Cows Or Humans [Archive] - FileSharing Talk

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by smellycat@4 June 2003 - 22:56
What would you conclude about that species?

:(
I'd say it's :nuke: time...

:ph34r:

You guys should be grateful, summerlinda and I may yet save you from the :alien: men...

@PBMontgolfier: I view all sentient life as having an equal right to live. Farming animals for meat is equal to killing a lot more than 6,000,000, if you consider the global scale of it.

Here's a question: a human vegetable (pardon me for the non-PC term) is less intelligent or emotionally complete than some pigs. By your reasoning, is it not right to cut him up and serve him on a Morton's Morning Roll rather than using that bacon you were going to have?

insanebassman

06-04-2003, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by smellycat@4 June 2003 - 14:56
Imagine you were an alien, :alien: , and you were observing Earth.
What would you see?

You would see one species enslaving all other species.
Committing mass genocide.

Killing sentient beings for pleasure.

What would you conclude about that species?

:(
What alien would you be refering to? The gentle, peace loving aliens?

Or the ones with the ability to deal with the harsh realities of inter-stellar travel, the nesecities of survival and the ability to see what is required to survive in an otherwise hostile environment?

Aliens do not have to be gentle. Our serial killers may be the ones they want to adopt due to cunning. Our true hunters because of the ability to kill when it is needed. Soldiers who efficiently follow orders to kill and destroy as they can follow orders through when it is considered a nesessity by the leaders. Aliens wil not have your values.

They may see a good proving ground for the traits they desire and detest the people who want peace and soft lives.

Just another view.

PB Montgolfier

06-04-2003, 10:19 PM

Lamsey

I take it you find this amusing.

PB Montgolfier

06-04-2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by insanebassman+4 June 2003 - 22:18--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (insanebassman @ 4 June 2003 - 22:18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--smellycat@4 June 2003 - 14:56
Imagine you were an alien,  :alien: , and you were observing Earth.
What would you see?

You would see one species enslaving all other species.
Committing mass genocide.

Killing sentient beings for pleasure.

What would you conclude about that species?

:(
What alien would you be refering to? The gentle, peace loving aliens?

Or the ones with the ability to deal with the harsh realities of inter-stellar travel, the nesecities of survival and the ability to see what is required to survive in an otherwise hostile environment?

Aliens do not have to be gentle. Our serial killers may be the ones they want to adopt due to cunning. Our true hunters because of the ability to kill when it is needed. Soldiers who efficiently follow orders to kill and destroy as they can follow orders through when it is considered a nesessity by the leaders. Aliens wil not have your values.

They may see a good proving ground for the traits they desire and detest the people who want peace and soft lives.

Just another view. [/b][/quote]
What has either of these posts got to do with the subject.

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by insanebassman@4 June 2003 - 23:18
What alien would you be refering to? The gentle, peace loving aliens?

Or the ones with the ability to deal with the harsh realities of inter-stellar travel, the nesecities of survival and the ability to see what is required to survive in an otherwise hostile environment?

Aliens do not have to be gentle. Our serial killers may be the ones they want to adopt due to cunning. Our true hunters because of the ability to kill when it is needed. Soldiers who efficiently follow orders to kill and destroy as they can follow orders through when it is considered a nesessity by the leaders. Aliens wil not have your values.

They may see a good proving ground for the traits they desire and detest the people who want peace and soft lives.

Just another view.
Or perhaps they will see us as a barbaric, xenophobic race which is a danger that needs to be eliminated.

PB: I refer you to my revised post above.

PB Montgolfier

06-04-2003, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by Lamsey+4 June 2003 - 22:17--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lamsey @ 4 June 2003 - 22:17)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--smellycat@4 June 2003 - 22:56
What would you conclude about that species?

:(
I'd say it's :nuke: time...

:ph34r:

You guys should be grateful, summerlinda and I may yet save you from the :alien: men...

@PBMontgolfier: I view all sentient life as having an equal right to live.

Here's a question: a human vegetable (pardon me for the non-PC term) is less intelligent or emotionally complete than some pigs. By your reasoning, is it not right to cut him up and serve him on a Morton's Morning Roll rather than using that bacon you were going to have? [/b][/quote]
Sophistry.

Do you stand by your view that Hitlers behaviour was no worse than that of a Farmer and that the life of a cow is of equal value to that of a human being.

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 10:26 PM

As I said above, the post you quoted has been expanded upon.

Tyke

06-04-2003, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by PB Montgolfier@4 June 2003 - 22:16

I only raise the point, that in my opinion the holocaust and the horrific murder of 6,000,000 Jews and the appaling abuse of countless others, is not analagous to Farming.

In lamsey's defence, if you apply it to INTENSIVE farming practices, some parallels can be drawn (sort of).

My problems with the meat and dairy industries come from the INDUSTRY practices firstly, although I would never go back to eating meat in normal circumstances (before someone rolls out the completely irrelevant "If you were dying of hunger on a desert island and you captured a rabbit....")

That said, I don't like comparisons to Nazi politics as such, I try to avoid them. For the simple reason that fascism is an issue that is not to be taken lightly, and bandying the term about willy-nilly lessens the impact of a very serious issue.

summerlinda

06-04-2003, 10:27 PM

What has either of these posts got to do with the subject.
This the lounge we can OffTopic as much as we want :P
But seriously, i think Lamsey meant as a figure of speach, a way to speak..... Maybe it was wrong, i would not have made that remark myself....
But i dont think Lamsey sees a Hitler in every farmer he meets, maybe he got carried away a little....
Lamsey, speak up man, say sorry or defend your remark.

Btw PB, you owe me something!

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 10:29 PM

That said, I don't like comparisons to Nazi politics as such, I try to avoid them. For the simple reason that fascism is an issue that is not to be taken lightly, and bandying the term about willy-nilly lessens the impact of a very serious issue.
I apologise - I'm only 17 so I'm yet to be desensitised to the horrors of the Holocaust.

To clarify for PB:
I do not view a cow's life as more important than a human's. There is a lot more that a human can do in this world, and a human carries more responsibilities.

However, I view the human and the cow (as well as all other sentient life) as having an equal right to live. That is not the same thing.

To clarify for summerlinda:
I do not say that every farmer is like Hitler. But there is something Hitleresque in what they do.

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 10:33 PM

Another thought which has just occured to me:

The treatment of hens in batteries is actually much worse than, or at the very least as bad as, many of the tortures that the likes of Hitler, Paul Pott, etc. have inflicted on humans.

Tyke

06-04-2003, 10:33 PM

so if you could only save one, would you save a mouse or a cow? :lol: j/k

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 10:34 PM

Not the kind of situation I would ever want to find myself in. :(

The hypothetical situation of having to choose between two lives is quite possibly one of the most frightening things i can visualise. Particularly if it was two humans.

DarthInsinuate

06-04-2003, 10:38 PM

well i'm gonna defend the farmers in this one because i like my steak and chips

Hitler and co. wanted to wipe the word 'Jew' off the face of the planet, farmers carefully kill enough chickens that is needed to feed everyone and make a living

another thought is that the alternative to KFC is soylent green

summerlinda

06-04-2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Tyke@4 June 2003 - 23:33
so if you could only save one, would you save a mouse or a cow? :lol: j/k
If i was back to basic: Cow because of the milk
If i had a huge huge garden: Cow because it could cut my gras
If i was in a flat: Mouse because i have a nice pet that way
If i was bored: Mouse, because i could teach it some tricks
:P

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 10:39 PM

Hitler and co. wanted to wipe the word 'Jew' off the face of the planet, farmers carefully kill enough chickens that is needed to feed everyone and make a living
Yeah... the chicken thing is carefully calculated so that they can go on killing the chickens forever, over and over again?

What if Hitler had farmed Jews?

If i was back to basic: Cow because of the milk
If i had a huge huge garden: Cow because it could cut my gras
If i was in a flat: Mouse because i have a nice pet that way
If i was bored: Mouse, because i could teach it some tricks

:huh: Bloody hell, that's some practicality. I'd never have gotten beyond the ethical argument in my head. Your pragmatic approach is to be admired!

Tyke

06-04-2003, 10:40 PM

Sorry, I just realised you wouldn't get the cow thing, seeing as the cow lives on a different forum :">

Anyway, back on topic, the battery hens are a good example of what I meant about intensive farming. I would urge people, whether meat-eaters or not to spend the small extra cash on free-range chicken or eggs. Although personally, I'd rather not eat either

WeeMouse

06-04-2003, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by summerlinda+4 June 2003 - 23:38--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (summerlinda @ 4 June 2003 - 23:38)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Tyke@4 June 2003 - 23:33
so if you could only save one, would you save a mouse or a cow?  :lol:  j/k
If i was back to basic: Cow because of the milk
If i had a huge huge garden: Cow because it could cut my gras
If i was in a flat: Mouse because i have a nice pet that way
If i was bored: Mouse, because i could teach it some tricks
:P [/b][/quote]
Yay! I'm saved! :)

I would try to save the mouse and the cow, but i don't think i could carry the cow....

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 10:42 PM

Sorry, I just realised you wouldn't get the cow thing, seeing as the cow lives on a different forum
It's OK, it's relevant anyway as my girlfriend's nickname here is WeeMouse...

:lol:

edit: there she is, posting before me again... :rolleyes:

Tyke

06-04-2003, 10:45 PM

I'd kind of guessed that a long time ago :lol:

summerlinda

06-04-2003, 10:46 PM

See..... I say he owes me something and all of a sudden he vanished :lol:

PB Montgolfier

06-04-2003, 10:53 PM

My view is very simplistic and obvious.

To liken Farmers to Hitler is an insult to Farmers and Jews.

To liken farming of chickens to the systematic attempt at genocide of an entire section of humanity is an obscenity.

To liken intensive farming to concentration camps is frankly beyond my comprehension.

If this is the thinking of modern youth I happily remove myself from it.

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by PB Montgolfier+4 June 2003 - 23:53--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PB Montgolfier @ 4 June 2003 - 23:53)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> My view is very simplistic and obvious.

To liken Farmers to Hitler is an insult to Farmers and Jews.

To liken farming of chickens to the systematic attempt at genocide of an entire section of humanity is an obscenity.

To liken intensive farming to concentration camps is frankly beyond my comprehension.

If this is the thinking of modern youth I happily remove myself from it. [/b]
I do not lower the horrific stature of the Holocaust by making these comparisons. I merely think that the controlled, calculated killing of life is an atrocity, no matter what form that life takes.

@PB: I again refer you to the following.
<!--QuoteBegin--Myself
I do not view a cow's life as more important than a human's. There is a lot more that a human can do in this world, and a human carries more responsibilities.

However, I view the human and the cow (as well as all other sentient life) as having an equal right to live. That is not the same thing.[/quote]

namzuf9

06-04-2003, 10:58 PM

My view on this one is quite simple. A farmer kills livestock which is then sold on to feed some of the millions of carnivorous humans on this planet.
Hitler killed followers of Judaism because he thought they did not deserve to live.
Any animal deserves to live but by nature man or beast will kill for survival (to eat). In the "civilised" world the hunting/killing is done by a few people on a large scale.
This could be likened to a Lioness hunting for its pride. It hunts down and kills more than it needs to feed the rest of it's "family".
Who are we to argue with nature?

I will say that I dont agree with the less humane farming of livestock such as battery hens and the like.

DarthInsinuate

06-04-2003, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by Tyke@4 June 2003 - 23:40
Anyway, back on topic, the battery hens are a good example of what I meant about intensive farming. I would urge people, whether meat-eaters or not to spend the small extra cash on free-range chicken or eggs
actually i eat free-range, the eggs have soooo much more flavour and a richer colour, makes you understand the term 'sunny side up' :lol:

the meat is also alittle more tender :)

but i do see the problems caused by farming, i'm gonna blame the cows for not being able to run fast enough

anyways, as long as you don't have a problem with the intensive farming of potatoes, i'll enjoy my chips <_<

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 11:01 PM

It is now not necessary for humans to kill.

I am a vegetarian and soundly healthy in body and mind (although the latter may be up for debate).

Thus there is no ethical justification for the continued harvesting of meat.

Humans are omnivores, not carnivores - they don't need to eat meat.

If you eat meat, you are saying that the animal's right to live is less important than your desire to eat their flesh --> they don't desrve to live as your gastronomic tastes are more important. Just as Hitler's religious views were more important.

as long as you don't have a problem with the intensive farming of potatoes, i'll enjoy my chips
Munch away!

vivitron 15

06-04-2003, 11:02 PM

ok, i feel as though i want to chip in here.

i agree with yourself, PB, that to make some of the comparisons is indeed most bizarre...i think that everyone agrees the "importance" of any specific creature is unmeasurable, hence uncomparable.

i do, however agree with lamsey and linda. There is definitely some distinction to be made that, the way in which animals are farmed is horrendous. I could give some websites which detail some of the horrors of modern factory farming. and the numbers of animals killed for human consumption each day is mind boggling [many more than the number of Jews who were killed, incidently]

EDIT to add: @nam, yes, to a certain extent, the reasons for which the animals [cows/humans] arre killed are different, but if you consider that we, as a race, do not [b]need to kill animals, is the difference so noticable?

Tyke

06-04-2003, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by PB Montgolfier+4 June 2003 - 22:53--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PB Montgolfier @ 4 June 2003 - 22:53)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If this is the thinking of modern youth I happily remove myself from it. [/b]
PB, thats a view you are entitled to. I'm a little past being called a "youth" now, but I do sometimes think "thank god we have moved on from the old ways of thinking" over certain issues (not necessarily all animal/vegetarian related)

<!--QuoteBegin--PB Montgolfier
To liken intensive farming to concentration camps is frankly beyond my comprehension.[/quote]

I think it's something to do with the battery farming of chickens for instance. They are certainly crammed in (concentrated>concentration) so I can see the likeness.

Like I said before, it's not a 100% identical scenario, but certainly it consists of a vast number of living beings crammed into inhumane conditions until their death

insanebassman

06-04-2003, 11:07 PM

Actually, Lamsey, Humans do need meat. It is a biological requirement. My best freind is Vegan. I mean truly, hard core, vegan. He has to buy expensive and sometimes experimental, products to provide what his chosen neglect of animal foods deprives him of. The suppliments have warnings that say "not intended for permenent dietary replacement". Thus he has to switch and be careful, lest he become less healthy.

Thus, it is a need of omnivores. Otherwise, experiments to replace the nutrients provided only in meat would not be needed.

Omni - meaning all

we eat meat and veggies, not just one. We require a balance. This is not just opinion, but fact.

I can site studies, but I must look them up again, as my life style does not require I study prior to eating. Therefore, I do not have them handy.

vivitron 15

06-04-2003, 11:08 PM

i dont eat meat, and im alive

it is, however necesary to add eggs/milk etc to replace nutrients lost by lack of meat, but this isn't killing as previously compared with

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 11:09 PM

(PB Montgolfier)
To liken intensive farming to concentration camps is frankly beyond my comprehension.
I think it's something to do with the battery farming of chickens for instance. They are certainly crammed in (concentrated>concentration) so I can see the likeness.

Like I said before, it's not a 100% identical scenario, but certainly it consists of a vast number of living beings crammed into inhumane conditions until their death
Much worse, in fact.

Yes, the Jews were killed horrifically in concentration camps and I do not want to diminish the ghastly nature of this.

But in addition to death, the chickens must also face years of torment and exploitation. This is worse!

namzuf9

06-04-2003, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by Lamsey@4 June 2003 - 23:01
Humans are omnivores, not carnivores - they don't need to eat meat.
Sorry, I do stand corrected on this point.

Do you think is possible for a lion to survive soley on vegataion?

Why is it wrong to kill an animal for food? I could understand the sport side of it being an iffy subject but killing to eat?

I'm not trying to belittle anyones views or morals here I would just like to know.

I'll pick up on this thread tomorrow cos its late here in the UK and I need my bed. :sleeping:

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by insanebassman@5 June 2003 - 00:07
Actually, Lamsey, Humans do need meat. It is a biological requirement. My best freind is Vegan. I mean truly, hard core, vegan. He has to buy expensive and sometimes experimental, products to provide what his chosen neglect of animal foods deprives him of. The suppliments have warnings that say "not intended for permenent dietary replacement". Thus he has to switch and be careful, lest he become less healthy.

Thus, it is a need of omnivores. Otherwise, experiments to replace the nutrients provided only in meat would not be needed.

Omni - meaning all

we eat meat and veggies, not just one. We require a balance. This is not just opinion, but fact.

I can site studies, but I must look them up again, as my life style does not  require I study prior to eating. Therefore, I do not have them handy.
I repeat:

I am a vegetarian and I am entirely healthy in body and mind.
I have never eaten meat in my life.

What exactly is your point?

@namzuf:

Why is it wrong to kill an animal for food? I could understand the sport side of it being an iffy subject but killing to eat?

I'm not trying to belittle anyones views or morals here I would just like to know.
It is wrong to kill.
It is justifiable if you have to in order to survive.
It is not justifiable if you just want a bacon roll.

Tyke

06-04-2003, 11:11 PM

I've heard this many times and it confuses me.

I don't take any supplements as a vegan and it's never done me any harm over the past 10 years.

OK, so not a scientific study, I may need to look into this further when I get older :lol:

But anyway, at least we were blessed with opposing thumbs and the intelligence to create substitutes if wee need/want to. After all, we weren't designed for flight either, but we got around that little problem quite well!

DarthInsinuate

06-04-2003, 11:12 PM

i'll fail horribly as a vegan

with my salad i have mayonaisse
with broccoli i have oyster sauce

:unsure: err...actually thats all the vegetable i eat

oh i eat peas with my chips

PB Montgolfier

06-04-2003, 11:12 PM

I remain stunned that you all think that the quantative arguement takes precedence.

I find the replies to this post nothing short of horrific.

You are defending the position that Hitler's holocaust was no worse than farming. Do you realise the ramifications of this position.

He murdered 6 million people after subjecting them to brutallity. There were countless "survivors" who were also brutalised. There was also an inumerable number of people who have been affected by this.

Your logic is that more cows have been slaughtered and that is worse.

Like I said earlier, if this is the position that modern youth takes I am stunned.

insanebassman

06-04-2003, 11:12 PM

/me waiting for lamsey to compare chickens to the slavery of africans in the 1700-1800's

a connection I will also refuse to acknowledge despite all aruments...

Pitbul

06-04-2003, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by smellycat@4 June 2003 - 14:56
Imagine you were an alien, :alien: , and you were observing Earth.
What would you see?

You would see one species enslaving all other species.
Committing mass genocide.

Killing sentient beings for pleasure.

What would you conclude about that species?

:(
Any Intelligent Alien Species would notice and come to the conslusion that on earth we do what we need to survive, and that on earth the strongest and most intelligent Species survives by doing what they need to. Aliens are supposedly way more intelligent then us and would easily recognize why we do this.as for comparing Jews to Cows and Hitler to Farmers is absurd. Hitler did what he did becuz he liked power and was evil and becuz he enjoyed torturing ppl also becuz he was prejiduce. Farmers do what they do becuz they are feeding humans and keeping ppl alive. not everyone relizes the benefits of an all Vegitable diet. nore will n e one convince them to. i for one do eat meat. sure killing an animal out of cold blood and just becuz u feel like it is shrewd and in humane but when u kill an animal to keep other animals alive then it is agreeable. what if one of ur family memebers was sick or starving to death and the only way to save her or him would be to sacrifice another animals life. would u not kill the animal?

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 11:15 PM

Tyke

06-04-2003, 11:18 PM

read back a few posts and you'll see I predicted a "what if you were in a highly unlikely scenario" argument coming out! :lol:

Anyway, I'm not going to tell people what they should and shouldn't eat, and I'd expect others to show the same courtesy and not tell me that I must eat meat.

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by Pitbul@5 June 2003 - 00:13
what if one of ur family memebers was sick or starving to death and the only way to save her or him would be to sacrifice another animals life. would u not kill the animal?
I'm not covering the rest of that post as I have already explained the flaws in that reasoning.

No. I wouldn't. Because the animal has just as much of a right to live as the human does. It is an abuse of our superiority to behave differently. If a cow was dying and the only way to save it was to kill a human, would you?

And before anyone says anything, I would accept it even if it was me who was dying. In fact I would oppose any plan to kill another that I may live.

Anyway, I'm not going to tell people what they should and shouldn't eat, and I'd expect others to show the same courtesy and not tell me that I must eat meat.
This is a point. I would like to make it clear that all of the opinions I express are my own and I do not expect you to follow them just because I say so.
I do, however, think it important for all of us to consider our own opinions carefully - it is too easy to make a snap judgement based on social conditioning.

summerlinda

06-04-2003, 11:19 PM

Do you think is possible for a lion to survive soley on vegataion?

Lion is CARNIVORE needs meat [can ocasionally eat plants too]
Human is OMNIVORE does not need meat [can live with and without it]
Rabbit is HERBIVORE does need plants [can ocasionaly eat insects too]

Humans do NOT need meat, as long as you get all your nutrients [from vegetables, vega stuff, bread, pasta, grains etc etc] Only thing you have to be carefull with if you dont eat grains and green vegatables is iron. Man, i dont eat meat since i was 5 and look at me [i know you cant :P ] i healthy as hell. In fact, humans eat TO much meat, its bad for heart and vasculaire diseases.

PB Montgolfier

06-04-2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by Lamsey@4 June 2003 - 23:09

(PB Montgolfier)
To liken intensive farming to concentration camps is frankly beyond my comprehension.
I think it's something to do with the battery farming of chickens for instance. They are certainly crammed in (concentrated>concentration) so I can see the likeness.

Like I said before, it's not a 100% identical scenario, but certainly it consists of a vast number of living beings crammed into inhumane conditions until their death
Much worse, in fact.

Yes, the Jews were killed horrifically in concentration camps and I do not want to diminish the ghastly nature of this.

But in addition to death, the chickens must also face years of torment and exploitation. This is worse!
I go beyond stunned.

You now say that intensive farming of chickens is worse than the holocaust.

These were human being who were subjected to vivisection, conscious, to allow scientific experimentation.

They were starved, they were used as slave labour, they watched their wives or husbands and children raped and tortured and after years they died a horrific death.

Tyke

06-04-2003, 11:21 PM

Humans do NOT need meat, as long as you get all your nutrients

That means if you're veggie and don't like Marmite you're stuffed for your B12 :lol:

nahan

06-04-2003, 11:23 PM

Aniamls were put on this earth for one reason ,to provide for humans.
Not so we could provide for them.
Thats why they werent created with the intellect of ours,they were created for a purpose.

summerlinda

06-04-2003, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Tyke@5 June 2003 - 00:21

Humans do NOT need meat, as long as you get all your nutrients

That means if you're veggie and don't like Marmite you're stuffed for your B12 :lol:
I dont eat Marmite

summerlinda

06-04-2003, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by nahan@5 June 2003 - 00:23
Aniamls were put on this earth for one reason ,to provide for humans.
Not so we could provide for them.
Thats why they werent created with the intellect of ours,they were created for a purpose.
In fact, humas are animals [mammals], so whats your point?

nahan

06-04-2003, 11:26 PM

Read it again

Tyke

06-04-2003, 11:26 PM

I hate to ask but who decided this?

PB Montgolfier

06-04-2003, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by nahan@4 June 2003 - 23:23
Aniamls were put on this earth for one reason ,to provide for humans.
Not so we could provide for them.
Thats why they werent created with the intellect of ours,they were created for a purpose.
At least this bit is simple.

You are an idiot.

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 11:28 PM

@PB:

You are still clinging to the view that it doesn't count when it happens to chickens because they're not human.

You must consider this; I abhor all cruelty, no matter who it is inflicted upon. Consider a Jew Battery Farm - that would be as horrific to you as a Chicken Battery Farm is to me.

I do not diminish the horrors of the Holocaust. You are diminishing the horrors of battery life.

It is not uncommon for a chicken to spend all of its natural life in a wire box barely big enough to fit into. It may never open its wings or move its feet more than an inch. It is force-fed fed growth hormones and all sorts of chemicals. Its eggs are harvested and then it is taken to a chicken slaughtering machine, which I will not describe in case anyone squeamish reads it (it makes me :x ).

Now imagine that happening to a human.
My view is that it shouldn't happen to a chicken either.

@ Tyke:

That means if you're veggie and don't like Marmite you're stuffed for your B12
Not really, you can slip Marmite into soup and you don't notice it. But you still get the goodness.

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 11:29 PM

Nahan is a Troll and should thus be ignored, people.

He just wants a reaction - don't give it to the little boy.

PB Montgolfier

06-04-2003, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by Lamsey@4 June 2003 - 23:28
You are still clinging to the view that it doesn't count when it happens to chickens because they're not human.

You must consider this; I abhor all cruelty, no matter who it is inflicted upon. Consider a Jew Battery Farm - that would be as horrific to you as a Chicken Battery Farm is to me.

I do not diminish the horrors of the Holocaust. You are diminishing the horrors of battery life.

It is not uncommon for a chicken to spend all of its natural life in a wire box barely big enough to fit into. It may never open its wings or move its feet more than an inch. It is force-fed fed growth hormones and all sorts of chemicals. Its eggs are harvested and then it is taken to a chicken slaughtering machine, which I will not describe in case anyone squeamish reads it (it makes me :x ).

Now imagine that happening to a human.
My view is that it shouldn't happen to a chicken either.

@ Tyke:

That means if you're veggie and don't like Marmite you're stuffed for your B12
Not really, you can slip Marmite into soup and you don't notice it. But you still get the goodness.
Lamsey

If you truly don't see the difference and I genuinely believe that you dont, otherwise you wouldn't be saying these things, then we have no common ground to discuss this matter.

Everyone Else

Chickens are not wee people with no arms, but with feathers. It doesn't work that way. It's got to do with the size of a brain, in proportion to the degree of difficulty in keeping that body alive. The conscious reasoning part is the brain capacity left over after the keeping alive thing is done.

A cow does not grieve the loss of a child the same way that a human does. They don't have the same memory, or feelings. The most important thing is to stay alive to propogate the species. Not in a specific way.

A chicken does not suffer in the same way that a child who is operated on, for no reason other than research, does. It simply isn't true.

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 11:48 PM

I think it is safe to say that we can agree to disagree here, with mutual respect for each other's opinions.

Agreed?

TheDave

06-04-2003, 11:53 PM

its 1am so i cant be arsed to read it all. it seems you just made this topic to bash vegetariens (especially lamsey) i think this is stupid and mean and youll end up embarrassing yo self. imo

if animals didnt want to be eaten they wouldnt taste so nice. imo i might explain what i mean one day but for some reason i just wrote bed, im taking it as a sign

PB Montgolfier

06-04-2003, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Lamsey@4 June 2003 - 23:48
I think it is safe to say that we can agree to disagree here, with mutual respect for each other's opinions.

Agreed?
No, not untill hell freezes over.

I have my beliefs and you have yours. I will respect your right to have them and indeed defend that right, to the death.

However I truly hope you accept my right to find them totally abhorent.

Lamsey

06-04-2003, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by TheDave@5 June 2003 - 00:53
its 1am so i cant be arsed to read it all. it seems you just made this topic to bash vegetariens (especially lamsey) i think this is stupid and mean and youll end up embarrassing yo self. imo

if animals didnt want to be eaten they wouldnt taste so nice. imo  i might explain what i mean one day but for some reason i just wrote bed, im taking it as a sign
It's not a flame-topic, it's a sensible discussion/exchange of views. I take no offence from anything that PB has written, and I hope he feels the same about my posts.

(edit: seems he's not so reasonable-minded after all. Either that or I touched a personal nerve, in which case I genuinely apologise.)

I'm going to ignore the second statement and put it down to tiredness ;)

PB Montgolfier

06-04-2003, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by TheDave@4 June 2003 - 23:53
its 1am so i cant be arsed to read it all. it seems you just made this topic to bash vegetariens (especially lamsey) i think this is stupid and mean and youll end up embarrassing yo self. imo

if animals didnt want to be eaten they wouldnt taste so nice. imo i might explain what i mean one day but for some reason i just wrote bed, im taking it as a sign
Oh look, a cretin, don't see a lot of those about here.

Lamsey

06-05-2003, 12:09 AM

:flame:

TheDave

06-05-2003, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by PB Montgolfier+4 June 2003 - 23:58--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PB Montgolfier @ 4 June 2003 - 23:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheDave@4 June 2003 - 23:53
its 1am so i cant be arsed to read it all. it seems you just made this topic to bash vegetariens (especially lamsey) i think this is stupid and mean and youll end up embarrassing yo self. imo

if animals didnt want to be eaten they wouldnt taste so nice. imo  i might explain what i mean one day but for some reason i just wrote bed, im taking it as a sign
Oh look, a cretin, don't see a lot of those about here. [/b][/quote]
why do you hurt me :(
http://www.ncable.net.au/~healyb/IMG_2853.jpg
everytime you do this puppy cries

Lamsey

06-05-2003, 12:25 AM

I think I've put him in a bad mood :(

nahan

06-05-2003, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by nahan@5 June 2003 - 00:23
Aniamls were put on this earth for one reason ,to provide for HUMANS.
Not so we could provide for them.
Thats why they werent created with the intellect of ours.
They were created for a purpose.
Lamsey and select others
It makes you very ignorent and single minded ,to not take this all into account.
To compare a human life to that of a chicken or cow is preposterous.

And poor poor lamsey, to resort to name calling wont win you any arguments.Calling me a "troll "
It isnt needed for an adult conversation.

But thats right you arent an adult yet,so everyone excuse lamsey he has
still got many things in life to learn .

Lamsey

06-05-2003, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by nahan+5 June 2003 - 01:33--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nahan @ 5 June 2003 - 01:33)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--nahan@5 June 2003 - 00:23
Aniamls were put on this earth for one reason ,to provide for HUMANS.
Not so we could provide for them.
Thats why they werent created with the intellect of ours.
They were created for a purpose.
Lamsey and select others
It makes you very ignorent and single minded ,to not take this all into account.
To compare a human life to that of a chicken or cow is preposterous.

And poor poor lamsey, to resort to name calling wont win you any arguments.Calling me a "troll "
It isnt needed for an adult conversation.

But thats right you arent an adult yet,so everyone excuse lamsey he has
still got many things in life to learn . [/b][/quote]
Again you display a poor grip of civilised discussion.

It makes you very ignorent and single minded ,to not take this all into account.
To compare a human life to that of a chicken or cow is preposterous.
Covered before - read my posts again and come back when you understand.

And poor poor lamsey, to resort to name calling wont win you any arguments.Calling me a "troll "
It isnt needed for an adult conversation.
I am not insulting you. I am describing you with the common term in BB circles for the kind of member that you are. "Poor, poor Lamsey" is name-calling.

But thats right you arent an adult yet,so everyone excuse lamsey he has
still got many things in life to learn .
This is true - but you clearly have more and that is a saddening thought.

PB Montgolfier

06-05-2003, 12:53 AM

This is not debate, it is intellectual bullying.

It does you no credit.

Lamsey

06-05-2003, 12:55 AM

Oh give it a rest. What I'm doing is better than flaming.

If you still have a problem with me, PM me or contact the mods.
No flaming!

nahan

06-05-2003, 01:18 AM

Yeah everyone understands what you wrote.
But if you cant come to terms and comprehend the true value of human life.
Then you have much to learn.

As for animal life I understand the true value,they keep me alive.
And provide me w/ delicious meals.Others companionship.

Its the food chain .

hobbes

06-05-2003, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by Lamsey@5 June 2003 - 01:55
Oh give it a rest. What I'm doing is better than flaming.

If you still have a problem with me, PM me or contact the mods.
No flaming!

Humans eating animals is neither right nor wrong, it is nature.

Do you fight your sexual urges because your efforts at procreation no longer are required to maintain the human race (your argument as to why we should no longer eat meat). No, you don't fight it, you put on a condom and have your cake and eat it too.

We do not chose to find steak delicious, our bodies are programmed to desire steak.

You must understand that there are no "good" smells or "bad" ones. Each individual organism has its own take. We find meat to smell good, herbivores are repulsed. We don't like feces (The usuable nutrients have been leeched- thus it smells "bad"), but dung beetles roll it up and call it home.

Cows are no more sentient than corn, trust me, my grandmother had 200 head. All they do is eat grass and crap on themselves. They have no concept of self, no dreams, no aspirations. When the young are sold off, they never call or write. Most cows are raised threat free, fed regularly as they are rotated from field to field and die before they know they are threatened. In the wild, they die from disease and predation with a greatly reduced life expectancy, which way do you think is more humane?

Plants respond to light and local nutrient gradients, they just communicate in a language you can't understand. Why don't you consider the burning of sugercane a holocaust, because you can't hear them scream. Death, none the less, burned to a crisp. Every 5 years, all crops are killed and the fields replanted. Genocide, why not. Why is plant life less important than yours?

The point is, that there is a natural order of things. Cows eat grass, we eat cows. What if we just stopped eating them? They would reproduce unchecked, denude the earth of grass and then starve in massive numbers.

As for animal mistreatment, I don't think that bears any relevance on my desire to eat meat. We all should oppose abuse, I don't mind a little toughness in my steak.

Overall, I have no problem with vegetarians, do as you please. But when you get on this moral high ground, I take umbrage. I hope you don't have wooden floors as trees were massacred for this luxury. I take for granted you don't wear a belt or shoes. Chewing gum contains gelatin which comes from animals, that's a no-no. Don't get me started on toothpaste (binding ingredients).

Lamsey, you remind me of many young adults. Someone enters your life and starts filling your head with all of these ideals. It is an exciting time and you are primed for intellectual abstract growth, but to my more seasoned mind, your thoughts are well intentioned, but stupefyingly naive.

Human life and animal life are not equal, but neither should be taken for granted nor abused.

clocker

06-05-2003, 03:01 AM

A lifelong family friend of mine owned a ranch outside Conifer, Colorado. Twenty years ago or so, she and her husband, longtime animal lovers, became interested in llamas and began a herd. Ultimately they owned 60 some animals, many of whom were champions at the Stock Show.
She doted on these animals and treated them like pets.
Each and every one of them had names, she (thought she) knew their personalities, and would not break up a mother-child pair- if you wanted to buy the mother you had to buy the offspring, too.
It had to be Llama Paradise.

A younger friend of hers became interested in weaving ( specifically using llama wool) and convinced the local/national llama association to bring some Peruvian women in to show them how it was done.
When the Peruvians arrived- they were to stay on my friend's ranch, she had a party to welcome them. I was invited.
As the party heated up ( and after a quantity of alcohol was imbibed ), my friend asked one of the women-" What is your llama's name?"
Blank stare. Finally "Uh, Llama, I guess."
"What do you do when they start to get old?"
Blank stare.
"Uh, well they die. Then we eat them".
My friend about had a stroke.

The point i'm trying to make is that a lot of our feelings and perceptions re:animals are culturally/environmentally conditioned.
To my friend, llamas were adorable, treasured pets.
To the Peruvian woman they were useful tools that, as a bonus, became food.
You, Lamsey, can be sentimental about animals- anthropomorphise their feelings and rights- in great part because you can afford to. You have options ( and by all means, excercise them at will).
Those who live in more extreme circumstances than you do not have the luxury.
I doubt that Hobbes' grandmother named her cows.
The Peruvian would probably not be able to comprehend the argument that animals have feeling and rights.
And should she accept the premise, she would almost certainly dismiss it as irrelevant.
It ultimately comes down to "me or them" for many people on this planet.

You are truly fortunate not be among that group.
And please don't confuse your good fortune with moral superiority. The phrase "A man's gotta do what a mans gotta do" is not just a movie quote, but a survival credo for over half of this planet's population.

vivitron 15

06-05-2003, 09:04 AM

Do you fight your sexual urges because your efforts at procreation no longer are required to maintain the human race (your argument as to why we should no longer eat meat). No, you don't fight it, you put on a condom and have your cake and eat it too. I feel this to be a naive analogy; sex using a condom can, in no way be compared to the slaughter of animals. I don't understand how you can draw a parallel here.

Most cows are raised threat free, fed regularly as they are rotated from field to field and die before they know they are threatened. if this were only the case. It is the fact, that most animals killed for food in todays society are kept in the most cramped conditions. The vast majority never turn around in their lives; as the pens in which they are kept are too small. They never lie down.

What if we just stopped eating them? They would reproduce unchecked Im sure you don't actually believe that man goes out each day in order to hunt wild cows, who roam the countryside. If we didn't eat cows, then the farmers would not breed them, hence there would be fewer cows being born, hence stable equilibrium.

But this is all off topic

My new friend Lamsey likens Farmers to Hitler. I say this is a bit h4r5h (on the Farmers obviously).

I say that the Holocaust and the attempted genocide of an entire group of people, with the death of 6,000,000 Jews and the dreadfull suffering of countless others, is worse than killing cows (no matter how many).

My new chum is of the opinion that the life of a cow is as important as that of a human. To be fair I should mention that he is a vegetarian, so his view is not entirely unexpected.

To comment on the original ideas (this thread wasn't intended as to discuss the merits of vegetarianism) I would have to agree that it is impossible to compare hitler and farmers, though I do agree that the scale of the atrocities carried out each day is unbelievable. I urge you all to google for information about "animal rights" ~ I appreciate that many of the organisations are biased, so some of the information should be taken with a pinch of salt, but please look at the intensive farming methods that are used. I find it mind-boggling that anyone can seriously say that the ways in which these creatures are killed is not awful. I also find it incredible that fully grown members of today's society are able, without remorse to say that they are OK with being a part of this culture of "my life is more important than that of another animal" This is, without doubt the trappings of an evil society.

summerlinda

06-05-2003, 09:47 AM

Lamsey is not alone:

http://www.masskilling.com/

http://www.masskilling.com/analogy.html

As for myself, i can relate to both sides.....

Dont shout at me for the contents of that site, i didnt wrote it, i just wanted to show it.

hobbes

06-05-2003, 01:44 PM

Removed noncontructive material

This thread is confusing me, is it about dietary preference or animal abuse?

I have already offered my unconditional support to people who oppose animal abuse.

I also think it is incorrect to label those who eat meat as "unethical" as Lamseys states. (He actually says that there is no longer any ethical reason to eat animals).

My point is this: plants are living sentient creatures too, just as deserving of life as animals. We tend to forget this as plants don't scream.

We eat animals, not out of malice, but to fill a niche in the food chain.

clocker

06-05-2003, 02:02 PM

Being able to debate "ethical eating" at all is a luxury that an "ethical" person must find ironic.

The Knife Thrower

06-05-2003, 02:58 PM

Most people don't give a shit about the animals killed in order to make their burger. And most lions don't give a shit about the animals they eat apart from the fact that they taste good. We descended from herbivores. Some of these herbivores decided to eat meat. So now they are the dominant species.

There is nothing wrong with killing animals for food.
There is nothing wrong with using animals for medical research.
There is something wrong with unnecessary being cruel to animals by cramping them in small cages.
There is something wrong with using animals for cosmetic research.

namzuf9

06-05-2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by hobbes@5 June 2003 - 13:44
This thread is confusing me, is it about dietary preference or animal abuse?

The discussion has kinda spread to both.

Whats playing on my mind is the definition of animal abuse. I like to hunt for rabbits and pheashant with my uncle. Any kills made are done in the most humane way possible. 99% of the time we kill game instantly with one shot. Anything killed is eaten by ourselves or given to others.

Am I an animal abuser?

crazy_billy_bats

06-05-2003, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by namzuf9@5 June 2003 - 18:10

Am I an animal abuser?
no. You are an animal killer.
Keep doing (*EDIT* - ill rephrase that - if you and everyone else who hunts keep doing) it there wont be any left to kill.

namzuf9

06-05-2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by crazy_billy_bats+5 June 2003 - 18:14--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (crazy_billy_bats @ 5 June 2003 - 18:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--namzuf9@5 June 2003 - 18:10

Am I an animal abuser?
no. You are an animal killer.
Keep doing (*EDIT* - ill rephrase that - if you and everyone else who hunts keep doing) it there wont be any left to kill. [/b][/quote]
I take it you've never been to the real english countryside?
If these game animals were in danger of extinction then there are many organizations set up to put a stop to the hunting of them.
The last thing that we as hunters want to do is kill evrything in sight and leave nothing for the next day, or month, or year.
Thats why there are only set times of the year in which you can hunt certain game.

crazy_billy_bats

06-05-2003, 06:31 PM

i see
i just know that if reincarnation is true i dont want to come back as a fox.

that would scare the shit out of me all them dogs running after me.

suppose a feasant wouldnt be the best either, probably just get shot....
oh well maybe ill come back as a future world leader....
who knows?
hunting has been in my family, connected to farming, so i can agree to it to a certain extent, i just dont like killing things tho !!

namzuf9

06-05-2003, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by crazy_billy_bats@5 June 2003 - 18:31
i see
i just know that if reincarnation is true i dont want to come back as a fox.

that would scare the shit out of me all them dogs running after me.

Now that is animal abuse. I agree that they are vermin and that there numbers in the wild need to be controlled but I dont agree with the brutal methods used to achieve it.

crazy_billy_bats

06-05-2003, 06:48 PM

yeah thats true, the treatment of them is terrible....
but i know what pests a fox can be, they can cost farmers a lot, but of course ,there are other methods than that brutality....

Rat Faced

06-05-2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by nahan+5 June 2003 - 00:33--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nahan @ 5 June 2003 - 00:33)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--nahan@5 June 2003 - 00:23
Aniamls were put on this earth for one reason ,to provide for HUMANS.
Not so we could provide for them.
Thats why they werent created with the intellect of ours.
They were created for a purpose.
Lamsey and select others
It makes you very ignorent and single minded ,to not take this all into account.
To compare a human life to that of a chicken or cow is preposterous.

And poor poor lamsey, to resort to name calling wont win you any arguments.Calling me a "troll "
It isnt needed for an adult conversation.

But thats right you arent an adult yet,so everyone excuse lamsey he has
still got many things in life to learn . [/b][/quote]
Not really, you stated that animals were put on the earth for one reason, to provide for humans.

That totally ignores a little thing called the Theory of Evolution, which about 95% of the Civilized World (including most major Churches) acknowledge.

You are therefore either an Idiot or a Religious Fanatic; either of which mean that your post is liable to be totally without meaning to the other posters, who are debating their PERSONAL feelings and not their religious views.

However, i lost track of this thread a long way back.......

Much as i admire Lamsey for standing up for his admirable belief about living creatures; I also think that Human Life is more important than other animal life.

If everyone became Vegitarians, there would be MORE animals on the endangered list, including many that are currently raised as Livestock.

This doesnt mean i condemn vegitarians, however I would expect them to have the same respect for MY lifestyle of Mince Pies, Burgers and Bacon Butties. ;)