Karma

[Brenya]

I don't believe in Karma. I don't believe that virtue is rewarded and sin creates suffering.
Prove to me that it is true.
The burden of proof belongs to those who believe there is Karma, so you can't just say "prove to me it isn't."

[bigboab]

I don't believe in Karma(Or any other Indian food:blink:). I do believe that you pay the price for the type of life that you lead. The majority of 'evil' people that I have known in my lifetime all died in their 40's and 50's. That may be a blessing considering all the ails that come with old age.:lol:

[lynx]

You seem rather hyperactive today.
I believe I wish you were Karma.

[jimbo12345]

Trying to prove Karma is real is like trying to prove God exists, in my opinion. It's more a belief/state of mind that the person has than a tangable, provable thing.

[Busyman™]

I think karma is bullshit.

People have the dumbest reasons for believing in karma. It's like folks that believe in horoscopes.

If a guy a killed someone then a year later gets hits by a bus and dies, people will say that's karma.

They STFU though when a person that didn't do such a thing gets hit by a bus and dies.

I believe there are people that are evil and do evil things and all their life pretty much nothing really bad happens to them.

I believe there are good people that mainly do good works al their life and they get shitted on....all their life (possibly even die horribly).

There is a whole spectrum of what happens to good/bad people. I think people seek comfort in believing in such things.

I mentioned horoscopes as well. There are folks that are Leos that the description of a Taurus. Yet people will believe in horoscopes if that day it happens to be right for a particular sign.

Come the fuck on.:dry:

[Biggles]

Do the Ferengi not say

"No good deed goes unpunished"

That is Karma non?

[popopot]

I think karma is just an excuse for people to hide behind. It allows people that are too scared to do something that has to be done in an unscrupulous or perceived ‘wrong’ way from doing it.

I also believe that karma is only deliberated upon by people that have no or little experience of hardship and suffering, and thus, have the time and effort to dwell on it. Karma is a poor excuse for someone to be a good person. You should be good for the sake of being good and not ‘just in case’ for the sake of karma. An evil person does not change their ways because of karma (except Earl), but because of the realisation of the error of their ways.

You make up your own karma as you do luck.

People also mix up karma with destiny/kismet/fate, which I do believe in, but as something that is completely unrelated to karma because the two are completely contrary.

Anyway, my two cents.

[threelions00]

I am not sure on this one. I think I need to finish watching My Name is Earl to decide.

I am not sure why things happen as they do, things just happen. So I believe que sera, sera

And that is my 2 cents

[j2k4]

What would an enlightened person think?

Should someone who does not believe in Karma be considered to be unenlightened at all (at all).

[bad_andy]

Welp, I definately believe in it, but I am pretty convinced by past lives too, so perhaps it is possible that karma persists through future lives as a method of developing your soul.

Actually I guess maybe it is a bit simpler, all your actions good and bad have consequences, sometimes they aren't always evident to you or especially to others (we judge and condemn ourselves the worst at times).

But then I also believe that when you die you experience everything good and bad that you cause including how your actions affect people interacting with those you directly impact.. A large number of people who have been clinicly dead and come back will describe exactly that..

[j2k4]

But then I also believe that when you die you experience everything good and bad that you cause including how your actions affect people interacting with those you directly impact.. A large number of people who have been clinicly dead and come back will describe exactly that..

Yes, surely the little ultimate and life-ending personal film strip everyone sees would, in the case of, say, a serial killer, strike naught but a series of minor keys and dark cinematic hues...;)

[Busyman™]

Welp, I definately believe in it, but I am pretty convinced by past lives too, so perhaps it is possible that karma persists through future lives as a method of developing your soul.

Actually I guess maybe it is a bit simpler, all your actions good and bad have consequences, sometimes they aren't always evident to you or especially to others (we judge and condemn ourselves the worst at times).

But then I also believe that when you die you experience everything good and bad that you cause including how your actions affect people interacting with those you directly impact.. A large number of people who have been clinicly dead and come back will describe exactly that..

You know what just the belief on the surface, I can respect (not believe in myself). However, saying every action has a consequence is a no-brainer.

Just don't fucking tell me that if I curse out an old lady that it is the reason that my car stereo was taken.:dry:

It's the reasons that are stupid.

If rob a bank then go to jail or get shot. OK
If I helped someone then later on they remember that and help me. OK

Those are direct relationships.

People with karma beliefs have got things that have shit all to do with each other relating cuz it sounds good.

[j2k4]

So, then.

Why was your car stereo taken.

Did you intentionally cross some wires.

[Busyman™]

So, then.

Why was your car stereo taken.

Did you intentionally cross some wires.

j2, it's not working man. :no:

Go do your rounds or something.

[j2k4]

So, then.

Why was your car stereo taken.

Did you intentionally cross some wires.

j2, it's not working man. :no:

Go do your rounds or something.

You are being intentionally ungracious.

You cad.

[Busyman™]

j2, it's not working man. :no:

Go do your rounds or something.

You are being intentionally ungracious.

You cad.

Mmk next time can you insult me with something more mainstream.

I at least would like to feel like saying something insulting back.:ermm:

Person 1: "You are such a dweebassed twerp."

Person 2: "Oh yeah. Well you're a cad."

Person 1: "Well alrighty then."

[j2k4]

You are being intentionally ungracious.

You cad.

Mmk next time can you insult me with something more mainstream.

I at least would like to feel like saying something insulting back.:ermm:

Person 1: "You are such a dweebassed twerp."

Person 2: "Oh yeah. Well you're a cad."

Person 1: "Well alrighty then."

Oh, sorry.

Didn't realize you were unarmed.

[lynx]

I just wish you two would stop fucking up every thread in here, you are like a couple of little kids.


As I understand it, Karma means that everything is pre-planned.

If it isn't preplanned, we try our best to change things to our advantage; sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail.

If it is preplanned, our attempts to change things to our advantage are also preplanned, as is the success or failure.

Since we don't know which is which, what difference does it make?

[Busyman™]

I just wish you two would stop fucking up every thread in here, you are like a couple of little kids.

Then that's something for you to take up with your cohort in team chat.

I was on topic until asked about my car stereo.

I even told j2 to go do his rounds but he wouldn't listen.:idunno:

Furthermore, skip over the one or two off-topic responses by each of us if it bothers you so much.

That's all it was, btw.:dry:

You can always strike the posts from the record.:devil:

Also you are wrong about karma.

[bad_andy]

I just wish you two would stop fucking up every thread in here, you are like a couple of little kids.


As I understand it, Karma means that everything is pre-planned.

If it isn't preplanned, we try our best to change things to our advantage; sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail.

If it is preplanned, our attempts to change things to our advantage are also preplanned, as is the success or failure.

Since we don't know which is which, what difference does it make?


My beliefs are a little more complicated.. What with the likelyhood of possible infinite parallel universes free will is truth.. I don't equate karma with predestination, merely as another opportunity to re-member and update one's perspective..

Also, I do think karma isn't usually very obvious.. It would be too easy to avoid the consequences like that..

[jimbo12345]

Karma is a mainly bhuddist/taoist theme i think (correct me if i'm wrong).

Does that mean it goes against main stream Christianity? i.e. Christians shouldn't believe in karma.

Why i say that is:

Christianity has large content about repenting and forgiveness. Say, for example, i was to really hurt someone, purposely. Though, i see the errors of my ways, and genuinely repent and make ammends.

But karma has a lot to do with "what goes around, comes around". So, even though i've repented, does this still mean i need to pay for my hurting another, if i was a Christian. And will i get reward for my repent and ammends?

Or is that the full circle? I did bad, though good came back?

What if i didn't repent? I'd go to hell, but that's not full circle.

Just started reading about Taoism (page 2).

So, to sum that all up, can Christians really believe in karma?

[thewizeard]

Can anyone really believe in God and if so, prove that it exists...

There are cases of"Karma", that have been checked, where some young children seem to know exactly about the life of someone who lived earlier; and shouldn't have .

Up until now, no one has proved God's existence. So why pick on Karma?

[j2k4]

Up until now, no one has proved God's existence. So why pick on Karma?

Why not pick on Karma?

[thewizeard]

I think karma is just an excuse for people to hide behind. It allows people that are too scared to do something that has to be done in an unscrupulous or perceived ‘wrong’ way from doing it.

I also believe that karma is only deliberated upon by people that have no or little experience of hardship and suffering, and thus, have the time and effort to dwell on it. Karma is a poor excuse for someone to be a good person. You should be good for the sake of being good and not ‘just in case’ for the sake of karma. An evil person does not change their ways because of karma (except Earl), but because of the realisation of the error of their ways.

You make up your own karma as you do luck.

People also mix up karma with destiny/kismet/fate, which I do believe in, but as something that is completely unrelated to karma because the two are completely contrary.

Anyway, my two cents.

Karma is related to incarnation. karma is not just something created in this life that then goes ahead and affects you positively or negatively. It will be created in this life but will affect one positively or adversely in this and one's next life accumulatively

Karma is the effort in past, present and future lives that can give one great powers or handicaps.

Basically if for example you did not listen carefully to wisdom in this lifetime then according to the "rules"of Karma, in your next life, if you succeed in returning as a human being, then you could be born death or with other hearing related impediments. ( this is a crude example)

[j2k4]

I think karma is just an excuse for people to hide behind. It allows people that are too scared to do something that has to be done in an unscrupulous or perceived ‘wrong’ way from doing it.

I also believe that karma is only deliberated upon by people that have no or little experience of hardship and suffering, and thus, have the time and effort to dwell on it. Karma is a poor excuse for someone to be a good person. You should be good for the sake of being good and not ‘just in case’ for the sake of karma. An evil person does not change their ways because of karma (except Earl), but because of the realisation of the error of their ways.

You make up your own karma as you do luck.

People also mix up karma with destiny/kismet/fate, which I do believe in, but as something that is completely unrelated to karma because the two are completely contrary.

Anyway, my two cents.

Karma is related to incarnation. karma is not just something created in this life that then goes ahead and affects you positively or negatively. It will be created in this life but will affect one positively or adversely in this and one's next life accumulatively

Karma is the effort in past, present and future lives that can give one great powers or handicaps.

Basically if for example you did not listen carefully to wisdom in this lifetime then according to the "rules"of Karma, in your next life, if you succeed in returning as a human being, then you could be born death or with other hearing related impediments. ( this is a crude example)

I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but I find myself wondering how the scientist who uses his discipline to attack religion would view Karma?

[bigboab]

Prepare for a long read.:) Unless you are not open minded and just dismiss the whole concept as cods wallop.:)

http://wn.rsarchive.org/Articles/ReKarm_e01.html

A small extract;


How could it ever occur to a scientist to show the evolution of one animal species out of another if the latter, in regard to its physical makeup, were as dissimilar to the former as Newton, in regard to his soul, is to his forebears: One conceives of one animal species having proceeded from a similar one which is merely one degree lower than itself. Therefore, Newton's soul must have sprung from a soul similar to it, but only one degree lower, psychically. Newton's soul nature is comprised in his biography. I recognize Newton by his biography just as I recognize a lion by the description of its species. And I comprehend the species “lion” if I imagine that it has sprung from a species on a correspondingly lower stage. Thus I comprehend what is comprised in Newton's biography if I conceive of it as having developed from the biography of a soul which resembles it, is related to it as soul. From this follows that Newton's soul existed already in another form, just as the species “lion” existed previously in a different form. For clear thought, there is no escape from this conception. Only because the modern believers do not have the courage to think their thoughts through to the end do they not arrive at this final conclusion. Through it, however, the reappearance of the being who is comprised in the biography is secured. — Either we must abandon the whole natural-scientific theory of evolution, or we must admit that it must be extended to include the evolution of the soul. There are only two alternatives: either, every soul is created by a miracle, just as the animal species would have to be created by miracles if they have not developed one out of the other, or, the soul has developed and has previously existed in another form, just as the animal species has existed in another form.

[thewizeard]

The problem being the Soul aspect. First one would have to prove the existence of an "independent" soul, of this, there is no proof.

[bigboab]

If there is no independent soul ,then there is no Karma.:)

[j2k4]

If there is no independent soul ,then there is no Karma.:)

I prefer this more succinct version. :)

[spamj]

Personally I think karma is a manifestation (or possibly a side-effect) of the mind's ability affect your movement through reality.

To explain:

Quantum physics suggests that the fundamental nature of reality exists as a probability wave. Energy and matter (what are different aspects of the same thing) have a specific probability of existing in each of several states. We do not know which state a particle will end up in until we observe it (or more specifically we interact with it directly or indirectly). Though we do not know definitively where an oxygen molecule will be at any given moment, we can say that it has a near certain probablility continuing on whatever path it is already on, and a near impossible probability of jumping 100 meters to the left.

If you believe in free will than you can take this to mean that each of us has some control over how these probability waves will manifest at each point of interaction. Naturally it takes more effort of will to make improbable things happen that it does to make probable things happen. Again, in terms of quantum physics you could say that at every point a choice is made (every time you interact with the world and a probability becomes a reality) two or more new universes are created and free will is a matter of deciding which one to take.

I believe karma is not a direct relationship between cause and effect. Karma is the act of realizing that every decision you make is a way of controlling your travel through existence. By making the good choices (what is good is entirely subjective) you can, to some extent, guide yourself to good results.

[Barbarossa]

cracking post :smilie4:

You've explained that incredibly well. Cheers :)

[Busyman™]

Personally I think karma is a manifestation (or possibly a side-effect) of the mind's ability affect your movement through reality.

To explain:

Quantum physics suggests that the fundamental nature of reality exists as a probability wave. Energy and matter (what are different aspects of the same thing) have a specific probability of existing in each of several states. We do not know which state a particle will end up in until we observe it (or more specifically we interact with it directly or indirectly). Though we do not know definitively where an oxygen molecule will be at any given moment, we can say that it has a near certain probablility continuing on whatever path it is already on, and a near impossible probability of jumping 100 meters to the left.

If you believe in free will than you can take this to mean that each of us has some control over how these probability waves will manifest at each point of interaction. Naturally it takes more effort of will to make improbable things happen that it does to make probable things happen. Again, in terms of quantum physics you could say that at every point a choice is made (every time you interact with the world and a probability becomes a reality) two or more new universes are created and free will is a matter of deciding which one to take.

I believe karma is not a direct relationship between cause and effect. Karma is the act of realizing that every decision you make is a way of controlling your travel through existence. By making the good choices (what is good is entirely subjective) you can, to some extent, guide yourself to good results.

Making subjectively good choices can lead to good results.

Uhhh...yeah ok.

At least you didn't say that if guy who robbed the liquor store died in a plane crash a year later, that it was karma.

Saying good choices can lead to good results is like stating the CaptainObvious.

[spamj]

Making subjectively good choices can lead to good results.

Uhhh...yeah ok.

At least you didn't say that if guy who robbed the liquor store died in a plane crash a year later, that it was karma.

Saying good choices can lead to good results is like stating the CaptainObvious.



It was difficult enough to attempt to compress any real discussion on karma into 250 words or less. Thanks for paraphrasing my post into a single sentence and then chiding me for obviousness. We could have a productive, reasoned discussion on the topic or we could pick apart each other's arguments 8 words at a time. Anyone want to contribute anything substantial to the topic?

[Busyman™]

Making subjectively good choices can lead to good results.

Uhhh...yeah ok.

At least you didn't say that if guy who robbed the liquor store died in a plane crash a year later, that it was karma.

Saying good choices can lead to good results is like stating the CaptainObvious.



It was difficult enough to attempt to compress any real discussion on karma into 250 words or less. Thanks for paraphrasing my post into a single sentence and then chiding me for obviousness. We could have a productive, reasoned discussion on the topic or we could pick apart each other's arguments 8 words at a time. Anyone want to contribute anything substantial to the topic?

Is there anything substantial other than be good and good will....quite possibly....happen to you?

If I lift weights all day I will quite possibly get stronger....in body odor.:1eye:

Good shit happens to bad people and vice-versa. Karma, as the general public views it, is something that makes people feel comfortable that there is some get back for one's actions.

Generally it's pretty commonplace to believe that there is direct relationship between the good and bad that happens to you.

It's the indirect relationship that makes no sense to anyone so they the Karma label on it like people do with horoscopes.

It's bullshit.

[Xix]

Interesting discussion here. I am a Buddhist (Tibetan Buddhism) and I sincerely believe in karma. The concept of karma cannot be proved AFAIK but through studying one can come to an understanding/acceptance of this. I'm not so good at explaining karma properly so I found a few good quotes and links to their sites below where you can find a good explanation of karma:

"Countless rebirths lie ahead, both good and bad. The effects of karma (actions) are inevitable, and in previous lifetimes we have accumulated negative karma which will inevitably have its fruition in this or future lives. Just as someone witnessed by police in a criminal act will eventually be caught and punished, so we too must face the consequences of faulty actions we have committed in the past, there is no way to be at ease; those actions are irreversible; we must eventually undergo their effects."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama, from 'Kindness, Clarity and Insight (http://www.snowlionpub.com/store/store.cgi?affiliate=International_Kalachakra_Network&page=pages/BLINFI.php)'

http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/karma.html


While we are born to a state created by ourselves, yet by our own self-directed efforts there is every possibility for us to create new, favourable environments even here and now. Not only individually, but also, collectively, we are at liberty to create fresh Karma that leads either towards our progress or downfall in this very life.

According to the Buddhist doctrine of Karma, one is not always compelled by an ‘iron necessity’, for Karma is neither fate, nor predestination imposed upon us by some mysterious unknown power to which we must helplessly submit ourselves. It is one’s own doing reacting on oneself, and so one has the possibility to divert the course of one’s Karma to some extent. How far one diverts it depends on oneself.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm

Peace

[j2k4]

My own limited understanding of Karma aligns quite nicely with your explanation, Xix.

Nicely executed 1st post, and welcome to our forum. :)

[MaxOverlord]

Interesting discussion here. I am a Buddhist (Tibetan Buddhism) and I sincerely believe in karma. The concept of karma cannot be proved AFAIK but through studying one can come to an understanding/acceptance of this. I'm not so good at explaining karma properly so I found a few good quotes and links to their sites below where you can find a good explanation of karma:

"Countless rebirths lie ahead, both good and bad. The effects of karma (actions) are inevitable, and in previous lifetimes we have accumulated negative karma which will inevitably have its fruition in this or future lives. Just as someone witnessed by police in a criminal act will eventually be caught and punished, so we too must face the consequences of faulty actions we have committed in the past, there is no way to be at ease; those actions are irreversible; we must eventually undergo their effects."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama, from 'Kindness, Clarity and Insight (http://www.snowlionpub.com/store/store.cgi?affiliate=International_Kalachakra_Network&page=pages/BLINFI.php)'

http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/karma.html


While we are born to a state created by ourselves, yet by our own self-directed efforts there is every possibility for us to create new, favourable environments even here and now. Not only individually, but also, collectively, we are at liberty to create fresh Karma that leads either towards our progress or downfall in this very life.

According to the Buddhist doctrine of Karma, one is not always compelled by an ‘iron necessity’, for Karma is neither fate, nor predestination imposed upon us by some mysterious unknown power to which we must helplessly submit ourselves. It is one’s own doing reacting on oneself, and so one has the possibility to divert the course of one’s Karma to some extent. How far one diverts it depends on oneself.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm

Peace




A Buddhist!!! Get Him!!!

Welcome...welcome....just a little joke.

Hope you find what you are looking for here.:)

[Xix]

Oh Thank you kind Sirs! Thanks for the warm welcome.

[cullen7282]

Isn't karma kind of like consequences in a way? Do bad things you have bad consequences eventually. Do good things, you tend to attract more good people, things, etc.

[Xix]

Yes. This is the more obvious effect of good/bad actions and then there's the "deeper" effect. It's like ripples in a pond. You throw a stone in the pond and the ripples move out and hit the edges and comes back to the center. The whole universe is like that pond (if I may say so!). No part of the pond is separate from another part. It's all one pond/body of water. The separation between subject and object is said to be an illusion created by ourselves. That's the whole problem, ha ha! There's no separation.

[dbmp]

Positive thoughts attract positive things. That's a fact. People how live their lives with joy usually enjoy better things than the others, who are always on the negative side. I don't know if that can be called Karma thought...

[ilw]

Positive thoughts attract positive things. That's a fact.

lol

[dbmp]

Positive thoughts attract positive things. That's a fact.

lol

A fact in my life @ least. :mellow: Try it, you won't regret! :)

[bigboab]

Positive thoughts attract positive things. That's a fact. People how live their lives with joy usually enjoy better things than the others, who are always on the negative side. I don't know if that can be called Karma thought...

Hope you are not an electrician.:blink:

There are a lot of people that keep getting 'knocked back' irrespective how they look at life.

[dbmp]

Positive thoughts attract positive things. That's a fact. People how live their lives with joy usually enjoy better things than the others, who are always on the negative side. I don't know if that can be called Karma thought...

Hope you are not an electrician.:blink:

There are a lot of people that keep getting 'knocked back' irrespective how they look at life.

No, just a student. :)

[ilw]

Hope you are not an electrician.:blink:

There are a lot of people that keep getting 'knocked back' irrespective how they look at life.

No, just a student. :)

media studies or graphic design?

[Busyman™]

Yes. This is the more obvious effect of good/bad actions and then there's the "deeper" effect. It's like ripples in a pond. You throw a stone in the pond and the ripples move out and hit the edges and comes back to the center. The whole universe is like that pond (if I may say so!). No part of the pond is separate from another part. It's all one pond/body of water. The separation between subject and object is said to be an illusion created by ourselves. That's the whole problem, ha ha! There's no separation.

The problem with the general use of the word karma is that it's bullshit.

Your explanation seems better and has very little to do with what I hear people say.

1. A guy shoots someone and kills them.

2. 2 weeks later, he gets hit by a bus and dies.

Many will say, "That's karma for you".

Uhhh...no it isn't.

I pose this stuff to people at work that believe in karma and then I'll say

what if he never shot anyone?

They'll say, "Well they probably did something else then".:dry:

Saying that this guy died due to karma is purely comfort zone.

I have seen good shit happen to bad people and bad shit happen to good people (like death) to know that karma the way the general public uses it is utter bullshit.

When I pose the bad shit happening to a good person bit, karmic believers clam up cuz it doesn't fit their beliefs. That or they kick that "well they probably did something bad then".

:wacko:

[cullen7282]

Positive thoughts attract positive things. That's a fact. People how live their lives with joy usually enjoy better things than the others, who are always on the negative side. I don't know if that can be called Karma thought...

Perhaps setting yourself up? A negative person would say, "why bother, nothing i do is going to change anything anyhow" therefore they never put forth the effort to better their situation.

[j2k4]

Positive thoughts attract positive things. That's a fact. People how live their lives with joy usually enjoy better things than the others, who are always on the negative side. I don't know if that can be called Karma thought...

Perhaps setting yourself up? A negative person would say, "why bother, nothing i do is going to change anything anyhow" therefore they never put forth the effort to better their situation.

Oh, I don't know.

While I am aware of the ill-effects of a defeatist outlook, I've seen bad things happen to too many good people to agree that mere "positivity" locks one into a peaceful, fortuitous existence.

Do I believe that you get what you give?

By and large, yes...but there are exceptions, to be sure. :whistling

[Busyman™]

Perhaps setting yourself up? A negative person would say, "why bother, nothing i do is going to change anything anyhow" therefore they never put forth the effort to better their situation.

Oh, I don't know.

While I am aware of the ill-effects of a defeatist outlook, I've seen bad things happen to too many good people to agree that mere "positivity" locks one into a peaceful, fortuitous existence.

Do I believe that you get what you give?

By and large, yes...but there are exceptions, to be sure. :whistling

;)

....and basically the reason that those get what they give is because there is a direct/indirect correlation to their activities.

If you sell drugs and you deal with unsavory folk then you are more likely to get shot or thrown in jail.

If you help people a lot then they are more likely to remember your kindness and treat you favorably.

However, if you sell drugs but die on an Alaskan vacation cuz you fell through the ice, that ain't karma.

If you help people a lot and someone whom you never met saves you from the burning wreckage of a car, that ain't karma.

Many would have us believe that the negative and positive guy got what they deserved and I might be inclined to agree. However, I will not attribute it to karma since the drug dealer could be saved from the wreckage and Sir Help-A-Lot can fall through the ice and die.

Karma is bullshit and is spouted to influence people to be "good".

[Xix]

Well if you say so.