Trading and/or trading??? [Archive]

TheFoX

07-25-2007, 11:17 PM

Reading these threads has made me take a closer look at many FST members, and their motivations.

I have come to the conclusion that there are two types of FST members. Those that are genuine, and those that are not.

Invite trading is standard fare on this board, and most do it. The few that don't just give them away. This thread is NOT about invite trading.

What this thread is actually about, is account trading.

Is it right or is it wrong? This depends on the nature of the trade. I have noticed two types of trader on this board.

The one-off trader

This person has an account that they no longer need. They were probably a good member of the donor community, but have moved on, or found something else more to their liking.

Basically, this person now has an account that they no longer need, and rather than let it die, with it's buffer, wish for someone else to benefit from that account.

They will probably use that account as collateral for something they currently do not have.

This person has a genuine interest in releasing an old account and acquiring a new account, so that they can savour the wares.

The wheeler dealer trader

This is a person who's entire life seems to revolve around perpetual trading. They will acquire an account simply to use it for a further trade. They have no interest in the content of the trade, only that they have the trade.

Sometimes, these wheeler dealers will trade something they don't have, just to keep their names on the tips of everyone's tounges.

These people I understand the least. Most of us are here to fileshare, or to further our filesharing by acquiring new sources. For the wheeler dealer, filesharing takes a distant second place to account trading.

These people do filesharing more harm than good, trading indescriminately, without thought to the people who actually care.

The second type, wheeler dealer, is on the increase within these forums. Only recently, I have read several threads all started by one single member, offering accounts with buffers for trade. I wonder if the accounts actually exist. Also the winners of these so called giveaways (trades?) are unknowns on this forum.

I don't say this lightly. When reading threads here, you get to know who the contributors are (fstrulz, skizo, JA, saulin, frize etc. etc. etc.). Even if you have never seen a name before, you can still see their stats, such as join date and how many posts they have made. Strange then that a lot of giveaway winners are n00bs who have joined within the last few days of the giveaway.

There are a lot of genuine members here, who offer invites and accounts without malice, yet there is a growing trend among the few to be deceitful to their peers.

Personally, the wheeler dealer account trader is a waste of space, and they are taking up valuable accounts that genuine member would put to better use. Also, they are profiteering from account trading, in an environment where we are supposed to share for free.

weenden

07-25-2007, 11:22 PM

ive allways say invites are meant to be given and i got a acc once and i felt funny using it dunno why ...also you bring alot of good observations

Enlightened

07-25-2007, 11:28 PM

Aaaagh !! The Ehics of a Torrents Trader In a Nutshell.
I don't think U can "pin" me Down on any "Category", I think I fall into all of them.

But , hey, good job on the Research Paper, I will give U a "A" + for the Observation. Bravo

mbucari1

07-25-2007, 11:28 PM

Brilliant and well articulated observation :). I have to agree with you on almost everything you have written. I have been thinking this for the past few months, but finally someone has put it all together into a neat little memo.

It's sad that these "wheeler dealers" have come to dominate this board. I come here every day and see the same old threads posted by many different users.

And now there is a new trend. The obnoxious multiple threads for 1 trade. A user will make 3 or 4 threads just to advertise their trade.

DohMein

07-25-2007, 11:32 PM

Well to be honest it turns my stomach how some of the folks in here act. I cant understand how they can screw someone over to get a tracker. If you cant get it with being legit then what good is it. I have seen some people do the shadiest things and then the next week walk away with a high level tracker account or invite with no problem. I am baffled.

I came here to learn about more trackers, in that time there is two I wanted to go for, one I realized I did not want anymore after reading in the WIAW and the other I will still try for and hope. It is very hard to want to take part with so many people who are what I would call scum lurking around, some are not so obvious about it while others are blatantly full of it and they still get things they need only to trade it ...... Hopefully one day I will earn my spot I want and be able to use the board for other things than having to wade through the obvious bs posts in the invite section.

I realize my chances are slim now on getting what I want but I wont give up, I am a good user and I will be able to prove it one day on that tracker.

Ultramorpg

07-25-2007, 11:37 PM

You forgot type 3: This type of guy has a massive amount of spare time and only tends to write gigantic threads to talk about ethics in an un-ethical activity forum :w00t:

j/k the truth is that I have to agree with you, it's true that there are people that just turn trading into some kind of sick hobby, and that doesn't benefit the bittorrent private community at all

Enlightened

07-25-2007, 11:39 PM

Well to be honest it turns my stomach how some of the folks in here act. I cant understand how they can screw someone over to get a tracker. If you cant get it with being legit then what good is it. I have seen some people do the shadiest things and then the next week walk away with a high level tracker account or invite with no problem. I am baffled.

I came here to learn about more trackers, in that time there is two I wanted to go for, one I realized I did not want anymore after reading in the WIAW and the other I will still try for and hope. It is very hard to want to take part with so many people who are what I would call scum lurking around, some are not so obvious about it while others are blatantly full of it and they still get things they need only to trade it ...... Hopefully one day I will earn my spot I want and be able to use the board for other things than having to wade through the obvious bs posts in the invite section.

There is really a "Dichotomy" [ hope I spelled it right]
First, U have the WIAW in the stickty - Isn't that like a "Benchmark" for Trading?
And FST, is a Breding Ground for MOST Traders....... shit, I learnt all my Trading "Techniques" here @ FST
So, i think there should be a Balance betewen "Traders" and " Givers"
And ATM, The Invite Section has not "achieve" that yet.

ceasar

07-25-2007, 11:43 PM

DV8type

07-25-2007, 11:45 PM

Very well spoken essay.

Sometimes, these wheeler dealers will trade something they don't have, just to keep their names on the tips of everyone's tounges.
:yup:

fstrulz

07-25-2007, 11:50 PM

I don't say this lightly. When reading threads here, you get to know who the contributors are (fstrulz, skizo, JA, saulin, frize etc. etc. etc.). Even if you have never seen a name before, you can still see their stats, such as join date and how many posts they have made. Strange then that a lot of giveaway winners are n00bs who have joined within the last few days of the giveaway.

$#!+ I'm one of the top contributors. :P

Well the main reason I giveaway invites/accounts is to help new members here in FST, that's why my main priority is always the n00bs. It obviously wouldn't make sense if I give my invites/accounts away to regular or veteran FST members who already have everything... The biggest giveaway I've done so far was the SCN 300GB Account Giveaway (http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/f-bittorrent-invites-90/t-s-c-n-300gb-account-giveaway-207328), which I ended up giving to napster5 (http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/members/napster5-163735), simply because he had the best ratio proofs.

Also, the Invites section isn't only about account trading... It's a combination of free giveaways and accounts and invites trading - and if you take one of those 3 away, I think this section wouldn't be as active and productive as it is right now.

DefX

07-25-2007, 11:54 PM

Very astute observation. I'm moving this thread to the Main BT section as I'd hate for it to get lost among the sea of invite threads in the invite section.

/moved

sear

07-26-2007, 12:31 AM

@TheFoX: you make a good point there has been talk of this for some time on FST but never spelled out in such a clear way. These wheeler dealers [or as I think of them trading addicts] are the main reason people like to talk shit about the BT section. http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/f-lounge-10/t-is-invite-section-your-friend-210432

As previously said there are all types of people that hang around the bt and bt/invites sections and it makes an interesting mix. since I've been on FST I've met some realy generous people so we shouldn't generalise too much. Even the addicts have their place and they contribute by making the board a more lively and interesting place to visit.

TheFoX

07-26-2007, 02:29 AM

Dividing world on just two parts: black and white is instantly wrong. Though I agree with two categories that you mentioned: one-off trader and wheeler dealer, but to lock the options on these two only will be a lie. Why do this, go ahead and write a review on other 8-10 categories. By eliminating the others you can just create the situation we against them. I agree with the thoughts about these two groups and main idea is good, but requires further development. Also it's posted in wrong section I guess, recommend 1 up ;)

Your right in your observation, of course. Think of the two categories as either ends of a scale, and that trading can fit anywhere between those two end points, and you have your various degrees of wheeler dealership.

Your other point about being posted in the wrong section has been handled by a staff member, but I suppose the reason for posting in the Invite area was because it was something I wanted to air in relation to that very section. Having the thread in this section will certainly allow it to be read by a wider audience, some of which will not have access to the Invite section, and who probably are unaware of the shenanigans currently going on in that section at the moment.

It's good to see such a positive response. I was concerned that there would be numerous txt tlk posts of a negative nature. Just goes to show that the majority of people here do think before responding, and that it is a small minority who engage their fingers before their brains.

You forgot type 3: This type of guy has a massive amount of spare time and only tends to write gigantic threads to talk about ethics in an un-ethical activity forum :w00t:

j/k the truth is that I have to agree with you, it's true that there are people that just turn trading into some kind of sick hobby, and that doesn't benefit the bittorrent private community at all

I almost fit into type 3. I do write gigantic posts, but don't have all the time in the world. :cry:

Those here who know me, also know that my own time is limited, what with the various projects I am currently working on (coding), but I always make time to read the forums where I am subscribed to, and respond when I feel the need.

You wouldn't believe how many staff jobs I've turned down. Burning the candle at boths ends catches up with you, but trying to burn the candle in the middle as well is down right suicidal, if you ask me.

Still, I enjoy a good debate, and if it helps improve a place, then it hasn't been in vain.

SpiderPig

07-26-2007, 02:37 AM

When reading threads here, you get to know who the contributors are (fstrulz, skizo, JA, saulin, frize etc. etc. etc.)

You have GOT to be joking! :huh: :frusty: No bigger traders than ftnrulz and Alba back in the early months of this year. They were the REAL or, shall I say, the patriarchs, of perpetual "wheeler dealer" trading.

----------------------------------------

Traders suck donkey
After some deliberation, buffered accounts should not be given away, invites are the way to go.
You forgot the Types who do fake giveaways
You also forgot the Types who do giveaways just for the meaningless "rep" points
Oh, and then scam other members when trading because they have a "high rep point."

Skiz

07-26-2007, 03:32 AM

07-26-2007, 08:14 AM

Im a Wheel Dealer. Woohooo. =] Im also good at what i do. Only been banned by a few Sysop, thats coz i pissed em off a lil =]

saulin

07-26-2007, 08:24 AM

I just gave away a bunch of accounts. Accounts that I don't use. I will offer them to people that might use them under the condition that they will not use them for trading purposes.

I do believe that account trading is simply wrong. Invites are given to users so they can invite good users that will contribute to the tracker. Invites are not meant to be traded. Account trading is wrong because you either want something for an account you don't use or need or simply you got the account by trading to get more accounts. People that usually trade accounts imo are those that just like to leech and want some buffer to do just that or want to get invites quick to trade them for other invites or accounts. This just goes against what bitorrent is about.

KSA

07-26-2007, 08:59 AM

Those kind of traders are a big shame for the whole BT communities, i mean those who just get invites for trading purpose, in fact they ruin it on other good members those really need these invites for their personal use.

Is there any way to control these quibble people?

iNSOMNiA

07-26-2007, 09:30 AM

Actually I don't think you get the whole picture yet and like Skiz i'm not sure to totally understand what you meant to say in that paragraph.

You raised some interesting points tho. B-

Beenieman

07-26-2007, 10:36 AM

I hate wheeler dealers! Well ok I don't hate them but they do seem to make life hard for the honest people who just want to get a head start up the ladder. I've been here 8 weeks or more and I've enjoyed the experiance, if anything its entertaining watching these "fake" givaways and you learn who to trust and not trust real fast.

Trading is something that won't go away, I sometimes think it hurts the noobs but then maybe it dont.. because theres always someone who will genuinly give something away and it makes things balanced. I'm one of the lucky ones, I was given what I wanted by just being myself.

TheFoX

07-26-2007, 11:43 AM

I don't say this lightly. When reading threads here, you get to know who the contributors are (fstrulz, skizo, JA, saulin, frize etc. etc. etc.). Even if you have never seen a name before, you can still see their stats, such as join date and how many posts they have made. Strange then that a lot of giveaway winners are n00bs who have joined within the last few days of the giveaway.I don't understand this paragraph at all.

You don't take what lightly? :unsure:

The prior paragraph gives no hint to its meaning and it doesn't lead in to the following sentences.

"contributors" to what? Giveaways, trading, etc..... :idunno:

Contributing to the forums here. People who add material on a day to day basis.

I am not making any assertions about their trading habits (they could be one off or wheeler dealers). I am making an assertion about their contributions to the forums here.

What I am referring to, in that paragraph, is the competitions/giveaways where someone makes a thread whereby they state that they have an account to give to one lucky person. Everyone who posts in that thread then asks to be considered for this giveaway. Ironically, the lucky winner seems to be someone who is new. With all the long termers here, you'd think that an account would be given to someone of some standing at FST, and not to a new account.

In that paragraph, I make no comment about anyones' trading status.

phrenzy

07-26-2007, 11:49 AM

FST rules state : Don't trade accounts at FST for sites that strictly forbid it.Far as I know EVERY site doesn't want there accounts traded. Why is this rule NEVER enforced...

iNSOMNiA

07-26-2007, 12:41 PM

This rule does apply for site like WB or FSC that regularly gives invites to our fellows FST users

phrenzy

07-26-2007, 12:46 PM

This rule does apply for site like WB or FSC that regularly gives invites to our fellows FST users

Not so much WB , but i see fsc traded here....

Roark

07-26-2007, 01:56 PM

Nice, I hadn't noticed that bit about giveaways till you pointed it out.

But to be honest, I don't understand the motivations of a lot of people involved in filesharing. Certainly, I don't understand the traders who trade for the sake of it, but I also don't understand why uploaders risk their axx and spend hundreds, or in some cases thousands of dollars a month for servers, don't understand site staff who spend dozens of hours a week on their sites and do nothing but complain about the users in the forums, don't understand users who donate large amounts to sites (>$50/month) instead of spending the money on servers, or, god forbid, actually buying the material they're downloading ... the list goes on. "Wheeler-dealers" are just one mystery of many.

iNSOMNiA

07-26-2007, 03:01 PM

Not so much WB , but i see fsc traded here....
I'm not sure what trackers we have a deal with but if an account is caught trading the thread will most likely be trashed/locked but invites are still trade-able

Angrod

07-26-2007, 04:16 PM

FST rules state : Don't trade accounts at FST for sites that strictly forbid it.Far as I know EVERY site doesn't want there accounts traded. Why is this rule NEVER enforced...

Many dont allow trading invite.

KevinGarnet

07-26-2007, 05:24 PM

mhm.. brilliant essay.. but i think trading acc is really dangerous because it isn't allowed.. actually invites trading is safer and i prefer invites tradings.. acc tradings are against the rules.. FST rules forbid that..

ghurka

07-26-2007, 07:30 PM

The FST rules state

Trading Accounts

* Don't trade accounts at FST for sites that strictly forbid it.
* If you do they may contact you here to follow their rules.

Read the rules of the sites your a member at and if you choose
to break them dont complain if action is taken against you. So is this an actual rule or simply a suggestion for your own protection.

Almost all trackers have a user agreement that states

RESTRICTED ACCESS: This End User License Agreement ("User Agreement") grants you, personally and individually, a non-transferable, non-exclusive, non-sublicensable, limited license, permitting access only for the use of immediately electronically displaying content retrieved from this website....

So effectively you are breaking the user agreement of that tracker if you give away or trade that account. As this seems to be a standard user agreement is it not time that all account trading was stamped out here.

sear

07-26-2007, 08:29 PM

I agree that account trading is a bit of a problem as it stops people being able to get accounts they actually want to use instead of building up a huge buffer so they can trade it away (which in itself is bad for members of the site because it stops them from being able to upload enough to build their ratio).

However in all fairness I myself have benefited from duplicate accounts with some extermly nice person giving me an account with a decent buffer out of the kindness of ther heart.

Zeus

07-26-2007, 10:07 PM

So effectively you are breaking the user agreement of that tracker if you give away or trade that account. As this seems to be a standard user agreement is it not time that all account trading was stamped out here.
Given that most people use trackers to download huge amounts of copyright material, the last thing the average user is going to be concerned about is possibly breaking the trackers EULA. In any case, enforcement isn't really a matter for FST. Trading accounts is not something I would personally do, but I don't see why FST shouldn't allow it.

TheFoX

07-26-2007, 11:54 PM

To add another dimension to the debate, take on board the following scenario.

As an FST member, you have a few invites issued to you from your favourite torrent community. You make a giveaway post in the Torrent Invites section, and select someone you think will respect that invite.

A month later, you log in to your favourite torrent community, only to discover that you have been disabled. On enquiring in their IRC channel, you are told that your invitee was caught trading the account to a third party, and that they, and you, were disabled to discourage that sort of behaviour (re: The Rabbit).

The person who trades an account not only puts them self at risk, but also their inviter (not all community will hold the inviter responsible, but there are still a number of communities that do). This means that someone can genuinely lose their account because they misread someone else's character.

Now, because so many people have lost their accounts due to actions of account traders (re: The Rabbit), people are now apprehensive about handing out invites to virtual strangers, just in case that stranger abuses the trust shown in them. This means that account trading will increase, because the number of invites being offered has reduced.

It's the law of economics, unfortunately. People want a specific community, and if they cannot acquire an invite, then they will accept an account instead. Account trader thrive on this economy, and will use it to their advantage. More accounts will be disabled, meaning genuine invites will dwindle.

It is a vicious circle.

saulin

07-27-2007, 12:34 AM

Good point TheFox. However most traders do trade because they get a kick out of it and not because the lack of invites. The biggest traders already have most trackers. People give invite for rare trackers to those they feel are worth to be invited.

The problem with free invites is that even n00bs that have less than 10 posts want FTN or some high level tracker.

The reality is that even n00bs can get the best trackers as free invites. The problem is that most new people just start asking and asking for free invites and don't even contribute to this community in anyway. For example a lot of those with so few posts. Of course they won't get much and then they try trading and next thing you know they are all talking about this rarity levels because they think is the only way to get good trackers.

Probably the best trackers are not the rarest ones. TL has been conpared to Sct and FTN and they are in totally different rarity levels. Oink has been said to be better than Exigo and they are in a totally different rarity level.

Trading is not always done because the lack of invites, it is mostly because of the rarity rating. Is mainly because people don't realize which trackers are really the best.

If each tracker would have a proper review according to how good the tracker is then people would apreciate a lot of trackers more and traders would not get away with insane traders like. 5 accounts for 1 invite.

I think this thread was started to figure out why people trade right? Well I think the main reason is because of the rarity rating system that exist here at FST. Even the guy selling a ScT invite on Ebay has the rarity chart posted in the description.

sear

07-27-2007, 03:31 AM

I think this thread was started to figure out why people trade right? Well I think the main reason is because of the rarity rating system that exist here at FST. Even the guy selling a ScT invite on Ebay has the rarity chart posted in the description.

What you say is largely true though I don't think it's fair to blame it on FST's rating system. People were trading long before that was designed and will continue to trade accounts and invites as long as there are private communities they want to get into (whether torrent or otherwise) though I would agree it seems to be going out of control at the moment.

I went on a holiday for about 8 months which is why I haven't been around the board for a while and before I left there was trading but it didn't seem to be an issue and you hardly ever saw accounts for trade. In fact i can remember that was frowned upon because it is against the rules. so I can say looking at it with fresh eyes it seems the trading has stepped up a notch.

But it's not all bad because there are also a lot more giveaways atm then there used to be and the invite section is certainly a livelier place which without the scammers and the trading addicts it wouldn't be. I think it's just all part of the mix here at FST. Besides it's funny to see how desperate and scammy people get for certain trackers. It's like drugs I can't even count the amount of times I've read please please please I need it :lol:

The_Martinator

06-18-2009, 12:08 PM

Well, sorry for the 2 year bump, but I find this thread interesting. Obviously most people thought that trading was OK back then and that I expected.

What I did not expect were such discussions (in some ways I'm a n00b still, I wasn't even on public trackers in July 2007, I think, lol). The OP basically says that ''The one-off trader'' is a dying breed and that wheeler dealer traders (lol at the name) are becoming more and more frequent and that he doesn't like them.

Here's the funny thing: I think that wheeler dealers are all that is left in trading. The smart people have commuted to invite GAs (the smartest to private ones). All that is left are such ''level hunters''.

This thread makes me understand why this forum allowed trading then and it yet again proves to me that it souldn't allow it anymore.

PS: Right now I wouldn't trade, but I can't really say what I would have done if I joined back then. With the knowledge I have now I'm sure I wouldn't trade even then.

TP635

06-18-2009, 01:25 PM

cinephilia

06-18-2009, 01:42 PM

as long as the bump is not useless, i don't see any reason to lock a old thread...

The_Martinator

06-18-2009, 02:14 PM

If you find it of interest, well and good, but why don't you open up and new thread while pointing to this thread as reference. Not many people have the habit of looking at the OP date when reading a thread.
May be Mod should start locking all the old threads

You have a point. However I have started a number of threads and a few times a certain mod said he doesn't understand what good came from me starting it or something similar. So this way I'm being shielded by the original OP, lol.

Thanks for the support, cine.

Both of you didn't comment on the contents of the thread, though. :P

cinephilia

06-18-2009, 02:26 PM

all have been said :(

Jezebel

06-18-2009, 02:51 PM

all have been said :(
All has been said long time ago already.
Yet trader related discussions pop up every once in a while being repeated what has been said years ago.
It just goes on and on again. :lol:

TheFoX

06-20-2009, 09:18 PM

If more people recycled old threads instead of creating new ones, then this forum would be much more manageable (10 threads instead of the 18,980 we currently have), especially since so many of those 18.980 more or less cover the same subjects.

NippleCake

06-20-2009, 09:39 PM

Not that i am a trader, but i was thinking about this a minute ago: say two very well "trusted" torrenters decided to trade with each other, that is, invites, not accounts. It would not be bad for trackers as

-it is not any old retard being invited
-they are very unlikely to cheat
-very low chance they will be a security risk

the only thing the tracker would have a prooblem with would be that their invites were used a commodity right?

n00bz0r

06-21-2009, 12:56 AM

tradzing is tradzing
whats eef d older trustphul member desidez two sell eet in da markit next tyme (maibe 2 ur frienly neyborhood RYAA RETARD) coz it may yield a better return for his "asset"?

sez

06-21-2009, 01:41 AM

This kind of discussions should be put together with religion and politics as no go ish topics,especially on this board,traders who actually trade in public(not pm traders who pose as non-traders) barely care to post in such threads these days and the people who post are usually agreeing,so in essence the thread ends up being a thread full of repetitive rants.

Trading is wrong ok?,same as doing dope isn't right and is very much frowned upon by society but as it also turns out,a good number of straight out crack heads have been known to make music that went global multi platinum while under the influence.Music very much appreciated by society.

So to some people the ends justifies the means and to some the viceversa sounds more like it.Demonizing people just cause of this difference in opinion,to me isn't right,you aren't helping in anything.Me and a good number of friends a' mine stopped attending church coz the preacher just couldn't stop talking about hell and fire,he was so into this gospel of doom that he completely forgot who his audience was and eventually it ended up having the reverse effect of what he thought he was going to achieve.I have heard of reformed traders but as much as i like to think of it as a myth i like to keep an open mind and say maybe less of these bash threads could be part of the solution.

TheFoX

06-21-2009, 04:55 PM

This kind of discussions should be put together with religion and politics as no go ish topics

I'm not knocking your opinion, but how many people have died as a result of a difference of opinion about trading?

One of the reasons that discussion about Religion or Politics is such a taboo, is that there is always a suicide bomber or extremist who takes offence at some one else's viewpoint.

The main difference between an extremist and a moderate is that an extremist would have told you to shut the fuck up, whereas a moderate would have accepted that your opinion differs from his.