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ilw
01-04-2007, 11:29 AM
Ashley's parents call her their Pillow Angel, a moniker that is a reference to the love and joy they feel for their nine-year-old daughter and the severe disabilities she has suffered from birth. She cannot sit up, walk or talk, is fed by tube, and, as her parents put it, "stays right where we place her - usually on a pillow".

Ashley won't know this, as she is brain-damaged and has the awareness, her doctors say, of a baby, but she has become the subject of a passionate argument in disability circles and beyond. Her name is becoming synonymous with the debate about the acceptable limits of medical intervention in the care of disabled people.

The cause of the controversy is the "Ashley Treatment" - a course of surgery and hormone supplements devised for her at her parents' request and with the blessing of doctors - that will for ever keep her small. It involves surgical operations, including a hysterectomy, and hormone prescriptions that will, in effect, freeze-frame her body at its current size.

Although she has a normal life expectancy, she will, physically, always be nine years old. Her growth has been suspended at 4ft 5in (1.3 metres), rather than the 5ft 6in she would probably otherwise have become. Her weight will stick at around 75lb (34kg) rather than 125lb.

This week Ashley's parents, who have chosen to remain anonymous and have only let it be known that they are "college-educated professionals" living in Washington state, have posted on the internet a lengthy explanation of their desire to stunt her growth. It is the first time they have given a public account of their actions. The explanation is accompanied by a gallery of photographs showing Ashley over the years, from her as a smiling baby a few months old, through to today when she is seen nestled in a sheepskin rug.

She was diagnosed, they explain, with brain damage with unknown causes just after birth and has remained at the same developmental level since about three months. Three years ago she began to show early signs of puberty, and they grew anxious about the impact of fertility and of her rapidly increasing size and weight on the quality of her life. In discussions with doctors at Seattle Children's hospital they devised the treatment: removal of Ashley's uterus to prevent fertility, excision of early buds on her chest so that she would not develop breasts, and medication with high doses of oestrogen to limit her growth by prematurely fusing the growth plates of her bones.

The parents insist that the treatment, carried out in 2004, was conceived for Ashley's benefit and not their own ease or convenience. With a lighter body and no breasts, Ashley will have fewer bed sores and lie more comfortably. And a smaller Ashley can be cared for and carried. "As a result we will continue to delight in holding her in our arms and Ashley will be moved and taken on trips more frequently instead of lying in her bed staring at TV or the ceiling all day long," they write.

But as news about the treatment became known, Ashley's parents were surprised by the virulence of some of the response. Comments on chatboards have included: "Ouch - this smacks of eugenics"; "I find this offensive, truly a milestone in our convenience society"; "This smells, I can't agree with this".

Outrage has also been expressed by organisations representing disabled people across the US, with many asking why a course of treatment that would not be countenanced for an able-bodied person should be allowed in this case. "People have been horrified by the discrepancy," said Mary Johnson, editor of Ragged Edge, an online magazine for disability activists.

She said she felt for Ashley's parents and could understand why they had made the decision. But she feared that the treatment would open a Pandora's box that could have adverse effects for other children. "What will now be said in the case of a child with spina bifida, who you could argue has the same physical challenges but whose brain is fully functioning? This is very troubling."

Debate has raged among doctors and medical ethicists. Jeffrey Brosco of Miami University has co-written an editorial in the Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine criticising the procedure as an experiment without proper research controls. "This is a technological solution to a social problem. I work with severely disabled children and know how hard it is on families, but what we need most is better federal funding so that they can be cared for properly."

State help for caring for disabled people is available through Medicaid, which is restricted to poor families. Ashley's parents would not qualify, and say it is impossible to find carers they can afford.

The ethical row is likely to deepen as the Seattle doctors, led by Daniel Gunther, say they are considering other children for similar treatment, though only after monitoring by the hospital's ethics committee. The doctors accept that Ashley's hysterectomy was contentious, given the dark history of sterilisation of disabled people in Europe and America, and that there were risks involved in the operations and oestrogen doses.

But they argue the benefits outweigh the risks. Ashley has, they admit, been "infantilised" but question the harm that would do a person whose mental capacity "will always be that of a young child".

Ashley cannot say what she thinks. But in a telephone interview with the Guardian last night, her father said that many people had assumed he and his wife had to agonise over their decision.

"We didn't. It was easy," he said. "We clearly saw the benefits to Ashley's quality of life. We have also been criticised for harming Ashley's dignity. But for us, what would be grotesque would be to allow a fully formed woman to grow up, lying helplessly and with the mentality of a three-month-old."

Hormones

There is a long history of hormones being used to control growth in children. In some cases they are used to counteract a hormonal imbalance or genetic disorder. But there have also been sustained attempts to control body size for cosmetic reasons.

In 1956 MA Goldzieher became the first to report using high doses of oestrogen to treat exceptionally tall girls. Over ensuing years thousands of tall girls were prescribed oestrogen to prevent them tipping over the 6ft mark, protecting their marriage prospects. As the stigma against tallness in women has declined, so has the practice, though it still continues.

Boys considered to be shorter than the norm have recently begun to be treated with a growth hormone, often for cosmetic reasons. US federal restrictions have been loosened, allowing private paediatricians to offer the treatment that can cost up to $40,000 a year.

that is somehow well fked up.
euthenasia ftw

Busyman™
01-04-2007, 12:22 PM
Can someone tell me what this thread is about?

Barbarossa
01-04-2007, 12:23 PM
It's just a very sad, tragic and heartbreaking story.

Ava Estelle
01-04-2007, 12:42 PM
Saw this on a TV doco, it was terrible.

This smacks of selfishness by the parents, the daughter has no life at all.

What the fuck happens if she outlives the parents?

Ava Estelle
01-04-2007, 12:43 PM
Can someone tell me what this thread is about?

No, read it yourself, and don't be so fuckin lazy. :cool:

Barbarossa
01-04-2007, 12:59 PM
What the fuck happens if she outlives the parents?

Well someone else would have to take care of her I guess, but that would be the case with or without the surgery :unsure:

ilw
01-04-2007, 01:17 PM
BM you only need to read the first 4 paragraphs for the story.
The rest will just give you an informed opinion instead of a prejudiced one

100%
01-04-2007, 01:40 PM
Very complex issue
On one side is
She wont know, and they say the child will benefit from it which seems true
on the other side is
physically manipulating for "convenience"..

I doubt i would even think about these possibilities

This is an easier read http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2530561,00.html







The Times January 04, 2007
http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,380750,00.jpg
http://images.thetimes.co.uk/images/trans.gif
'Ashley X', pictured last month aged nine, will never be taller than 4'5'' or weigh more than 75lb http://images.thetimes.co.uk/images/trans.gif
Parents defend decision to keep girl a child

....

MagicNakor
01-04-2007, 03:01 PM
The most humane thing to do would be to let her die.

:shuriken:

100%
01-04-2007, 03:07 PM
why?

Barbarossa
01-04-2007, 03:10 PM
The most humane thing to do would be to let her die.

:shuriken:

How exactly are you going to do that? Starvation?

Busyman™
01-04-2007, 03:14 PM
Can someone tell me what this thread is about?

No, read it yourself, and don't be so fuckin lazy. :cool:

It's a time thing....large article and I wanted to know if it was interesting or not.

Busyman™
01-04-2007, 03:15 PM
BM you only need to read the first 4 paragraphs for the story.
The rest will just give you an informed opinion instead of a prejudiced one

Thanks mang.
:happy:

MagicNakor
01-04-2007, 04:23 PM
why?

Because she can't be kept alive without severe medical intervention, and I imagine all those surgeries and drugs keeping her in her current state aren't giving her a good quality of life. I believe the parents are selfish in keeping her alive.


How exactly are you going to do that? Starvation?

Or something more humane, involving IVs and various drugs.

:shuriken:

Barbarossa
01-04-2007, 05:08 PM
So more a case of "killing her", than "letting her die" then. :dabs:

Ava Estelle
01-04-2007, 05:10 PM
So more a case of "killing her", than "letting her die" then. :dabs:

What difference does it make? She isn't 'alive' by any fair definition of the word anyway.

Barbarossa
01-04-2007, 05:15 PM
Slippery slope. There's a huge difference between letting someone die and actually killing them.

3 month old babies can smile, and can appreciate visual, aural, and tactile stimulation. How is that not alive?

ilw
01-04-2007, 06:12 PM
Slippery slope. There's a huge difference between letting someone die and actually killing them.

3 month old babies can smile, and can appreciate visual, aural, and tactile stimulation. How is that not alive?

think of the cost savings though :drool:

ahctlucabbuS
01-04-2007, 09:41 PM
nm

j2k4
01-05-2007, 03:04 AM
So more a case of "killing her", than "letting her die" then. :dabs:

What difference does it make? She isn't 'alive' by any fair definition of the word anyway.

I've heard that phrase a few times too many in my life.:(

manker
01-05-2007, 03:42 PM
I think a point that some are missing is that the child herself is, for all intents and purposes, a 3 month old baby with similar needs to a 3 month old baby and always will be.

A three month old baby wants to be held, cuddled, picked up and made to feel safe. this is very important to them and they will want this maybe twenty or thirty times a day.

All of these things are much more likely to happen if the child remains small than if she grew to adult proportions. You simply cannot pick up and rock a 12 stone woman to sleep if she is distressed - well, not easily.

Sure, it makes the parents' lives a lot easier but it also improves the child's quality of life. For that reason alone, I think this treatment is okay in this case.

Mr JP Fugley
01-05-2007, 06:46 PM
I think a point that some are missing is that the child herself is, for all intents and purposes, a 3 month old baby with similar needs to a 3 month old baby and always will be.

A three month old baby wants to be held, cuddled, picked up and made to feel safe. this is very important to them and they will want this maybe twenty or thirty times a day.

All of these things are much more likely to happen if the child remains small than if she grew to adult proportions. You simply cannot pick up and rock a 12 stone woman to sleep if she is distressed - well, not easily.

Sure, it makes the parents' lives a lot easier but it also improves the child's quality of life. For that reason alone, I think this treatment is okay in this case.

That's an excellent post.

I probly say this becasue it's pretty much what I think, expressed in a goodly way.

ilw
01-05-2007, 08:12 PM
someone posted the following on the guardian website and although it references people with a (imo) very significant difference in the degree of brain damage, i think its still relevant

I once worked in a residential care home for adults with severe learning difficulties. Most of the residents had the mental capacity of your average toddler, yet they were still adults, with adult needs.

Sexuality was important for some. Two of the residents were an item, they were sexually active and made a great couple. They kissed and cuddled in public, made noisy love in private, and occasionally bickered. Did they understand sex in the same way that 'normal' adults do? Almost certainly not, but they experienced desire, passion, empathy and love, and this was plain for all to see.

Ashley's body is frozen into childhood, so she will never reach puberty and develop as a sexual being. One can argue for compulsory sterilisation of severely handicapped persons, but not the denial of their sexual natures. Ashley's parents are denying their daughter the opportunity to reach her potential as a human being. They are I'm sure acting out of love and compassion, but I think they have made a fundamental mistake.

Biggles
01-06-2007, 04:54 PM
ilw

I have seen a bit about this and I am not sure if the Guardian piece is entirely relevant. The girl is like a three month old child with no ability to speak or walk. I think it would be hard to imagine any form of sexual interaction with Ashley, whether 18, 30 or 45, that might not be considered a tad exploitative no matter who it is with.

That said, I have reservations about the surgery they have embarked upon to remove her sexuality - which seems a tad drastic to me and I have seen some comments which suggest that the hormones alone would have been sufficient.

The growth inhibition I do not think is a big issue. The parents love her and will be her carers for as long as they can manage and that will be a lot longer if they can cope with baths and nappy changes etc., I am sure Ashley is not going to worry too much if she is only 4' 6'' instead of say 5' 6'' if, as Manker said, the cuddles and love are still there.

However, it is not a decision I would ever want to have to make so I am not rushing to cast judgement.

Snee
01-06-2007, 05:22 PM
I've been thinking a lot about this, and I still find it utterly alien.

Not obviously wrong, because they obviously love her, she won't understand how strange it is, and they don't seem to be doing this for their own sake (I imagine getting rid of her in some way or another would be easy enough, so they certainly wouldn't have to go through all this if they didn't care about her).

Removing her "sexuality" doesn't really strike me as a problem either since, as biggles says, she's never going to be able to have a real sexual relationship with anyone, it would just be an itch she can never scratch, or understand, and letting her keep that doesn't exactly strike me as an act of mercy. And as manker says, keeping her small is only going to improve her quality of life.



But still, it's so far beyond anything I've ever encountered, both the decision these people have had to do, and her situation, that I can't quite imagine being there. Therefore, I can't really say what's right, it just seems to be beyond conventional modes of morality, or something.

What I can say, tho', is that she is alive in the biological sense (hell, people are still debating whether virii can be said to be alive), and she would be aware of her surroundings, and most certainly able to feel pleasure or discomfort (which makes her alive in other senses as well), and since she's certainly not in misery, having parents who love her and hold her, there's none to put her out of, so there's no call for euthanasia, for those who'd argue for that.

In fact, as long as she has what she has now, her life could well be better than those of many fully human beings of all ages.

There are so many things she need never worry about, and it probably takes very little to keep her happy.

Mr JP Fugley
01-06-2007, 07:44 PM
But still, it's so far beyond anything I've ever encountered, both the decision these people have had to do, and her situation, that I can't quite imagine being there. Therefore, I can't really say what's right, it just seems to be beyond conventional modes of morality, or something.



Sometimes there is no right or wrong. It's just a matter of having to cope with situations. I think they are doing the best they can to deal with things and make life as comfortable as they can for her. It strikes me that the Surgeons and other Doctors involved are at the very least able to reconcile the worth of these procedures and agree to carry them out. It's not like you can just tell Doctors what to do and they will do it.

j2k4
01-06-2007, 09:38 PM
It's not like you can just tell Doctors what to do and they will do it.

A problem overcome by a bit of shopping around, I think you'd find.

100%
01-06-2007, 10:24 PM
I apologize for the extremity but why not also remove the arms and legs while your at it. (less weight, easier dressing)
Visually it won't look to natural but what they are doing on the inside is not much worse.

The entire concept of this issue will develop a completely new form of cosmetic surgery.

The future looks bright for the severely handicapped?



.

Mr JP Fugley
01-06-2007, 11:02 PM
I apologize for the extremity but why not also remove the arms and legs while your at it. (less weight, easier dressing)
Visually it won't look to natural but what they are doing on the inside is not much worse.

The entire concept of this issue will develop a completely new form of cosmetic surgery.

The future looks bright for the severely handicapped?



.

Fair point, three month old babies as a rule don't have any arms or legs.

Snee
01-06-2007, 11:07 PM
That's prolly 'cos they don't like touching stuff.

I mean, what baby wants to do that?

Mr JP Fugley
01-06-2007, 11:16 PM
That's prolly 'cos they don't like touching stuff.

I mean, what baby wants to do that?

Indeed, what use are tactile stimulii to them. To say nothing of scratching an itch when you are incapable of talking and asking someone else to do it for you.

Burrholes
02-01-2007, 12:15 AM
In this story nobody wins.