Lebanon, Israel, Palestine etc...what is needed?

[jimbo12345]

What is needed to stop all this kiling and hatred, from all of us?
Is it resolvable?
How? Why not?

(excuse me if i missed/added too many countries/groups...not soo clued up in such matters, and confuses the hell out of me.)

[tralalala]

Rationalism, and non-extremism. Case closed.


Unfortunately for us, the non-westerners seems to think extremism and violence is the ultimate solution for everything. I will probably get flamed for that statement, but this discussion has been discussed in the Drawing Room time and time again, and obviously I am not going to change my stance.

[lynx]

I totally agree, rational and non-extreme behaviour is a necessity before any solution can be achieved. Unfortunately, it is quite obvious that it is not only the non-westerners who act in this way. Nor is it helpful to brand all non-westerners as irrational and extremist, it leads to resentment.

It is not the only requirement, respect for democracy is of paramount importance, even if you don't agree with the wishes of the population.

Disapproval by the West of Communist regimes could not have been more evident for over 50 years, but with few exceptions that did not bring attempts of total trade restrictions; only in cases such as Cuba where the state was too feeble to do anything about it. The situation in Palestine is analogous. There's a simple term for that sort of action, it is called bullying.

There is little hope for a settlement while the Israel and the West believe they can carry out and condone such behaviour without any consequences.

[zapjb]

Some view this & other conflicts as delinated in George Orwell's book 1984. Written in 1948.

Basically the very rich trick the poor into doing their bidding.

An interesting read for those not familiar.

[Biggles]

One cannot espouse democracy and then bully people if they don't vote the way you want - be it Chile, Chechyna or Palestine. It only causes cynicism and grumpiness.

Of course one could simply round up all the Palestinians and ship them to Iraq but this might be a bit harsh.

There are no easy solutions when two people think they have an equally dominant claim to the same thing. In the end either one will be disappointed, the thing itself no longer worth having or a compromise is agreed.

[jimbo12345]

But, for the Jews and the Palestines (i think), Jerusalem is sometihng they both hold claim to. Neither will give it up due to its religious significance, quite rightly. So, sharing and coexistence needs to be sort. Living amongst one another.

I once had a crazy idea that they could build a massive land extension, like they did with that palm tree island in Dubai. Thus, some seperation and moderation, but some kind of sharing system for the important religious sites. They don't really want to kill each other, i believe, just want equality. Everyone gets land, they all get to do their religious thing. Naive i know, but like the Iraq sit, something drastic needs to be done.

I'm kind of pleased Tony Blair will work as an envoy for this area. Although, i do worry that his association with the US and UK will already have damaged his cred on all sides before he's even started. On the plus side, he won't give up.

[tralalala]

But, for the Jews and the Palestines (i think), Jerusalem is sometihng they both hold claim to. Neither will give it up due to its religious significance, quite rightly. So, sharing and coexistence needs to be sort. Living amongst one another.



Both sides claim hold on the whole of the land of Israel. Problem is, who got there first? It's like asking if the egg beat the chicken to it. If it were a type of who got there first thing, it then depends what time in history you pick - there was a time when King David ruled over many parts of Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. Then there were times the Jews only ruled small areas near Jerusalem. This is why people need to find some agreement where both sides will not necessarily be happy, but rather not pissed too much.

This is one of the great challenges of the past century.

[j2k4]

One cannot espouse democracy and then bully people if they don't vote the way you want...

It only causes grumpiness.

I was gonna say that. :huh:

Severe grumpiness. :yup:

[jimbo12345]

I tried reading a book about why the situation has gone on for so long...it was really confusing!

Give me the basics, why can't Israel and Palestine not be a whole coutry, living in the same place as each other?Just a multi-faith country...

I know the argument is fueled by a lot of outside interference, but i dont believe that anyone really wants to have death on their door steps.

[tralalala]

Because each side claims hold on the area. If it would be a multi-faith country as the Brits wished for 70 years ago, who would sit in government? Would it be a Muslim or Jewish government? Either side cannot afford this. Therefor, the Jews decided to try the 2 state solution, which the Arabs disagreed on.. Time and time again. Therefor the Jews took initiative and fought against the Arabs after the UN decided a Jewish state would be a good idea. We won that war, and all wars since. Fact. All because the Arabs can't give.. they only seem to want to take and take all, or nothing. So, this is the consequence of not being able to reach an agreement all them years ago.

[jimbo12345]

Ok. Can i ask if your Jewish Tralala? If you are, what answer would the Arabs have given to the same question above.

[PoOki]

The problem is that the Isareli goverment FEARS(!) the UN too much.
Israel are very (and too much) humanitarian to the arabs and they should not be!
The only way it will be solved is if Israel will respond to the arabs, they kill 5 Israelis in terror act, Israel will kill double of them. Thats only how it will work.
The terror organizations allows themselves too much, they want 1000 + Palestinians (war prisoners, some of them with blood on their hands) for 3(!) Israeli soldiers that they kidnaped.
Israel offered peace and live together many times but they, the Palestinians always wanted a war, which Israel never gave them. A war can be ended only with war.

[lynx]

The only way it will be solved is if Israel will respond to the arabs, they kill 5 Israelis in terror act, Israel will kill double of them. Thats only how it will work.Do you really think that reducing the ratio from 4:1 (over 7:1 in the case of children) down to 2:1 will solve the problem? :dry:

[bigboab]

The problem is that the Isareli goverment FEARS(!) the UN too much.
Israel are very (and too much) humanitarian to the arabs and they should not be!
The only way it will be solved is if Israel will respond to the arabs, they kill 5 Israelis in terror act, Israel will kill double of them. Thats only how it will work.
The terror organizations allows themselves too much, they want 1000 + Palestinians (war prisoners, some of them with blood on their hands) for 3(!) Israeli soldiers that they kidnaped.
Israel offered peace and live together many times but they, the Palestinians always wanted a war, which Israel never gave them. A war can be ended only with war.

If Israel fear the UN too much why do they possess nuclear weapons contrary to international and UN guidelines.

Why does the UN not place sanctions on Israel because they possess these nuclear weapons? Sorry I forgot the US Veto. On that subject why does the USA pump over 1Billion dollars every year to the state of Israel. Is this not funding State Terrorism by Israel. Before you throw your rattle out off the pram, if you bomb areas unnecessary then that is terrorism.

There are two sides to every argument, both sides think that they are in the right. As for killing Arabs by doubling the amount of Israelis killed or kidnapped, I thought that was already the case. It does not work.

I think that the only reasonable solution is to make Israel return to the original boundaries set up by the UN and that those boundaries be policed by the UN.

[tralalala]

@jimbo - Arabs would answer that question probably this way - The Jews stole our land, took this that and the others, fucked us, don't give us shit...
We are the ones that supply food, electricity and petrol to the Gaza strip... Sometimes I ask myself why. They are so ungraceful... It pisses me off sometimes. Se la vie I guess....


@lynx - I am guessing whoever wrote that is somewhat an Israeli right winger.. Right wing people here think violence. So do I sometimes, after a suicide bomber has gone and done his "duty for the virgins". Though honestly, the one way to find a walkway to a peaceful mid-east, is to silence the extremists, and get the people who actually wanna give it a chance the option to speak.

[SAM]

But, for the Jews and the Palestines (i think), Jerusalem is sometihng they both hold claim to. Neither will give it up due to its religious significance, quite rightly. So, sharing and coexistence needs to be sort. Living amongst one another.



Both sides claim hold on the whole of the land of Israel. Problem is, who got there first? It's like asking if the egg beat the chicken to it. If it were a type of who got there first thing, it then depends what time in history you pick - there was a time when King David ruled over many parts of Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. Then there were times the Jews only ruled small areas near Jerusalem. This is why people need to find some agreement where both sides will not necessarily be happy, but rather not pissed too much.

This is one of the great challenges of the past century.

well, when it comes to history king david never ruled egypt or any part of it
in fact egypt ruled Palestine in many parts of history
about "who came first" thingy
if we apply this method so i guess red indians have all the right to claim usa and slaughter all the americans who came from europe in the 15th century



Rationalism, and non-extremism. Case closed.


Unfortunately for us, the non-westerners seems to think extremism and violence is the ultimate solution for everything. I will probably get flamed for that statement, but this discussion has been discussed in the Drawing Room time and time again, and obviously I am not going to change my stance.
ok rationalism is good but when it comes from both sides .
non-extremism is great and really wanted by all of us but when u deny people the right to feed , choose who represents them and took all their land what else they can do otherthan fighting u .
and when u killed a kid because he through a stone at your tank what you want his father to do.
when you bomb a whole country because a small group in it sending a missile at un human territory in your country.
i guess we need to be rational and above all we need to be fair.