Scottish Executive Elections

[Mr JP Fugley]

Updates can be found here

http://shandwick2.fs-server.com/_client/wspa/stv-index.php

Voting closes at 22:00 our time. So that's in a couple of hours.

Predictions are for it to be close between Scottish National Party and Scottish Labour with the most recent polls giving the SNP 48 seats and Labour 43. This would mean that the SNP could form a majority coalition Govt with the Liberal Democrats (predicted to get 18 seats). However Labour could not form such a coalition.

Let's hope there is a decent turnout, particularly when it looks to be this close.

[Colt Seevers]

So have you voted yet?

I can't be arsed...complete apathy towards all the candidates, and I think i'm disillusioned with politics in general, they are all as bad as each other.

A worrying trend though is all these one issue party's that seem to be springing up... here's a nice example http://www.sacl.info wtf?

Anyway I can see the polling centre from here... just got to motivate myself to walk there.... 'moan the SNP!!!1111!

[Mr JP Fugley]

Yup. I voted before work.

I always vote, that way I can complain about how we are governed. I think if you don't make the effort then you can't really complain.

A a pal(burd)'s Mum-in law said that she was going to vote for the British National Party because she didn't believe in all this Scottish National Party independence nonsense.

When her Son pointed out what the BNP really were and not a party about maintaining the union she was all like, "Oh, no I won't be voting for them".
Imagine they were to get votes on a mistake like that.

[Colt Seevers]

I always vote, that way I can complain about how we are governed. I think if you don't make the effort then you can't really complain.


Aye fair point, I'm the first to moan if people don't use their vote.... Anyway just back...very quiet round the polling station, they should give away free bottles of Buckie just for casting yer vote.... then there would be a record turnout! :dry: :shutup:

[Mr JP Fugley]

I think they do that in Coatbridge.

[lynx]

That, or a smack round the head with a piece of 2 by 4.

Either way you wake up with a headache.

[vidcc]

A a pal(burd)'s Mum-in law said that she was going to vote for the British National Party because she didn't believe in all this Scottish National Party independence nonsense.

When her Son pointed out what the BNP really were and not a party about maintaining the union she was all like, "Oh, no I won't be voting for them".
Imagine they were to get votes on a mistake like that.

What do you think is worse, an uninformed vote or no vote at all?

[Mr JP Fugley]

:lol:

A good night would probably involve both.

Anyway voting is closed now so we await the results. Bearing in mind that there's two parts due to proportional representation.

One votes for the constituency MSP and also casts a vote for a party. The second votes are used to calculate the number of MSPs, not directly elected, allocated to each party.

That's why guys like Tommy Sheridan are practically guaranteed a seat. Even if they are not elected at constituency level so long as the party gets enough votes in the other part then they pick their own MSPs. At least that's how I understand it.

[Mr JP Fugley]

It's actually not that simple, but it's explained at the website I linked to. Just above the predictor. It's called the additional member system.

[vidcc]

I ask because much as I agree people should vote and can't complain if they don't, an uniformed vote to me is akin to deciding the election by throwing a dart while blindfolded and the name it lands on wins.

I can't decide which bothers me the most so haven't voted for either(I should have made a poll) does this mean I can't complain :unsure:

[Mr JP Fugley]

Here's what CBS think.

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2007/05/03/image2757975g.jpg

:lol:

Words and stuff http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/03/world/main2757766.shtml

[j2k4]

What do you think is worse, an uninformed vote or no vote at all?

I vote for the uninformed vote being the worse of the two.

Under-informed is just as bad.

That said, I hope you get what/who you want.

[Mr JP Fugley]

I prefer democracy to include as many people as possible. In an ideal World we would have a 100% turnout.

The next stage would be for people to think more deeply about who they were voting for. However let's not shoot for the moon just now. If we can just get them off their arses for a wee while to go to the bother of choosing their own leaders that's a starting point.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in Australia voting is compulsory. I like that idea.

[j2k4]

I prefer democracy to include as many people as possible. In an ideal World we would have a 100% turnout.

The next stage would be for people to think more deeply about who they were voting for. However let's not shoot for the moon just now. If we can just get them off their arses for a wee while to go to the bother of choosing their own leaders that's a starting point.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in Australia voting is compulsory. I like that idea.

I wouldn't mind it myself, as long as it included concurrent means-testing.

Make 'em show up for the the test, then make the vote optional for those who pass.

They'd figure it out after a few election cycles.

EDIT:

And make it a county, state, or federal holiday to suit.

[vidcc]

I prefer democracy to include as many people as possible. In an ideal World we would have a 100% turnout.

The next stage would be for people to think more deeply about who they were voting for. However let's not shoot for the moon just now. If we can just get them off their arses for a wee while to go to the bother of choosing their own leaders that's a starting point.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in Australia voting is compulsory. I like that idea.
The only way I would find compulsory voting remotely acceptable is if "none of the above" or similar wording were an option.
Some people don't vote because there is no acceptable choice for them.

[j2k4]

I prefer democracy to include as many people as possible. In an ideal World we would have a 100% turnout.

The next stage would be for people to think more deeply about who they were voting for. However let's not shoot for the moon just now. If we can just get them off their arses for a wee while to go to the bother of choosing their own leaders that's a starting point.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in Australia voting is compulsory. I like that idea.
The only way I would find compulsory voting remotely acceptable is if "none of the above" or similar wording were an option.
Some people don't vote because there is no acceptable choice for them.

A quibble easily dealt with by adding that option.

You don't have to get your knickers in a twist over it.

[Mr JP Fugley]

I prefer democracy to include as many people as possible. In an ideal World we would have a 100% turnout.

The next stage would be for people to think more deeply about who they were voting for. However let's not shoot for the moon just now. If we can just get them off their arses for a wee while to go to the bother of choosing their own leaders that's a starting point.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in Australia voting is compulsory. I like that idea.

I wouldn't mind it myself, as long as it included concurrent means-testing.

Make 'em show up for the the test, then make the vote optional for those who pass.

They'd figure it out after a few election cycles.

EDIT:

And make it a county, state, or federal holiday to suit.

Please explain that to me because my first reading of it and understanding of what you mean is appalling.

[Mr JP Fugley]

Predicted turnout around 60%, whilst not great it's a decent improvement on the last time which was around 50%.

That makes me happy, with reservations.

[j2k4]

I wouldn't mind it myself, as long as it included concurrent means-testing.

Make 'em show up for the the test, then make the vote optional for those who pass.

They'd figure it out after a few election cycles.

EDIT:

And make it a county, state, or federal holiday to suit.

Please explain that to me because my first reading of it and understanding of what you mean is appalling.

I'd prefer an informed voter, and means-testing would serve the same function as a naturalization test does in the case of an immigrant.

No reason to be appalled, JP.

[Mr JP Fugley]

What do you mean by "means testing".

In my country it refers to income.

[j2k4]

What do you mean by "means testing".

In my country it refers to income.

Oh.

Um, call it a basic knowledge test, having to do with the voting process, and measuring cognizance of candidates, issues, etc.

[Mr JP Fugley]

What do you mean by "means testing".

In my country it refers to income.

Oh.

Um, call it a basic knowledge test, having to do with the voting process, and measuring cognizance of candidates, issues, etc.

Yup, appalling, that's what I thought. Who the fuck are you to decide who has the right to choose who rules them.

In other news Jack McConnell (current First Minister) won his seat by a mile.

[Mr JP Fugley]

Right, I'm out of here. Someone has fucked up my last post and I can assure you it wasn't me. I can't even begin to imagine why anyone would alter it.

It was perfectly legible the last time I looked at it and it certainly didn't contain any smillies.

TTFN

[j2k4]

Right, I'm out of here.

TTFN

Yeah, me too. :huh:

[Colt Seevers]

Hey JP, I'm sure you already know but, good ole Tommy Sheridan never got re-elected!!!

Excellent, what a knobend he was....good riddance to the self proclaimed saviour of the poor!

Looks like the SNP are doing well... :)

[Mr JP Fugley]

Hey JP, I'm sure you already know but, good ole Tommy Sheridan never got re-elected!!!

Excellent, what a knobend he was....good riddance to the self proclaimed saviour of the poor!

Looks like the SNP are doing well... :)

Yeah, cool. The Scottish Socialist who wore Armani suits, drove a fancy car and sent his wean for single MMR jabs privately, even tho' he's the great NHS supporter. He is a cunt of Galloway proportions.

I take it his party didn't get fuck all seats so someone could stand down for him. Fuck neither did the SSP, that's a shame.

SNP 47
Scottish Labour 46
Conservative 17
Lib Dem 16
Green 2
Ind 1

To get a majority coalition they need 65 seats in total. Bearing in mind that Lib Dem have stated they will not support any move for independence and the Tories full name is the Conservative and Unionist Party. The SNP will have to do a shit load of compromising to get anything done. Oh dear, who would have thunk that when the system was set up.

The next month will be interesting. Who will be voted First Minister and will Salmond be able to get enough support to get the majority to make any Executive practical.

If there is no First Minister in 28 day guess what happens next.

[Mr JP Fugley]

In reality the Ind is Margo McDonald, a former SNP stalwart. We should probably bear that in mind too.

[Biggles]

Voted as ever. I don't view it as a chore - more as purchasing the right to complain like feck about the useless eedjits.

Margo and the Greens should feel more comfortable with the Nats than any other party so it begs the question of the Libs - are they Jack's pussies or can they strike out on their own?

Labour and the Libs don't have enough between them to form an administration and asking the Tories for help would be a bridge too far for most Labour voters.

In short, the electorate have tied them all up a treat :)

[Colt Seevers]

If there is no First Minister in 28 day guess what happens next.

A Big Brother style txt vote? ;)

The next few weeks are going to be interesting. :whistling I can't see the SNP settling for anything less than a promise for a referendum on Independence sometime in the very near future, if any deal is to be struck.

I'm also glad to see the The Electoral Commission are to conduct a inquiry into the 100,000 spoilt ballots.... :frusty:

Yup, those pesky Commie dogs The SSP and Solidarity were completely wiped out. Jump for joy...Tommy "The Tan" Sheridan and his ex cohort Rosie "Ugly Bitch" Kane, of the Scottish Socialists Party, both lost their Glasgow seats. Fuckin A! :lol: Glad to see some common sense prevailing among the voters of Glasgow. or perhaps all those spoilt papers were Rosie and TS's votes... :noes: :shutup:



Brian: Excuse me. Are you the Judean People's Front?
Reg: Fuck off! We're the People's Front of Judea
Life of Brian (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079470/quotes)

[Mr JP Fugley]

The next few weeks are going to be interesting. :whistling I can't see the SNP settling for anything less than a promise for a referendum on Independence sometime in the very near future, if any deal is to be struck.


The quickest a referendum would happen is 2010. However there is little chance of the Lib Dems agreeing to one on independence.

I think it's more likely that the SNP will be pragmatic and compromise, a referendum on constitutional change short of independence. Going for the "long game" as it were.

I think just being able to form a coalition Government and having the post of First Minister will be enough for them ... this time. To get this far and then risk it by doing it all again is too much of a gamble. Especially for Salmond personally.

The Lib Dems will be content to be "king makers" again and the Greens will be happy to have some form of influence.

[Mr JP Fugley]

Voted as ever. I don't view it as a chore - more as purchasing the right to complain like feck about the useless eedjits.

In short, the electorate have tied them all up a treat :)

I agree with the former, totally.

However for the latter I am more inclined to the view that the Westminster Govt neutered the Nats with the Scotland Act. Unless there is a complete turnaround by the Lib Dems on their position re independence how are the SNP ever going to get a shot at independence. Short of getting a wheen of seats themselves.

[j2k4]

So, the upshot, then:

Are you reasonably sanguine about the results?

[gratex]

There will be some behind the scenes deal that negates a referendum but gives more devolved powers to the executive, it seems the only likely result of this and raises eyebrows as far as how convenient the results are for the above to happen. Obviously labour were going to get trounced it was just a question of how much, and this result seems like just enough to appease disgruntled nationalists ... until the pressure lightens.

The mind boggles though, at how people don't bat an eyelid when people like Menzies Campbell says there will be no referendum. Is this democracy?

[Mr JP Fugley]

So, the upshot, then:

Are you reasonably sanguine about the results?

No, not at all. However it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be, being a Labour supporter.

The Lib Dems are in a really strong bargaining position just now, so unless the Nats are willing to compromise, a lot, then they may not be able to get a majority coalition.

It's even a possibility that we'll have to do it all again. If a First Minister can't be elected within 28 days.

[Mr JP Fugley]

There will be some behind the scenes deal that negates a referendum but gives more devolved powers to the executive, it seems the only likely result of this and raises eyebrows as far as how convenient the results are for the above to happen. Obviously labour were going to get trounced it was just a question of how much, and this result seems like just enough to appease disgruntled nationalists ... until the pressure lightens.

The mind boggles though, at how people don't bat an eyelid when people like Menzies Campbell says there will be no referendum. Is this democracy?

Yes, this is democracy. His party don't support Independence, so why would they support a referendum on it.

[bigboab]

Why are people not willing to have a Referendum? Does this mean that they are not willing to accept the will of the Scottish people?

Why cant they consider the fact that the majority of the Scottish people might say no to independence?

Change the system so that only the party with the most seats or votes can elect a first minister. Rather than this one, where a party with 100,000 votes more than any other party and more seats under the present system is not allowed to govern. Which stupid party agreed to this system?

Is this one type of Democracy that soldiers in Iraq are dying for?

[Mr JP Fugley]

The Scottish people who could be arsed have already voted.


Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Nicol Stephen said that there was no way his party would support a referendum on independence.

"In terms of a potential coalition relationship with the Liberal Democrats, we've been very clear about this."

"We don't support independence. We don't support a referendum on independence. We support more powers for the Scottish parliament."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6627589.stm

[j2k4]

So, the upshot, then:

Are you reasonably sanguine about the results?

No, not at all. However it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be, being a Labour supporter.

The Lib Dems are in a really strong bargaining position just now, so unless the Nats are willing to compromise, a lot, then they may not be able to get a majority coalition.

It's even a possibility that we'll have to do it all again. If a First Minister can't be elected within 28 days.

Hmmm.

I'd have to be there, and sober, too.

Tough one. :huh:

[Biggles]

The Scottish people who could be arsed have already voted.


Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Nicol Stephen said that there was no way his party would support a referendum on independence.

"In terms of a potential coalition relationship with the Liberal Democrats, we've been very clear about this."

"We don't support independence. We don't support a referendum on independence. We support more powers for the Scottish parliament."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6627589.stm

It would seem that the Libs don't want to be part of the Government either with the SNP or Labour. Strange position to take - makes you wonder why they bothered standing really. I am not convinced that their supporters will be all that chuffed - it seems all the Libs stand for is "not independence"

I wonder how it will go as a minority Government. Interesting times.

[Mr JP Fugley]

I think that is only allowed if a First Minister can be elected.

[Biggles]

I think that is only allowed if a First Minister can be elected.

I wonder if the Conservatives are discussing this at the moment .... along the lines of "if we vote for Alex as First Minister it is really going to annoy Gordon" Not that the Conservatives like the SNP but they might justify it on the "biggest party, most votes, only fair" basis. The fact that it might cause problems for Labour in Westminster being purely coincidental. :)

I am not sure if a Minority Government will work but it it is interesting watching the jostling for best position.

[Barbarossa]

It would seem that the Libs don't want to be part of the Government either with the SNP or Labour. Strange position to take - makes you wonder why they bothered standing really.

Aiming to be a big opposition voice has its attractions.

You can do all the moaning and whinging you like, and take responsibility for nothing :smilie4:

[MaxOverlord]

Aiming to be a big opposition voice has its attractions.

You can do all the moaning and whinging you like, and take responsibility for nothing :smilie4:


Well said. Close to perfection. :yup:

[Mr JP Fugley]

I think that is only allowed if a First Minister can be elected.

I wonder if the Conservatives are discussing this at the moment .... along the lines of "if we vote for Alex as First Minister it is really going to annoy Gordon" Not that the Conservatives like the SNP but they might justify it on the "biggest party, most votes, only fair" basis. The fact that it might cause problems for Labour in Westminster being purely coincidental. :)

I am not sure if a Minority Government will work but it it is interesting watching the jostling for best position.

Les, ffs it's not often you decide that talking pish is your best option. Deliberate as it obviously is.

However let's run with it for a laugh. The Conservative and Unionist Party play a pivotol role in electing a First Minister 100% commited to independence. The main objective of his party for decades. A party which is also as left wing as we have left :naughty:

How the fuck does that work and who looks stupid when they do it.

Good point actually. Let's hope they do. Then the SNP have no majority and can't actually do anything, crippling them for years. With a First Minister the Tories got into power. It's win / win.

[j2k4]

I wonder if the Conservatives are discussing this at the moment .... along the lines of "if we vote for Alex as First Minister it is really going to annoy Gordon" Not that the Conservatives like the SNP but they might justify it on the "biggest party, most votes, only fair" basis. The fact that it might cause problems for Labour in Westminster being purely coincidental. :)

I am not sure if a Minority Government will work but it it is interesting watching the jostling for best position.

Les, ffs it's not often you decide that talking pish is your best option. Deliberate as it obviously is.

However let's run with it for a laugh. The Conservative and Unionist Party play a pivotol role in electing a First Minister 100% commited to independence. The main objective of his party for decades. A party which is also as left wing as we have left :naughty:

How the fuck does that work and who looks stupid when they do it.

Good point actually. Let's hope they do. Then the SNP have no majority and can't actually do anything, crippling them for years. With a First Minister the Tories got into power. It's win / win.

So then, you are happy. :)

[Biggles]

I wonder if the Conservatives are discussing this at the moment .... along the lines of "if we vote for Alex as First Minister it is really going to annoy Gordon" Not that the Conservatives like the SNP but they might justify it on the "biggest party, most votes, only fair" basis. The fact that it might cause problems for Labour in Westminster being purely coincidental. :)

I am not sure if a Minority Government will work but it it is interesting watching the jostling for best position.

Les, ffs it's not often you decide that talking pish is your best option. Deliberate as it obviously is.

However let's run with it for a laugh. The Conservative and Unionist Party play a pivotol role in electing a First Minister 100% commited to independence. The main objective of his party for decades. A party which is also as left wing as we have left :naughty:

How the fuck does that work and who looks stupid when they do it.

Good point actually. Let's hope they do. Then the SNP have no majority and can't actually do anything, crippling them for years. With a First Minister the Tories got into power. It's win / win.

I never said it made sense :ermm:

1) The Tories can vote for Alex (they don't like him but it would annoy Labour)

2) They can vote for Jack to block Alex (but despite both being Unionist they don't like him either and it would make Gordon's life easier)

3) They vote for Annabel - no chance of her getting in but it leaves the door open for Alex to get in without them sullying their hands. (this is actually the likeliest option I think)

4) None of the above because the whole thing is a bit of a shambles.

Despite the uncertainty it is fascinating.

I am still baffled by the Libs though. They won't talk with the SNP because independence is against their policy but they worked with Labour for four years despite Iraq, Trident and Nuclear power stations :blink: Obviously some manifesto commitments are more equal than others.

J2

I think we are happy - it looks like we have tied the hands of power.

[j2k4]

J2

I think we are happy - it looks like we have tied the hands of power.

Ah, the best of all possible results. :)

Your only worry now is the quality of the entertainment and the temperature of the beverage. :D

[Wizard Scuff]

It's the way the whole thing was set up originally. The Government set the Executive up so that a, It would only ever really work as a coalition and b, It was highly unlikely that the SNP would ever be able to get the majority they need (coalition or otherwise) to force independence.

The one thing that concerns me most about SNP possibly gaining power would be fundamental changes to the system of taxation. I know that's not a devolved issue, however I believe they have limited tax charging powers. I'm not convinced that would be a good thing. However they may want to do it just because the power is there to use.

Having said that, if they get a minority coalition (and a seriously weak one at that) what's the chances of them getting anything through. Salmond could end up as the First Minister who did nowt.

[Biggles]

It's the way the whole thing was set up originally. The Government set the Executive up so that a, It would only ever really work as a coalition and b, It was highly unlikely that the SNP would ever be able to get the majority they need (coalition or otherwise) to force independence.

The one thing that concerns me most about SNP possibly gaining power would be fundamental changes to the system of taxation. I know that's not a devolved issue, however I believe they have limited tax charging powers. I'm not convinced that would be a good thing. However they may want to do it just because the power is there to use.

Having said that, if they get a minority coalition (and a seriously weak one at that) what's the chances of them getting anything through. Salmond could end up as the First Minister who did nowt

and consequently the mostly fondly remembered :)

[j2k4]

It's the way the whole thing was set up originally. The Government set the Executive up so that a, It would only ever really work as a coalition...

I wonder what you mean by your use of the word "work".

Some might find the presumptive meaning a horrifying prospect.

Personally, I would celebrate gridlock, owing to the unremitting idiocy of politicians of whatever stripe.

[Wizard Scuff]

It's the way the whole thing was set up originally. The Government set the Executive up so that a, It would only ever really work as a coalition and b, It was highly unlikely that the SNP would ever be able to get the majority they need (coalition or otherwise) to force independence.

The one thing that concerns me most about SNP possibly gaining power would be fundamental changes to the system of taxation. I know that's not a devolved issue, however I believe they have limited tax charging powers. I'm not convinced that would be a good thing. However they may want to do it just because the power is there to use.

Having said that, if they get a minority coalition (and a seriously weak one at that) what's the chances of them getting anything through. Salmond could end up as the First Minister who did nowt

and consequently the mostly fondly remembered :)

I think that will be Donald Dewar, the First First.

However Salmond doing nowt would certainly be a tremendous improvement on his previous performance.

[Wizard Scuff]

Alec Salmond has been elected First Minister with the support of The Green Party's 2 votes. He won 49 - 46.

The Conservatives and Lib Dems abstained.

That's within the allocated time so he can form an administration. However it will very much be a minority coalition. It remains to be seen if the Executive will actually do anything or will he just be blocked. Can he compromise enough with the other parties to make it work.

[j2k4]

Please keep us apprised of his progress or lack of same.

[Wizard Scuff]

Willdo, mate.

He's currently taking the position that the Executive will have to be based on consultation and compromise. Yeah right, you would have said that if the Lib Dems had agreed to a majority coalition.

It's actually going to be quite interesting.

[j2k4]

A nice distracting gridlock can have manifold benefits. :)

[Biggles]

A nice distracting gridlock can have manifold benefits. :)

....especially if all the parties are attempting to demonstrate that they are the mature responsible ones and are loathe to be seen to be pursuing petty partisan issues. It is not only beneficial but also quite amusing. :shifty:

[j2k4]

A nice distracting gridlock can have manifold benefits. :)

....especially if all the parties are attempting to demonstrate that they are the mature responsible ones and are loathe to be seen to be pursuing petty partisan issues. It is not only beneficial but also quite amusing. :shifty:

The situation in France is similarly promising, I think. ;)

[MaxOverlord]

....especially if all the parties are attempting to demonstrate that they are the mature responsible ones and are loathe to be seen to be pursuing petty partisan issues. It is not only beneficial but also quite amusing. :shifty:

The situation in France is similarly promising, I think. ;)

Sarkozy is naming a diverse group to his upper cabinet positions.
Jean-Louis Borloo-Centrist as economy chief.
Bernard Kouchner-Leftist as foreign minister.
As well as a handful of women.

Will be interesting to see if it works to unify the country or turns into a sludge of a government much like the U.S. If they can stay away from partisan pissing-matches it might be quite refreshing to watch.

[Wizard Scuff]

A nice distracting gridlock can have manifold benefits. :)

....especially if all the parties are attempting to demonstrate that they are the mature responsible ones and are loathe to be seen to be pursuing petty partisan issues. It is not only beneficial but also quite amusing. :shifty:

It's crazy, but it may just work.