donate and you shall receive

[Polarbear]

what is really getting on my nerves it not the fact, that some sites offer value in return for money.
nobody can be blamed for making an offer. it's always the buyer's free will to accept the deal and the conditions or not.
i'm pretty sure that almost every cent they make is for the benefit of the tracker and the community.

but i strongly disagree with the common abuse of the term "donation" when it comes to p2l

it is NOT a donation if you offer something in return. no matter what. there is no donationware or "donate and you will get..."

it is a sale!

calling it a donation is an insult to all users who donate on sites where they get nothing but the good feeling of having contributed.

let me repeat this again. i'm not saying that it's wrong to have p2l.

but please don't be hypocritical and give it a name:
it is selling value for the common good of the users and the community. call it charity sale if you like.

but it's most definitely not a donation

[tuning]

You are right....the trackers are commercializing....especially ScT...

[tuning]

You are right....the trackers are commercializing....especially ScT...

[dragos]

you like creating flame-threads Polarbear ?

[aysomc]

i thought they called it donations because site like this could get in trouble if they were given money for anything other than a "donation". we all know they're selling UL credit or vip or something for the money but im pretty sure its much safer legally to just call it all a "donation".

[nihility]

you can choose to not get anythign in return apart from teh gold star

[Polarbear]

you like creating flame-threads Polarbear ?

i really think you didn't get my point

[dragos]

you like creating flame-threads Polarbear ?

i really think you didn't get my point

of course i got it, but is there a reason i'm saying for today's and yesterday's threads? Apart from FTN and ScT supporters flaming each other? In other places this thread would be a good ideea , although useless discution cuz it won't change anything. But here everyone wants to show how smart they are compared to others so it always results to flame.

[fook3d]

Some truth, But not all donations are free from personal gain, However big or small.

Take the local pet shelter for example, Although they would be a registered charity, They do take donations and in return you get some little badge and a "letter from a dog" every X months.

Although the above is not the same topic, The donation is setup the same way. Sure, You can say you dont want the badge and letter etc, But, Back onto this subject, if you wrote to the owner of the tracker and said you wanted to donate money but didnt want the perks, Im almost certain you would be able to, So that does make it a donation if they accept that way, As you no longer have to take the "freebies"

[Polarbear]

i really think you didn't get my point

of course i got it, but is there a reason i'm saying for today's and yesterday's threads? Apart from FTN and ScT supporters flaming each other? In other places this thread would be a good ideea , although useless discution cuz it won't change anything. But here everyone wants to show how smart they are compared to others so it always results to flame.

that's not my fault. i didn't mention any tracker name in my topic. i was objectiv. so don't blame me for creating flame wars. want i wanted was a general discussion.
if you think this is not possible on this forum, maybe there shouldn't be controvercial threads at all.

[dave12]

ya whats wrong with it not everybody donate, so to encourage they have to do this after all they have to improve server, pay sever charges etc and i dont find it wrong until they do not force every one to donate.

[wildbytes]

I dont think you get it.


Sites do this because with out donations the site and or sites will start to fold. The said thing in all this is if you dont offer much besides that Donor star then you dont get many people that donate. Users are all what can you do for me if i donate. I guess the fact that we take all the risk is and give them a place to meet and access many things they want is not enough.



So get off your high horse... NO MONEY MEANS NO SITES





Wild

[Sench]

it would be nice if they gave out invites for people who are not members but who have donated money to FTN :)

[Polarbear]

So get off your high horse... NO MONEY MEANS NO SITES



did i say anywhere that i'm against it?


i'm not saying that it's wrong to have p2l.

[Grind$oFine]

There wouldn't be very many donations if there weren't any benefits. And I'd believe, first, that since what's given is upload credit or a gold star or an invite, it isn't physically worth any money, so you really AREN'T getting anything.

It's not that big of a deal, is it?

In any case, you want to talk about real donations? Your donations are very often just excess money made from buying something.. girl scout cookies piss you off too? How about if they sold candy bars for breast cancer? Or tshirts and ipods that benefited AIDS? "Get a free carwash from our baseball team, but we're accepting any donations you want to give us"... This happens in the real world too, and you don't hear tons of people complaining about that.

In any case it would be kind of sad if all these sites still survived if they offered nothing in return. There are much better causes then keeping 38742958480293+ torrent sites alive....

If it doesn't make you feel good inside to donate to sites that give you something in return, then don't donate. And maybe you should start a torrent site and follow your values and see what happens to it...?

[phrenzy]

what is really getting on my nerves it not the fact, that some sites offer value in return for money.
nobody can be blamed for making an offer. it's always the buyer's free will to accept the deal and the conditions or not.
i'm pretty sure that almost every cent they make is for the benefit of the tracker and the community.

but i strongly disagree with the common abuse of the term "donation" when it comes to p2l

it is NOT a donation if you offer something in return. no matter what. there is no donationware or "donate and you will get..."

it is a sale!

calling it a donation is an insult to all users who donate on sites where they get nothing but the good feeling of having contributed.

let me repeat this again. i'm not saying that it's wrong to have p2l.

but please don't be hypocritical and give it a name:
it is selling value for the common good of the users and the community. call it charity sale if you like.

but it's most definitely not a donation

Well you have every rite to ask for your accounts to be deleted and stop making threads about things you hate........BTW on SCT i never saw anything about items for sale other than T-shirts..I may not agree w/ donate for invites but whatever floats there boats... I just choose not to.........

[Polarbear]

There wouldn't be very many donations if there weren't any benefits.....you really AREN'T getting anything.

antagonism of the day ;)



Well you have every rite to ask for your accounts to be deleted and stop making threads about things you hate

in other words: if you don't like it, shut up and get the fuck out
btw. what account???

[seppypom]

Honestly, how did you think this thread was going to turn out?

[Polarbear]

Honestly, how did you think this thread was going to turn out?

you're right. i'm outta here. sorry for bringing this up.

[phrenzy]

antagonism of the day ;)



Well you have every rite to ask for your accounts to be deleted and stop making threads about things you hate

in other words: if you don't like it, shut up and get the fuck out
btw. what account???

You should follow your own advice........:blink:

[dragos]

Honestly, how did you think this thread was going to turn out?

you're right. i'm outta here. sorry for bringing this up.

i told you how it will be with this thread. You are new here , but i hope you learned you can't have an inteligent discution here, too many kids with hormones gone wild which need to prove how smart they are. :01:

[Dr_Green_Thumb]

So Polarbear your saying if I donate to United Way and they give me a t-shirt i am really just buying a shirt from them and not donating....wrong.

[mbucari1]

what do you expect from an apple fan?

http://www.princeton.edu/plug/linux-penguin.png

[Grind$oFine]

antagonism of the day ;)



I would think the antagonism of the day wouldn't be my statement with half of my words (including my reasoning) omitted. If what I said was really that opposing why did you take the two sentences out of context...?

& Really, I hope no one loses sleep at night because someone gets some upload credit for giving money to help a site survive. I've seen some crazy things but if torrents effect your life this much... I have nothing more to say than this situation is pretty sad and I hope you can find a new hobby or at least something meaningful to feel so strongly about.

But if you just can't give it up.. instead of posting in this forum, which is just going to create chaos, you should personally boycott all the sites that are "P2L"...

That'll show 'em..

[xJohnxSmithx]

I have a great list of trackers that don't force p2l with crazy fast seedboxes so nobody can seedback enough so they have to pay. This is the new trap out there from Greedy tracker owners. There are many great trackers out there that you can seedback and be known as a valued member. They all make their monthly costs from people who don't want to seedback and would rather "donate", but at least they have the choice, and from happy users who can afford to support their favorite trackers.

If you want a list of some great trackers PM me.
Bit torrent communities were built to share.

rarity is for posers. Content and ease of use is the key to any good relationship.

[wildbytes]

I have a great list of trackers that don't force p2l with crazy fast seedboxes so nobody can seedback enough so they have to pay. This is the new trap out there from Greedy tracker owners. There are many great trackers out there that you can seedback and be known as a valued member. They all make their monthly costs from people who don't want to seedback and would rather "donate", but at least they have the choice, and from happy users who can afford to support their favorite trackers.

If you want a list of some great trackers PM me.
Bit torrent communities were built to share.

rarity is for posers. Content and ease of use is the key to any good relationship.



HAHA You have no clue.


You think tracker owners and tracker staff get uploaders to help screw your ratio? if so then your nutts. We get them so people like you can get your files as fast as you can download them, many people are all about the speed. We can not control what members have like seed box and or fast home lines.



So before you open your pie hole you should get and know all the facts before ever posting, and or maybe start your own tracker and show everyone they are wrong.






Wild

[Grind$oFine]

Besides if people had to spend their money because they HAD TO buy upload credit on sites, why wouldn't they just take that money and invest in a seedbox or a faster internet connection?

[Polarbear]

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/7369/honestur3.png

this is honest

[Roark]

It is a donation. You're not paying for gigs/invites any more than people who attend political fundraising events are paying $500 for a plate of food.

[Brandon]

Thought I would chime in and give my thoughts and possibly a few facts on this topic. I'll try to make this as clean as possible as I have no intention to bash any site or anything of that sort.


I dont think you get it.


Sites do this because with out donations the site and or sites will start to fold. The said thing in all this is if you dont offer much besides that Donor star then you dont get many people that donate. Users are all what can you do for me if i donate. I guess the fact that we take all the risk is and give them a place to meet and access many things they want is not enough.



So get off your high horse... NO MONEY MEANS NO SITES


Wild

Before I reply to this, just wanna say I <3 u wild.
With that being said, having gone to college for a business degree and such I have a keen insight on financial knowledge and the like. My view on what you said is simple. Donations are there to "help" run the site, not to fund it. If you cannot fund the server on your own then you're going to be walking on thin ice every month hoping your users/clients are kind enough to continue giving/supporting you to the full extent. Most of these sites that follow the "please give us money so we can stay up" route are taking a huge risk and personally I would never invest in such a place because it's a gamble. If you can't afford to run YOUR site with YOUR money, you're nothing but a begger hoping to get enough money off the street to support your day. Please keep in mind this is just my opinion, others will no doubt see it differently.


i thought they called it donations because site like this could get in trouble if they were given money for anything other than a "donation". we all know they're selling UL credit or vip or something for the money but im pretty sure its much safer legally to just call it all a "donation".

You nailed it right on the money regarding why most sites call it a donation. However, in a legal aspect, it's just false security. You could call it a WinkyDink for all the legal system cares. It's still a transaction, the name isn't important.


So Polarbear your saying if I donate to United Way and they give me a t-shirt i am really just buying a shirt from them and not donating....wrong.

Actually yes. It's no different than say for example, buying a painting at an auction and all proceeds go to charity. You still purchased the shirt, however the money is then donated. In p2l site situations, they're just donating the money to themselves. Main difference between the two, purchasing a shirt from United Way that you'll probably never wear is gong to a good cause, donating to steal copyright material from corporations isn't.



On a side note. I notice some sites have massive user agreements that resemble legal agreements. Don't make yourselves look silly. A lot more goes into a legal agreement than just pasting some words onto a web page. If you really think that's going to save you from anything you're sadly wrong. For example, I couldn't just put "you agree to send me $5,000 by joining this site" and expect to be able to take it to court and win.

[Roark]

I don't think they call it a donation just for the legality; it's just the most accurate description of what's going on. You pay us money which goes to keep the site running, and to show appreciation, we'll give you gigs/status/invites.

Now the question is, if a person owns the servers, does it matter if he's on staff.php ;)

[xJohnxSmithx]

I have a great list of trackers that don't force p2l with crazy fast seedboxes so nobody can seedback enough so they have to pay. This is the new trap out there from Greedy tracker owners. There are many great trackers out there that you can seedback and be known as a valued member. They all make their monthly costs from people who don't want to seedback and would rather "donate", but at least they have the choice, and from happy users who can afford to support their favorite trackers.

If you want a list of some great trackers PM me.
Bit torrent communities were built to share.

rarity is for posers. Content and ease of use is the key to any good relationship.



HAHA You have no clue.


You think tracker owners and tracker staff get uploaders to help screw your ratio? if so then your nutts. We get them so people like you can get your files as fast as you can download them, many people are all about the speed. We can not control what members have like seed box and or fast home lines.



So before you open your pie hole you should get and know all the facts before ever posting, and or maybe start your own tracker and show everyone they are wrong.





Wild


Damn, I hit a nerve with you,,,,hmmm


Thought I would chime in and give my thoughts and possibly a few facts on this topic. I'll try to make this as clean as possible as I have no intention to bash any site or anything of that sort.



Before I reply to this, just wanna say I <3 u wild.
With that being said, having gone to college for a business degree and such I have a keen insight on financial knowledge and the like. My view on what you said is simple. Donations are there to "help" run the site, not to fund it. If you cannot fund the server on your own then you're going to be walking on thin ice every month hoping your users/clients are kind enough to continue giving/supporting you to the full extent. Most of these sites that follow the "please give us money so we can stay up" route are taking a huge risk and personally I would never invest in such a place because it's a gamble. If you can't afford to run YOUR site with YOUR money, you're nothing but a begger hoping to get enough money off the street to support your day. Please keep in mind this is just my opinion, others will no doubt see it differently.


i thought they called it donations because site like this could get in trouble if they were given money for anything other than a "donation". we all know they're selling UL credit or vip or something for the money but im pretty sure its much safer legally to just call it all a "donation".

You nailed it right on the money regarding why most sites call it a donation. However, in a legal aspect, it's just false security. You could call it a WinkyDink for all the legal system cares. It's still a transaction, the name isn't important.


So Polarbear your saying if I donate to United Way and they give me a t-shirt i am really just buying a shirt from them and not donating....wrong.

Actually yes. It's no different than say for example, buying a painting at an auction and all proceeds go to charity. You still purchased the shirt, however the money is then donated. In p2l site situations, they're just donating the money to themselves. Main difference between the two, purchasing a shirt from United Way that you'll probably never wear is gong to a good cause, donating to steal copyright material from corporations isn't.



On a side note. I notice some sites have massive user agreements that resemble legal agreements. Don't make yourselves look silly. A lot more goes into a legal agreement than just pasting some words onto a web page. If you really think that's going to save you from anything you're sadly wrong. For example, I couldn't just put "you agree to send me $5,000 by joining this site" and expect to be able to take it to court and win.

Well put

[chillincool]

I always disliked TL for this...you pay a 3 month subscription fee for 3 months of not getting banned for ratio or hit&run.

[xJohnxSmithx]

TL is very easy to seedback. There is no need to p2l there. The option is there for people who want to do so. There is no preasure from them to p2l.

[chillincool]

There's no need to p2l anywhere if you aren't a noob at torrents =\

[Grind$oFine]

There's no need to p2l anywhere if you aren't a noob at torrents =\

That's definitely true, I still don't see the problem with this donating stuff... but I think if they have donating for GB's then they should enforce hit n run rules... no one likes leechers, but not everyone who donates for GBs leeches, and they wouldn't even need the extra.

[stoi]

my 2cents here.

When i first started blackcats 5 years ago or so, i ran it from my home PC on a 25kbs line, the pc was a sony vaio laptop, 500mhz pent 3 11gig hdd 8meg gfx, and it was my main PC as well, so i used to rip, rar, download, unrar etc on it, i also used to seed as if i didnt do it who would.

and it didnt cost me a penny, mind you i didnt receive a penny in donations for over 2 years, but it was a public BNBT tracker.

by the time 2 years was up, i was addicted, and needed something else, i was sick of the leechers, so went and grabbed tbdev, installed it, and as you can imagine, my pc struggled immensly.

went to a shared server in sweden, again though, 2000 peers would crash the thing, so saved up the cash (from my own funds, and btw im unemployed) and got a dedi server in Hong kong.

that handles things a lot better, but still struggled with 11,000 peers on it.

so moved to where we are now, with 3 very good servers, 2 have 8ig ram 1 has 16gig ram, and they cost an arm and a leg to run, which i could never afford on my unemployment benefit, i couldnt even afford it if i had a full time job.

all im trying to say here is, i started out small and on the cheap, got addicted, and moved up gradually. this is what usually leads to sites these days failing. the owner can afford 1-2 months of the dedicated server, so he rents it, and hopes for donations to cover the cost, and obviously the members to come as well. but if they dont he has no option but to close. but the way i done it i already had the user base from each step, yes it was still a risk, but quite luckily it paid off.

Now onto that useragreement.

it actually comes with the TBdev tracker software, all we done with it was changed every referance to torrentbytes to blackcats. i actually read some of it the other day for the first time, and im like ummm no we dont do that, or that, and we definately dont do that, but its that long winded, and wrote like a lawyer would write it, im not touching the thing.

(sorry for rambling on, but once i start a post, it can go on and on a bit)

[Brandon]

Now onto that useragreement.

it actually comes with the TBdev tracker software, all we done with it was changed every referance to torrentbytes to blackcats. i actually read some of it the other day for the first time, and im like ummm no we dont do that, or that, and we definately dont do that, but its that long winded, and wrote like a lawyer would write it, im not touching the thing.

(sorry for rambling on, but once i start a post, it can go on and on a bit)

hehe, yea I know it does :) I was just saying that it really does no good, and some sites have even more insane user agreements that look like they were copied from amazon.com or something :P

[seppypom]

YO, WHat Up "B"

[chillincool]

All qualms aside though, i've donated to every tracker I use besides TL, and I refuse to "donate" to them.

[dragos]

speaking of "donations" ,check out the new paypal system setup on filezone.

NEW! Now you can buy upload using PayPal!
Step 1. Click the PayPal logo and follow the instructions.
Step 2. After the payment was confirmed, send a PM to ***** with the transaction details.
Step 3. Wait for the profile to be actualized with the new upload quantity.
Thank You!


20€- 200GB Upload + VIP 2 luni/months
30€- 300GB Upload + VIP 3 luni/months
40€- 400GB Upload + VIP 4 luni/months
50€- 500GB Upload + VIP 5 luni/months
etc..

:D aren't they in a giving mood now. That tracker solely exists to get money to sysops. There were some some arguments from some users in the past that they limit upload speeds from the server so that more people "have " to donate cuz they can't keep a ratio. Last days a few more threads like that apeared so maybe they do limit it , who knows. They even modified the donate.php link to "buyupload.php" :D Let's go "donate" 100$ and get 1 TB upload

[Polarbear]

speaking of "donations" ,check out the new paypal system setup on filezone.

NEW! Now you can buy upload using PayPal!
Step 1. Click the PayPal logo and follow the instructions.
Step 2. After the payment was confirmed, send a PM to ***** with the transaction details.
Step 3. Wait for the profile to be actualized with the new upload quantity.
Thank You!


20€- 200GB Upload + VIP 2 luni/months
30€- 300GB Upload + VIP 3 luni/months
40€- 400GB Upload + VIP 4 luni/months
50€- 500GB Upload + VIP 5 luni/months
etc..

:D aren't they in a giving mood now. That tracker solely exists to get money to sysops. There were some some arguments from some users in the past that they limit upload speeds from the server so that more people "have " to donate cuz they can't keep a ratio. Last days a few more threads like that apeared so maybe they do limit it , who knows. They even modified the donate.php link to "buyupload.php" :D Let's go "donate" 100$ and get 1 TB upload

again, this is honest. they're selling upload. wether it is right or wrong, or how users will react is another thing.

but at least i know what's going on and they don't wrongly call it donations.



It is a donation. You're not paying for gigs/invites any more than people who attend political fundraising events are paying $500 for a plate of food.
wrong. under legal and tax aspects they actually buy this plate of food.

i was refering to value in my first post. a t-shirt that you get for donating for the red cross doesn't have a significant value. you might want to compare it to getting a star on a tracker.

an invite to a top level tracker sure does have a value. otherwise there wouldn't be thousands of post in the invite section

[Brandon]

YO, WHat Up "B"

Hey sexy lady :wub:

[Roark]

It is a donation. You're not paying for gigs/invites any more than people who attend political fundraising events are paying $500 for a plate of food.
wrong. under legal and tax aspects they actually buy this plate of food.


My whole point was that there are more meanings of donation than just it's legal and tax definitions. Those people are not paying $500 for food, they're paying to contribute to their favorite candidate. Likewise with tracker donations. "Donation" is the most accurate description of what's going on.

Nothing we do is legal, why bring up legality now? :happy:

[Polarbear]

Nothing we do is legal, why bring up legality now? :happy:

yeah, you are right. talking about legal aspects isn't advisable in the bt world :whistling



whatever - i think we should finish the discussion here. let's keep an eye on the development in the future.

p2l - donations - buy upload

we'll see and everyone has the free will to decide

:yup:

[Brandon]

My whole point was that there are more meanings of donation than just it's legal and tax definitions. Those people are not paying $500 for food, they're paying to contribute to their favorite candidate. Likewise with tracker donations. "Donation" is the most accurate description of what's going on.

Nothing we do is legal, why bring up legality now? :happy:

Accurate would be to allow both purchasing and donating.
Purchase GB link
Send a donatin link
Re-read my other post ;) As stated already, when you are obtaining an item in return, it's still a purchase.

I'll put it into more detail for you. When you exchange money for goods, you just made a transaction aka purchase. On p2l sites you have the option to either donate, or to donate and get extra. That means, you have the option to either donate, or purchase. Both are there, just one is under a false name based on the activity being done.

[Polarbear]

I'll put it into more detail for you. When you exchange money for goods, you just made a transaction aka purchase. On p2l sites you have the option to either donate, or to donate and get extra. That means, you have the option to either donate, or purchase. Both are there, just one is under a false name based on the activity being done.

thank you brandon. i'm happy that someone with experience like you described exactly my point. :D

[Brandon]

I'll put it into more detail for you. When you exchange money for goods, you just made a transaction aka purchase. On p2l sites you have the option to either donate, or to donate and get extra. That means, you have the option to either donate, or purchase. Both are there, just one is under a false name based on the activity being done.

thank you brandon. i'm happy that someone with experience like you described exactly my point. :D

I knew this education thing would be good for something :P
You're quote is messed up btw :)

[Zeus]

Of course it's a sale. I suspect many sites continue to call it a donation because they don't want to acknowledge how commercialised the whole thing has become.

[Roark]

My whole point was that there are more meanings of donation than just it's legal and tax definitions. Those people are not paying $500 for food, they're paying to contribute to their favorite candidate. Likewise with tracker donations. "Donation" is the most accurate description of what's going on.

Nothing we do is legal, why bring up legality now? :happy:

Accurate would be to allow both purchasing and donating.
Purchase GB link
Send a donatin link
Re-read my other post ;) As stated already, when you are obtaining an item in return, it's still a purchase.

I'll put it into more detail for you. When you exchange money for goods, you just made a transaction aka purchase. On p2l sites you have the option to either donate, or to donate and get extra. That means, you have the option to either donate, or purchase. Both are there, just one is under a false name based on the activity being done.

This is a false dichotomy. You can donate to the United Way and not get a tshirt, or donate to the United Way and get a tshirt. No fair minded person would call the latter a purchase. The IRS certainly doesn't; the money you donate is considered a donation as long as the United Way meets its 501c obligations. Similarly, people who donate to your tracker are not buying an arrow next to their name. Again, this is a subjective, not an objective matter, as trackers are obviously not legal entities. But were a tracker a non-profit, all donations would be considered such regardless of the reward given.

Let's take a step back and be realistic for a second - 10 euros on sct for example gives you 10 gigs (and this is the minimum you must donate to get any reward). Is anyone really donating because they think this is a great deal on pirated material? And if they are, I would liken their stupidity to one who gives $100 to the United Way to purchase their tshirt.

[stoi]

we got rid of the pay for gigis system a few months ago, and it used to be £25 for VIP, but a £1 donation did get you 1 gig on your upload.

VIP is now £10 for a month and this is what they get

http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/p-wtf-p2l-post2312167/postcount12

but just to add to that post, we have unlimted seeding slots, but if your KL, User, PU you can only seed 5 torrents and get SP on 2 with the lowest ratios. If your VIP, SPU, UL, Staff you can seed 10, but still get SP on only 2 with the lowest ratios.

If you seed anymore than your alloted seeding amount, you dont get any SP at all, you have to upload the hard way.

Now, when we got rid of the money for gigs system, there was an outcry, but donations have actually went up since we made the change, now wether thats because VIP has come down to £10 from £25, or the bonus to the VIP changed from gigs, to SP bonus, or a mixture of the 2 im not to sure.

IMO if you have a strict hit and run policy like we do, then whats the point of offering Gigs for Money, as everyone still has to seed back to 0.8 anyway to not get a hit and run and preferably a 1 ratio.

The only real bonus would to get yourself closer to a rank up, PU is 1.5 and SPU is 2.05 on our tracker.

We still may offer the gigs for money on some occasions, xmass etc, but i dont think it will be coming back full time anymore.

[jrzy]

How else is a tracker going to entice it's member to help pay the bills...it's not as if they asked outright people would be lining up to donate. It's marketing , that's all...you can't knock them for coming up w/ creative ways to get you to "donate" towards the bills...that's all you're really doing. Some of you may say that extra goes into the pockets of the people behind the scenes....so what, they are the ones who spent countless (unpaid) hours working on these sites to make them great so we can all come onto FST and brag and drive ourselves crazy trying to get invites to these sites.... and to say that you "donate" by seeding and keeping a high ratio is great..that makes you a great member of that community but to have a negative opinion on how the site that "you love" pays the bills is like biting the hand that feeds you. That's just my 2 cents....

My comments are not directed towards anyone specific and are not meant to offend anyone...just my opinion :)

[Dr_Green_Thumb]

^ Very well put