Palestine Or Israel?

[Rat Faced]

Brynasmith,

Its that peace procss (which created the Palestinian Authority out of the PLO) which was reversed when Sharron came to power....(ie Israel broke it)

As the Pallestinian Authority (PLO) refused to fight (hoping for a new Diplomatic formula (they got more out of The Peace Process than in the years of Bombing), the Pallestinians have been turning to Hamas, and these are the people that are the Terrorists now.

The big difference being that: The PLO was always a Nationalist Organisation (and would count YOU as Palestinian, based on your family living there 1000 years)...whereas Hamas is a fundamental Islamic Organisation....ie Religioun Based.


The only way to get Peace is to recognise and show the Pallestinian People that the Pallestinian Authority IS in their interest and turn away from Hamas.

Its taken 10 years for the majority of Pallestinians to support Hamas over the PLO...expect another 10 years (at least) of terrorism, gradualy dimminishing as more and more Pallestinians turn back to the PLO.


Of course, Israel will not stand for the fact that they suffer the terrorist attacks, hence they will retaliate....this will increase support for Hamas, and Diplomacy will move even further away.

Israel is the ONLY country with the power to stop terrorism in the area....but not with a policy of huge retaliation. As the Pallestinian Authority receives more of a mandate, they will help.....but they CANT now. In any war between the Pallestinian Authority and Hamas at the moment...Hamas will win.

Even if Israel stops the retaliation, its going to be a long, painful process :(

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by tralala+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tralala)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>missile attack that killed 150 palestinians=reaction of troops to a suicide attack some 3-5 hours earlier...[/b]

Oh I see, thats ok then. Is it ok for the Palestinians to do a suicide bombing in retaliation for that attack? You see what Im getting at here?


Originally posted by tralala+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tralala)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
second, babies shot in the head and kids with their guts spillin out is kinda gross, dont pur it that way mate...
[/b]

I agree, it is disgusting. Sorry but I cant think of a &#39;nice&#39; way to describe it.

<!--QuoteBegin-tralala@
these are the answer to palestinian militant terrorist groups that are out there to stop the peace process, what they want- the whole of the land of israel to be palestine. [/quote]

This is the reason I&#39;ve replied after a week or two of being away. It is NOT the answer.

<!--QuoteBegin-tralala
p.s: i am israeli, i have the experience to tell you what i typed above, so with all due respect, i think i deserve a little more respect ot my words... [/quote]

Well.. I am British and as I&#39;m sure your aware we have had our fair share of being bombed too. We didnt start killing innocent Irish civilians though. Thats my point.

You seem to be supporting killing innocent civilians out of revenge, so I&#39;m afraid your words dont deserve any respect.

[tralalala]

guys, this is going to be my last post in this thread cos there is no way im gonna convince any of you that im right...
so here it goes: read the bible and youll see that israael DID exsist a few thousand years ago (under the name of Cna&#39;an), and also if you dont believe the fact that judaism is the oldest religion, then thats your choice... its a worldwide fact, there is no religion that came before judaism...

well, thats me gone from this thread for now, maybe ill come back in a couple months or something if the thread wont be closed for "violence" inside it :lol:

bye bye for now,
tralalala

[denis123]

Originally posted by tralalala@24 July 2003 - 06:32
(under the name of Cna&#39;an), and also if you dont believe the fact that judaism is the oldest religion, then thats your choice... its a worldwide fact, there is no religion that came before judaism...

well, thats me gone from this thread for now, maybe ill come back in a couple months or something if the thread wont be closed for "violence" inside it :lol:

bye bye for now,
tralalala
Sort of like Incognito or so?

[MagicNakor]

Well, I&#39;m not certain where you&#39;re getting that Judaism is the first religion ever...but...run with it.

:ninja:

[tralalala]

lol so this is my last post here (couldnt resist it).
if judasim aint the first religion then.... ummmmm.... which religion IS the first one eh??

tralalala

[echidna]

Originally posted by tralalala@24 July 2003 - 16:32
guys, this is going to be my last post in this thread cos there is no way im gonna convince any of you that im right...
so here it goes: read the bible and youll see that israael DID exsist a few thousand years ago (under the name of Cna&#39;an), and also if you dont believe the fact that judaism is the oldest religion, then thats your choice... its a worldwide fact, there is no religion that came before judaism...

well, thats me gone from this thread for now, maybe ill come back in a couple months or something if the thread wont be closed for "violence" inside it :lol:

bye bye for now,
tralalala
cna&#39;an [or canaan] was the land that joshua invaded, since he created the first iteration of israel there i fail to see how it was israel before he got there
if you think that judaism is older than the beliefs of the koori [or the ancient egyptian religions] then you&#39;re just plain ignorant

if i&#39;m wrong please give me some evidence, if you actually gave some evidence for what you assert it might be received differently
[the bible is a christian collection of hebrew and greek texts which has absolutely no weight as far as proving anything, it doesn&#39;t count]
:: &#39;oh yeah right the whole world got flooded and all of us are the descendants of noah&#39; ::
proof needs to be verifiable and the bibles full of holes,
[do you burn your home to the ground if you get a mildew problem? &#39;cause that&#39;s what the torah (the 1st 5 books of the bible) says you should do&#33;]

hope you enjoy fools paradise

your inability to examine or support your assertions demonstrates why many palestinians don&#39;t believe they can negotiate with people like you

it is best that you&#39;ve left the kitchen before you&#39;re overcome by the heat, i hope, though, that you re-examine your assertions and consider the implications of your position
otherwise you too are a problem in the path to peace

shalom

[echidna]

Originally posted by tralalala@24 July 2003 - 18:56
lol so this is my last post here (couldnt resist it).
if judasim aint the first religion then.... ummmmm.... which religion IS the first one eh??

tralalala
here&#39;s what google spits out;

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&ie=I...le+Search&meta= (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=oldest+religion&btnG=Google+Search&meta=)

your theory doesn&#39;t rate a mention

this is no proof, but what you ask cannot be proved, only argued

since abraham came from a full blown city [Ur, southeast of Baghdad] and the jews didn&#39;t get the commandments until after they left egypt [quite a religious place considering all the temples that are still there]

i can&#39;t see how you can support that claim
judaisms own scripture seems to indicate organised religion prior to judaism itself

i mean according to the bible the israeli kids were worshipping a golden idol when moses came back with Yahweh&#39;s laws&#33;

so if you can stop laughing and explain yourself maybe we&#39;d give your claim some credence
as it stands, you&#39;re just seeming like an arrogant infant

[TIBZ]

<racist comments deleted>

Quit it, TIBZ. <_<

[tralalala]

they worshiped the golden idol cos they got worried that moses had died seeing he had been gone for 40 days and nights (getting the 10 commandments of mount sinai)...
hinduism was "created" at around 1000-2000BC (if i remember ok from a book i read lately) and judaism was "created" some 5000 years ago. how do i know that?
cos according to the jewish calendar, the year now is 5763 (in hebrew its in letters which when they are translated to numbers, you get that year), this date is what the jews believe is the day the world was created by god (first book of genesis).
of course nowadays we know it (the world) was created some 15 billion years ago, according to religion it was created 5000 years ago.

hope i cleared it up now,
tralalala

EDIT: lol yeah right, and jesus came back to life and walked on water...
think before that matey...
before joshua (or in hebrew yehoshua) invaded cnaan, the isralites left israel (cnaan sorry) to egypt cos there was no food and then they were slaved for 400 years, then comes the story of passover with the 10 plagues bla bla bla and moses takes them out of israel (if i wanted, i could write a book about this... lol).
ANYWAY, joshua and 11 other people were sent to "check out" the country to see if it was worth taking over, then he and kalev ben yefune were the only 2 out of the 12 that aggreed to taking over the country.
eventually, joshua took command and they took over cnaan.
then shmuel (samuel) came, then saul came, david, and all the kings after.
nowadays, after the temple was destroyed twice by the romans, we, the jews, cannot rebuild it till the messaiah comes (who is supposed to be with the same blood as david, in other words, from davids family).
in hebrew a jew is a Yehudi which comes from the name Yehuda who was one of the 12 tribes that only 2 of them are still around (Yehuda and Binyamin (=benjamin)). the other 10 were taken out of israel about 2000-2500 years ago and were never to be found or come back if you like.

i cant type any more cos my fingers are getting a little sore... and im going to the pool/gym soon, ill check up here later.

byeee,
tralalala

[denis123]

Originally posted by tralalala@24 July 2003 - 09:45


before joshua (or in hebrew yehoshua)

I thought that no vowels were used in Hebrew?

I obviously have a lot to learn&#33;

The oldest religion? Seems like an interesting topic. Not really relevant here.

For the rest, I am glad you "cleared up" the history of the sons of Abraham.

[Rat Faced]

Thought there was only one "Lost Tribe of Israel"?

Mormons claim its the North American Indian... :-"



Good Storyline (http://www.proaxis.com/~sherlockfam/art5.html) though. ;)

[lynx]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@24 July 2003 - 16:02
Thought there was only one "Lost Tribe of Israel"?

Mormons claim its the North American Indian... :-"
If that&#39;s true, they sure were lost.

[echidna]

some austrian missionaries in the 19th century were hell bent on the notion that some australian aboriginals from the northern territory were the lost tribe

they get around don&#39;t they?


Ed. typo

[tralalala]

10 lost tribes of israel.
and there ARE vowels in hebrew just not too many.
yehoshua in hebrew is spelled as yhosha (yes, yhosha), éäåùò (thats hebrew). left to right writing, first letter is the Yud=ye, second is the He=h third is Vav-o forth Shin-sh and last is the Ain=a.

tralalala

[leonidas]

The main problem with this conflict is extremism: Sharone is the chief of the extreme right jewish party, jewish colonists is a very influent special interest group in israel,(For example they offen show spectaculars colonists evictions on the israeli tv). And of course violence comes also from palestinians activists who recruit their soldiers and kamikazes easyly, because of the powerty and the recurring israeli intrusions in this country.It&#39;s just a vicious circle.

So you can&#39;t just summarize the situation like: "Those hairy muslims don&#39;t know about civilisation", "They&#39;re just dazzled by religion", ect...
The problem is huge, and I think it&#39;s going to get worse as Usa Want to control the Middle-east to get the oil.
Anyway I don&#39;t blame anyone, when we see the kind of news people get in united-states:http://salebetesurleouaibe.free.fr/Page(s)%20Ben%20Laden/IMAGES/T%E9l%E9%20CNN.jpg

[lynx]

Originally posted by tralalala@24 July 2003 - 18:47
10 lost tribes of israel.
To lose one tribe may smack of carelessness.

To lose 10 tribes sounds like incompetence. :P

[Neil__]

Israel says that Palestine was given to them by God and the proof is in the bible.

Well I think that contract is nothing but hearsay and is invalid as it isn&#39;t signed.

Neil

[tralalala]

the 10 "lost" tribes of israel were "lost" due to the fact that the tribe/country of Ashur took over israel around 2000BC and sent 10 of the tribes away from israel and were never to be returned...
the other 2 survived somehow (cant remember how, something like a deal or something) and these 2 are the only existing "original" tribes of israel.

tralalala

[Rat Faced]

And those 2 "tribes" never "dispersed", stayed in the Area, were always there, and are acknowledged as Palestinian by the Pallestinian Authority.


So, in YOUR opinion stated above, Israel should not exist because
...sent 10 of the tribes away from israel and were never to be returned...


The return of these Tribes (ie the Jews that dispersed) are the cause of the troubles.



I think you should give a little thought before posting something that can be translated that way (I know its not what you meant)...



I wasnt talking of the dispersed Tribes however, which were never truley "lost"...but of the "Lost" Tribe, that they&#39;ve been trying to find genetic evidence of for years, all around the world.

And also on which "Battlestar Galactica" was based...

[tralalala]

lol sorry, you are right, im a little annoyed cos i cant get anyone here to believe or more likely to change their mind about israel and who it belongs to...
anyway, im going out now for friday night dinner (friday night is the entry of the holy saturday cos in judaism the day changes when 3 stars are out).

well, byeeeeeee

tralalala

[Octopussy]

israel....palestine....shoudl just live togehter :unsure: i mean its land....who cares who owns it as long as you can live on it <_<

[sabbath]

Originally posted by billyfridge@17 May 2003 - 15:26
Until these hairy arsed arabs are brought into the twentieth century, and the realisation that religeon, is a load of bollocks, there will never be peace
between jews and palestinians. They can&#39;t see any further than their scull caps and prayer mats. :angry:
OK, I open my PC and I see this...

WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE&#39;S CULTURE?

"Hairy arsed arabs"

This comes from a civilized being...

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by sabbath+4 September 2003 - 09:14--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sabbath &#064; 4 September 2003 - 09:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-billyfridge@17 May 2003 - 15:26
----edited, due to profound stupidity of original post----

This post has been edited by El_Jefe on 4 September 2003 - 16:59

OK, I open my PC and I see this...


This comes from a civilized being...[/b][/quote]
Are you sure?




In fact it&#39;s probably only the fear of God that stops an outright massacre on this planet in general and to this individual in particular&#33;

I am suprised though that such a blatant racial/religious/ insult was left uncensored.

edit: offending material

[Barbarossa]

...and anyway, it should be the twenty-first century.... :huh:

[sabbath]

First page...

Anyway, I think he&#39;s not less a barbarian than those who he insults.
He can&#39;t even reach near understanding...

I don&#39;t know Arabs but I don&#39;t insult them...

Mr. civilized, my arse...

[El_Jefe]

Originally posted by sabbath@4 September 2003 - 08:55
First page...

Anyway, I think he&#39;s not less a barbarian than those who he insults.
He can&#39;t even reach near understanding...

I don&#39;t know Arabs but I don&#39;t insult them...

Mr. civilized, my arse...
That post has now been edited.

[sabbath]

Thank you...

[Biggles]

The idea that Judaism is the oldest religion because the deity worshiped in that particular religion created the world has to be the most tautological argument I have seen in a long time.

Every religion with a creation myth thinks it is the oldest religion simply by dint that everybody else must be misguided. This is faith not science.

What is required here is a separation of anthropology from religious adherence.

The earliest written examples of biblical texts date from around 2500 years ago. Clearly Judaism existed before this and almost certainly older versions have been lost. However, stories like Noah are just reworkings of the Epic of Gilgamesh - which came from Ur; the original birth place of Abraham.

With regards to actual age, much older verifiable texts exist for Zarathustrianism (modern Parsees), and Hinduism not to mention some very old Chinese texts. The ancient texts of Sumeria and Egypt also pre-date 2500 years ago.

The Neantherdals buried their dead with flowers and clearly believed in some sort of ritual - this was 50,000+ years ago. Perhaps they can lay claim to the oldest religion. It would perhaps also be prudent to grant them this honour and save ourselves the grief of trying to outdo each other with our more modern beliefs.

To deny that there is no genetic relationship between Arabs and Jews is simple Ludditism. What is more disturbing, however, is that it should even matter. The two groups have religious and political differences - isn&#39;t that enough to be going on with?

Ultimately, differences will be put aside - the two peoples will reach a compromise and the two States will prosper and trade with each other. It might take 10 years it might take 50 - but it will happen. The real question is, who in Palestine and Israel has the real vision to see the future and grasp it?

It won&#39;t be easy - there is fear and hatred on both sides and many have taken to identifying their legitimate desire for safety and for a full rich life with outdated religious and racial dogma that creates nothing but barriers to meaningful dialogue.

Just my opinion :rolleyes:

[sabbath]

Religion is still and will be the opium of the people, controlling them and filling their minds with hatred, not love.

Let&#39;s not go too back in history, though. It&#39;s like asking: Before God, what? We&#39;ll never get the answer. The land belongs to whoever can keep it.

And the fact that Arabs are trying to unite against Israel is true, and legitimate in my opinion, though invoked by religious beliefs

[kAb]

Originally posted by sabbath@4 September 2003 - 10:31
Religion is still and will be the opium of the people, controlling them and filling their minds with hatred, not love.

Let&#39;s not go too back in history, though. It&#39;s like asking: Before God, what? We&#39;ll never get the answer. The land belongs to whoever can keep it.

And the fact that Arabs are trying to unite against Israel is true, and legitimate in my opinion, though invoked by religious beliefs
but its the same the other way around to. just not as &#39;open&#39;.

ask almost any jew and they will tell you that the palestinians do not deserve the land.

Its all about religion though. if there was one religion there wouldn&#39;t be any killing.

but right now its jew+christian vs. muslim

it is so sad. :(

[sabbath]

Originally posted by kAb+5 September 2003 - 02:13--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kAb @ 5 September 2003 - 02:13)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-sabbath@4 September 2003 - 10:31
Religion is still and will be the opium of the people, controlling them and filling their minds with hatred, not love.

Let&#39;s not go too back in history, though. It&#39;s like asking: Before God, what? We&#39;ll never get the answer. The land belongs to whoever can keep it.

And the fact that Arabs are trying to unite against Israel is true, and legitimate in my opinion, though invoked by religious beliefs
but its the same the other way around to. just not as &#39;open&#39;.

ask almost any jew and they will tell you that the palestinians do not deserve the land.

Its all about religion though. if there was one religion there wouldn&#39;t be any killing.

but right now its jew+christian vs. muslim

it is so sad. :( [/b][/quote]
Of course, this applies to both sides.

[hobbes]

This thread is a microcosm of the whole issue. It rambles on indefinitely, with no conclusion in sight.

I am afraid I have to lock it.

http://bike-exchange.com/padlock.gif

[kAb]

You forgot that i have a key muhahahaha

http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/cee/webkey/key.gif

[MagicNakor]

Here we go then.

http://www.newswatchmagazine.org/jan99/nuke.jpg

:ninja:

[denis123]

I hope not Magic

[mogadishu]

i think my sig explains.

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by denis123@5 September 2003 - 09:44
I hope not Magic
:rolleyes:

I&#39;m hoping that at least hobbes and kAb understood that one.

:ninja:

[kAb]

Originally posted by MagicNakor+5 September 2003 - 02:15--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MagicNakor @ 5 September 2003 - 02:15)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-denis123@5 September 2003 - 09:44
I hope not Magic
:rolleyes:

I&#39;m hoping that at least hobbes and kAb understood that one.

:ninja: [/b][/quote]
i see a picture of a red cloud :huh:

[MagicNakor]

:rolleyes: Forget it. ;)





















It&#39;s the "mushroom" cloud as a result of a nuclear blast, and thus, locks nor keys can survive. I nuked the thread. ;)

:ninja:

[kAb]

Originally posted by MagicNakor@6 September 2003 - 00:03
:rolleyes: Forget it. ;)





















It&#39;s the "mushroom" cloud as a result of a nuclear blast, and thus, locks nor keys can survive. I nuked the thread. ;)

:ninja:
soo... its a special red cloud?

[leonidas]

Tralala could you tell me how much israelians a year are killed by "terorism" ?

I&#39;m not sure but I guess those killing are inferiors to car accident killing in "your country".

That&#39;s why it&#39;s obvious (and nobody can say the contrary) that it&#39;s unfair to opress the entire palestinian people, unless you think all of them deserve to be those who suffer because few of them are killers. And that way of thinking would be in my opinion not so different from the state of mind of the nazis in the 30&#39;s. You&#39;d know what I mean if you know your history.

[Beast]

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

[bigboab]

Correct me if am wrong Beast but I think that you will find that the Jews were blowing up British soldiers in Palestine before all this started.

[leonidas]

Originally posted by bigboab+24 September 2003 - 23:53--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bigboab &#064; 24 September 2003 - 23:53)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Correct me if&nbsp; am wrong Beast but I think that you will find that the Jews were blowing up British soldiers in Palestine before all this started. [/b]
exactly.

<!--QuoteBegin-Beast@24 September 2003 - 21:57
If you know your history, you would not that, for centuries, the Moslems have made a career out of Jewish genocide. Not just the Palestinians [/quote]

That&#39;s wrong. They&#39;ve been living peacefully for centuries as the jewishs weren&#39;t numerous. Problems just came after WW2, when a lot of them immigrated from Europe.

[leonidas]

Originally posted by Beast@24 September 2003 - 21:57
Besides, they send thier people in to blow up. What kind of animals do that shit?
The same kind of animals who continue to steal each days new lands to starved people, and don&#39;t even share the water with them, and who of course don&#39;t give them any financial or technical help despite they&#39;re a fucking rich country, and destroy their public infrastructures with no logical aim but vengeance.

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by Beast@25 September 2003 - 05:57
If you know your history, you would not that, for centuries, the Moslems have made a career out of Jewish genocide. Not just the Palestinians. I support the right of the Jews to thier home land and to defend it how they see fit, considering that they are vastly out numbered and the target of generations of racial hatred by many cultures.

BTW, I have "No Trespassing" signs and a gate around my property. If you are part of something that is threatening me, I think I would rather clean up the mess your corpse leaves rather than see if you would hurt my wife and child. The Palestinian Authority began as thugs, punks and terrorists who made itthier goal to rid the earth of the Jews. That is all they are now. It sucks that thier people suffer for it, but you get what you give. Besides, they send thier people in to blow up. What kind of animals do that shit?
It took some time, but we finally flushed one out&#33;

This is a typical settler, an ignorant thief.

Steal someones land, then put a no tresspasing sign up&#33;

Get out of Palestine&#33;&#33; And stay out arsehole&#33;


:angry:

[AussieSheila]

Originally posted by leonidas@24 September 2003 - 01:04
Tralala could you tell me how much israelians a year are killed by "terorism" ?

I&#39;m not sure but I guess those killing are inferiors to car accident killing in "your country".

That&#39;s why it&#39;s obvious (and nobody can say the contrary) that it&#39;s unfair to opress the entire palestinian people, unless you think all of them deserve to be those who suffer because few of them are killers. And that way of thinking would be in my opinion not so different from the state of mind of the nazis in the 30&#39;s. You&#39;d know what I mean if you know your history.
In the 3 years since the Intifada began, 2477 Palestinians have died, and 860 Israeli&#39;s.

[MediaSlayer]

You know, there is such a thing as taking yourself too seriously. But don&#39;t get all politikal on me billy it&#39;s all in good fun (http://www.theonion.com/onion3108/crazedgunman.html). Before anyone starts whining there are plenty of anti-jewish resources on that site so lick my dmz&#33;

[mp419]

Im sorry to say that the Jews never have an entitlement to any land.. whatever they have so far is taken by force...

Why is that happen to the Jews, why don&#39;t they deserve to have a place to stay?

Simply.. they don&#39;t deserve it ><Nothing more nothing less><

The Jews should Get out of Palestine and lives in scattering - cumbersome they are

[MediaSlayer]

great first post.....sort of ;)

[ilw]

Didn&#39;t see any posts about this despite it coming out a little while ago so...


An unofficial or "virtual" agreement between moderate Israelis and Palestinians has raised hopes of an eventual settlement, but also a storm of protest from Israeli Government ministers.
The agreement was initialled in Jordan over the weekend and there are plans for it to be signed in Geneva next month.
The "Geneva Accord", as Israeli papers are calling it, has no hope of being put into effect in the foreseeable future.

The present reality is one of conflict not compromise, but the document does provide an alternative vision and something to which those who want to compromise can cling.

It also provides an alternative to the current negotiating strategy embodied by the so-called roadmap.
The roadmap seeks to create secure conditions under which a settlement could take place whereas the Geneva agreement reverses that, by agreeing on a settlement first, which should then lead to peace.
The agreement settles the outstanding issues, including the right of return for Palestinian refugees, the control of Jerusalem and Israeli settlements on the West Bank.

Its basic framework looks like this:

&nbsp; &nbsp; * Palestinians would recognise Israel, which would withdraw to its 1967 borders with one or two agreed land transfers

&nbsp; &nbsp; * Palestinians would in effect give up the right of return for the tens of thousands of refugees who left or were expelled during previous wars. A few might go back, but only with Israeli agreement. Others would get some compensation

&nbsp; &nbsp; * Jerusalem would be divided administratively though not physically. The most sensitive site, the Temple Mount as Jews call it, or the Noble Sanctuary as Muslims know it, would be under Palestinian sovereignty. An international force would guarantee access for visitors. Israelis would retain the Western Wall (the so-called Wailing Wall) below

&nbsp; &nbsp; * Israel would keep some settlements, especially around Jerusalem, but the large settlement of Ariel in the centre of the West Bank would be included in the Palestinian area

&nbsp; &nbsp; * The Palestinian state would be demilitarised.

The key compromises seem to be over the right of return and the division of Jerusalem.

By giving up their cherished "right of return", Palestinians would abandon hopes of establishing a unitary state of Palestine.

By formally giving up the Temple Mount, Israelis would accept the division of Jerusalem which they have always opposed.

The negotiators

The people behind this document are familiar ones, known from earlier attempts at marking out the way forward, especially the Oslo agreement.
On the Israeli side, the former Labour Minister, Yossi Beilin, is the main figure, but there are others including Amram Mitzna, who briefly led the Labour Party, and author Amos Oz.
Yossi Beilin commented that his critics would say that "this is a bad agreement, that we caved in and gave away everything, but one thing they won&#39;t be able to say is that there is no [negotiating] partner."

On the Palestinian side, the leading figure is Yasser Abed Rabbo, a former Palestinian minister who called this "the start of a new era".

The Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, is said to have been kept informed, though his level of support is not clear.

&#39;Impossible&#39;

But the "new era" is a long way off.

Israeli ministers have lined up to denounce the accord.


There is a government in Israel and everything else is virtual at best
Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom
The Foreign Minister, Silvan Shalom, said: "There is a government in Israel and everything else is virtual at best."
The Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon himself said: "There is a roadmap and it is not helpful to make people think there might be something else."
Indeed, the thinking in the Israeli Government seems to be more along the lines expressed by one minister, Ehud Olmert, a former mayor of Jerusalem, last week.

He said that an agreement with Palestinians was "impossible" and that "we are much closer to a unilateral process that will create irreversible facts".

That means that Israel alone would decide where its borders should be.
The gulf between that view and the one enshrined in the unofficial accord is wide, perhaps unbridgeable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3187008.stm

Edit minor change

[j2k4]

Given recent and current events, the issue has once again taken on a certain "mootness"......


How very sad. :(

[kAb]

i&#39;m starting to think this will never end..

Israel refuses to cooperate and give the palestinians their land.

And the palestinians refuse to cease their suicide bombings.