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j2k4
02-21-2007, 10:45 PM
...in three easily-read and understood parts...


Global Hot Air
By Thomas Sowell
Tuesday, February 13, 2007


The political left's favorite argument is that there is no argument. Their current crusade is to turn "global warming" into one of those things that supposedly no honest and decent person can disagree about, as they have already done with "diversity" and "open space."

The name of "science" is invoked by the left today, as it has been for more than two centuries. After all, Karl Marx's ideology was called "scientific socialism" in the 19th century. In the 18th century, Condorcet analogized his blueprint for a better society to engineering, and social engineering has been the agenda ever since.

Not all the advocates of "global warming" are on the left, of course. Crusades are not just for crusaders. There are always hangers-on who can turn the true believers' crusades into votes or money or at least notoriety.

Whether the globe really is warming is a question about facts -- and about where those facts are measured: on land, in the air or under the sea. There is no question that there is a "greenhouse" effect. Otherwise, half the planet would freeze every night when there is no sunlight falling on it.

There is also no question that the earth can warm or cool. It has done both at one time or another for thousands of years, even before there were SUVs. If there had never been any global warming before, we wouldn't be able to enjoy Yosemite Valley today for it was once buried under thousands of feet of ice.

Back in the 1970s, the environmental hysteria was about the dangers of a new ice age. This hysteria was spread by many of the same individuals and groups who are promoting today's hysteria about global warming.

It is not just the sky that is falling. Government money is falling on those who seek grants to study global warming and produce "solutions" for it. But that money is not as likely to fall on those skeptics in the scientific community who refuse to join the stampede.

Yes, Virginia, there are skeptics about global warming among scientists who study weather and climate. There are arguments both ways -- which is why so many in politics and in the media are so busy selling the notion that there is no argument.

If you heard both arguments, you might not be so willing to go along with those who are prepared to ruin the economy, sacrificing jobs and the national standard of living on the altar to the latest in an unending series of crusades, conducted by politicians and other people seeking to tell everyone else how to live.

What about all those scientists mentioned, cited or quoted by global warming crusaders?

There are all kinds of scientists, from chemists to nuclear physicists to people who study insects, volcanoes, and endocrine glands -- none of whom is an expert on weather or climate, but all of whom can be listed as scientists, to impress people who don't scrutinize the list any further. That ploy has already been used.

Then there are genuine scientific experts on weather and climate. The National Academy of Sciences came out with a report on global warming back in 2001 with a very distinguished list of such experts listed. The problem is that not one of those very distinguished scientists actually wrote the report -- or even saw it before it was published.

One of those very distinguished climate scientists -- Richard S. Lindzen of MIT -- publicly repudiated the conclusions of that report, even though his name had been among those used as window dressing on the report. But the media may not have told you that.

In short, there has been a full court press to convince the public that "everybody knows" that a catastrophic global warming looms over us, that human beings are the cause of it, and that the only solution is to turn more money and power over to the government to stop us from our dangerous ways of living.

Among the climate experts who are not part of that "everybody" are not only Professor Lindzen but also Fred Singer and Dennis Avery, whose book "Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1500 Years," punctures the hot air balloon of the global warming crusaders. So does the book "Shattered Consensus," edited by Patrick J. Michaels, professor of environmental sciences at the University of Virginia, which contains essays by others who are not part of "everybody."


Global Hot Air: Part II
By Thomas Sowell
Wednesday, February 14, 2007

Propaganda campaigns often acquire a life of their own. Politicians who have hitched their wagons to the star of "global warming" cannot admit any doubts on their part, or permit any doubts by others from becoming part of a public debate.

Neither can environmental crusaders, whose whole sense of themselves as saviors of the planet is at stake, as they try to stamp out any views to the contrary.

A recent and revealing example of the ruthless attempts to silence anyone who dares question the global warming crusade began with a "news" story in the British newspaper "The Guardian." It quickly found an echo among American Senators on the left -- Bernard Sanders, an avowed socialist, and John Kerry, Pat Leahy and Dianne Feinstein, who are unavowed.

The headline of the "news" story said it all: "Scientists Offered Cash to Dispute Climate Study." According to "The Guardian," scientists and economists "have been offered $10,000 each by a lobby group funded by one of the world's largest oil companies to undermine a major climate change report."

It is a classic notion on the left in general, and of environmentalist zealots in particular, that no one can disagree with them unless they are either uninformed or dishonest. Here they dispose of scientists who are skeptical of the global warming hysteria by depicting them as being bribed by lobbyists for the oil companies.

While such charges may be enough for crusading zealots to wrap themselves ever more tightly in the mantle of virtue, some of us are still old-fashioned enough to want to know the actual facts.

In this case, the fact is that the American Enterprise Institute -- a think tank, not a lobbyist -- did what all kinds of think tanks do, all across the political spectrum, all across the country, and all around the world.

AEI has planned a roundtable discussion of global warming, attended by people with differing views on the subject. That was their fundamental sin, in the eyes of the global warming crowd. They treated this as an issue, rather than a dogma.

Like liberal, conservative, and other think tanks, the American Enterprise Institute pays people who do the work of preparing scholarly papers for presentation at its roundtables. Ten thousand dollars is not an unusual amount and many have received more from other think tanks for similar work.

Enter Senators Sanders, Kerry, Leahy, and Feinstein. In a joint letter to the head of the American Enterprise Institute, they express shock, shock, like the corrupt police official in "Casablanca."

These Senators express "our very serious concerns" about reports that AEI "offered to pay scientists up to $10,000 for questioning the findings" of other scientists. The four Senators express how "saddened" they would be if the reports are true, "by the depths to which some would sink to undermine the scientific consensus" on global warming.

If the reports are true, the Senators continue, "it would highlight the extent to which moneyed interests distort honest scientific and public policy discussions" by "bribing scientists to support a pre-determined agenda."

The Senators ask: "Does your donors' self-interest trump an honest discussion over the well-being of the planet?" They demand that "AEI will publicly apologize for this conduct."

As the late Art Buchwald once said about comedy and farce in Washington, "You can't make that up!"

If it is a bribe to pay people for doing work, then we are all bribed every day, except for those who inherited enough money not to have to work at all. Among those invited to attend the AEI roundtable are some of the same scientists who produced the recent report that politicians, environmentalists, and the media tout as the last word on global warming.

The trump card of the left is that one of the big oil companies contributed money to the American Enterprise Institute -- not as much as one percent of its budget, but enough for a smear.

All think tanks have contributors or they could not exist. But facts carry little weight in smears, even by politicians who question other people's honesty.


Global Hot Air: Part III
By Thomas Sowell
Thursday, February 15, 2007


If you take the mainstream media seriously, you might think that every important scientist believes that "global warming" poses a great threat, and that we need to make drastic changes in the way we live, in order to avoid catastrophes to the environment, to various species, and to ourselves.

The media play a key role in perpetuating such beliefs. Often they seize upon every heat wave to hype global warming, but see no implications in record-setting cold weather, such as many places have been experiencing lately.

Remember how the unusually large number of hurricanes a couple of years ago was hyped in the media as being a result of global warming, with more such hurricanes being predicted to return the following year and the years thereafter?

But, when not one hurricane struck the United States all last year, the media had little or nothing to say about the false predictions they had hyped. It's heads I win and tails you lose.

Are there serious scientists who specialize in weather and climate who have serious doubts about the doomsday scenarios being pushed by global warming advocates? Yes, there are.

There is Dr. S. Fred Singer, who set up the American weather satellite system, and who published some years ago a book titled "Hot Talk, Cold Science." More recently, he has co-authored another book on the subject, "Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1500 Years."

There have been periods of global warming that lasted for centuries -- and periods of global cooling that also lasted for centuries. So the issue is not whether the world is warmer now than at some time in the past but how much of that warming is due to human beings and how much can we reduce future warming, even if we drastically reduce our standard of living in the attempt.

Other serious scientists who are not on the global warming bandwagon include a professor of meteorology at MIT, Richard S. Lindzen.

His name was big enough for the National Academy of Sciences to list it among the names of other experts on its 2001 report that was supposed to end the debate by declaring the dangers of global warming proven scientifically.

Professor Lindzen then objected and pointed out that neither he nor any of the other scientists listed ever saw that report before it was published. It was in fact written by government bureaucrats -- as was the more recently published summary report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that is also touted as the final proof and the end of the discussion.

You want more experts who think otherwise? Try a professor of environmental sciences at the University of Virginia, Patrick J. Michaels, who refers to the much ballyhooed 2001 IPCC summary as having "misstatements and errors" that he calls "egregious."

A professor of climatology at the University of Delaware, David R. Legates, likewise referred to the 2001 IPCC summary as being "often in direct contrast with the scientific report that accompanies it." It is the summaries that the media hype. The full 2007 report has not even been published yet.

Skeptical experts in other countries around the world include Duncan Wingham, a professor of climate physics at the University College, London, and Nigel Weiss of Cambridge University.

The very attempt to silence all who disagree about global warming ought to raise red flags.

Anyone who remembers the 1970s should remember the Club of Rome report that was supposed to be the last word on economic growth grinding to a halt, "overpopulation" and a rapidly approaching era of mass starvation in the 1980s.

In reality, the 1980s saw increased economic growth around the world and, far from mass starvation, an increase in obesity and agricultural surpluses in many countries. But much of the media went for the Club of Rome report and hyped the hysteria.

Many in the media resent any suggestion that they are either shilling for an ideological agenda or hyping whatever will sell newspapers or get higher ratings on TV.

Here is their chance to check out some heavyweight scientists specializing in weather and climate, instead of taking Al Gore's movie or the pronouncements of government bureaucrats and politicians as the last word.




Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy.

Everose
02-22-2007, 02:03 AM
J2, I had forgotten the hysteria about the ice age in the 70's.

Ava Estelle
02-22-2007, 05:16 AM
Hahaha! Thomas Sowell, the famous Global Warming scientist! :whistling

You really are a joke j2 ... don't ever change! :lol:

Barbarossa
02-22-2007, 09:27 AM
Anyone who remembers the 1970s should remember the Club of Rome report that was supposed to be the last word on economic growth grinding to a halt, "overpopulation" and a rapidly approaching era of mass starvation in the 1980s.


Do you not even remember Ethiopia in 1984? :blink:

Ava Estelle
02-22-2007, 11:29 AM
Anyone who remembers the 1970s should remember the Club of Rome report that was supposed to be the last word on economic growth grinding to a halt, "overpopulation" and a rapidly approaching era of mass starvation in the 1980s.

Anyone who remembers the 70's wasn't having a good time, and certainly wasn't smoking what I was smoking!

j2k4
02-22-2007, 09:11 PM
Anyone who remembers the 1970s should remember the Club of Rome report that was supposed to be the last word on economic growth grinding to a halt, "overpopulation" and a rapidly approaching era of mass starvation in the 1980s.


Do you not even remember Ethiopia in 1984? :blink:

Is it your view that the situation in Ethiopia is characteristic of any sort of global condition?

The entire African continent is of a piece economically, culturally and socially, because all of the massive aid given over the last four decades never makes it to it's intended target before it is siphoned off by some political strongman or dictator, and it is for no other reason that Africa is in such dire straits.

Ava wants to keep throwing money at the situation in order to assuage his conscience, but wouldn't ever want to be on the ground there with an effective plan.


Hahaha! Thomas Sowell, the famous Global Warming scientist! :whistling

You really are a joke j2 ... don't ever change! :lol:

Sowell doesn't attempt to practice any science here, in case you hadn't noticed; he merely takes what is there for all to see and presents it.

His knack for doing this reminds me of an excerpt I saw of Al Gore's movie, which I will confess I haven't watched, but that is neither here nor there.

The voice-over (Gore) states that glaciers are receding everywhere, and sea-levels will soon rise twenty feet.

The irony is that, while he's banging on about receding glaciers, on the screen is depicted huge glacial "calving" events, wherein massive chunks of ice break from the parent ice-pack and fall quite spectacularly into the ocean.

For those who aren't aware, calving is a sign of glacial growth.

An Inconvenient Truth, indeed. :)

Ava Estelle
02-23-2007, 06:18 AM
:) Global warming sceptics such as youself are the modern day dinosaurs, you will soon be extinct.

You remind me of Nero ... do you fiddle? :O

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (http://www.ipcc.ch/)

:)

GepperRankins
02-23-2007, 07:43 AM
http://maps.grida.no/library/files/satellite_observations_of_the_polar_ice_cap_1979_and_2003.jpg


dance around that :dabs:

ilw
02-23-2007, 08:17 AM
The voice-over (Gore) states that glaciers are receding everywhere, and sea-levels will soon rise twenty feet.

The irony is that, while he's banging on about receding glaciers, on the screen is depicted huge glacial "calving" events, wherein massive chunks of ice break from the parent ice-pack and fall quite spectacularly into the ocean.

For those who aren't aware, calving is a sign of glacial growth.

An Inconvenient Truth, indeed. :)

care to read up on the subject and revise the above statements?

bigboab
02-23-2007, 08:57 AM
http://maps.grida.no/library/files/satellite_observations_of_the_polar_ice_cap_1979_and_2003.jpg


dance around that :dabs:

There is a large loss of ice to the bottom of the picture(2003). Strangely there is also quiet a bit of additional ice to the top of the picture(2003). I wonder what the actual total loss is and why this area at the top has frozen when the bottom part has melted. Is this just a 'shift' of polar ice? There is no apparent ice loss on the land masses in fact I would say there is more ice on the land.. Say what you see.:lol:

Barbarossa
02-23-2007, 09:46 AM
Do you not even remember Ethiopia in 1984? :blink:

Is it your view that the situation in Ethiopia is characteristic of any sort of global condition?


No, I'm pointing out that whoever wrote that article is glossing over the fact that there was some occurrence of mass starvation in the 1980's.

Barbarossa
02-23-2007, 09:48 AM
http://maps.grida.no/library/files/satellite_observations_of_the_polar_ice_cap_1979_and_2003.jpg


dance around that :dabs:

There is distinctly less ice in the second picture :dabs:

However, I have read reports that this epoch of the Earth is unusual in that there is ice at both poles at the same time.

Perhaps the climate is actually rebalancing itself :unsure:

The fact of the matter is, we don't know. But it doesn't mean we don't have to try and minimize our impact on it.

We can't afford to be wrong, after all.

Ava Estelle
02-23-2007, 09:58 AM
We can't afford to be wrong, after all.

And that's the whole point, we CAN"T afford to be wrong, and cleaning up our act can do nothing but good ... except to those who have an interest in keeping things the way they are, like the oil companies, and those who stand to make a financial gain from being sceptical, like the book writers and video makers claiming there is no global warming.

bigboab
02-23-2007, 10:32 AM
We can't afford to be wrong, after all.

And that's the whole point, we CAN"T afford to be wrong, and cleaning up our act can do nothing but good ... except to those who have an interest in keeping things the way they are, like the oil companies, and those who stand to make a financial gain from being sceptical, like the book writers and video makers claiming there is no global warming.

IMO the biggest cause of global warming, and lung problems, is the fumes from cars. If you don't believe me take a look at the pollution that hangs around the major cities. Especially in America. I can vouch for the difference in roadside vegetation since I was a kid 60 years ago. There was an abundance of it then. Now everything is dying or dead.

Sixty years ago there was approximately one car per street. Now there is more than one car per household. To counteract this we could all drive electric cars. They could have Battery Changing Stations instead of Petrol stations. They now have electric cars that can go more than 150 miles per charge and can go at a reasonable speed. Are we willing to make this change? I doubt it.

When I was young the cases of Asthma were few and far between and generally 'ran' in families. Now there is a sharp rise in the amount of Asthma cases. What has this to do with car fumes I hear you cry?:rolleyes:. The inhalation of fumes from cars mimics the symptoms of Asthma. Couple that with poor diagnosis, which is common nowadays, and you end up with more cases of Asthma.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?source=ig&hl=en&q=carbon+monoxide+poisoning+mimics+Asthma&meta=

vidcc
02-23-2007, 02:35 PM
There is a large loss of ice to the bottom of the picture(2003). Strangely there is also quiet a bit of additional ice to the top of the picture(2003). I wonder what the actual total loss is and why this area at the top has frozen when the bottom part has melted. Is this just a 'shift' of polar ice? There is no apparent ice loss on the land masses in fact I would say there is more ice on the land.. Say what you see.:lol:

Global combover

gamer4eva
02-23-2007, 02:39 PM
Seriously looking at that i can tell there is masses of change that has occured over the years.

Biggles
02-23-2007, 03:53 PM
Seriously looking at that i can tell there is masses of change that has occured over the years.

I didn't see any baby cows at all. :(

GepperRankins
02-23-2007, 05:26 PM
http://maps.grida.no/library/files/satellite_observations_of_the_polar_ice_cap_1979_and_2003.jpg


dance around that :dabs:

There is distinctly less ice in the second picture :dabs:

However, I have read reports that this epoch of the Earth is unusual in that there is ice at both poles at the same time.

Perhaps the climate is actually rebalancing itself :unsure:

The fact of the matter is, we don't know. But it doesn't mean we don't have to try and minimize our impact on it.

We can't afford to be wrong, after all.
i was waiting for j2 to say that it's notproven to be humanses fault. then i was gonna be like "if an asteroid was on a collision course with earth, would we be like 'yeah, well we didn't put it there' and just let it pwn us all?" :emo:

bigboab
02-23-2007, 06:57 PM
There is distinctly less ice in the second picture :dabs:

However, I have read reports that this epoch of the Earth is unusual in that there is ice at both poles at the same time.

Perhaps the climate is actually rebalancing itself :unsure:

The fact of the matter is, we don't know. But it doesn't mean we don't have to try and minimize our impact on it.

We can't afford to be wrong, after all.
i was waiting for j2 to say that it's notproven to be humanses fault. then i was gonna be like "if an asteroid was on a collision course with earth, would we be like 'yeah, well we didn't put it there' and just let it pwn us all?" :emo:

That is like an argument with my wife.
'I did not say that, in fact I was not there at the time'
'Yes, but that is what you would have said if you had been there'.:lol:

j2k4
02-24-2007, 12:47 AM
The voice-over (Gore) states that glaciers are receding everywhere, and sea-levels will soon rise twenty feet.

The irony is that, while he's banging on about receding glaciers, on the screen is depicted huge glacial "calving" events, wherein massive chunks of ice break from the parent ice-pack and fall quite spectacularly into the ocean.

For those who aren't aware, calving is a sign of glacial growth.

An Inconvenient Truth, indeed. :)

care to read up on the subject and revise the above statements?

Actually, no; I'm good.

kazaaman
02-24-2007, 03:17 AM
Oh j2, stubborn as usual :)

ilw
02-24-2007, 10:57 AM
The voice-over (Gore) states that glaciers are receding everywhere, and sea-levels will soon rise twenty feet.

The irony is that, while he's banging on about receding glaciers, on the screen is depicted huge glacial "calving" events, wherein massive chunks of ice break from the parent ice-pack and fall quite spectacularly into the ocean.

For those who aren't aware, calving is a sign of glacial growth.

An Inconvenient Truth, indeed. :)

well if you can't be arsed neither can i. For those who aren't aware J2 is talking out of his backside.

Ava Estelle
02-24-2007, 11:06 AM
For those who aren't aware J2 is talking out of his backside.

Don't tell me you've only just worked that out? :)

j2k4
02-24-2007, 01:46 PM
The voice-over (Gore) states that glaciers are receding everywhere, and sea-levels will soon rise twenty feet.

The irony is that, while he's banging on about receding glaciers, on the screen is depicted huge glacial "calving" events, wherein massive chunks of ice break from the parent ice-pack and fall quite spectacularly into the ocean.

For those who aren't aware, calving is a sign of glacial growth.

An Inconvenient Truth, indeed. :)

care to read up on the subject and revise the above statements?

I've changed my mind about replying, as it is entirely possible in this day and age that you are not aware that calving occurs when a glacier grows beyond the parent land-mass and extends, unsupported, over water.

It's great weight comes to bear, and calving occurs.

I'm well-aware Al Gore would have you believe otherwise, but it really is that simple.

That the entire global-warming apparatus is engaged in an effort to hide or obscure this simple fact from you is significant, wouldn't you say?

The presentation of global-warming "data" is fraught with similar instances of "scientific" dishonesty.

bigboab
02-24-2007, 02:13 PM
The voice-over (Gore) states that glaciers are receding everywhere, and sea-levels will soon rise twenty feet.

The irony is that, while he's banging on about receding glaciers, on the screen is depicted huge glacial "calving" events, wherein massive chunks of ice break from the parent ice-pack and fall quite spectacularly into the ocean.

For those who aren't aware, calving is a sign of glacial growth.

An Inconvenient Truth, indeed. :)

well if you can't be arsed neither can i. For those who aren't aware J2 is talking out of his backside.

I don't think this would add a lot to global warming. Unless you set light to it.:)

ilw
02-24-2007, 02:44 PM
care to read up on the subject and revise the above statements?

I've changed my mind about replying, as it is entirely possible in this day and age that you are not aware that calving occurs when a glacier grows beyond the parent land-mass and extends, unsupported, over water.

It's great weight comes to bear, and calving occurs.


calving isn't a sign of anything. Glaciers have been calving every day for the last x million years, even during the ice ages.

Calving is when a section of glacier which is over water is insufficiently supported and breaks off. There are a bunch of reasons why a section might not be sufficiently supported e.g., glacial advance, the glacier retreating from its moraine shelf, addition of weight (e.g. fresh snow), glacial thinning due to melting etc...

A simple google search will tell you all you need to know about glacier calving, the information isn't being witheld from you, there isn't a global conspiracy out to fool you.

j2k4
02-24-2007, 02:59 PM
calving isn't a sign of anything. Glaciers have been calving every day for the last x million years, even during the ice ages.



Ah, thank you very much for obliging my argument, Ian; I actually thought it would be someone else.

If, as you say, "calving isn't a sign of anything", then why is Al Gore so reliant on the imagery to convince you he's right?

And you fall for it.

Amazing.

I rest my case, with your unwitting help.

GepperRankins
02-24-2007, 04:00 PM
calving isn't a sign of anything. Glaciers have been calving every day for the last x million years, even during the ice ages.



Ah, thank you very much for obliging my argument, Ian; I actually thought it would be someone else.

If, as you say, "calving isn't a sign of anything", then why is Al Gore so reliant on the imagery to convince you he's right?

And you fall for it.

Amazing.

I rest my case, with your unwitting help.
:dabs:

who falls for what? it's a fact that sea ice is melting.

ilw
02-24-2007, 04:40 PM
Umm i haven't fallen for anything, I haven't even seen the film and I haven't given you anything 'unwittingly'. I wasn't arguing with you about global warming, I merely wanted you to retract some incorrect statements because some people might think you know what you're talking about.

The voice-over (Gore) states that glaciers are receding everywhere (i bet he doesn't say this), and sea-levels will soon rise twenty feet.

The irony is that, while he's banging on about receding glaciers, on the screen is depicted huge glacial "calving" events, wherein massive chunks of ice break from the parent ice-pack and fall quite spectacularly into the ocean.
Its not ironic at all its pretty relevant, when ice drifts off into the ocean it melts, and contributes to sea level rises

For those who aren't aware, calving is a sign of glacial growth.
Completely incorrect. Calving occurs almost regardless of what the glacier is doing and therefore on its own is a sign of nothing other than a loss of ice. The amount of calving that is occuring could be an indicator of something, i would have to watch the film to find out if gore mentions anything like this. Also it might interest you to learn that more ice is lost through calving when a glacier is retreating than advancing (http://www.wooster.edu/geology/tr/mkennedy.html)

So all in all theres nothing ironic about it, and when you consider that there have been huge breakups of ice recently that are most likely due to thinning of ice, (e.g that ice shelf in antarctica) the film isn't really misleading.

j2k4
02-24-2007, 04:55 PM
Umm i haven't fallen for anything, I haven't even seen the film and I haven't given you anything 'unwittingly'. I wasn't arguing with you about global warming, I merely wanted you to retract some incorrect statements because some people might think you know what you're talking about.

The voice-over (Gore) states that glaciers are receding everywhere (i bet he doesn't say this), and sea-levels will soon rise twenty feet.

The irony is that, while he's banging on about receding glaciers, on the screen is depicted huge glacial "calving" events, wherein massive chunks of ice break from the parent ice-pack and fall quite spectacularly into the ocean.
Its not ironic at all its pretty relevant, when ice drifts off into the ocean it melts, and contributes to sea level rises

For those who aren't aware, calving is a sign of glacial growth.
Completely incorrect. Calving occurs almost regardless of what the glacier is doing and therefore on its own is a sign of nothing other than a loss of ice. The amount of calving that is occuring could be an indicator of something, i would have to watch the film to find out if gore mentions anything like this. Also it might interest you to learn that more ice is lost through calving when a glacier is retreating than advancing (http://www.wooster.edu/geology/tr/mkennedy.html)

So all in all theres nothing ironic about it, and when you consider that there have been huge breakups of ice recently that are most likely due to thinning of ice, (e.g that ice shelf in antarctica) the film isn't really misleading.

What do you mean, "isn't really misleading"?

If your (and Gore's) contentions are so all-fired truthful and logical, why not go for, say, totally up-front-and-on-the-level-without-any-hype-whatsoever"?

You are continuing to make my point.

GepperRankins
02-24-2007, 06:30 PM
Umm i haven't fallen for anything, I haven't even seen the film and I haven't given you anything 'unwittingly'. I wasn't arguing with you about global warming, I merely wanted you to retract some incorrect statements because some people might think you know what you're talking about.

So all in all theres nothing ironic about it, and when you consider that there have been huge breakups of ice recently that are most likely due to thinning of ice, (e.g that ice shelf in antarctica) the film isn't really misleading.

What do you mean, "isn't really misleading"?

If your (and Gore's) contentions are so all-fired truthful and logical, why not go for, say, totally up-front-and-on-the-level-without-any-hype-whatsoever"?

You are continuing to make my point.
you don't have a point :dabs:

Ava Estelle
02-25-2007, 07:13 AM
If the Republican Party's stance on 'colours' was "Black is White", j2 would argue the point, and quote Fox News to back this up.

A thousand members could then post proof, including photos, videos, and expert testimony from colour scientists, showing that black was black, and white was white, but j2 would still argue, unless he saw on Fox that they were wrong all along ... he'd them blame the members here for misunderstanding what he said in the first place. :lol:

GepperRankins
02-25-2007, 09:54 AM
If the Republican Party's stance on 'colours' was "Black is White", j2 would argue the point, and quote Fox News to back this up.

A thousand members could then post proof, including photos, videos, and expert testimony from colour scientists, showing that black was black, and white was white, but j2 would still argue, unless he saw on Fox that they were wrong all along ... he'd them blame the members here for misunderstanding what he said in the first place. :lol:
i don't understand why he's ignoring me :(


i actually know exactly what his point is, or was 'til he realised it was stupid. thinking about it though, it really doesn't matter what the background visuals are. the message is that sea ice is melting, the fact is that sea ice is melting.


i presume that he's realised that his idea of using technically irrelevant imagery to drive home a point is left wing spin, is silly because the words match the facts

bigboab
02-25-2007, 10:05 AM
If the Republican Party's stance on 'colours' was "Black is White", j2 would argue the point, and quote Fox News to back this up.

A thousand members could then post proof, including photos, videos, and expert testimony from colour scientists, showing that black was black, and white was white, but j2 would still argue, unless he saw on Fox that they were wrong all along ... he'd them blame the members here for misunderstanding what he said in the first place. :lol:
i don't understand why he's ignoring me :(


i actually know exactly what his point is, or was 'til he realised it was stupid. thinking about it though, it really doesn't matter what the background visuals are. the message is that sea ice is melting, the fact is that sea ice is melting.


i presume that he's realised that his idea of using technically irrelevant imagery to drive home a point is left wing spin, is silly because the words match the facts

Nearly everyone in the drawing Room would make good politicians. They don't answer the relevant points. They argue about some little pedantic point where they think that they will 'win'. No person is correct all the time .:)

ilw
02-25-2007, 10:23 AM
Umm i haven't fallen for anything, I haven't even seen the film and I haven't given you anything 'unwittingly'. I wasn't arguing with you about global warming, I merely wanted you to retract some incorrect statements because some people might think you know what you're talking about.

So all in all theres nothing ironic about it, and when you consider that there have been huge breakups of ice recently that are most likely due to thinning of ice, (e.g that ice shelf in antarctica) the film isn't really misleading.

What do you mean, "isn't really misleading"?

If your (and Gore's) contentions are so all-fired truthful and logical, why not go for, say, totally up-front-and-on-the-level-without-any-hype-whatsoever"?

You are continuing to make my point.
As i said in my last post, i couldn't give a damn about your point, I wouldn't care if i proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Do you accept that you were wrong to claim Gore got his science ass-backwards? Yay or nay

Ava Estelle
02-25-2007, 03:05 PM
5BjrOi4vF24

j2k4
02-25-2007, 03:38 PM
Do you accept that you were wrong to claim Gore got his science ass-backwards? Yay or nay

That would be a "nay", of course.

You are fine with his misuse of the imagery in aid of his cause, then?

Yay or nay, please.

GepperRankins
02-25-2007, 04:05 PM
Do you accept that you were wrong to claim Gore got his science ass-backwards? Yay or nay

That would be a "nay", of course.

You are fine with his misuse of the imagery in aid of his cause, then?

Yay or nay, please.
it's hardly misuse of imagery, but to the situation of him narrating to videos of calving i'd say yay. it's not misleading so feck awf

Ava Estelle
02-25-2007, 04:21 PM
Haha! j2 is caught with his knickers in a twist again.

This is what j2 said ..


The irony is that, while he's banging on about receding glaciers, on the screen is depicted huge glacial "calving" events, wherein massive chunks of ice break from the parent ice-pack and fall quite spectacularly into the ocean.

For those who aren't aware, calving is a sign of glacial growth.

Now, we know that calving is NOT just a sign of glacial growth, but also, and far more often, a sign of glacial decline. We also know that glaciers all over the world, not all of them, but most, are in decline.

So, according to j2, for Gore to claim glaciers are receding, is wrong, and misleading.

So j2, please explain how this is a misuse of imagery?

j2k4
02-25-2007, 04:39 PM
Now, we know that calving is NOT just a sign of glacial growth, but also, and far more often, a sign of glacial decline. We also know that glaciers all over the world, not all of them, but most, are in decline.


Prove that, please.

Or are you claiming to be a climatologist, now.

You implied earlier that Sowell wasn't qualified to comment owing to his lack of qualification in this regard.

Now you claim that, in a preponderance of cases (enough to constitute a rule-of-thumb presumption), calving indicates glacial recession, and therefore any footage of such an event is suitable evidence of global warming and nothing else, correct?

Yes or no, please.

Ava Estelle
02-25-2007, 04:56 PM
Prove that, please.
You're very fond of placing the onus of proof onto others j2, so why don't you prove this ... "For those who aren't aware, calving is a sign of glacial growth." ... seeing as you made the claim in the first place.



Now you claim that, in a preponderance of cases (enough to constitute a rule-of-thumb presumption), calving indicates glacial recession, and therefore any footage of such an event is suitable evidence of global warming and nothing else, correct?
Making things up again j2? Show me where I said that?

This is what I said, "Now, we know that calving is NOT just a sign of glacial growth"

This is such fun, you remind me of the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar! :lol:

Ava Estelle
02-25-2007, 05:51 PM
DECLINE OF WORLD'S GLACIERS EXPECTED TO HAVE GLOBAL IMPACTS OVER THIS CENTURY

The great majority of the world's glaciers appear to be declining at rates equal to or greater than long-established trends, according to early results from a joint NASA and United States Geological Survey (USGS) project designed to provide a global assessment of glaciers. At the same time, a small minority of glaciers are advancing.

Source (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NasaNews/2002/200205299370.html)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Since the early 1960s, mountain glaciers worldwide have experienced an estimated net loss of over 4000 cubic kilometers of water – more than the annual discharge of the Orinoco, Congo, Yangtze and Mississippi Rivers combined; this loss was more than twice as fast in the 1990s than during previous decades.

WWF, Clacier Facts. (http://www.panda.org/about_wwf/what_we_do/climate_change/problems/impacts/glaciers/glacier_facts/index.cfm)

----------------------------------------------------------------

The World Glacier Monitoring Service reports on changes in the terminus, or lower-elevation end, of glaciers from around the world every five years.(WGMS) In their 1995–2000 edition, they noted the terminal point variations of glaciers across the Alps. Over the five-year period from 1995 to 2000, 103 of 110 glaciers examined in Switzerland, 95 of 99 glaciers in Austria, all 69 glaciers in Italy, and all 6 glaciers in France were in retreat.

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_glaciers_since_1850)

etc., etc., etc..

j2k4
02-25-2007, 06:18 PM
Cookie jar, indeed.

A little selective editing, huh?

"Most"= preponderance, unless you'd care to argue that, too.

Here you go, by the way.



Now, we know that calving is NOT just a sign of glacial growth, but also, and far more often, a sign of glacial decline. We also know that glaciers all over the world, not all of them, but most, are in decline.

Ava Estelle
02-25-2007, 06:35 PM
Here you go, by the way.

Here you go ... what?

Is that your proof?

You made the comment, and then claimed Gore had got it wrong, now we ask for proof and you either cannot, or will not, provide it. My money's on the former.

Why don't you be a man for once and admit you made a mistake?


When a glacier experiences calving, large pieces of the ice break off at the margin, usually during the retreating stage in the glacial life cycle. Specifically, tidewater calving glaciers are those whose margin, or terminus, ends into a body of water. When calving occurs, these broken pieces of ice fall into the water and become icebergs. Calving is the most efficient way for tidewater glaciers to experience a loss of their ice mass, as well as for the world's oceans to gain more water through the melting of icebergs.

Source. (http://www.wooster.edu/geology/tr/mkennedy.html)

j2k4
02-25-2007, 06:44 PM
DECLINE OF WORLD'S GLACIERS EXPECTED TO HAVE GLOBAL IMPACTS OVER THIS CENTURY

The great majority of the world's glaciers appear to be declining at rates equal to or greater than long-established trends, according to early results from a joint NASA and United States Geological Survey (USGS) project designed to provide a global assessment of glaciers. At the same time, a small minority of glaciers are advancing.

Source (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NasaNews/2002/200205299370.html)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Since the early 1960s, mountain glaciers worldwide have experienced an estimated net loss of over 4000 cubic kilometers of water – more than the annual discharge of the Orinoco, Congo, Yangtze and Mississippi Rivers combined; this loss was more than twice as fast in the 1990s than during previous decades.

WWF, Clacier Facts. (http://www.panda.org/about_wwf/what_we_do/climate_change/problems/impacts/glaciers/glacier_facts/index.cfm)

----------------------------------------------------------------

The World Glacier Monitoring Service reports on changes in the terminus, or lower-elevation end, of glaciers from around the world every five years.(WGMS) In their 1995–2000 edition, they noted the terminal point variations of glaciers across the Alps. Over the five-year period from 1995 to 2000, 103 of 110 glaciers examined in Switzerland, 95 of 99 glaciers in Austria, all 69 glaciers in Italy, and all 6 glaciers in France were in retreat.

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_glaciers_since_1850)

etc., etc., etc..

Here is where you discredit yourself once and for all.

This last reference you've included tells us all we need to know about you and your intent.

First of all, Wikipedia is the least credible source you could possibly quote, and anyone who uses it is certainly no more than one-tenth as credible as someone who uses, say, Fox News.

But the really hilarious part is right in the title of the article, Retreat of Glaciers since 1850.

As well you know, the idea of global warming is largely uncontested (I certainly don't have a quarrel with it); the point at issue here is whether or not 1) man is responsible, and, 2) whether man can effect a change in the current trend by altering his activities.

Isn't it odd, then, that Wikipedia doesn't trace glacial "retreat" from the time of the British Industrial Revolution (which predates the American one by a century), but of the American Industrial Revolution, which wasn't different other than it's milieu?

The problem with both would have been the burning of coal, you see.

Interesting, too, that they chose 1850 as the beginning of glacial recession, when any determinable effect man's industrial activities might have would be many decades away, and technologically almost impossible to measure until the global warming alarmists became involved?

I ask you:

Where would they have come up with "1850", absent a predetermined outcome?

j2k4
02-25-2007, 06:55 PM
Here you go, by the way.

Here you go ... what?

Is that your proof?

You made the comment, and then claimed Gore had got it wrong, now we ask for proof and you either cannot, or will not, provide it. My money's on the former.

Why don't you be a man for once and admit you made a mistake?


When a glacier experiences calving, large pieces of the ice break off at the margin, usually during the retreating stage in the glacial life cycle. Specifically, tidewater calving glaciers are those whose margin, or terminus, ends into a body of water. When calving occurs, these broken pieces of ice fall into the water and become icebergs. Calving is the most efficient way for tidewater glaciers to experience a loss of their ice mass, as well as for the world's oceans to gain more water through the melting of icebergs.

Source. (http://www.wooster.edu/geology/tr/mkennedy.html)

I've read that, and, if you had continued, you'd have bumped into this:

Several attempts have been made to quantitatively determine a "universal calving law" that can be applied to any calving tidewater glacier in the world (i.e. Brown et al., 1982, Venteris, 1999). While numerical models have been formulated for individual glaciers and regions of glaciers, this hypothetical universal law is unlikely to exist because of the different climatic and non-climatic mechanisms that control calving rates.

One question that remains to be answered is whether calving depends on glacial retreat, or vice versa (Venteris, 1999). Some researchers agree that the linear relationship between calving rate and water depth (Figure 4) leads to the assumption that calving rates drive glacial retreat (Brown et al., 1986, Meier, 1994). However, others have stated that retreat drives calving rate because of the observation that calving occurs faster when the terminus position retreats into deeper water (Van der Veen, 1996). This relationship is unclear to date, and further study is needed to fully understand this aspect of tidewater glaciers.

In any case, you said "most", and I, in referring to your post, said "preponderance".

You tried to posit that in doing so I implied you'd lied.

Now here we are quoting "Wooster" back and forth, because your pants are down and you don't want to admit you've tried a cheap deflection.

You've made a mistake, be a good boy and admit it.

Ava Estelle
02-25-2007, 07:03 PM
Why don't you answer the question instead of trying to steer this away from your cock-ups.

This has nothing to do with Global Warming, this has only to do with your original, erroneous, remarks about Al Gore and carving.

This is what you wrote, "For those who aren't aware, calving is a sign of glacial growth."

I, and others, contend that this is wrong, I have asked you to prove it, and you can't.


As to Wikipedia, it doesn't write itself, had you bothered to scroll to the bottom of the page you would have noticed the sources, each one linked.

Come on j2, this could be your finest hour! :lol:

GepperRankins
02-25-2007, 07:23 PM
far more often = usually - what billy said is what the scientists say

universal law != usually - universal is not the same as usual, but lack of universal does not mean lack of usual

is = universal law - you made an explicit statement that contradicted teh scientists




give it up j2 :dabs:

Ava Estelle
02-25-2007, 07:42 PM
give it up j2 :dabs:

He will, but not by admitting he was wrong, he'll just stop posting, it's what he's good at ... avoidance. :lol:

j2k4
02-25-2007, 07:48 PM
give it up j2 :dabs:

He will, but not by admitting he was wrong, he'll just stop posting, it's what he's good at ... avoidance. :lol:

Who dat under dat sheet?

Datchoo, Davy Duke?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ava Estelle
02-25-2007, 08:02 PM
See? I told you he wouldn't reply, he could never admit he was wrong, if he did it would become a regular occurance.

So he just ignores the point, as he did in the Jefferson Quran thread, he must think we forget these cock-ups. :lol:

j2k4
02-25-2007, 08:17 PM
See? I told you he wouldn't reply, he could never admit he was wrong, if he did it would become a regular occurance.

So he just ignores the point, as he did in the Jefferson Quran thread, he must think we forget these cock-ups. :lol:

Admit what?

You've just wiped the slate clean, as well as sidetracked the entire Drawing Room.

BTW-

Who is "we"?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

This is going to continue for a while, I'm afraid.

There really is no easy recovery from such a faux pas.

Ava Estelle
02-25-2007, 08:29 PM
No recovery? Even when you discover that piece has nothing to do with Duke? :)

Ava Estelle
02-25-2007, 08:39 PM
Oh dear, j2 seems to have lost his voice!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Biggles
02-25-2007, 08:51 PM
Edit: Oh Bolloks! wrong thread.

GepperRankins
02-25-2007, 09:06 PM
lets be forgetting the last half dozen posts :unsure:


J2 do you believe using images of calving to support a talk on receding glaciers, is misleading?

yes or no plz

Cheese
04-28-2007, 07:01 PM
This earthquake in Kent is just more evidence, as if any were needed, of climate change.

I blame G(lobal) W(armer) Bush.

kazaaman
05-01-2007, 09:33 PM
In his attempt to dismiss us, Mr. Rove turned to head toward his table, but as soon as he did so, Sheryl reached out to touch his arm. Karl swung around and spat, "Don't touch me." How hardened and removed from reality must a person be to refuse to be touched by Sheryl Crow? Unfazed, Sheryl abruptly responded, "You can't speak to us like that, you work for us." Karl then quipped, "I don't work for you, I work for the American people." To which Sheryl promptly reminded him, "We are the American people."


Source (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laurie-david-and-sheryl-crow/karl-rove-gets-thrown-und_b_46501.html)

Bush has some good people working for him...

bigboab
05-03-2007, 06:18 PM
I know this is about six months old. I have just discovered it. Margaret Becket, Environment Secretary, UK likena Global Warming Sceptics to terrorists and that they should be denied a platform to air their views.:(

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brendan_oneill/2006/11/a_climate_of_censorship.html

I can imagine this scene in the J2 and my household very soon.

What was that noise?
Go back to sleep it is just the phone tapping. :lol:

j2k4
05-03-2007, 07:33 PM
I know this is about six months old. I have just discovered it. Margaret Becket, Environment Secretary, UK likena Global Warming Sceptics to terrorists and that they should be denied a platform to air their views.:(

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brendan_oneill/2006/11/a_climate_of_censorship.html

I can imagine this scene in the J2 and my household very soon.

What was that noise?
Go back to sleep it is just the phone tapping. :lol:



It's happening everywhere, Bob.

Surely someone will be along shortly to deny, qualify, or, -ahem-, spin your story...;)

My money's on vid. :)