View Full Version : Euthanasia
denis123
07-04-2003, 10:53 PM
I hope I have spelt it right. I wonder what the members feel about this?
MagicNakor
07-04-2003, 11:28 PM
Euthanasia for what? Plants? Fish? Cattle? ;) How about sharing your views first? That's more likely to get a response. Otherwise we'll have to bring Mike Myers in here, to discuss. Beware, though. He may get a little verklempt.
:ninja:
for it. i did a final debate for this in philosphy class last year.
Rat Faced
07-04-2003, 11:35 PM
If putting an animal down because it is in pain is a kindness, then letting someone take their own life cannot be seen as anything less.
Oh god, this is gonna turn into another emotive one isnt it? :(
thewizeard
07-04-2003, 11:57 PM
There is a chance Rat faced. But it as least something male and female can discuss; abortion is only practised on women. In the abortion debate I think it was mainly male views that were voiced, that was a pity. I live in the Netherlands where an euthanasia law was recently introduced. Should euthanasia then only be offered to the terminaly sick? What about assisted suicide?
hobbes
07-05-2003, 01:01 AM
Absolutely.
Editted out the whole post, as it might be very difficult for people to read. The bottom line was, "absolutely".
Somebody pass me those pills!!!!! :ph34r: :blink: :unsure: :ph34r:
billyfridge
07-05-2003, 10:54 PM
a good percentage of animals are put down because an operation would be expensive. who's to say it wouldn't happen with humans? i do believe in
euthanasia, provided a panel of responsible people were to to weigh the pro's
and cons. and members of the bleeding hearts brigade were kept out. :(
Skweeky
07-06-2003, 02:49 PM
It's simple IMO. If you truly want to die, then the opportunity to die as humane as possible should be offered to you whatever the reason for your deathwish may be.
This may sound a bit harsh, but what is wrong with letting people die who can only survive because of high advanced medical help. We're keeping people alive who spend their life as a plant....I'm not sure if that is as humane as we like to think it is.
clocker
07-06-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by billyfridge@5 July 2003 - 16:54
i do believe in
euthanasia, provided a panel of responsible people were to to weigh the pro's
and cons. and members of the bleeding hearts brigade were kept out. :(
This attitude seems like fencesitting of the most advanced order.
I saw some similar replies in the (now regrettably locked) abortion thread.
Either topic seems to me to be a highly personal decision.
Either you believe that a person has the right to make that decision or they don't.
In both cases- I do.
Leave the committees, panels, other 'responsible' people out of it.
Illuminati
07-06-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by clocker+6 July 2003 - 16:08--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 6 July 2003 - 16:08)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-billyfridge@5 July 2003 - 16:54
i do believe in
euthanasia, provided a panel of responsible people were to to weigh the pro's
and cons. and members of the bleeding hearts brigade were kept out. :(
This attitude seems like fencesitting of the most advanced order.
I saw some similar replies in the (now regrettably locked) abortion thread.
Either topic seems to me to be a highly personal decision.
Either you believe that a person has the right to make that decision or they don't.
In both cases- I do.
Leave the committees, panels, other 'responsible' people out of it. [/b][/quote]
Ditto - The choice of euthanasia should only be given to the person who the choice is about.
Maybe I'm being harsh, but I seriously question the interests of those who have nothing to do with a terminal person yet feel that they have a duty to be fully against the choice. <_<
Neil__
07-06-2003, 05:26 PM
I think the only person to decide this issue is someone who is dying.
So I have to leave it up to them and as that means some people will chose to commit suicide then I am in faviour of if it being made legal.
The dilema to me is how do you administer control over the process.
Neil.
Edit grammar
For it, but I believe those who "help" (a`la Kevorkian) should not be doctors. Train people, create a new "profession", whatever, but observe the Hypocratic Oath (First, do no harm...); the medical profession doesn't need to compromise it's integrity on this specific issue-they've got enough other "image" problems.
Neil__
07-06-2003, 07:50 PM
For it, but I believe those who "help" (a`la Kevorkian) should not be doctors. Train people, create a new "profession", whatever, but observe the Hypocratic Oath (First, do no harm...); the medical profession doesn't need to compromise it's integrity on this specific issue-they've got enough other "image" problems.
[/QUOTE][QUOTE]
Exactly "Do no harm" does also include "Quality of life"
I have made my decision
If i need to chose to die I will. even if I have to go abroad.
But I still stand by my decision about legality even though im biased.
Even if it is a brand new Proffesion ans long as it doesn't becom an industry
Make the laws in advance then?
I want the right to chose the means of my death.
If I have to.
And that's all.
nothing more.
Neil.
edit P.S. can I have a "unplug me" clause in my will.
Neil__
07-06-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Illuminati+6 July 2003 - 16:14--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Illuminati @ 6 July 2003 - 16:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by clocker@6 July 2003 - 16:08
<!--QuoteBegin-billyfridge@5 July 2003 - 16:54
i do believe in
euthanasia, provided a panel of responsible people were to to weigh the pro's
and cons. and members of the bleeding hearts brigade were kept out. :(
This attitude seems like fencesitting of the most advanced order.
I saw some similar replies in the (now regrettably locked) abortion thread.
Either topic seems to me to be a highly personal decision.
Either you believe that a person has the right to make that decision or they don't.
In both cases- I do.
Leave the committees, panels, other 'responsible' people out of it.
Ditto - The choice of euthanasia should only be given to the person who the choice is about.
Maybe I'm being harsh, but I seriously question the interests of those who have nothing to do with a terminal person yet feel that they have a duty to be fully against the choice. <_< [/b][/quote]
Let alone being terminally ill themselves.
Neil
Originally posted by Neil__@6 July 2003 - 14:50
edit P.S. can I have a "unplug me" clause in my will.
That wouldn't do much good, Neil.
You can have such a wish honored should you become incapacitated; there are various mechanisms for achieving this wish.
Regretfully, I think to make any of them stick, you'd need to consult a lawyer.
Neil__
07-06-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by j2k4+6 July 2003 - 21:00--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 6 July 2003 - 21:00)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Neil__@6 July 2003 - 14:50
edit P.S. can I have a "unplug me" clause in my will.
That wouldn't do much good, Neil.
You can have such wish honored should you become incapacitated; there are various mechanisms for achieving this wish.
Regretfully, I think to make any of them stick, you'd need to consult a lawyer. [/b][/quote]
Dont get me wrong I only ask for a coppout clause because thats my right.
my country has the right to ask me if I am prepared to die for it and I will make my decision if needed.
but if I have the right to die for my country.
why cant I have the right to die if I chose.
Neil.
Wolverine
07-06-2003, 11:15 PM
I agree with Neil. IMO I believe that I have the right to my own life, and for anyone to tell me that I don't...well, tough :)
Originally posted by Neil__+6 July 2003 - 15:09--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Neil__ @ 6 July 2003 - 15:09)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by j2k4@6 July 2003 - 21:00
<!--QuoteBegin-Neil__@6 July 2003 - 14:50
edit P.S. can I have a "unplug me" clause in my will.
That wouldn't do much good, Neil.
You can have such wish honored should you become incapacitated; there are various mechanisms for achieving this wish.
Regretfully, I think to make any of them stick, you'd need to consult a lawyer.
Dont get me wrong I only ask for a coppout clause because thats my right.
my country has the right to ask me if I am prepared to die for it and I will make my decision if needed.
but if I have the right to die for my country.
why cant I have the right to die if I chose.
Neil.[/b][/quote]
Neil-
An "unplug me" clause would do you no good if it were in your will, you see?
If you're dead enough to need a will, you're too dead to require unplugging.
Neil__
07-07-2003, 01:34 AM
Then look at it like a prenup but for wills
read that bit when the shit happens and read the rest when my plugs have been pulled.
Neil
thewizeard
07-07-2003, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by j2k4@7 July 2003 - 00:43
Neil-
An "unplug me" clause would do you no good if it were in your will, you see?
If you're dead enough to need a will, you're too dead to require unplugging.
Indeed it would be to late.
Your wish to emigrate to the Netherlands would solve all your problems.
You could be euthanised within a month of arriving.
Illuminati
07-07-2003, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by j2k4+7 July 2003 - 01:43--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 7 July 2003 - 01:43)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Neil__@6 July 2003 - 15:09
Originally posted by j2k4@6 July 2003 - 21:00
<!--QuoteBegin-Neil__@6 July 2003 - 14:50
edit P.S. can I have a "unplug me" clause in my will.
That wouldn't do much good, Neil.
You can have such wish honored should you become incapacitated; there are various mechanisms for achieving this wish.
Regretfully, I think to make any of them stick, you'd need to consult a lawyer.
Dont get me wrong I only ask for a coppout clause because thats my right.
my country has the right to ask me if I am prepared to die for it and I will make my decision if needed.
but if I have the right to die for my country.
why cant I have the right to die if I chose.
Neil.
Neil-
An "unplug me" clause would do you no good if it were in your will, you see?
If you're dead enough to need a will, you're too dead to require unplugging. [/b][/quote]
Not sure about in the US, but in the UK there's something known as a 'living will'. These contain what you want happening to you should you become incapacitated - Most obvious example is medical treatment.
Of course you have to do this with your GP and/or lawyer (can't remember which)
The "living will" exists here also.
denis123
07-08-2003, 07:00 AM
In, I believe Switserland, there is a clinic for assisted suicide. There doesn't need to be any medical necessity. Is it wrong to want to opt out?
I'm all for it, but the one thing i think that needs to be discussed is the state of mind that a person is in when choosing to die. I'm having a little trouble expressing what i want to say, but basically I think its important to consider the fact that someone who is in pain may become mentally unbalanced and make a rash decision. I am pretty much against automatic permission for euthanasia for specific medical problems, I would instead make reasonably extensive counselling/psychiatric evaluation a requirement (except in cases where this would be impossible)
MagicNakor
07-08-2003, 08:26 AM
There is, however, the cases of terminal illness, where the person in question could easily be of sound mind for a number of years. Various forms of cancer, HIV/AIDS, and Alzhiemer's come to mind right off. The latter puts the family and friends of the afflicted through terrible anguish; I cannot imagine what it would be like for one so afflicted.
:ninja:
True, with the illnesses mentioned above there would be nothing medically causing mental instability, but I was pointing out that just because theres nothing 'going wrong' in their brain doesn't mean they are sound of mind. People may have trouble coming to terms with these illnesses and IMO should be required to spend some time discussing their situation with somebody who is capable of understanding and counselling them before they are legally allowed to commit suicide.
TheDave
07-08-2003, 09:15 AM
if i was completely retarded, id wanna die
nothing against em, but i wouldnt want to be a burden
Originally posted by TheDave@8 July 2003 - 04:15
if i was completely retarded, id wanna die
nothing against em, but i wouldnt want to be a burden
Dave-you sound so pessimistic! Cheer up. :)
I think consideration ought to be given the fact euthanasia is not (aside from the possibility of nefarious intent) a movement with the potential to be so "popular" as to become "out of control"; it would be self-regulating in that respect, yes?
Neil__
07-09-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by TheDave@8 July 2003 - 10:15
if i was completely retarded, id wanna die
nothing against em, but i wouldnt want to be a burden
If you were that retarded then would you notice.
J2k4
I doubt the human race will rush to death like lemmings
but if it does then self regulation is already here.
I have the right to take my life now.
Why wait for the Beaurocrats we only need them for "getting help to die".
Neil
clintonesque
07-09-2003, 04:32 PM
Euthanasia : For it, but again only by a hair...you know which one.
The medical profession has no business ending life, conversely they have no business prolonging the inevitability of death as to leave one a rotting undignified corps in some hospital bed.
(wich by the way happens quite regularly in our wonderfull Heath care sytem).
Physicians end life quite regularly when they take people off ventilators.
They also make decisions in the ER as to whether or not to resuscitate.
But alas, most of these people are not around to argue to the contrary.
They may be veggies.
All these decisions are based on personal experiency skill, and (the big one) circumstance. Their decisions are not always the right ones.
The concious individual is a very different matter. You need a set of circumstances
in a controled environment with the right set of medical problems and a firm understanding of them.
You need a great deal of consensus among patient, family, and of course physician.
Ending a life should never be taken lightly.
The Individual ultimately has the right to terminate his or her life whether you or I can accept/like, or lump it. What are you gonna do about it?
Very rarely is pain totally uncontrolable. 99 % of the time Pain is controlable to an exceptable degree, but it is that 1 % that we are refering to.
Had a stroke and can't speek or move your body or are cognitively impaired? you don't have hope in hell of making a decision for yourself without a living will, or a loved one who truly knows your hearts whishes.
So, my answer is yes doctors can take life to ease suffering, but you have to have the right set of circumstances and the consensus of a well informed patient & family. Responsible counseling for all involved and a search for alternatives.
Euthanasia has it's place, but "fuck" if politics don't always end up getting invoved.
Politics & religion are truly our doom.
Originally posted by Neil__@9 July 2003 - 08:23
J2k4
I doubt the human race will rush to death like lemmings
but if it does then self regulation is already here.
I have the right to take my life now.
Why wait for the Beaurocrats we only need them for "getting help to die".
Neil
I don't think I was saying that at all; just the opposite, in fact.
Your last is the operative condition: We have the ability to euthanize privately now-the only reasons I can think of to seek government sanction of this as a "right" would be to somehow retain the rights to life insurance proceeds (the "fraud" issue; a biggie) or to somehow get "right with God".
Never mind separation of Church and State, here; the legal system has been pimped for any number of causes to which it has no rightful entree.
clintonesque
07-09-2003, 06:28 PM
the legal system has been pimped for any number of causes to which it has no rightful entree.
I'll concur with that. Hell of an insurance mess.
Neil__
07-10-2003, 06:10 PM
j2k4
the insurance industry would have to rewrite it's contracts that true but I think they'll manage. they have several lifetimes history at tying things up in words.
Also the church has interfered in death far too much already for my liking
so I would prefer the impossible, and that is, they keep out.
can't imagine anything more endless than dragging the church into life issues.
Neil.
Originally posted by Neil__@10 July 2003 - 13:10
j2k4
the insurance industry would have to rewrite it's contracts that true but I think they'll manage. they have several lifetimes history at tying things up in words.
Also the church has interfered in death far too much already for my liking
so I would prefer the impossible, and that is, they keep out.
can't imagine anything more endless than dragging the church into life issues.
Neil.
You can't imagine anything more endless; the lawyers and solicitors can't imagine anything more lucrative.
An attorney is to a religion case as a mouse is to cheese.
They seek to set a precedent for religion impacting euthanasia; once this is achieved, it will be a part of every case to ever go to court, whether it actually exists or not.
Rat Faced
07-10-2003, 09:08 PM
If we could hang all the Lawyers, i'd change my mind Re: Capital Punishment
Neil__
07-10-2003, 09:16 PM
Lawyers are the king's of the endless argument
and their the only ones who could be arsed.
especially when there paid by the hour.
Neil
I run my jib pretty good and I write okay; I think I'll be a lawyer, too. ;) :ph34r:
Oh, fuck- :huh:
Forgot about conscience. :angry:
Oh, well..... :(
Neil__
07-10-2003, 09:45 PM
Conscience only counts up to £50k per year.
Or did I hear that while passing a law school.
Neil
Originally posted by TheDave@8 July 2003 - 10:15
if i was completely retarded, id wanna die
nothing against em, but i wouldnt want to be a burden
I think you need to visit a special needs school m8,just to observe the "retarded" and see if they wanna die.In my experience they seem to have an inner happiness that`s so easily disregarded when you`re caught up in the trials of everyday life.
They certainly don`t look like they wanna die..........like i said, just a personal observation ;)
cheers,
Bass
Neil__
07-11-2003, 10:03 AM
QUOTE (TheDave @ 8 July 2003 - 10:15)
if i was completely retarded, id wanna die
nothing against em, but i wouldnt want to be a burden
I think you need to visit a special needs school m8,just to observe the "retarded" and see if they wanna die.In my experience they seem to have an inner happiness that`s so easily disregarded when you`re caught up in the trials of everyday life.
They certainly don`t look like they wanna die..........like i said, just a personal observation
cheers,
Bass
Bass
I agree.
there seems to be a child like innocence and happiness.
which convinces me there is a real quality of life.
And thats the real issue.
Neil
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