Will the US or Israel attack Iran?

[Ava Estelle]

I thought I'd get this in early, in case they do, as many people seemed to have missed the lies and bullshit that led to the present debacle in Iraq.


John Pilger, February 1st, 2007.

The United States is planning what will be a catastrophic attack on Iran. For the Bush cabal, the attack will be a way of “buying time” for its disaster in Iraq. In announcing what he called a “surge” of American troops in Iraq, George W Bush identified Iran as his real target. “We will interrupt the flow of support [to the insurgency in Iraq] from Iran and Syria”, he said. “And we will seek out and destroy the networks providing advanced weaponry and training to our enemies in Iraq.”

“Networks” means Iran. “There is solid evidence,” said a State Department spokesman on 24 January, “that Iranian agents are involved in these networks and that they are working with individuals and groups in Iraq and are being sent there by the Iranian government.” Like Bush’s and Blair’s claim that they had irrefutable evidence that Saddam Hussein was deploying weapons of mass destruction, the “evidence” lacks all credibility. Iran has a natural affinity with the Shia majority of Iraq, and has been implacably opposed to al-Qaeda, condemning the 9/11 attacks and supporting the United States in Afghanistan. Syria has done the same. Investigations by the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times and others, including British military officials, have concluded that Iran is not engaged in the cross-border supply of weapons. General Peter Pace, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, has said no such evidence exists.

The full article. (http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=426)

[Barbarossa]

No

[SeK612]

The US do appear to have contingency plans for such an attack (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6376639.stm)...

[Barbarossa]

The US have contigency plans for everything, including attacking themselves. It doesn't mean it will happen.

Even they know that attacking Iran would be insane, and about as popular as contracting syphilis.

[vidcc]

If there is an attack against Iran I believe it will be for ideological reason over threat assessment.
It's very possible that someone in Iran is supplying arms to small factions, this doesn't mean that it's done officially with government approval. The IRA raised a lot of money from people in the USA, this does not mean that the US government or the US population were supporting terrorists. [gratuitous dig at right wingers] terrorist money and terrorist supporters get around (http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/02/accused_terrori.html) [/gratuitous dig at right wingers] ;)
What I find interesting is that the bulk of the violence against US/coalition troops is at the hands of the Sunnis, who are supported by Saudis, yet this is largely ignored.

AQ is building up again in Afghanistan and probably the most dangerous area is Pakistan which is already nuclear and just a gnats hair away from being controlled by anti western radicals, yet all eyes are looking at Iran.:dry:

Now I am not saying that Iran is no threat. What I am saying is that there are much bigger threats out there. Threats that have attacked us already.

[thewizeard]

I saw it on the BBC news yesterday. My opinion is, only a fool would make such an attack on Iran...so, I suppose it will be Bush.

[tralalala]

I personally think there will be some sort of attack within the next 4-5 years.. (during my army service in the IDF..), Israel? Probably not the leader, but will take a role in attacking.. leaders? UK/US.. partners? France.. to be honest, I even see Russia joining in if they had a nice deal with the Maericans on the outcome... but who knows.

Only time will tell...



Tick... tick..... tick......




boom.

[bigboab]

I personally think there will be some sort of attack within the next 4-5 years.. (during my army service in the IDF..), Israel? Probably not the leader, but will take a role in attacking.. leaders? UK/US.. partners? France.. to be honest, I even see Russia joining in if they had a nice deal with the Maericans on the outcome... but who knows.

Only time will tell...



Tick... tick..... tick......




boom.
IMO an attack on ran is fast becoming an No No. The only way America will attack is if Israeli attacks first. The UK would not become involved.
When are the Americans going to learn that any invasion and occupation of another country will just become another Vietnam. Grenada being the exception.
If only people would learn through history. When ever has Afghanistan been defeated by an invading country? All the major western countries have tried and up to date have failed.

Maybe if Israel got rid of their nuclear weapons then that might help negotiations with Iran. I think I have more chance winning the Lottery.:)

[100%]

Please don't.

[bigboab]

Please don't.


Win the Lottery or invade Iran?:wacko:

[100%]

Please don't bomb Iran.

[Formula1]

Seeing as how the zionists and neo-cons in the U.S. government dragged us into the iraqi war on a false pretense ,for the sake of israel and oil, i wouldn't be surprised if they did. I'm not surprised either at how little the media pays attention to the Israeli Nuclear program.

[tacoflavakiss]

israel will definitely eventually attack Iran, because they are Iran

[Biggles]

israel will definitely eventually attack Iran, because they are Iran

GW is that you? :blink:

[Mindfukced]

israel will definitely eventually attack Iran, because they are Iran

GW is that you? :blink:


lol....quality...that put a smile on my face..thanks

[tralalala]

Israel cannot afford to stop it's nuclear program.. We are surrounded by hatred.. and we are a little droplet compared to the size of the nations around us.. Having this weapon, which sort of "frightens".. or, well.. deters the surrounding people, is the only way we can feel somewhat safer.

[Barbarossa]

Do you think you'd ever use them though? I was kind of expecting you to use them in '91 when Saddam sent his Scuds over.

[Ava Estelle]

Israel cannot afford to stop it's nuclear program.. We are surrounded by hatred.. and we are a little droplet compared to the size of the nations around us.. Having this weapon, which sort of "frightens".. or, well.. deters the surrounding people, is the only way we can feel somewhat safer.

What rubbish, they deter no-one, they are there only as another way of big noting themselves in the region ... how many suicide bombers have they deterred? How many missiles have they deterred? Now Iran will build a bomb to counter Israeli aggression, then Saudi Arabia will get one to counter Iran and eventually all Israel's neighbours will have them ... then what?

If Israel wants to feel safe it should end it's illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories and abide by UN resolutions.

[tralalala]

Oh bloody hell not this again......

Don't you think it would be a bit stupid using a nuclear bomb in the territories without actually destroying half of the state (Israel that is) itself...? :huh:
It's there to deter people who want to kill thousands at a time.. not the odd 3 or 4.. (over 2006 only some 14 were killed as a result of a suicide attack.. as opposed to well over 400 in 2002..... not that that fact has anything to do with the nuclear weapons.. just a result of better intelligence).
Now, I doubt Iran is building it's "peace" nuclear powerstations to counter the Israeli "threat".. more like to piss off the Americans.. don't you think?

Israel didn't use them during the first Gulf war because the US "told them so".. it was between Bush (the daddy) and Saddam.. he shot at us because he couldn't reach the US.. Iran are using the same threat, only this time they have better rockets than those crappy Scud missiles - thus making the threat much more serious......

The weapons are there to deter. Fact.
It's just to show the people who want us down and out that hey.. we have these weapons, dunno if we'll use them, but they exist..... Depends how much you're willing to push I guess. I believe that if Israel actually felt it was being threatened, and that it would be "wiped off the face of the world", then those weapons would eventually, and unfortunately come into use.


About "feeling safe" - How the hell can you say, that leaving the "occupied territories" (I wonder if you also mean areas like the whole off Jerusalem, the south of the country, the northern areas etc.. depends if you are talking of the '67 territories or the '48 territories.. you could even go further into history back some 4000 years too.. it's up to you). Obviously you cannot accept the fact that these people will accept an agreement and not crave for more.. Trust me, it's their mentality. I'm not a racist... I really am not, but I know who we are dealing with.. I know these people, I see them daily on the TV screens, papers, PC etc.. I know them. I also know the typical Israeli.. and unfortunately, getting them both to talk is extremely difficult. No side wants to give up, every side thinks they are right, and no one will listen. It's been like this forever.. I doubt it's going to change, unless finally the Americans/Brits stop thinking about how the "peace talks" will make them look on their own press back home, and actually try to reach a long-term solution... Otherwise, the bloodshed will keep coming.. god knows how many more people will need to lose their lives until 2 people, one on each side, who rule the people's, will be able to properly interact and reach an answer...

I like my neighbors, I like the Arab food, culture.. I really do enjoy walking through the Old City in Jerusalem, through the Arab market... It's really something special, but sadly there still is a tingle in the spine as I walk those streets and alleyways knowing that there still is a slight chance that maybe someone will jump out and stab me for being who I am. I can't wait for those days to end. And when they do, I know that Palestine and Israel can live freely together and have proper tourism in the 2 states.. There is plenty to see in the west bank too (Jericho, Bethlehem...) just as much as there is to see in Israel... Then, and only then will there finally be harmony around this place where thousands and thousands of people have lost their lives over ignorance and bigotry...

[SkullForce]

Iran will erase Israel, I hope to

[j2k4]

I think, first of all, that John Pilger qualifies as an ex-pat-Australian-transplant-leftist-flake, and his opinions are certainly no more worthwhile than anyone else's; mine, for example, or Billy's.

He represents one extreme, and no more effectively then his opposite, whomever that might be.

Hmmm.

I am compelled to start another thread, using a few cut-and-paste tidbits I've read lately...

[Ava Estelle]

How the hell can you say, that leaving the "occupied territories .. You didn't finish this sentence, but I take it you mean how can leaving the occupied territories bring peace?

Where is the trouble now? Where are the confrontations? Where are the barriers? Where are the roadblocks? Where are the Palestinian houses being demolished? Where are the orchards and olive groves being razed to the ground? Where are the illegal settlements? Are they in Israel or the Palestinian Territories? We hear a lot about Israel "defending" itself against Palestinians, without mentioning that they are "defending" themselves on illegally occupied land.

The key to peace is the 1967 borders, simple, everyone has said so, including Hamas. The biggest problem for Israel is the right-wing religious arseholes whose agenda is to clear the whole of 'Greater Israel' of Arabs, unfortunately no-one can form a government without them. In an example of gross double standards, not unusual in this conflict, these religious nutcases aren't made to accept Palestine's right to exist, yet the legally elected government of the Palestinians are being starved into accepting Israel's right to exist. The fact that they have accepted an Israeli state behind the 1967 borders mean nothing, they are expected to accept Israel unconditionally, which, to Israel, means the occupied territories also.



I think, first of all, that John Pilger qualifies as an ex-pat-Australian-transplant-leftist-flake, and his opinions are certainly no more worthwhile than anyone else's; mine, for example, or Billy's.
Are you up for a little challenge j2?

I challenge you to go to Pilger's site and read his articles, then find one you actually agree with, just to prove you're capable of putting your right wing prejudices to one side.

John Pilger (http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=42)

[tralalala]

Iran will erase Israel, I hope to

Do you really? And why's that? What have I done to deserve being killed? Being a Jew? Being in a country that's doing better than yours? Eh?
It's sad that people like you listen to freaking fucked up leaders like Ahmadinejad who seems to be obsessed with Israel and Jews just like Hitler was.. and look what happened to him.......



In response to Ava:
You're right.. The religious parties have power here.. a known fact for the past few decades, but that doesn't mean that you could encourage the other parties to handle the talks.
You say Israel is still demolishing houses... Afraid not.
The olive trees being "razed to the ground" - That's what the settlers do.. sort of their own counterattack to the terrorists.. Not acceptable though I'll tell you that.. they are nutters.. honestly.. I've seen them personally.
Unfortunately, abroad, you only get half of the picture.. You can't watch the Palestinian footage and decide that's it and we'll go abiding that footage. You need to see the whole story. Watch both Israeli and Palestinian news, then decide who's right/wrong or who's brainwashing etc.. You have to understand that Israelis are far more liberal than any other Muslim/Arab country around.. Thus we are developing faster (technologically.. socially..).


You need the whole, not half.




Another note to 1Man: Hope you get a pole stuck up your ass like Ahmadinejad will when he goes to far.

[Ava Estelle]

In response to Ava:
You're right.. The religious parties have power here.. a known fact for the past few decades, but that doesn't mean that you could encourage the other parties to handle the talks.

What does that mean? Without the religious, non-working, non-tax paying nutcases, there would be a chance of decent peace negotiations, or are you saying there are no politicians in Israel capable of bringing peace?

You say Israel is still demolishing houses... Afraid not.

They're not demolishing houses still? Are you serious? Israeli soldiers demolished homes in three Palestinian villages near bypass road 317 on 14 February, it's a common occurrence. Ask a Palestinian what it's like getting a permit to build in East Jerusalem, then ask what happens to their houses if they build on their own land without a permit, and who then claims the land.

The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (http://www.icahd.org/eng/)

The olive trees being "razed to the ground" - That's what the settlers do.. sort of their own counterattack to the terrorists..

The settlers are Israeli, supported by the Israeli government and protected by the Israeli army, don't play semantics with this.

Unfortunately, abroad, you only get half of the picture.. You can't watch the Palestinian footage and decide that's it and we'll go abiding that footage. You need to see the whole story. Watch both Israeli and Palestinian news, then decide who's right/wrong or who's brainwashing etc..

It's not easy to watch both sides because the majority of Western media, especially US media, is hugely biased towards Israel. Getting Israel's side of the story is easy, it's getting to the truth that takes some digging.

If you were really interested in peace you would refuse to serve your military service in the occupied territories.

[tralalala]

:lol: Ever watched the BBC? Ever seen Keith Graves on Sky..?

The settlers are supported by the extreme right wingers... If it were up to the left wingers, or me, they would have been out of there and behind bars ages ago.. But that's just me.

Can you build anywhere in the US/UK without getting a permit? Seriously asking.
If only you saw how the Arabs build their villages around Israel and in the PA.. It's like a maze :lol: (That has nothing to do with the above question.. just a side note).

I never said that without the religious you cannot have peace.. it's just that for peace you need a majority in the parliament which isn't the case as of yet..



I won't need to refuse that type of service.. I'm going to be a pilot :D I had my first call-up on Tuesday.. was OK, got the highest medical profile.. did the IQ examintaions which went fine, and am hoping to get a letter inviting me for further examinations to get into the Air Force :)

[Barbarossa]

I won't need to refuse that type of service.. I'm going to be a pilot :D

Well done. :D

Now what will you do if you get asked to fly the plane carrying the atom bomb to drop on Tehran? :unsure:

[j2k4]

Are you up for a little challenge j2?

I challenge you to go to Pilger's site and read his articles, then find one you actually agree with, just to prove you're capable of putting your right wing prejudices to one side.

John Pilger (http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=42)

I'll do it when I have time; for now, I've got a little challenge for you:

Explain coherently why in my case it is a benighted "right-wing prejudice", but in your case it is the vision of the anointed?

[Ava Estelle]

Explain coherently why in my case it is a benighted "right-wing prejudice", but in your case it is the vision of the anointed?

Well it's nice of you to bestow that title on me, but that's not how I see it, and my left-wing mates call me right of centre, I see things that I don't consider fair, and don't give a fuck who I upset by pointing them out. :)

[Ava Estelle]

:lol: Ever watched the BBC? Ever seen Keith Graves on Sky..?

I'm in Australia, and don't get the BBC or Sky.



Can you build anywhere in the US/UK without getting a permit? Seriously asking.

We're talking about the Israeli government telling Palestinians in OCCUPIED East Jerusalem that they need a permit to build on their own land. When they apply for permits they are ignored. When they build on their own land they are demolished and the land confiscated.

[tralalala]

@Barbarosa: If I am sent on a mission to bomb Tehran.. I'll do it.

@Ava: If you see East Jerusalem as "illegally occupied territories", then, in your sense, 85% of the Israeli state is illegally "owned"... Sorry, but during wars things change, and during peace, things change. East Jerusalem is part of the state of Israel.. Fact. People in East Jerusalem get health service, get paid insurance, have a blue I.D card (meaning you are a citizen of Israel), therefor, you will also need a permit to build there, just as you need a permit to build anywhere else in Israel. The irony here is that some bigots in East Jerusalem, are not only living on Israeli insurance money, but also are part of the Palestinian parliament (Mohammed Abu-Tir for instance). If they had to choose whether to be part of Israel, or live under Palestinian government? I'm almost positive they would choose the first option.
So, that's about East Jerusalem (which will be given back as part of a peace treaty, but as of now it's still Israel.. just like the Golan Heights).


And just to let you know.. BBC, and the Sky correspondent to the Middle East (Keith Graves), show the Israelis as the "bad guys" and the Palestinians as the "poor people getting hit for doing nothing".. It's not all showing Israel in the brighter light.

[Ava Estelle]

If you see East Jerusalem as "illegally occupied territories", then, in your sense, 85% of the Israeli state is illegally "owned"...
Boy, you really are one-sided! Israel invaded the Palestinian territories in 1967 and ILLEGALLY occupied them, including East Jerusalem. Under the terms of the Geneva convention they have no right to annexe any part of the territory taken. They have no right to allow citizens of Israel to build there, and no right to demolish Palestinian homes. Along with these abuses, they also have no right to inflict collective punishment of the Palestinians, something they have done for decades.


Sorry, but during wars things change, and during peace, things change. East Jerusalem is part of the state of Israel.. Fact. NOT fact ... East Jerusalem is illegally occupied, it is NOT part of the state of Israel, and neither is the Golan Heights. Things do NOT change during wars, that's what the Geneva convention is all about.



And just to let you know.. BBC, and the Sky correspondent to the Middle East (Keith Graves), show the Israelis as the "bad guys" and the Palestinians as the "poor people getting hit for doing nothing".. It's not all showing Israel in the brighter light. So what? I've already told you I don't watch either of them, and I am old enough and intelligent enough to make up my own mind without TV programs.

[tralalala]

Do you know what the Palestinian territories even are? They are Egypt and Jordan. Up to 1967, the West Bank and East Jerusalem was JORDAN and the Gaza strip was Egypt. They were invaded as part of an unwanted WAR. When Israel wanted to give back Gaza as part of the peace treaty with Egypt they said no. So we were stuck with them. Jordan got water as part of the peace treaty with them, not the land.
So, we now see that the PA is actually not the PA, but bits of other states... Illegally occupied by... who?

You say Israelis cannot build in East Jerusalem.. In which case, none of East Jerusalem residents can build there, as they are ALL Israeli citizens.. by choice. Don't tell me they are not, because each and every oe of them has an Israeli ID card.

The Golan heights ARE part of Israel and have been for 40 years, they were annexed. Syria want them back. Fine.. when the time comes for peace they'll get it, but for the past 40 years Syria and Israel have signed a paper every so long that says no one will attack the other side, keeping a status-quo... Been like that for ages with no problems for 40 years now.

You're old enough to make your mind up... may I ask what helps you make up your mind if not the media? :)

[Ava Estelle]

Do you know what the Palestinian territories even are?
Talking with you is a complete waste of time. Israel does not write international law, and making people carry ID cards does not make them Israeli citizens. Israel holds all the cards here, if they want peace they should abide by UN resolutions, full stop, if they don't, they deserve all they get, suicide bombers and all. I just hope Iran hurries up with their bomb, then maybe the US and Israel will talk and act peace instead of running around like a couple of bullies stirring up shit and acting like they own the whole fucking world!

[tralalala]

:lol: It's funny.. really.. Because over there in Oz, you haven't a clue.. Honestly.. I'm not criticizing or something, it's just you're so far away from all the "action".

If BOTH sides were to abide UN resolutions peace would have been round years ago.. Look at the Lebanese borders for a first about that.

If you went to each and every one of these East Jerusalemites you claim are not Israelis and ask if they would give up their citizenship... you'd get a slap in the face. What they get from the Israeli government is leaps and bounds more than they would dream of getting from an eventual Palestinian State government.

Iran is dangerous.. and until they do something bad people won't understand that. Take 9/11 for an example.. Only when the US got hit under the belt they knew what it felt like with these people. Only then did they realize the potential these people have of wrecking the world. Not only is it dangerous Iran would use the bomb, but also them distributing the technology to terrorist groups round the world... Then, the whole world will know what these people are about, and that they mean business. It's like a kid that wrecks things in class.. if you catch him early he may still grow up to be a good guy.. If you let him on the other hand carry on wrecking stuff, he'll be a terrible mistake later on in life.


Just you wait and see....



P.S: It's not a waste of time talking to me, it's getting to know what someone "in the line of fire" thinks and feels about it. You won't find it easy at all to get me to change my point of view.. In fact, almost impossible. I feel the same towards you. I don't think I'll manage to make you think I'm right, without actually showing you literally. I enjoy these conversations, it lets me exhale my feelings over the situation every now and again.. :)

[Biggles]

Tra la la

I think your English has improved considerably over the years too :)

[tralalala]

I know... I found myself looking at the Israel/Palestine thread that was started by kAb some 4 years ago... amazing.. Thanks :)

I suppose good English could help me if I'm not accepted into the Air Force.. I guess I could always try for the Intelligence units in Israel and/or abroad (like the Mossad.. I guess it's equivalent to the British MI6). But I still have time for that, I need to finish my school studies first (and successfully :lol:).


What's your input on this subject (Israel/Palestine) in response to me and Ava's discussion? What about the Iranian subject? :)



P.S (Offtopic) - How long have you had that picture in your sig..? seems to be as long as I can remember :lol:

[j2k4]

Explain coherently why in my case it is a benighted "right-wing prejudice", but in your case it is the vision of the anointed?

Well it's nice of you to bestow that title on me, but that's not how I see it, and my left-wing mates call me right of centre, I see things that I don't consider fair, and don't give a fuck who I upset by pointing them out. :)

I haven't bestowed anything at all on you, though that is plainly how you see yourself.

I see things as well that I don't consider to be fair, and am not the least bit worried who I piss off by pointing them out.

Insofar as that is true, we are quite the same, yet my question goes unanswered.

You tag me as a right-winger and imply that my opinions are thus invalid, while characterizing yourself as a free-thinking intellectual colossus whose mental emanations are the stuff of light and air.

You challenge me to find a Pilger piece I agree with; I can assure you he's probably written about something that concerns me as it does him, though perhaps not in quite the same way.

You, on the other hand, have opposed me on literally every point I've tried to make during our mutual history here, save a singular agreement about one Bill Gates, which fact, considering your anti-capitalist bent, I marvel over to this very day.

Now, I may be wrong on occasion, more-or-less depending on your political views, but I don't think anyone here would venture that I have been wrong as often as you would have them think.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but you should acknowledge you are aware that that is all they are, and to use them as cudgels is not an apt strategy for influencing others, which is, after all, why we do this, right?

[Mr JP Fugley]

There's a story that The Mossad were responsible for assasinating one of the scientists working on the Iranian nuclear programme. That was about a month ago.

[bigboab]

P.S (Offtopic) - How long have you had that picture in your sig..? seems to be as long as I can remember :lol:

Rafi, that is Biggles. I have seen him on a Saturday night in Kilmarnock.:rolleyes:

[j2k4]

There's a story that The Mossad were responsible for assasinating one of the scientists working on the Iranian nuclear programme. That was about a month ago.

If I say I'll accept that your story about this story is true without demanding a google, would you mind at all (at all).

I'm sure the U.N. would object to it, but I'm likewise sure the U.N. is not quite so concerned over the issue of survival.

[Biggles]

P.S (Offtopic) - How long have you had that picture in your sig..? seems to be as long as I can remember :lol:

Rafi, that is Biggles. I have seen him on a Saturday night in Kilmarnock.:rolleyes:

:snooty:

I resemble that remark. I hardly ever get guttered in Kilmarnock - the public transport from there is pish.

As to Iran I don't think an attack is likely or sensible. Iran is too big and too much of a lynchpin in the centre of the region. Also I think the Iranian people are less radical than their leaders but an attack would drive them into the arms of people like Ahmadinejad. Why make enemies of a people who yearn to move to more modern society? The nuclear genie is never going to go back into the bottle and attempts to prevent countries owning a full cycle are not going to work. Better Iran joins the nuclear club with full inspections than it does its own thing behind closed doors.

I can't see any immediate resolution to the Palestinian question because the Palestinians themselves can't see an agreed resolution.

[Mr JP Fugley]

There's a story that The Mossad were responsible for assasinating one of the scientists working on the Iranian nuclear programme. That was about a month ago.

If I say I'll accept that your story about this story is true without demanding a google, would you mind at all (at all).


Oh it is a true rumour, I couldn't possibly comment on whether there is any veracity in it.

The source is apparently Stratfor, a Texan private intelligence company. They claim the intelligence comes from well placed sources in Israel.

However the whole thing could be pish, you chose.

[SeK612]

Is there any particular reason why the Arabs have yet to get their act together in terms of a military force so they can have a real battle with Israel (as I understand it things kicked off from the moment the Jews were given land within the middle east after WWII and there was a joint effort by the Arabs but it didn't really amount to much)? - Not that a war would be good it just seems strange that Israel has nuclear bombs, planes, tanks and ships and the Arabs have rocks and unguided RPG's.

Is it just the support from America which has tipped the balance or the sanctions imposed by the West that keep the Arabs in check? I guess to a certain extent Jews are associate with wealth (so could have quickly raise the cash to defend themselves but still it's been many years now and the balance is still skewed)?

There is a big fuss about nuclear weapons so why don't the Arabs simply invest in conventional weapons instead (most countries in the West have large military forces so it would be harder to complain plus it seems the likes of Russia are more than willing to pass on equipment)?

[j2k4]

If I say I'll accept that your story about this story is true without demanding a google, would you mind at all (at all).


Oh it is a true rumour, I couldn't possibly comment on whether there is any veracity in it.

Perhaps Ava could be persuaded?

[Ava Estelle]

...a free-thinking intellectual colossus whose mental emanations are the stuff of light and air. Stop it j2, you're making me blush, I've told you before to keep the gushings to PMs.


You, on the other hand, have opposed me on literally every point I've tried to make during our mutual history here, save a singular agreement about one Bill Gates, which fact, considering your anti-capitalist bent, I marvel over to this very day. So I've opposed you ... as opposed to you having opposed me? Cute! Then you stick me with an anti-capitalist label, which is quite a laugh really as I've never, ever, said anything against capitalists or capitalism.


Now, I may be wrong on occasion, more-or-less depending on your political views, but I don't think anyone here would venture that I have been wrong as often as you would have them think. I can't say I've actually kept count of the times you were 'wrong', opinions aside, but you do yourself no favours with your constant quoting of Fox News, which is always wrong, biased and with an unashamed right-wing agenda. As you rarely quote the middle ground it would be pointless arguing a middle ground agenda with you, hence the left-wing bias, as you see it.


You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but you should acknowledge you are aware that that is all they are, and to use them as cudgels is not an apt strategy for influencing others, which is, after all, why we do this, right? I find this the most amusing part of all, as you suggest I actually claim my opinions are not opinions at all, but 'truth'. Do you add a rider to your posts pointing out they are only opinions?

So what was the point of this thread j2? Was it just a little whinge because you don't like opposing views? It seems to me that everything you accuse me of I could quite legitimately claim of you, as I'm sure you'd agree. :)

[tralalala]

Is there any particular reason why the Arabs have yet to get their act together in terms of a military force so they can have a real battle with Israel (as I understand it things kicked off from the moment the Jews were given land within the middle east after WWII and there was a joint effort by the Arabs but it didn't really amount to much)? - Not that a war would be good it just seems strange that Israel has nuclear bombs, planes, tanks and ships and the Arabs have rocks and unguided RPG's.

Is it just the support from America which has tipped the balance or the sanctions imposed by the West that keep the Arabs in check? I guess to a certain extent Jews are associate with wealth (so could have quickly raise the cash to defend themselves but still it's been many years now and the balance is still skewed)?

There is a big fuss about nuclear weapons so why don't the Arabs simply invest in conventional weapons instead (most countries in the West have large military forces so it would be harder to complain plus it seems the likes of Russia are more than willing to pass on equipment)?

Israel gets dosh from the US, just like the Palestinians get dosh from the Saudis or the Iranians. They seem to have huge amounts of Russian weapons (Hezbollah for instance), and they get training in countries like Iran. Why is it STILL skewed? Don't know.. Maybe because all of the wars were raised out of no real reason, thus motivation was in the pits.. That's probably the reason Israel won the Independence war of 1948 - How else could you explain some 200,000 Jews beating some ooohh.. about 5 million Arabs? I'm not even sure those are the right figures.. but what I do know is that there was a HUGE difference in the sizes of the forces.. So I would bank on motivation. The Jews wanted to win the war more than the Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese and Jordanians. That's probably it. From that point onward, each and every war was started as a result of the loss of the previous war. Lost honor.. You pick.

[Ava Estelle]

From that point onward, each and every war was started as a result of the loss of the previous war. Israel started the 1967 war, not their neighbours.

[SeK612]

It just feels unbalanced I guess. Perhaps that is the medias doing but the news here in Europe shows the Palestinians scrabbling around on one side throwing rocks at tanks and launching sporadic suicide bombings and the Israeli's on the other side retaliating with fighter jets and helicopters.

I guess I'm just curious as to why Israel is so powerful and why the Arabs haven't teamed up together and generally invested in better defenses and weaponry given that most clearly feel that they are in some kind of war (as America helps Israel so readily a backing of the Palestinians from the other Arab nations would be hard to complain about).

As I understand it most of the Arab nations have little or no aircraft or tanks (Saudi Arabia has some F14's and they and Oman are seeking orders for military aircraft from Europe but it's still nothing compare to other nations). A change would probably cause Israel to pause when considering strikes against the Palestinians and stop the US from wading into the middle east (I guess things may have been approached differently in actions such as the Iraq war if Iraq were well defended).

[bigboab]

I don't think either side will ever agree on this conflict.

As I understand it, the Arabs were promised all this land (By someone tangible:rolleyes:) if they fought and hunted the Turks out of that part of the Ottoman Empire. The Arab leaders did that but the promise was reneged. Lawrence who made the promise to the Arabs on behalf of the British Government was furious when the promise was not carried out. He was about to expose the reasons why the promise was reneged on when he was mysteriously 'killed' in a motorcycle accident.

So in a sense it is the promised land of the Arabs. It all depends on what parts of history you wish to ignore.:)

[tralalala]

From that point onward, each and every war was started as a result of the loss of the previous war. Israel started the 1967 war, not their neighbours.

Did you actually bother to check why Israel struck first? :)

Nasser, Egypts PM at the time, kept threatening Israel, and was quoted "If Israel wants war, then Ahalan Wa-Sahalan" (which means let's go for it then).

On top of this, the Egyptian troops were getting ever closer to the Sini border with Israel, Syria were moving their forces down the Golan Heights, and the Jodanian soldier in Jerusalem were getting ready for a strike. So, Israel decided to hit first before getting crushed by all 3 armies. Israel took out the Egyptian air-force, the Syrian troops, and the Jordanians, pushed all 3 armies miles out, and that is the reason Israel entered the "occupied territories". Because Israel had no choice.

Once again, the Arab armies were not ready to fight together, and thus got a taste of their own medicine, and were hit hard. It served them right, there was no reason for a war, so Israel did what it needed to do and finished them off in 6 days.


Off-topic - I keep asking my dad what's so special about 1967 (for a laugh), and he always tells me that's the year Celtic won the European cup :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Ava Estelle]

Did you actually bother to check why Israel struck first? I don't give a fuck why Israel claim they struck first, you intimated that Israel was attacked in 1967 and they weren't.

The real reason they attacked was the political pressure to colonise the West Bank because of the water aquifers, and the annexation of the whole of Jerusalem.

In spite of the UN resolutions, Israel refuses to leave the illegally occupied territories.

You can put all the spin on that you like, it makes no difference, Israel is the most hated country in the world, and deservedly so.

[bigboab]

Did you actually bother to check why Israel struck first? I don't give a fuck why Israel claim they struck first, you intimated that Israel was attacked in 1967 and they weren't.

The real reason they attacked was the political pressure to colonise the West Bank because of the water aquifers, and the annexation of the whole of Jerusalem.

In spite of the UN resolutions, Israel refuses to leave the illegally occupied territories.

You can put all the spin on that you like, it makes no difference, Israel is the most hated country in the world, and deservedly so.

I think J2 would disagree with that. Did you forget about America.:)

[Ava Estelle]

I think J2 would disagree with that. Did you forget about America.:) You think j2 hates America? :O

[bigboab]

I think J2 would disagree with that. Did you forget about America.:) You think j2 hates America? :O

:lol:

No, but he likes them to be the top/bottom of any international tables.:)

[tralalala]

Did you actually bother to check why Israel struck first? I don't give a fuck why Israel claim they struck first, you intimated that Israel was attacked in 1967 and they weren't.

The real reason they attacked was the political pressure to colonise the West Bank because of the water aquifers, and the annexation of the whole of Jerusalem.

In spite of the UN resolutions, Israel refuses to leave the illegally occupied territories.

You can put all the spin on that you like, it makes no difference, Israel is the most hated country in the world, and deservedly so.

Wow who brainwashed you..?
You're giving me speculations from here till tomorrow.. If you want a real good speculation, go watch "Loose Change" about 9/11.

The fact of the matter is that if Israel hadn't struck, they would have lost tens of thousands of troops and civilians. It's obvious that there was a reason. Israel doesn't strike for nothing you know. We'd be happy to give up fighting, it costs us too much.


And I bet you if you had to ask which people prefer - Israel or Palestine, most would pick Israel. Palestine is a totally f***ed up so called "state", with people at the top not giving a toss about people at the bottom. As I have said before, you are too far away to know what they are about. I know that in Oz you barely get a glimpse at what's going on around the Middle East, I have family there, that barely heard of the second Lebanese war, so please.

I've been living in a war for too long, an ongoing conflict I want an end to, but the other side is ignorant (not saying Israel isn't, but unfortunately Arabs see human life as a little worthless thing).

[Ava Estelle]

If you want a real good speculation, go watch "Loose Change" about 9/11.
That just about sums you up, anyone who'd believe the bollocks from Loose Change would believe the moon was made of green cheese.


The fact of the matter is that if Israel hadn't struck, they would have lost tens of thousands of troops and civilians. Irrelevant, you said you were invaded in 1967, a common lie the Israelis have used for forty years. You can squirm all you like, it was a lie.


And I bet you if you had to ask which people prefer - Israel or Palestine, most would pick Israel. No way, the polls have already been done, Israel was quoted as the most unpopular country in the world. No matter how many polls you look at, Israel is always in the top three hated countries, Palestine never is, the truth is, the world hates you.


As I have said before, you are too far away to know what they are about. I know that in Oz you barely get a glimpse at what's going on around the Middle East, I have family there, that barely heard of the second Lebanese war, so please.
More bollocks, you have ignorant family in Australia, so Australia must be too far away ... how old are you? You talk like a six year old. You claim to be 16, if that's true then I've spent more time in the Middle East and Asia than you have, and all as an adult. I've lived among Muslims for many years, something you haven't, so don't waste your breath telling me what they're like. I've also worked in Israel, long before you were born, and have friends who were in the Israeli Special Forces, something you'll never do. With the internet and satellite TV everyone is close to what's going on, how close you live is totally irrelevant, one of the sillier remarks you've made.


I've been living in a war for too long, an ongoing conflict I want an end to, but the other side is ignorant (not saying Israel isn't, but unfortunately Arabs see human life as a little worthless thing). Israelis are the ones who see non Jewish lives as worthless, as you do, your racism is barely below the surface.


You really are full of it, you make outrageous claims and then go quiet when you're proved wrong, like claiming Israel no longer demolish houses, among others. I suggest you either look at both sides or admit you've been brainwashed all your life.

[tralalala]

Wow.. someone's a little pissed aren't we? :)

When did I say Israel was invaded? They never were, but were going to be.

The world hates us? So what? I hate Bin Laden.. I hate plenty of people. I hate Kramer from Seinfeld, so? What's that got to do with anything? Just because you hate someone doesn't mean you need to kill 'em like the PA thinks right.

The closer you live does make a difference. The day a suicide bomber bombs himself somewhere near you (and I hope it doesn't happen), you'll understand the difference of being behind a screen and thinking you're close to it, rather than looking straight into the face of it.

Why do you say Israel thinks Jewish lives are worthless? We are the ones handing out hundreds of PA prisoners for 1 or 2 captured soldiers/civilians.. meaning every 1 Jewish life for us is like 500 Arab lives for them. So who thinks it's more worthless?

I haven't gone quiet.. That's why I keep talking back.. that's what a discussion board is for. :)

Brainwashed? We all are. Parents brainwash kids. Governments brainwash people (Nazi Germany ring a bell?).. Everyone is brainwashed, there's no mind in the world clean of brainwashing...

[Ava Estelle]

When did I say Israel was invaded? They never were, but were going to be.

You said every war after 1949 was a reaction to the last defeat.

The closer you live does make a difference. The day a suicide bomber bombs himself somewhere near you (and I hope it doesn't happen), you'll understand the difference of being behind a screen and thinking you're close to it, rather than looking straight into the face of it.

This has nothing to do with being informed, you said that because your ignorant relatives were uninformed all Australians must be.

Why do you say Israel thinks Jewish lives are worthless?

Learn to read ... show me where I said that?

I haven't gone quiet..

Yes you have ... does Israel still demolish Palestinian houses?

I've had it with you, your racism is coming to the surface and I'm not interested.

[j2k4]

Stop it j2, you're making me blush, I've told you before to keep the gushings to PMs.


You, on the other hand, have opposed me on literally every point I've tried to make during our mutual history here, save a singular agreement about one Bill Gates, which fact, considering your anti-capitalist bent, I marvel over to this very day. So I've opposed you ... as opposed to you having opposed me? Cute! Then you stick me with an anti-capitalist label, which is quite a laugh really as I've never, ever, said anything against capitalists or capitalism.

As to the question of who is opposing whom, I would assert that whoever shows up last in a thread is the opposer.

I would further posit that, nine times out of ten, I post before you do...that makes you the opposer.

Feel free to check it out.


Now, I may be wrong on occasion, more-or-less depending on your political views, but I don't think anyone here would venture that I have been wrong as often as you would have them think. I can't say I've actually kept count of the times you were 'wrong', opinions aside, but you do yourself no favours with your constant quoting of Fox News, which is always wrong, biased and with an unashamed right-wing agenda. As you rarely quote the middle ground it would be pointless arguing a middle ground agenda with you, hence the left-wing bias, as you see it.

While you're confirming my above-stated assertions, you may as well tot up the number of times I actually have quoted Fox News; you will find, I'm guessing, that it would be something less than once or twice out of every ten times I quote anything at all.


You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but you should acknowledge you are aware that that is all they are, and to use them as cudgels is not an apt strategy for influencing others, which is, after all, why we do this, right? I find this the most amusing part of all, as you suggest I actually claim my opinions are not opinions at all, but 'truth'. Do you add a rider to your posts pointing out they are only opinions?

If, while you are attempting to prove my other points wrong, you count the occurrences of the phrases "I think...", or " I believe...", or even "In my opinion...", you will find my posts rife with them.

I challenge you to find, oh, let's set the bar really low...let's say, five instances where you've used any such words, in the entire archive or your posting.

So what was the point of this thread j2? Was it just a little whinge because you don't like opposing views? It seems to me that everything you accuse me of I could quite legitimately claim of you, as I'm sure you'd agree. :)

What is the point of your question?

If you'll check, this is not even my thread.

I merely wanted to point out that you are wrong as to your own counter-assertions in answering my posts here, and I believe I can safely say that is fact, and not just my opinion. ;)

[Ava Estelle]

What is the point of your question?

Careful j2, your slip is showing! :lol:

[tralalala]

Hey Ava.. would've answered earlier but internet screwed up for some reason.


You're right you said Non-Jewish lives... but that's not true. Israel are the ones trying to target militants and not civilians.. When was the last time you saw a Palestinian militant NOT hide behind a civilian and actually target a soldier....?

This picture roughly sums that one up: http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9559/thedifferencebetweenanijq1.jpg

Ignorant relatives? They were worried sick.. And tried to get as much info. as they could.. But for instance they said hardly any news program shows anything about Iran nowadays...


Every war after 1949 was a result of the Arabs losing in the previous one.. that's what I meant.

And Israel hasn't demolished houses in a while now since there's no reason to it. They demolished houses of suicide bombers and their family.. Roughly an eye for an eye thing.. They ruined families in Israel, so we screw theirs up.. In a way it's not on.. We should act better, but when so many do it, it's hard to keep quiet.

[Ava Estelle]

You're right you said Non-Jewish lives... but that's not true. Israel are the ones trying to target militants and not civilians.. When was the last time you saw a Palestinian militant NOT hide behind a civilian and actually target a soldier....?

Again, untrue. If Israeli soldiers don't use human shields, why did the Israeli High Court ban the practise in 2005?


Ignorant relatives? They were worried sick.. And tried to get as much info. as they could.. But for instance they said hardly any news program shows anything about Iran nowadays...

Iran, Israel, Palestine, etc., is on the news and current affairs programs here EVERY day, including a dedicated news channel in at least 20 different languages, as much as any other country, and that's free to air TV. Satellite TV here has at least a dozen news channels from all over the world.


Every war after 1949 was a result of the Arabs losing in the previous one.. that's what I meant.

That still implies that Israel was invaded in 1967, it also ignores the Israeli attack on Egypt in 1956.


And Israel hasn't demolished houses in a while now since there's no reason to it. They demolished houses of suicide bombers and their family.. Roughly an eye for an eye thing..

This is just not true, as I've pointed out to you before, read this site, run by Israelis. Most demolitions are carried out to build roads to settlements and for 'security' areas around settlements, ALL of which are illegal.

The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (http://www.icahd.org/eng/news.asp?menu=5&submenu=1&item=412)

List of Demolitions (http://icahd.org/eng/articles.asp?menu=6&submenu=2&article=332)

Israeli soldiers demolished homes in three Palestinian villages near bypass road 317 on 14 February, the Christian Peacemaker Team reports. Starting in Imneizil at around 9am about forty Israeli soldiers with two bulldozers demolished one home, an animal pen and a stone bake-oven. At noon the soldiers moved to Qawawis where they demolished the homes of five families and one bake-oven, then on to Um Al-Kher where they demolished one home and damaged a wall of another home.

At Imneizil several young children were in their home eating when the Israeli military arrived; the soldiers gave the family time to get out, but did not give them time to remove their personal belongings. The animal pen was demolished with a few animals inside; two lambs were injured. The Palestinian family began immediately to build a makeshift pen for the animals as the majority of the sheep were just returning from grazing in the fields.

In the village of Qawawis one of the demolished homes was over sixty-five years old, and sheltered two families.

[tralalala]

How the hell can that imply they were invaded?! My god you can't understand that Israel attacked the other armies before they attacked them.. How the hell can you understand from those single words that Israel was invaded? I never even used the word invade/invaded.. :huh:

Just because you get all those channels doesn't mean you're not being brainwashed, does it? :) Even if not, I'm sure it gives you only one side of the story.

Israeli soldiers attack militants. Palestinian militants attack civilians AND soldiers. It's as simple as that. If Israel didn't have to worry about attacking civilians, I'm positive there wouldn't have been a Palestine... from way back over 40 years ago. But it's just a known fact Israel is more humane.

[Ava Estelle]

How the hell can that imply they were invaded?! My god you can't understand that Israel attacked the other armies before they attacked them.. How the hell can you understand from those single words that Israel was invaded? I never even used the word invade/invaded.. :huh:

Just because you get all those channels doesn't mean you're not being brainwashed, does it? :) Even if not, I'm sure it gives you only one side of the story.

Israeli soldiers attack militants. Palestinian militants attack civilians AND soldiers. It's as simple as that. If Israel didn't have to worry about attacking civilians, I'm positive there wouldn't have been a Palestine... from way back over 40 years ago. But it's just a known fact Israel is more humane.

Israel more humane? What a sick joke that is, last July you dropped cluster bombs on Lebanese civilians, killing over 1,000 of them, humane my arse!

Israeli soldiers regularly torture and kill children, there is video of them breaking bones of kids.

Video of Israeli soldiers breaking the bones of kids ..

F3sYEIABIkA

You're cracking up now, and again refuse to answer points you have been proven wrong about.

Human shields? Demolishing houses? You argue against invasions!

I've told you before, and you can believe what you like, Western media is, on the whole, immensely biased towards Israel, not the other way round.

Israel is a pariah state, murderers and torturers, in violation of every convention of human rights.

[tralalala]

Can you think of any other way to fight back at Hezbollah, who were hiding inside civilian houses? Give me a break, please, you keep talking as if the Palestinians are the most amazing people in the world. They are people who cannot get enough of themselves, until they are slapped hard in the face to bring them back to reality.

You think that video is amazing.. How about all those videos of militants chopping off heads? eh?

Human shields - Were not used as shields. They were used to help find out where the militants were hiding (and what a surprise, they were hiding in civilian houses). Demolishing houses - The houses that were demolished (WERE), belonged to people who frankly should not be allowed to breathe our air.


You seem to think I and my people do not deserve to live or speak. You seem to me like a person who would gladly wipe Israel off the map. You seem to me like most of the extreme-left wingers, which will give the Arabs everything, pay them, give them more and more money, and see what they do with it.. You seem to me like someone who will wake up only when Iran decides to bomb Australia.. Or when a Muslim decides that Australians are too western for him, and he'll go kill some with a bomb.


Honestly, it's just a matter of time.


P.S: I may have been a bit blatant, but I've really been pissed off by the fact you think Israel are the people who need to pack up and leave because they are the most horrible people in the world. I feel the worst people are the ones who aren't willing to come over and try living in such a situation with rockets flying over our heads and people who could explode within seconds in our buses, schools, malls etc.

[tralalala]

Oh and another thing.. The people in that video you claim to be Israeli soldiers.. are in fact not.

The reason being:
1) Soldiers in the Israeli army, either have their weapon in hand, or round the front. Those people have the weapons at the back.
2) They have not had haircuts.. In the Israeli army soldiers MUST have their hair cut right down.. Unlike the people in that video.
3) They don't even look Israeli.. They look more Arab..

[j2k4]

Oh and another thing.. The people in that video you claim to be Israeli soldiers.. are in fact not.

The reason being:
1) Soldiers in the Israeli army, either have their weapon in hand, or round the front. Those people have the weapons at the back.
2) They have not had haircuts.. In the Israeli army soldiers MUST have their hair cut right down.. Unlike the people in that video.
3) They don't even look Israeli.. They look more Arab..

Uh-oh, Ava...mind your slip.

[Ava Estelle]

This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned. You just keep on making excuses, and telling lies and bullshit, now you accuse me of every kind of crap.

You carry on in your nasty little world, Iran will have nukes soon, they'll give them to Hezbollah, then you'll all get what's coming to you. Peace is in the hands of Israel, who go out of their way to prevent it. If you get wiped out it will be your own fault.

Don't bother replying to this, I've had all the crap from you I can take.

[Ava Estelle]

Uh-oh, Ava...mind your slip.

If you believe that crap j2 then you're as bad as him, these videos are everywhere, it is well documented, they are Israeli soldiers.

Did you answer ilw yet? Another j2 fuck up. Ice sheets crashing into the sea are a sign of GROWTH! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tralalala]

How can you prove they are Israeli? Just because Al-Jazeera say they are, means it's true..?
All I accuse you of is not taking in the whole story so you can possibly make up your mind after seeing the WHOLE story.. I'm not here to annoy anyone or make someone feel like they hate me for arguing.. I think this conversation went pretty well, it was interesting, and now I can see what your views on the situation are :)

[j2k4]

You carry on in your nasty little world, Iran will have nukes soon, they'll give them to Hezbollah, then you'll all get what's coming to you. Peace is in the hands of Israel, who go out of their way to prevent it. If you get wiped out it will be your own fault.

I think that's a bit over over the line.

I hope the mods feel the same way.

[tralalala]

That's why I tried to soothe the conversation with my last post.. But I'm cool with it.. Ava is not the only person in the world that thinks we'll get bombed, or should get bombed.


I guess that's just life...


How are you j2k4? :)

[j2k4]

That's why I tried to soothe the conversation with my last post.. But I'm cool with it.. Ava is not the only person in the world that thinks we'll get bombed, or should get bombed.


I guess that's just life...


How are you j2k4? :)

I'm fine, thanks for asking.

Hope you are well, too, Rafi.

[tralalala]

Am indeed :) Waiting eagerly for the next phase in me getting into the IDF..

[Mr JP Fugley]

How can you prove they are Israeli? Just because Al-Jazeera say they are, means it's true..?
All I accuse you of is not taking in the whole story so you can possibly make up your mind after seeing the WHOLE story.. I'm not here to annoy anyone or make someone feel like they hate me for arguing.. I think this conversation went pretty well, it was interesting, and now I can see what your views on the situation are :)

Remember he also has the Executive Intelligence Review to rely upon. :naughty:

[tralalala]

Riiiiiight.. Forgot about that...

[digmen1]

Yes

One day.

No thinking person would want to live in an area near Iran if those idiots get hold of nuclear weapons. They would not only be mad enough to use them, but it would be easy for them to pass them on to other gorups.

I am very dissapointed at the gutless words of the UN and the International watchdog (IEA) and the Germans and the Russians and the Chinese for doing and saying nothing because they are selling heaps of stuff to Iran.

It would not take much, just a few big bombs on 2 or 3 of their nuclears sites, to know them back for a few years. Give them a weeks warning to stop right now.

Regards

Digby

[Mr JP Fugley]

Yes

One day.

No thinking person would want to live in an area near Iran if those idiots get hold of nuclear weapons. They would not only be mad enough to use them, but it would be easy for them to pass them on to other gorups.

I am very dissapointed at the gutless words of the UN and the International watchdog (IEA) and the Germans and the Russians and the Chinese for doing and saying nothing because they are selling heaps of stuff to Iran.

It would not take much, just a few big bombs on 2 or 3 of their nuclears sites, to know them back for a few years. Give them a weeks warning to stop right now.

Regards

Digby

On what particular basis are you bombing this Country.

Will you be declaring war first or just bombing them.

[bigboab]

Yes

One day.

No thinking person would want to live in an area near Iran if those idiots get hold of nuclear weapons. They would not only be mad enough to use them, but it would be easy for them to pass them on to other gorups.

I am very dissapointed at the gutless words of the UN and the International watchdog (IEA) and the Germans and the Russians and the Chinese for doing and saying nothing because they are selling heaps of stuff to Iran.

It would not take much, just a few big bombs on 2 or 3 of their nuclears sites, to know them back for a few years. Give them a weeks warning to stop right now.

Regards

Digby

So lets bomb all nuclear sites not approved by the UN.:)
This would include the sites in Israel and North Korea. Would you agree to that?

Don't be so bloody silly. If you bomb a nuclear site you are spreading radioactive material over a large area, a bit like Chernobyl. Do you really want that to happen. Or is it a case of NIMBY?

[tralalala]

NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard ? :)

[vidcc]

US generals ‘will quit’ if Bush orders Iran attack (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1434540.ece)

[digmen1]

[/QUOTE]

On what particular basis are you bombing this Country.

Will you be declaring war first or just bombing them.[/QUOTE]

Just bombing them, as I said you give them a weeks warning.

Israel attacked Iraq's facility years ago, they did nto decalre war or start a war !

I do not know if bombing a nuclear installation would release radiation, but if it did then it would be Iran's leaders fault as they had a weeks warning.

Or if that is too radical for you, you drop a few parachute brigades in, surround the place and then attack it with conventional weapons, kill all the scientists, and do as much damage as possible then copter out. - Steval Sgeal could do it.

Regards

Digby

[Mr JP Fugley]

On what particular basis are you bombing this Country.

Will you be declaring war first or just bombing them.

Just bombing them, as I said you give them a weeks warning.

Israel attacked Iraq's facility years ago, they did nto decalre war or start a war !

I do not know if bombing a nuclear installation would release radiation, but if it did then it would be Iran's leaders fault as they had a weeks warning.

Or if that is too radical for you, you drop a few parachute brigades in, surround the place and then attack it with conventional weapons, kill all the scientists, and do as much damage as possible then copter out. - Steval Sgeal could do it.

Regards

Digby

The real problem here is I don't think you're joking (other than the seagull bit).

[Ava Estelle]

I'd like to know what laws these people believe Iran has broken, or is about to break.

Is it illegal to have nuclear weapons?

The five permanent members of the Security Council, all nuclear armed, signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which obligated them to work towards the elimination of nuclear weapons, which at the time they were the sole possessors of.

None of them have taken the slightest notice of this requirement, and the UK, for example, is about to announce a multi-billion pound upgrade of it's Trident nuclear arsenal.

What right have these countries to dictate to Iran?

[bigboab]

On what particular basis are you bombing this Country.

Will you be declaring war first or just bombing them.[/quote]

Just bombing them, as I said you give them a weeks warning.

Israel attacked Iraq's facility years ago, they did nto decalre war or start a war !

I do not know if bombing a nuclear installation would release radiation, but if it did then it would be Iran's leaders fault as they had a weeks warning.

Or if that is too radical for you, you drop a few parachute brigades in, surround the place and then attack it with conventional weapons, kill all the scientists, and do as much damage as possible then copter out. - Steval Sgeal could do it.

Regards

Digby[/quote]

Can I have a loan of your action comic when you are finished with it?:rolleyes:

[digmen1]

On the basis that I am a sensible guy who loves history and knows that the UN Security Council was set up to consist mainly of the countries that fought very hard, at great cost for 6 years to stop a well known despost whose name starts with A.

They believed that their council would stop any future major wars. (I admit that the UN is a pathetic paper tiger that lets genoicide go on etc etc) but we have to accept that having this exclusive club of so called sensible countries is better than nothing.

And on the basis that we (the world) should not accept countries such as North Korea, Iran getting nuclear weapons as they would not be afraid to use them.

Britain and France did nothing to stop Hitler (when they could have) and then he became too strong and took over the whole of Europe. That is the major lesson of history.

Regards

Digby

[Mr JP Fugley]

.... the countries that fought very hard, at great cost for 6 years to stop a well known despost whose name starts with A.

Britain and France did nothing to stop Hitler. That is the major lesson of history.

Regards

Digby

Make up you mind.

[bigboab]

On the basis that I am a sensible guy who loves history and knows that the UN Security Council was set up to consist mainly of the countries that fought very hard, at great cost for 6 years to stop a well known despost whose name starts with A.

They believed that their council would stop any future major wars. (I admit that the UN is a pathetic paper tiger that lets genoicide go on etc etc) but we have to accept that having this exclusive club of so called sensible countries is better than nothing.

And on the basis that we (the world) should not accept countries such as North Korea, Iran getting nuclear weapons as they would not be afraid to use them.

Britain and France did nothing to stop Hitler (when they could have) and then he became too strong and took over the whole of Europe. That is the major lesson of history.

Regards

Digby

Please explain the above highlighted statement. Was it British holiday makers that evacuated Dunkirk? Whose troops were fighting against Hitler in Africa, Eastern Mediterranean and Scandinavia from 1939 through to 1945? What about the Australian and New Zealand forces fighting in Africa.
Prior to 1939 Britain did try to stop Hitler through diplomacy but Hitler already had his plans and would not be thwarted. You cant just invade another country just because they pose a threat. OH! wait a minute...

[Ava Estelle]

It always makes me laugh when yanks come up with this WW2 drivel.

They sat back and watched us fighting a WORLD war and did fuck all but turn it into a business.

It's interesting to note that the US didn't declare war on anyone, the Japanese and Germans both declared war on them.

Another funny story is Eisenhower, when he arrived in Paris he was told of a possible assassination attempt against him, so, being the big brave general he was, locked himself in a heavily guarded 5 star hotel and let Monty run the fighting, even placing part of the US army under Monty's control when they fucked up.

If the US had come into the war when they were supposed to, the holocaust wouldn't have happened, and the Middle East wouldn't be in the mess it's in today.

[Busyman™]

It always makes me laugh when yanks come up with this WW2 drivel.

They sat back and watched us fighting a WORLD war and did fuck all but turn it into a business.

It's interesting to note that the US didn't declare war on anyone, the Japanese and Germans both declared war on them.

Another funny story is Eisenhower, when he arrived in Paris he was told of a possible assassination attempt against him, so, being the big brave general he was, locked himself in a heavily guarded 5 star hotel and let Monty run the fighting, even placing part of the US army under Monty's control when they fucked up.

If the US had come into the war when they were supposed to, the holocaust wouldn't have happened, and the Middle East wouldn't be in the mess it's in today.

...and now the US has their nose everywhere and there are still complaints.....

[GepperRankins]

about teh US saving us in world war 2...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIR31IoXoYs

:wub:

[j2k4]

If the US had come into the war when they were supposed to, the holocaust wouldn't have happened, and the Middle East wouldn't be in the mess it's in today.

The Holocaust happened in Europe, and is the fault of the entire European community.

WWI was a European affair, caused entirely by European stupidity.

WWII was a by-product of an idiotic document called the Versailles Treaty, the punitive aspects of which caused socio-economic distress in Germany, giving rise to Hitler, and authored by a vengeful European community, led by France.

The situations in Southeast Asia (Viet Nam) as well as in the mideast (specifically Iraq, but many other Muslim countries as well) is directly attributable to British and French colonialism, and nothing else.

Literally every current problem extant in that region can be traced back to the attempted subjugation of Islamic peoples by European colonialists.

I mean, hell, you can't even blame the formation of the state of Israel on the U.S.

This is one-hundred percent true fact.

Disclaimer:

This post is the product of a lifetime of fact-gathering, undiluted by googling.

Right off the top of my head, honest.

[GepperRankins]

If the US had come into the war when they were supposed to, the holocaust wouldn't have happened, and the Middle East wouldn't be in the mess it's in today.

The Holocaust happened in Europe, and is the fault of the entire European community.

WWI was a European affair, caused entirely by European stupidity.

WWII was a by-product of an idiotic document called the Versailles Treaty, the punitive aspects of which caused socio-economic distress in Germany, giving rise to Hitler, and authored by a vengeful European community, led by France.

The situations in Southeast Asia (Viet Nam) as well as in the mideast (specifically Iraq, but many other Muslim countries as well) is directly attributable to British and French colonialism, and nothing else.

Literally every current problem extant in that region can be traced back to the attempted subjugation of Islamic peoples by European colonialists.

I mean, hell, you can't even blame the formation of the state of Israel on the U.S.

This is one-hundred percent true fact.

Disclaimer:

This post is the product of a lifetime of fact-gathering, undiluted by googling.

Right off the top of my head, honest.
i'd agree with most of that but add what europe did to germany, the UN/US do to everyone :dabs:


i'd also like to say i'd trust half an hour reading multiple sources on google more than a lifetime of fox news

[Mr JP Fugley]

I've never watched Fox News. Is it any good.

[GepperRankins]

I've never watched Fox News. Is it any good.
it's loltastic. you should try it

[Snee]

I've never watched Fox News. Is it any good.
it's loltastic. you should try it

lolol (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eat-the-press/2006/10/04/oreilly-factor-labels-_e_30927.html)


II (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn7qCzV5sNM)

[Ava Estelle]

If the US had come into the war when they were supposed to, the holocaust wouldn't have happened, and the Middle East wouldn't be in the mess it's in today.

The Holocaust happened in Europe, and is the fault of the entire European community.

What a hypocritical post, as usual.

Since 1945 the US has either invaded, started a coup to topple the government, or financed sedition, in 52 countries around the world.

They have backed right wing civilian and military dictators against the will of the people, and they have toppled democratically elected governments.

In their own back yard of Central America they are responsible for the deaths of millions of people, in an effort to maintain instability.


The situations in Southeast Asia (Viet Nam) as well as in the mideast (specifically Iraq, but many other Muslim countries as well) is directly attributable to British and French colonialism, and nothing else.
In Vietnam the US staged a phony attack as an excuse to invade, after the terms of a peace treaty was reneged on by the US, in collusion with the South Vietnamese government.

In Korea the US ignored warnings not to cross the 38th parrallel, but, being the US they ignored this and got their arse kicked by the Chinese, only stopping complete humiliation by threatening to use nukes.

All this, and more, all over the world.

And yet, when Germany invaded Poland the US did nothing, when they should have done the right thing and declared war.

Had they done so, the war would have been over in two to three years, and the holocaust would not have happened.

If the holocaust hadn't happened we wouldn't have had the mass exodus to Palestine and the mess there now.


Literally every current problem extant in that region can be traced back to the attempted subjugation of Islamic peoples by European colonialists.
After the war the US secured their supply of Middle East oil by backing, militarily, the despotic, thieving regimes that are still stealing the oil wealth from their people. This in turn led to 9\11 and the chaos we see now.



This is one-hundred percent true fact. American style!

[digmen1]

This thread is getting way out of hand.

There are some very interesting argumnets from many points of view and indeed they are all partly true.

The thread is entitled "Will the US or Israel attack Iran"

The answer is, they should do, but in a limited fashion, with plenty of warning.

Regards

Digby

[bigboab]

Any attack on Iran could lead to a major conflict. So I would say no.

[Ava Estelle]

Those who advocate attacking Iran should state under which rules they base this on,

Iran has broken no laws, international or otherwise.

To just attack a country because you don't like what they are doing, or what you think they are doing, is totally wrong.

If anyone attacks Iran, I hope the response from them is swift and deadly, and their response will be legal, unlike the attacker.

Look at the countries with nukes, US, Russia, Ukraine, China, UK, France, Israel, North Korea, India, Pakistan, and possibly South Africa and Brazil.

What right have any of those counties to tell Iran what it can do?

If Israel doesn't want it's neighbours to have nukes they should get rid of theirs, join the IAEA, and allow inspectors in.

[Snee]

If the US had come into the war when they were supposed to, the holocaust wouldn't have happened, and the Middle East wouldn't be in the mess it's in today.

The Holocaust happened in Europe, and is the fault of the entire European community.

WWI was a European affair, caused entirely by European stupidity.

WWII was a by-product of an idiotic document called the Versailles Treaty, the punitive aspects of which caused socio-economic distress in Germany, giving rise to Hitler, and authored by a vengeful European community, led by France.

The situations in Southeast Asia (Viet Nam) as well as in the mideast (specifically Iraq, but many other Muslim countries as well) is directly attributable to British and French colonialism, and nothing else.

Literally every current problem extant in that region can be traced back to the attempted subjugation of Islamic peoples by European colonialists.

I mean, hell, you can't even blame the formation of the state of Israel on the U.S.

This is one-hundred percent true fact.

Disclaimer:

This post is the product of a lifetime of fact-gathering, undiluted by googling.

Right off the top of my head, honest.

Not to be nitpicking or nothing, but if it hadn't been for America, the Japanese hadn't been in WW2 to begin with, according to some.

In the eighteen-hundreds, 1854 mainly, the U.S. "persuaded" Japan to engage in trading, by putting up a wee show of power, with ironclads and such. This is seen by some as a turning point for japan, as they turned from an isolationist policy, to an expansionist one, or somesuch, when they realised that the outside world could pose a threat.

In all fairness tho', the people making the decisions back in 1854 weren't the same people who were around during WWII, but nor do I reckon that everyone involved in WWI or setting up that treaty were making decisions in WWII.

The serb who kicked the first war off sure wasn't around :dabs:


EDit: speaking of bad decisions, and making your own bed, I mean.

[kayvanblue]

Those who advocate attacking Iran should state under which rules they base this on,

Iran has broken no laws, international or otherwise.

To just attack a country because you don't like what they are doing, or what you think they are doing, is totally wrong.

If anyone attacks Iran, I hope the response from them is swift and deadly, and their response will be legal, unlike the attacker.

Look at the countries with nukes, US, Russia, Ukraine, China, UK, France, Israel, North Korea, India, Pakistan, and possibly South Africa and Brazil.

What right have any of those counties to tell Iran what it can do?

If Israel doesn't want it's neighbours to have nukes they should get rid of theirs, join the IAEA, and allow inspectors in.

I totally agree...i was monitoring this thread for a long time! it s very interesting for me when i see how easily some people argue about some other nation 's future!
attacking iran means bombing people also means killing people! which people!? those who happens to live by the strategic areas...They will die just because someone in USA does not like thier government to be armed with possible Nuclear weapons! yeh lets kill em in advance just in case they go crazy in future and deicide to kill some Westerners!

[Busyman™]

Those who advocate attacking Iran should state under which rules they base this on,

Iran has broken no laws, international or otherwise.

To just attack a country because you don't like what they are doing, or what you think they are doing, is totally wrong.

If anyone attacks Iran, I hope the response from them is swift and deadly, and their response will be legal, unlike the attacker.

Look at the countries with nukes, US, Russia, Ukraine, China, UK, France, Israel, North Korea, India, Pakistan, and possibly South Africa and Brazil.

What right have any of those counties to tell Iran what it can do?

If Israel doesn't want it's neighbours to have nukes they should get rid of theirs, join the IAEA, and allow inspectors in.

I totally agree...i was monitoring this thread for a long time! it s very interesting for me when i see how easily some people argue about some other nation 's future!
attacking iran means bombing people also means killing people! which people!? those who happens to live by the strategic areas...They will die just because someone in USA does not like thier government to be armed with possible Nuclear weapons! yeh lets kill em in advance just in case they go crazy in future and deicide to kill some Westerners!

The argument about Iran is valid. However, I don't anyone who advocates going to war with them.

[Ava Estelle]

The argument about Iran is valid. However, I don't anyone who advocates going to war with them.

The thread is entitled "Will the US or Israel attack Iran"
The answer is, they should do, but in a limited fashion, with plenty of warning.





On the basis that I am a sensible guy who loves history and knows that the UN Security Council was set up to consist mainly of the countries that fought very hard, at great cost for 6 years to stop a well known despost whose name starts with A. Most of the countries in the UN had nothing to do with the war. The Security Council has five permanent members, only one of which, Britain, fought Hitler for six years.

I take it you didn't pass your history exams. :)

[Marconis]

The US won't attack Iran. They'll have Israel do it for them.

[goobieghoulash]

no way

[lynx]

If the US had come into the war when they were supposed to, the holocaust wouldn't have happened, and the Middle East wouldn't be in the mess it's in today.

The Holocaust happened in Europe, and is the fault of the entire European community.

WWI was a European affair, caused entirely by European stupidity.

WWII was a by-product of an idiotic document called the Versailles Treaty, the punitive aspects of which caused socio-economic distress in Germany, giving rise to Hitler, and authored by a vengeful European community, led by France.

The situations in Southeast Asia (Viet Nam) as well as in the mideast (specifically Iraq, but many other Muslim countries as well) is directly attributable to British and French colonialism, and nothing else.

Literally every current problem extant in that region can be traced back to the attempted subjugation of Islamic peoples by European colonialists.

I mean, hell, you can't even blame the formation of the state of Israel on the U.S.

This is one-hundred percent true fact.

Disclaimer:

This post is the product of a lifetime of fact-gathering, undiluted by googling.

Right off the top of my head, honest.
A follower of Stephen Grasse? As far as I can make out he believes Britain was even responsible for Katrina.

He better watch out though, we've got another butterfly. :yup:

Sorry for the late response btw, I was unfortunately stuck in sunny Spain for a week.

[j2k4]

The Holocaust happened in Europe, and is the fault of the entire European community.

WWI was a European affair, caused entirely by European stupidity.

WWII was a by-product of an idiotic document called the Versailles Treaty, the punitive aspects of which caused socio-economic distress in Germany, giving rise to Hitler, and authored by a vengeful European community, led by France.

The situations in Southeast Asia (Viet Nam) as well as in the mideast (specifically Iraq, but many other Muslim countries as well) is directly attributable to British and French colonialism, and nothing else.

Literally every current problem extant in that region can be traced back to the attempted subjugation of Islamic peoples by European colonialists.

I mean, hell, you can't even blame the formation of the state of Israel on the U.S.

This is one-hundred percent true fact.

Disclaimer:

This post is the product of a lifetime of fact-gathering, undiluted by googling.

Right off the top of my head, honest.
A follower of Stephen Grasse? As far as I can make out he believes Britain was even responsible for Katrina.

He better watch out though, we've got another butterfly. :yup:

Sorry for the late response btw, I was unfortunately stuck in sunny Spain for a week.

Don't know this Grasse fellow.

Sunny Spain, eh?

That is unfortunate...for the rest of us.

Drinks were on you, too. :(

[vipdiablo]

only fool will do that and both of bosh and olmart are so u can expext any thing iam egypthian and i dont want iserail do that couz they may got pomped with some nucks and of course we will damge so i hope that olmart dont do any thing dumyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[100%]

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6946/238625650f565a3884fks9.jpg

[j2k4]

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6946/238625650f565a3884fks9.jpg

So Iran's a target, huh?

Sounds like faulty intelligence to me.

[thewizeard]

That sounds a little too much like, "Famous Last Words," j2k34 :)

[j2k4]

That sounds a little too much like, "Famous Last Words," j2k34 :)

That would be incorrect.

It should sound like the pure smart-ass that it is. ;)

[macking]

Middle East is full of oil and a good friend of China the upcoming superpower.

Now is a good time to steal all that oil away from China.

Considering the history China has with the West in about 50 years when they overpower pretty much the whole of the West alone they won't be so friendly me thinks.

Good time to grab resources, thats your war on terror.

[Skiz]

Middle East is full of oil and a good friend of China the upcoming superpower.

Now is a good time to steal all that oil away from China.

Considering the history China has with the West in about 50 years when they overpower pretty much the whole of the West alone they won't be so friendly me thinks.

Good time to grab resources, thats your war on terror.

Was any of that intended to be taken seriously? :ermm:

[thewizeard]

In any case, as I mentioned earlier, it would certainly be a fool that attacks Iran. I immediately thought, Bush, as he seems to fit that description, after the capture of British Troops, today, it could be Blair after all ...

[j2k4]

In any case, as I mentioned earlier, it would certainly be a fool that attacks Iran. I immediately thought, Bush, as he seems to fit that description, after the capture of British Troops, today, it could be Blair after all ...

And if Iran attacks, say, Israel?

[Biggles]

In any case, as I mentioned earlier, it would certainly be a fool that attacks Iran. I immediately thought, Bush, as he seems to fit that description, after the capture of British Troops, today, it could be Blair after all ...

And if Iran attacks, say, Israel?

Possible but I don't think any of the sides have tired of the annoying poking and prodding stuff yet.

[bigboab]

In any case, as I mentioned earlier, it would certainly be a fool that attacks Iran. I immediately thought, Bush, as he seems to fit that description, after the capture of British Troops, today, it could be Blair after all ...

And if Iran attacks, say, Israel?

What if Israel attacks Iran first?

[thewizeard]

And if Iran attacks, say, Israel?

What if Israel attacks Iran first?

:O I have a byeicycle :huh:

[bigboab]

What if Israel attacks Iran first?

:O I have a byeicycle :huh:

J2 has been telling you that things come in cycles.:)

[macking]

Middle East is full of oil and a good friend of China the upcoming superpower.

Now is a good time to steal all that oil away from China.

Considering the history China has with the West in about 50 years when they overpower pretty much the whole of the West alone they won't be so friendly me thinks.

Good time to grab resources, thats your war on terror.

Was any of that intended to be taken seriously? :ermm:

According to Whitehouse intelligence the SCO is China's attempt at a mad
resource grab and anti-American venture in the long term, look it up.

[j2k4]

:O I have a byeicycle :huh:

J2 has been telling you that things come on cycles.:)

Fixed.

Whole divisions of the Iranian army have been "mobilized" thus.

I see nobody answered my question.

Ah, well...

[Biggles]

J2 has been telling you that things come on cycles.:)

Fixed.

Whole divisions of the Iranian army have been "mobilized" thus.

I see nobody answered my question.

Ah, well...


:snooty: I agreed it was a possibility but that there is more posturing to be done first.

[j2k4]

Fixed.

Whole divisions of the Iranian army have been "mobilized" thus.

I see nobody answered my question.

Ah, well...


:snooty: I agreed it was a possibility but that there is more posturing to be done first.

Oh, sorry.

Forgot about the posturing...I'd be a lousy diplomat. :huh:

[thewizeard]

Your country has been building naval forces in the area. Every military centre, Uranium enrichment centres you can be sure is targeted and certain civilian infrastructure too, will be "taken out" in the Father of all Nights.
Iran has just "preempted", or rather catalysed the situation by attacking the UK, in taking those marines captive... It's difficult to say who will blink first. Mr. Blair might just seize this situation, to regain some of his lost "esteem. One thing is certain, it will be over soon.

* Israel will only get involved if Iran does an "Iraq" on it and starts firing Scuds or worse to save it's face, IMO ..

Perhaps time to tidy the study.

[macking]

I actually heard South Africa and Indonesia got an agreement with Iran that they wouldnt possess any nuclear fuel period if the entire middle east was denuclearized.

When they bought it to the UN though the Americans shot it down.

[SeK612]

Surely it'd be suicide for Iran to attack Israel? Israel would thrash them given their armed forces are much better equipped and they're bound to be back by the US (whilst Europe sits on the fence condemning the Israeli offensive but not acting as usual).

I'd hope the UK would look to a diplomatic solution before declaring anything (the shoot first ask questions later is America's solution not Europe's :)).

[kammi]

Israel would smash Iran

Israel have more nuclear weapons than UK, so Israel can handle any arab pressure, regardless of any UK help. Israel have defended themselves before, and proved worthy opponents (obviously, without US funding & aid, they are nothing). Israel have already been using depleted uranium in lebanon, so I wouldnt put it past them to use more depleted uranium.

Whether Iran should have weapons is another story. I think nobody should have nuclear weapons, but when countries close to Iran have nuclear weapons, its only natural that Iran would want them too..
Typical double standards.
I say if we are gonna get rid of the nuclear weapons from the middle east, then we should do so, by starting with Israel itself leading the way.

Kammi

[macking]

Israel really needs nuclear weapons.

I mean think about it right now Israel is untouchable thanks to the US but in a few years China will be the superpower the US kneels before.

Then Iran will be in the position Israel is in now with the most powerful ally on the planet.

Iran will obviously obtain nuclear weapons then and theyll be pushing Israel around returning the favor.

It's hard to predict what the worlds going to come to.

America is under huge debt and China is making more money than they can handle, the Chinese President Hu Jintao put a governing body together to work out a way to bring LESS money into China!

Russia is an upcoming giant too with huge energy resources and India is a rising giant too.

Few decades the world wont be the same place it is now which means the tables will turn.

[eternalsin]

I think Israel if they feel that Iran is a definite threat to the region will launch a preemptive strike against Iran. Who is gonna stop Israel? No one will because a majority of the world will be behind Israel side. As long as the US backs up Israel no one will mess with Israel. Even though China is making a lot of money, a majority of China's population is living in poverty. I do see the US losing its superpower status in the future though.

[macking]

According to whitehouse officials China will be in the clear lead by 2025 and dwarf America by 2050.