Uk...

[Peerzy]

Help me settle an argument...

Is Wales and Scotland the same country as England?

Of course it's not, right? :unsure:

My girlfriend thinks a different country is only when it is abroad :wacko:

Shall i get rid of her :ermm:

[manicgeek]

No they are not.

Yes you should.

[Beenieman]

sheep shaggers ;)

[killer23]

Wales and Scotland are different countries, a clue is they have their own frikkin flags, and your girlfriend is stuuupid, get rid of ze bitch.

[Something Else]

If she's blonde then it's ok. Just give her a pat on the back and a strawberry milkshake ;)

[Beenieman]

Does she think Europe is one big country?

[killer23]

is she a man? :pinch::pinch::pinch:

[Squeamous]

Wales isn't actually a country, it's a principality and joined to England. Scotland is a different country. So she's half right.

[Mr JP Fugley]

Wales isn't actually a country, it's a principality and joined to England. Scotland is a different country. So she's half right.

:lol: I trust you are trying to wind up Welshmen.

[Squeamous]

The truth hurts :happy:

[Mr JP Fugley]

The truth hurts :happy:

It certainly can but the Principality of Wales hasn't existed for a long time.

[Squeamous]

To my knowledge it's still legally tied to England....do you know different?

[Mr JP Fugley]

To my knowledge it's still legally tied to England....do you know different?

What makes you think it's "tied to England" and indeed what do you mean by that.

There was a Principality of Wales but that was hundreds of years ago.

[ghurka]

The truth hurts :happy:So does having a lobotomy....but there again I'm not English so I wouldn't know :P

[Mr JP Fugley]

I know what it is, Wales has been ruled by the Monarch of Great Britain for years and by the UK Parliament, so you take that to mean England.

[Mr JP Fugley]

The truth hurts :happy:So does having a lobotomy....but there again I'm not English so I wouldn't know :P

Actually it doesn't but that's not important right now.

[Squeamous]

What makes you think it's "tied to England" and indeed what do you mean by that.

There was a Principality of Wales but that was hundreds of years ago.

Well, Wales has its own parliament but it still has to clear all decisions through London, it is still described as a principality, in fact Wiki describes it as being 'the biggest principality in the world' although it also calls it a country and we know how reliable Wiki is :rolleyes:. To my knowledge Wales has never been a 'state' in it's own right and still isn't. I'm willing to be corrected! So what makes you think it is a country then?

[Squeamous]

I know what it is, Wales has been ruled by the Monarch of Great Britain for years and by the UK Parliament, so you take that to mean England.

No, I mean it was merged with England in the 16th century and has never gained independence (I think). Hence why Wales isn't represented on the UK flag.

[Mr JP Fugley]

What makes you think it's "tied to England" and indeed what do you mean by that.

There was a Principality of Wales but that was hundreds of years ago.

Well, Wales has its own parliament but it still has to clear all decisions through London, it is still described as a principality, in fact Wiki describes it as being 'the biggest principality in the world' although it also calls it a country and we know how reliable Wiki is :rolleyes:. To my knowledge Wales has never been a 'state' in it's own right and still isn't. I'm willing to be corrected! So what makes you think it is a country then?

Who said it was a state. The two aren't analogous. The Vatican City is a state however I wouldn't describe it as a country.

Oh and Wales doesn't have a Parliament, I don't know what makes you think that.

I think it's really a matter for you to prove your contention that
Wales is not a Country, rather than for other people to prove it is.

[Mr JP Fugley]

I know what it is, Wales has been ruled by the Monarch of Great Britain for years and by the UK Parliament, so you take that to mean England.

No, I mean it was merged with England in the 16th century and has never gained independence (I think). Hence why Wales isn't represented on the UK flag.

If it was "merged" that would mean that England had never achieved it's independence either. I don't think we can accept that, can we.

[Squeamous]

[
Who said it was a state. The two aren't analogous. The Vatican City is a state however I wouldn't describe it as a country.

Oh and Wales doesn't have a Parliament, I don't know what makes you think that.

I think it's really a matter for you to prove your contention that
Wales is not a Country, rather than for other people to prove it is.

An assembly then...semantics ;). The fact still remains that it still has to clear it's decisions through London, and isn't completely independent of England. I've laid out my evidence.....now it's your turn.

[Squeamous]

If it was "merged" that would mean that England had never achieved it's independence either. I don't think we can accept that, can we.

It was absorbed by England. The result is that England is still a country but Wales is a principality of it. That's what I've always known the situation to be.

[Mr JP Fugley]

[
Who said it was a state. The two aren't analogous. The Vatican City is a state however I wouldn't describe it as a country.

Oh and Wales doesn't have a Parliament, I don't know what makes you think that.

I think it's really a matter for you to prove your contention that
Wales is not a Country, rather than for other people to prove it is.

An assembly then...semantics ;). The fact still remains that it still has to clear it's decisions through London, and isn't completely independent of England. I've laid out my evidence.....now it's your turn.

Something being fundamentally wrong is not semantics. The Welsh assembly is not a Parliament and has no powers to legislate or raise taxes.

It is ruled by the UK Parliament, so is England. It is ruled over by the monarch of the UK, so is England. There is no fundamental difference between England and Wales, in fact that is what you are called, England and Wales as per the Act of Union. So if you wish to argue that Wales is a principality within the UK then you must also accept that England is the same. By your own words they are merged. Unless you can show me something to the contrary.

Indeed that would mean Scotland, by having it's own Parliament with devolved powers, in addition to electing MPs to rule over England and Wales is the only truly separate Country within the UK.

Works for me.

[Something Else]

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/615/hijackdukenukemmissionmm2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Beenieman]

I think Wales is part of England but not in the official sense, It has it's own National Football Team and even though it's a shit team it still proves that Wales is seen as a Country in it's own right. I think we will see Scotland breakaway before we see Wales Become offcially seperated from England though.

[Mr JP Fugley]

I think Wales is part of England but not in the official sense, It has it's own National Football Team and even though it's a shit team it still proves that Wales is seen as a Country in it's own right. I think we will see Scotland breakaway before we see Wales Become offcially seperated from England though.

Or indeed vice versa.

[Squeamous]

[
Something being fundamentally wrong is not semantics. The Welsh assembly is not a Parliament and has no powers to legislate or raise taxes.

It is ruled by the UK Parliament, so is England. It is ruled over by the monarch of the UK, so is England. There is no fundamental difference between England and Wales, in fact that is what you are called, England and Wales as per the Act of Union. So if you wish to argue that Wales is a principality within the UK then you must also accept that England is the same. By your own words they are merged. Unless you can show me something to the contrary.

Indeed that would mean Scotland, by having it's own Parliament with devolved powers, in addition to electing MPs to rule over England and Wales is the only truly separate Country within the UK.

Works for me.

It was semantics in that it was a slip of the tongue not intended to raise the points you mention.

Wales is most definitely defined as a principality by the looks of things, but the question remains, is it a country as well? I would suggest that because Wales was absorbed by England and all of its infrastructure (as it was) was subject to the laws of England when that happened, that it has never been a separate country. England may have absorbed Wales, but none of its laws or behaviours changed when it did so.....Wales's however did.

Subsequently, both England and Wales became part of the UK and both became subject to UK law.....so it would be reasonable to say I guess, that at that time Wales became a principality of the UK rather than England.

[Squeamous]

I think Wales is part of England but not in the official sense, It has it's own National Football Team and even though it's a shit team it still proves that Wales is seen as a Country in it's own right. I think we will see Scotland breakaway before we see Wales Become offcially seperated from England though.

Probably.

[Beenieman]

They seem to have a better nhs up scotland too and they are willing to spend more on live saving drugs than down here in England, Anyway that was offtopic lol.

[Squeamous]

Mmmm, a point was made on another board recently that I hadn't considered. Scotland only has a set amount of money in the pot. If they want to create a more generous NHS or have free University education then something somewhere will have to give. It's a case of shuttling the money around where you think it's needed most. So, something somewhere else will have to suffer for it.

[Mr JP Fugley]

[
Something being fundamentally wrong is not semantics. The Welsh assembly is not a Parliament and has no powers to legislate or raise taxes.

It is ruled by the UK Parliament, so is England. It is ruled over by the monarch of the UK, so is England. There is no fundamental difference between England and Wales, in fact that is what you are called, England and Wales as per the Act of Union. So if you wish to argue that Wales is a principality within the UK then you must also accept that England is the same. By your own words they are merged. Unless you can show me something to the contrary.

Indeed that would mean Scotland, by having it's own Parliament with devolved powers, in addition to electing MPs to rule over England and Wales is the only truly separate Country within the UK.

Works for me.

It was semantics in that it was a slip of the tongue not intended to raise the points you mention.

Wales is most definitely defined as a principality by the looks of things, but the question remains, is it a country as well? I would suggest that because Wales was absorbed by England and all of its infrastructure (as it was) was subject to the laws of England when that happened, that it has never been a separate country. England may have absorbed Wales, but none of its laws or behaviours changed when it did so.....Wales's however did.

Subsequently, both England and Wales became part of the UK and both became subject to UK law.....so it would be reasonable to say I guess, that at that time Wales became a principality of the UK rather than England.

You can't just change what the word semantics means just because you made a mistake. Please don't say "you know what I meant" you're better than that.

The rest of your post is quite frankly specious.

I particularly like the bit where you say "... both England and Wales became part of the UK and both became subject to UK law..." which kind of defeats your own argument as it effectively says that they were separate entities. Countries if you will.

You then go on to say "...so it would be reasonable to say I guess, that at that time Wales became a principality of the UK rather than England", which begs the question, how is England different.

Pretty much a précis of my previous.

[Mr JP Fugley]

Mmmm, a point was made on another board recently that I hadn't considered. Scotland only has a set amount of money in the pot. If they want to create a more generous NHS or have free University education then something somewhere will have to give. It's a case of shuttling the money around where you think it's needed most. So, something somewhere else will have to suffer for it.

The same could be said of the UK as a whole.

[Squeamous]

You can't just change what the word semantics means just because you made a mistake.

The rest of your post is quite frankly specious.

I particularly like the bit where you say "... both England and Wales became part of the UK and both became subject to UK law..." which kind of defeats your own argument as it effectively says that they were separate entities. Countries if you will.

You then go on to say "...so it would be reasonable to say I guess, that at that time Wales became a principality of the UK rather than England", which begs the question, how is England different.

Pretty much a précis of my last.

I'm willing to accept I made a mistake....I used the term 'parliament' when I really meant 'assembly'. This wasn't to illustrate a point, it was a slip of the tongue.....happens all the time.

I thought I'd explained how England was different.....it was probably the bit you called specious.

Of course Wales and England became part of the UK together.....and they are separate entities, albeit in my opinion not 'equal ones'. That's why I refer to one as a country and the other as a principality.

[Mr. Mulder]

i like living in the uk as all my stuff is here.

[Squeamous]

The same could be said of the UK as a whole.

Any geographical entity with a system of taxation and redistribution of income, in fact.

[Mr. Mulder]

i went to another country last week for a few days and took some of my stuff with me but it was hardly the same

[Squeamous]

That's nice Mr Mulder......you're not blonde are you? :D

[Mr JP Fugley]

You can't just change what the word semantics means just because you made a mistake.

The rest of your post is quite frankly specious.

I particularly like the bit where you say "... both England and Wales became part of the UK and both became subject to UK law..." which kind of defeats your own argument as it effectively says that they were separate entities. Countries if you will.

You then go on to say "...so it would be reasonable to say I guess, that at that time Wales became a principality of the UK rather than England", which begs the question, how is England different.

Pretty much a précis of my last.

I'm willing to accept I made a mistake....I used the term 'parliament' when I really meant 'assembly'. This wasn't to illustrate a point, it was a slip of the tongue.....happens all the time.

I thought I'd explained how England was different.....it was probably the bit you called specious.

Of course Wales and England became part of the UK together.....and they are separate entities, albeit in my opinion not 'equal ones'. That's why I refer to one as a country and the other as a principality.

On what do you base this differentiation.

You really need to think this thro'

You have them merged, you have one absorbed by the other, you have them joining the UK as one, you have them joining the UK separately, you have Wales as a principality of England, you have Wales as a principality of the UK, you have England as a country and Wales as a principality.

Your argument really seems to be all over the place.

[Mr JP Fugley]

The same could be said of the UK as a whole.

Any geographical entity with a system of taxation and redistribution of income, in fact.

That's just a collection of words old bean.

[Squeamous]

On what do you base this differentiation.

You really need to think this thro'

You have them merged, you have one absorbed by the other, you have them joining the UK as one, you have them joining the UK separately, you have Wales as a principality of England, you have Wales as a principality of the UK, you have England as a country and Wales as a principality.

Your argument really seems to be all over the place.

It's not all over the place....this is a complex argument and a complex issue, hence there will be a lot of seemingly contradictory terms coming up which in fact marry together in a very subtle but coherent way. I told you what I based this differentiation on...the bit you dismissed as specious. As such, there hardly seems any point me repeating it........if I do it will only confuse you even more :P.

[Squeamous]

Any geographical entity with a system of taxation and redistribution of income, in fact.

That's just a collection of words old bean.

So is that.

[Mr JP Fugley]

That's just a collection of words old bean.

So is that.

Not just, there's all sorts of other stuff going on. In the background, like.

[Squeamous]

Not just a pretty face then? :P

[Mr JP Fugley]

Not even a pretty face then? :P

Fixed.

[Squeamous]

Tsk. Be kind to yourself.

[Skiz]

Who said it was a state. The two aren't analogous. The Vatican City is a state however I wouldn't describe it as a country.



I thought The Vatican City was a country. The smallest country in the World. I even remember that as a Trivial Pursuit question. :unsure:

[Squeamous]

It is. It even has its own standing army.

[Biggles]

That's nice Mr Mulder......you're not blonde are you? :D

If he was he

/so would

Wales was a collection of princedoms until it was forcibly absorbed under the English crown in the late 13th century. They were not willing participants.

They clearly were of a separate land with different language culture and tradition. Much of this has remained (especially the leek/sheep thing which it is best not to speak of). Their current legal status in terms of whether they are or not a sparate country is moot. The terms of Edward's conquest of Wales were not favourable and these have cascaded down into latter legal documents. That said similar attempts to control the Irish were made and they stuck rather less well and no one would dispute that the Republic is a separate country. Edward failed to conquer Scotland and the settlements of the 18th century preserved Scotland's separate status rather more clearly than those governing Wales and Ireland (albeit Ireland broke cleanly away in the early 20th century).

I am a bit pished after the Scotland game and the electric "CLEAR" things applied after the missed Italian kick at the end have left me a bit woozy so to recap...

Wales is by any language/culture definition a separate land. English people view it as a quite alien place - having in lived in Bath for a number of years I know just how alien they think it is. Legally Wales has been tied to England through conquest but 13th century avaricious kings are no basis for government and it wouldn't take the international legal eagles long to untie those knots if the Welsh people chose that route.

Does that make sence?

[Mr JP Fugley]

It's a state, not a country.

Stop fucking with Skizo's head, it's not fair.

[Squeamous]

Biggles! I've never seen you so coherent!

[Mr JP Fugley]

That's nice Mr Mulder......you're not blonde are you? :D

If he was he

/so would

Wales was a collection of princedoms until it was forcibly absorbed under the English crown in the late 13th century. They were not willing participants.

They clearly were of a separate land with different language culture and tradition. Much of this has remained (especially the leek/sheep thing which it is best not to speak of). Their current legal status in terms of whether they are or not a sparate country is moot. The terms of Edward's conquest of Wales were not favourable and these have cascaded down into latter legal documents. That said similar attempts to control the Irish were made and they stuck rather less well and no one would dispute that the Republic is a separate country. Edward failed to conquer Scotland and the settlements of the 18th century preserved Scotland's separate status rather more clearly than those governing Wales and Ireland (albeit Ireland broke cleanly away in the early 20th century).

I am a bit pished after the Scotland game and the electric "CLEAR" things applied after the missed Italian kick at the end have left me a bit woozy so to recap...

Wales is by any language/culture definition a separate land. English people view it as a quite alien place - having in lived in Bath for a number of years I know just how alien they think it is. Legally Wales has been tied to England through conquest but 13th century avaricious kings are no basis for government and it wouldn't take the international legal eagles long to untie those knots if the Welsh people chose that route.

Does that make sence?

Indeed it does. Wales is a country in it's own right, every bit as much as England is.

[Biggles]

Biggles! I've never seen you so coherent!

Bugger!

[Squeamous]

Oh ffs.....The Vatican is a sovereign state, that makes it a country doesn't it? Christ, I'm glad I live in a proper country instead of Limboland.

[Mr JP Fugley]

Oh ffs.....The Vatican is a sovereign state, that makes it a country doesn't it? Christ, I'm glad I live in a proper principality instead of Limboland.

Fixed.

[Squeamous]

I am such a twat

Aw, come on.....you're not that bad.

[Skiz]

I was too lazy to Google it earlier, but just did. Definitely a country.

[Mr JP Fugley]

I was too lazy to Google it earlier, but just did. Definitely a country.

Wrong again, you must get bored with it.

[Biggles]

I was too lazy to Google it earlier, but just did. Definitely a country.

What, Wales?

[Squeamous]

Wrong again, you must get bored with it.

What, Wales?

Oh Biggles, you little tyke!

[Mr JP Fugley]

:lol:

[thewizeard]

Whales swim in the sea.

[Gripper]

Are North America,Central America and South America just one big fuckin country?

[Mr JP Fugley]

Are North America,Central America and South America just one big fuckin country?

No, that's just mad talk.

[Gripper]

But they are joined they have yhe same name and by Peerzy's girlfriends logic they are the same country.

[Mr JP Fugley]

Ah but, if they are known as the Americas then they must be more than 1.

QED and ergo not one country.

[Squeamous]

I used to think that when I was about 10....in fact I distinctly remember my dad informing me otherwise, and me thinking it made no sense at all.

[Squeamous]

I used to think that when I was about 10....in fact I distinctly remember my dad informing me otherwise, and me thinking it made no sense at all.

[MediaSlayer]

Biggles! I've never seen you so coherent!


biggles knows loads about history, politics, law, and some about esoteric matters.


i've been thinkin' about asking him if we wants to join my secret society, but faced with a dilemma, so haven't asked yet.

[Squeamous]

I was being sarcy :P. It was an interesting piece, but his arse was so firmly sat on the fence when he wrote it he'll be pulling splinters out for weeks.

[Beenieman]

ok so 7 pages later.. have we decided if Wales is a country because I got lost about 2 pages back :(

[Mr JP Fugley]

I was being sarcy :P. It was an interesting piece, but his arse was so firmly sat on the fence when he wrote it he'll be pulling splinters out for weeks.

To be fair Scotland had recently qualified at the expense of mighty Italy so he may have been a tad the worse for the grain.

[Squeamous]

I personally think it probably isn't, but I can't find the info on the net strangely. It is definitely a principality, but I'm unsure now whether it can be classed as a country as well. If I manage to find a Welsh person who can read and write I'll ask them and let you know.

:P

[Mr JP Fugley]

We have decided that it is both a Country in it's own right and a principality within the UK, the same as England. Scotland however has it's own devolved Parliament with the right to legislate and raise taxes, independent of the UK Government at Westminster and is therefore more self determining.

Indeed Scottish elected MPs can vote on matters which relate entirely to England and Wales and not Scotland. However only Scottish elected MPS can vote in relation to the devolved issues. Primarily health, education, law and order.

[Peerzy]

But they are joined they have yhe same name and by Peerzy's girlfriends logic they are the same country.

We've just read through the thread and I asked her if she did think they were the same country and she said Yes :huh:

'Cause it's joined, like :unsure:

[Squeamous]

To be fair Scotland had recently qualified at the expense of mighty Italy so he may have been a tad the worse for the grain.

Nah, he does it all the time. He's one of those annoying people who like to absorb information without necessarily forming a judgement on it.

[Squeamous]

We have decided that it is both a Country in it's own right and a principality within the UK, the same as England. Scotland however has it's own devolved Parliament with the right to legislate and raise taxes, independent of the UK Government at Westminster and is therefore more self determining.

Indeed Scottish elected MPs can vote on matters which relate entirely to England and Wales and not Scotland. However only Scottish elected MPS can vote in relation to the devolved issues. Primarily health, education, law and order.

England is a kingdom, Wales is a principality.....get it right.

[Mr JP Fugley]

We have decided that it is both a Country in it's own right and a principality within the UK, the same as England. Scotland however has it's own devolved Parliament with the right to legislate and raise taxes, independent of the UK Government at Westminster and is therefore more self determining.

Indeed Scottish elected MPs can vote on matters which relate entirely to England and Wales and not Scotland. However only Scottish elected MPS can vote in relation to the devolved issues. Primarily health, education, law and order.

England is a kingdom, Wales is a principality.....get it right.

:lol:

How is England a Kingdom.

[Mr JP Fugley]

To be fair Scotland had recently qualified at the expense of mighty Italy so he may have been a tad the worse for the grain.

Nah, he does it all the time. He's one of those annoying people who like to absorb information without necessarily forming a judgement on it.

:glag::earl::genious:

[Squeamous]

:lol:

How is England a Kingdom.

Technically speaking, England has a monarch and Wales has a prince....hence the terminology. Slightly dated maybe, but I believe it still stands.

[Squeamous]

You know what? I've learned something here today......I live on one hell of an interesting little island.

[Mr JP Fugley]

:lol:

How is England a Kingdom.

Technically speaking, England has a monarch and Wales has a prince....hence the terminology. Slightly dated maybe, but I believe it still stands.

Cool, so now we're saying that the constitutional monarchy that is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland no longer exists.

Really works for me.

Can we be a republic.

[Squeamous]

I had actually written 'and yes I know technically all parts of the UK come under the UK monarch.....' but deleted it. Boy am I regretting that decision now!

[Mr JP Fugley]

I had actually written 'and yes I know technically all parts of the UK come under the UK monarch.....' but deleted it. Boy am I regretting that decision now!

It was a good choice, for two reasons.

To use the word "technically" twice would have been appalling.

More importantly self pwnage > pwnage.

[Squeamous]

Pfftt! Not really......a) If I had included it I would have altered the whole thing to sound grammatically and structurally ship-shape, b) It would have unnecessarily complicated the point I was making, since it was rather stating the bleeding obvious, and c) that is why I made the point that the terminology was slightly dated...having come about before the advent of the UK.

[Mr JP Fugley]

Pfftt! Not really......a) If I had included it I would have altered the whole thing to sound grammatically and structurally ship-shape, b) It would have unnecessarily complicated the point I was making, since it was rather stating the bleeding obvious, and c) that is why I made the point that the terminology was slightly dated...having come about before the advent of the UK.

:noes:

[Squeamous]

Pfftt! Not really......a) If I had included it I would have altered the whole thing to sound grammatically and structurally ship-shape, b) It would have unnecessarily complicated the point I was making, since it was rather stating the bleeding obvious, and c) that is why I made the point that the terminology was slightly dated...having come about before the advent of the UK.

:sadwalk:

Yeah, you know the crushing hand of reason when you see it.....keep on walking....

[Mr JP Fugley]

:sadwalk:

Yeah, you know the crushing hand of reason when you see it.....keep on walking....

http://www.newrealitydelivery.com/images/1_thumbs-up.jpg

[Squeamous]

Now that was just nasty.

[Barbarossa]

It seems that there are varying definitions of "country".

If we can decide on a definition for "country", then we may be able to determine what is one, and what aint.

[Chip Monk]

Country - Bit of the World where they all do the same stuff. See Wales.

I have submitted the above to all the appropriate agencies.