as you can tell I've calm'ed down quite a bit.
I'm not a hater of Europeans I am an American of European decent.
I'm only the second generation born here.
My grandparents are all from there!
I can't even understand my grandmother half the time(scottish brogue).
I don't wanna make enemies either.
I found this place and started reading what our European friends were saying and lost it!
Sorry
:">

clocker
05-18-2003, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by ShockAndAwe^i^@17 May 2003 - 20:38
You are really funny j2k4

http://www.jokeuniversity.com/picpages/clown.jpg

Not everyone finds j2 as amusing as you, S&A...

Rat Faced
05-18-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by ShockAndAwe^i^@18 May 2003 - 02:38
You are really funny j2k4
I snaped and as you can tell I've calm'ed down quite a bit.
I'm not a hater of Europeans I am an American of European decent.
I'm only the second generation born here.
My grandparents are all from there!
I can't even understand my grandmother half the time(scottish brogue).
I don't wanna make enemies either.
I found this place and started reading what our European friends were saying and lost it!
Sorry
:">
If you read it all, you would see that there are 2 different types of 'anti-american' posts.

Those that would be happy to see the whole place disappear, and those that just believe that what has happened recently will make things worse.


So look at it this way.

What type of friend wouldnt try and stop you making a big mistake if they saw you about to make one?

echidna
05-18-2003, 11:29 AM
i agree with Rat Faced about the 'What type of friend wouldnt try and stop you making a big mistake if they saw you about to make one?' analogy
US foreign policy looks a lot like drunk driving late at night - it's really dangerous
and infuriatingly, anything which is critical of US foreign policy is deemed 'anti-american' and placed on 'Code Red' 'Pro-Evil' Status
[the difference between those of us who are critical as aposed to being genocidal is a point i have been at pains trying to make]
some creatures are worse to tread on than others though

@clocker :: like the pics G but can you resize them when they'r eover 400 pixels wide next time? DL Fireworks if you need a tool then upload the image to http://www.sigup.com/
i'm running a big resolution 1280*1024 pixels and that image is too big for me
add some of these favlets to your favorites list so you can see what people with little monitors do (http://tantek.com/favelets/)

clocker
05-18-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by echidna@18 May 2003 - 05:29


@clocker :: like the pics G but can you resize them when they'r eover 400 pixels wide next time?
done.

echidna
05-18-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by clocker+19 May 2003 - 00:37--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 19 May 2003 - 00:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--echidna@18 May 2003 - 05:29


@clocker :: like the pics G but can you resize them when they&#39;r eover 400 pixels wide next time?
done.[/b][/quote]
nice one ;)
i know how it is grabbing img on the fly off the www and all :lol:
it fits in heaps better thanx

clocker
05-18-2003, 03:25 PM
Thanks for the info on Fireworks. My new goal is to stop typing all together and only reply with pictures. Kind of an internet mime.

echidna
05-18-2003, 04:27 PM
http://sigup.com/sigs/thats_an_interesting_idea_clocker.gif

clocker
05-18-2003, 05:04 PM
http://www.un.org/ageing/marcellogolg.jpg

echidna
05-18-2003, 05:42 PM
http://www.streetentertainers.co.uk/artists/peet/mime.jpg

clocker
05-18-2003, 06:04 PM
http://members.aol.com/flemart/mime2.jpg

I didn&#39;t know it was loaded...

hobbes
05-18-2003, 06:33 PM
What will be next? Dueling mime posts can only lead to:


Clocker vs Echidna- the grudge match (http://www.send4fun.com/banjos.htm) -but who is who?

clocker
05-18-2003, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by hobbes@18 May 2003 - 12:33



Clocker vs Echidna- the grudge match (http://www.send4fun.com/banjos.htm) -but who is who?
http://www.silahnet.com/images/bilimkurgu/lightsaber.jpg

I&#39;m the one with the green sword...

echidna
05-18-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by clocker+19 May 2003 - 04:43--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 19 May 2003 - 04:43)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--hobbes@18 May 2003 - 12:33



Clocker vs Echidna- the grudge match (http://www.send4fun.com/banjos.htm) -but who is who?
http://www.silahnet.com/images/bilimkurgu/lightsaber.jpg

I&#39;m the one with the green sword... [/b][/quote]
hamyl :: lame :lol: :lol:
Who&#39;s your Daddy? :P

clocker
05-18-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by echidna@18 May 2003 - 12:59




Who&#39;s your Daddy? :P
http://www.blackstate.com/yoda.jpg

j2k4
05-18-2003, 07:13 PM
Clocker-

You weren&#39;t kidding about your newfound uploading skills, were you? :P

The av is cool, too-I recommend a synthetic lubricant and a magnetic drain plug, although I&#39;m sure the machine work on those gears is so precise you won&#39;t suffer any chip contamination. :lol:

myfiles3000
05-18-2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by ShockAndAwe^i^@16 May 2003 - 22:38
I think there is such an anti American spirit in the Europe today that you are in the minority.
More and more americans are feeling the way I do.
I am 40 years old and I never in my wildest dreams did I think that Americans would be so dispised in Europe in my lifetime.

its this kind of comment that explains why americans are not well liked -- obliviousness. its not that europeans or others around the world have just begun to resent americans; the invasion of iraq was just another, particularly obvious example of why such resentment exists. the basic problem with the american public is that they believe their government&#39;s propaganda. living in a world/super/hyper power is typically so.
...
i guess i should read through the whole thread before posting. sorry. but still, i&#39;m firmly of the belief that the average american is far less informed of world politics than others in the West, and its no coincidence. this is not a personal attack on individual americans...its a systemic thang.

clocker
05-18-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by myfiles3000@18 May 2003 - 13:32
i&#39;m firmly of the belief that the average american is far less informed of world politics than others in the West, and its no coincidence. this is not a personal attack on individual americans...its a systemic thang.
Really?
If it&#39;s not a coincidence then what is it?
You may not approve of the filters through which our information is poured ( nor may I), but we are saturated with information over here.

myfiles3000
05-19-2003, 12:06 AM
clocker, i can&#39;t tell if you&#39;re disagreeing with my point or not, but i agree that americans are saturated with filtered information. what i&#39;m saying is that the filtering is far beyond that of other democracies, so much so that it becomes a difference of kind, not degree. i didn&#39;t think there was anything all that spectacular about the &#39;not a coincident&#39; observation...

clocker
05-19-2003, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by myfiles3000@18 May 2003 - 18:06
clocker, i can&#39;t tell if you&#39;re disagreeing with my point or not,
You can&#39;t tell because, as yet, I&#39;m trying to figure out what your point is. By saying "it&#39;s no coincidence" are you implying that there is a conspiracy to bias our media?
Given my internet access I can expose myself to the particular biases of newsreporting from anywhere in the world.
Who do you recommend for completely unvarnished coverage of world affairs?

j2k4
05-19-2003, 12:42 AM
Filtering (spinning) is always a problem, myfiles, but how can you deny the variety of views and sources in the U.S.?
Surely you don&#39;t think other democracies outstrip us when it comes to sheer &#39;quantity&#39; of media?

Not the U.K.

Not continental Europe.

Nowhere else, either; nothing can be had anywhere that cannot be had here.

I speak, of course, in terms of availability-those who choose to remain ignorant are doomed to remain so due to mental laziness compounded by the incredible volume of data that they are bombarded with.
We had the discussion (you remember) earlier about the need to seine &#39;news&#39; intake-some are incapable, and in many cases, I believe, should be applauded for their apathy; I prefer they stay away from the voting booth. :D

Actually, you may be on to something insofar as a lessening of the "snowed-under" effect, in locales where news is less &#39;prevalent&#39;, would necessarily lead to easier digestion of same? :huh:

MagicNakor
05-19-2003, 01:25 AM
I think myfiles was meaning the American public at large..

Surely it&#39;s quality over quantity. ;)

I&#39;ve been saying for years now that people who want to vote (in any country) should have to pass a basic knowledge test. ;) One person - one vote doesn&#39;t work out too well if Person A is well informed and makes his well-informed vote and Person B watches FOX news while waiting for Jerry Springer and picks Canidate B because "his name looks good."

Unfortunately, it&#39;s not a popular opinion. :D

:ninja:

clocker
05-19-2003, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by MagicNakor@18 May 2003 - 19:25


Unfortunately, it&#39;s not a popular opinion. :D


I think it&#39;s a great idea.

For everyone.
I think it&#39;s wishful thinking to believe that the population of your country ( wherever it may be) is any more knowledgable than that of the US.

myfiles3000
05-19-2003, 03:56 AM
clocker i&#39;ve got a flu and am minutes away from slumber, but depending on what you mean by &#39;knowledgeable&#39;, i think perhaps we disagree after all. I am convinced, and i don&#39;t think it would be very hard to support my opinion with innumerable studies, that the average american is exceptionally ignorant regarding world affairs and world history. obviously the american elite (scientists, intellectuals, etc) do not belong to this group, and lead in any number of fields of study...this is often cited as a dominant characteristic of american society, the best of the best, the worst of the worst.

j2k4, my observation hinges on the distinction between quantity and quality (the former in the descriptive sense, not necessarily good/bad). americans are overwhelmed all right, but the *spectrum* of political thought is remarkably narrow...communists parties, for example, are common-place minorities in European politics. the very thought of a respectable communist party is oxymoronic in the USA. likewise, very right-wing parties are more common in Europe as well, though the performance of jorge hader not so long ago makes me think the right is generally less popular than the left. (please don&#39;t bother labeling me a communist, i&#39;m not).

what i&#39;m saying is basic common sense: big tough jocks and beautiful sexy prom queens don&#39;t have to consider the many perspectives of the world, as they mostly get what they want anyway. the survival and success of smaller countries, like those of europe, depend on their ability to appreciate nuance and variety. an informed american public is not required, as the economic and military power of its government and business leaders does not require it.

feel free to argue with me on this, but again, i don&#39;t think what i&#39;m saying is radical.

myfiles3000
05-19-2003, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by MagicNakor@19 May 2003 - 02:25
I think myfiles was meaning the American public at large..

Surely it&#39;s quality over quantity. ;)

I&#39;ve been saying for years now that people who want to vote (in any country) should have to pass a basic knowledge test. ;) One person - one vote doesn&#39;t work out too well if Person A is well informed and makes his well-informed vote and Person B watches FOX news while waiting for Jerry Springer and picks Canidate B because "his name looks good."

Unfortunately, it&#39;s not a popular opinion. :D

ninja i sympathize with your frustration, but you&#39;re opinion is inherently anti-democratic. You simply can&#39;t hold such an opinion and claim to believe in democracy. the solution is eliminating ignorance, not the ignorant. which is much harder to do, and infinitely more valuable.

MagicNakor
05-19-2003, 04:53 AM
Not at all. ;) If you look back to the ancient Greeks, people had to meet certain standards to be able to vote. It&#39;s not "anti-democratic," it&#39;s a throwback to the birth of democracy.

But then again, most of my posts here tend to the anarchonistic side of things. :(

:ninja:

Edit: And I never said eliminate the ignorant. It would leave far too many countries almost barren.

ShockAndAwe^i^
05-19-2003, 07:39 AM
Well I&#39;m back
I have&#39;nt checked this thread for a couple of days.
I had to go all the way back to page 2.
After reading page 2 I just have to say ;You were&#39;nt attacked&#33;
Now I&#39;m not screaming that but you just have to understand that the USA changed on 911.
That was a major well orchestrated attack.
If terrorists had blew up the eiffel tower or..........nevermind that thought
I just can&#39;t find a suitable comparison to the WTC/Pentagon.
The heart of our economy/symbol of a society and the center of the nations defence.
I&#39;m originally from NYC I was born there and I&#39;ve stood atop those towers.
I saw them everyday and you could tell where you were just by looking for them.
Americans by in large are usually quick to forget(look at the Clintons) and if enough time passes without anything major happening this will fade(to a certain extent)as well.
The terrorists ironically invited the US to their neighborhood by commiting such an attack.
C&#39;mon any country attacked in such a way is going to respond.
The middle east is just where they are.
They hate us&#33;
We support Israel and they have this unquenchable hate that dates back to biblical times.
They and the rest of the world know that if not for this support Israel would either be destroyed already or "driven into the sea"......I don&#39;t know.
If the US all of a sudden decided to turn it&#39;s back on Israel I suspect the amout of terrorism and hatred against the US would drop dramatically.
This is not gonna happen&#33;
I&#39;m not jewish but God forbid that this should ever happen.
They have nobody without us.
Thats it for now. :rolleyes:

Barbarossa
05-19-2003, 10:11 AM
Israel have weapons of mass destruction, a questionable human rights record, and have ignored a few UN Resolutions.

I personally don&#39;t feel sorry for them at all.. Israel is to Syria and Lebanon etc what Iraq was to the US.

You are right that the USA changed on 9/11. I don&#39;t blame them for that though, it was horrific. However, terrorism has existed in the wider world for many more years than that. In the UK we have had the threat of terror from the IRA for 3 decades. Our business centres, hotels, and even crowded pubs were bombed, costing many lives. They even attempted to mortar-bomb the house of the prime minister&#33;

9/11 was a very very harsh wake-up call for America, but it forced them to acknowledge their responsibilities for the problems in the world, whereas before that they could keep them at a safe distance. Now I just feel that they are dangerously lashing out at easy targets, in a bid to be seen to be doing something. However, All they are doing is becoming more and more unpopular with the Muslim and the Arab people.

None of us can sleep safer in our beds tonight because Iraq has been "liberated". The war on terror is not a war you can win with superior firepower, because you are fighting the hearts of people who believe in the absolute right of what they are doing. How can you stop a suicide bomber who believes he will get his reward in the next life? And how many future suicide bombers will be created from all the orphaned children from the latest conflict?

I wish I had some answers, but I haven&#39;t. Sooner or later someone&#39;s going to nuke a city, I actually think it may even be London (where I live), in some ways I&#39;m hoping it will be, because I don&#39;t really want to see what the "coalition" will do after that... :(

j2k4
05-19-2003, 02:12 PM
I think, from the standpoint of international opinion regarding the U.S., the world is a very small place.

I will do my best to avoid sounding presumptuous here, but:

The U.S. is a republic, democratic in nature, though, surprisingly to some, not by actual definition.
It is peopled largely by (as MagicNakor has said, and I agree :) ) those who demonstrate an astounding degree of ignorance/apathy/wrongheadedness, some of whom vote, some of whom don&#39;t vote, and, even more regrettably, some who actually have a hand in running the big show.

It is terribly ironic that one of the most prized rights here (the right to vote) is not treated with the respect it deserves.
The right to remain apathetic, ignorant, and intellectually lazy gets more consideration, and it is in this unfortunate circumstance we find the seed and fertilizer for that which we have come to refer to as "THE MEDIA".

For the relative few who actually care, and exhibit the requisite degree of understanding (I count US, here), this is untenable, so we look for solutions:

1) The &#39;Qualified&#39; voter-fine with me, as long as I decide who&#39;s qualified.

2) &#39;Educated&#39; voter-after considering the lazy, the indecisive, the &#39;under-intellectualized&#39; (the truly stupid), and the willfully ignorant (the misguided),
I am not enthused at the prospect of even a modicum of success.

3) Solidification of a philosophy via the passage of time (getting your candidates elected time after time after time).

Of the options extant, the first two offer vast comedic possibilities, the last, an eternal headache.

One (possibly the only) positive result of the events of 9/11 was that it woke people up; given it was only a year-and-a half ago, we should assume these recently awakened neophytes are still suffering from an under-nourished thought process, and are struggling to assimilate a coherent view as regards the current array of intertwined concerns.

Terrorism itself largely defies understanding (although a thoroughly muddled &#39;rationalization&#39; is possible); when considered in the overall context of the mideast, Israel/Palestine, etc., compounded by an emotional urge to view it all through the &#39;lens&#39; of September 11th?

I don&#39;t wonder why things are messy right now, but having ground my rose-colored glasses underfoot on the occasion of my high school graduation, I have to say, realistically, that only time will tell who, or what, is right.

Rat Faced
05-19-2003, 07:42 PM
I have to agree with Barbarossa, upto a point.

I dont think that a Nuke will be used by a terrorist organisation (and I pray im right in that).

However no one needs to use a nuke to totally wipe out the Eastern Seaboard of the USA. A relatively small explosion would do it, in one of the Canary Islands (obviously not gonna name which one, but its easily researched)

Scientists believe it will happen naturally in the next 150yrs or so anyway, as the Island in question is Volcanic and unstable.



I say 'relatively' as its a VERY large explosion that would be needed, but not on the scale of a Nuke.........




(Unless we're talking Tactical Nukes?..........now which countries would be daft enough to build them?)

clocker
05-19-2003, 11:10 PM
Bring it on, Rat Faced&#33;

History has proven us Americans very adaptable.

http://planet-hawaii.com/hoa/images/surfing.gif

Rat Faced
05-19-2003, 11:23 PM
@ Clocker.


I see you know EXACTLY what i was talking about.

Now that would be something to see (from the air)......

50,000,000 yanks surfing on a 100&#39; tall wave ;)

clocker
05-19-2003, 11:33 PM
Yes.

Imagine the effect that would have on the culture of say, Ohio.

Rat Faced
05-20-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by clocker@19 May 2003 - 23:33
Yes.

Imagine the effect that would have on the culture of say, Ohio.

What affect did a couple of aeroplanes have on the culture of every state?





EDIT: Ok 4 aeroplanes

ShockAndAwe^i^
05-20-2003, 02:32 AM
I personally think that it&#39;s just a matter of time before a terrorist org gets one.
And what about that crazy fat man man in Korea?
I just hope he&#39;s too busy watching porn to let a few go.
Don&#39;t get me wrong I&#39;m not making any moral judgements here.
For the love of God why is Russia helping Iran(a well known terrorist state)build a nuclear power plant.
This is insane&#33;
Rat Faced I hope you keep praying.o:)


btw the US will never no matter what we do(short of turning against and then destroying Israel)win the hearts and minds of Arabic world.
Israel is still the only real democracy in the middle east.
Do you think the Arab dictators want democracy in Iraq or anywhere else in the middle east?
It&#39;s a huge threat to there power base.
So if Israel was&#39;nt the issue they would find something else because they FEAR democracy.

j2k4
05-20-2003, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by ShockAndAwe^i^@19 May 2003 - 21:32
Israel is still the only real democracy in the middle east.
So if Israel was&#39;nt the issue they would find something else because they FEAR democracy.
Israel is to the mideast as Jackie Robinson was to Major League baseball.

Arafat&#39;s statements about annihilation of the Jews, and pushing Israel "into the sea" have never seemed to garner him any comparisons to Adolf Hitler; I find this curious. :huh:

Dubya drew those labels before the first shot was fired in Iraq.
This is also curious.