religion is lies

[ilw]

The Swedish government has announced plans to clamp down hard on religious education. It will soon become illegal even for private faith schools to teach religious doctrines as if they were true. In an interesting twist on the American experience, prayer will remain legal in schools - after all, it has no truth value. But everything that takes place on the curriculum's time will have to be secular. "Pupils must be protected from every sort of fundamentalism," said the minister for schools, Jan Björklund.

Creationism and ID are explicitly banned but so is proselytising even in religious education classes. The Qur'an may not be taught as if it is true even in Muslim independent schools, nor may the Bible in Christian schools. The decision looks like a really startling attack on the right of parents to have their children taught what they would like. Of course it does not go so far as the Dawkins policy of prohibiting parents from trying to pass on their doctrines even in their own families - and, if it did, it would certainly run foul of the European convention on human rights. It does not even go as far as Nyamko Sabuni, the minister for integration - herself born in Burundi - would like: she wanted to ban all religious schools altogether. But it is still a pretty drastic measure from an English perspective.

The law is being presented in Sweden as if it mostly concerned fundamentalist Christian sects in the backwoods; but the Christian Democratic party, which represents such people if anyone does, is perfectly happy with the new regulation. There is little doubt that combating Islamic fundamentalism is the underlying aim, especially in conjunction with another new requirement that all independent schools declare all their funding sources. This would allow the inspectors - whose budget is being doubled - to concentrate their efforts on those schools most likely to be paid to break the rules.

In the background to these announcements comes the release of a frightening documentary film on Swedish jihadis, which follows young men over a period of two years on their slow conversion to homicidal lunacy.

The question is whether we in Britain will come to see this as a necessary move in the struggle to contain Islamist ideologies. Can a defence of freedom convincingly be mounted by a state that takes such a firm view of what is or is not true? Or can freedom not be preserved without such measures? The dilemma makes no sense from a completely liberal position, where it is assumed that the truth will always win out in fair competition, and that the state is almost always to be distrusted. But Swedes have never really been liberal in that sense, notwithstanding the fact that the two ministers involved here are members of the Liberal party.

Superficially, the British position could not be more different. The British government's strategy with Islam or protestant extremism in Ulster has been - so far as we have had one - flattery and corruption, or what Microsoft, in another context, calls "embracing and extending". Find the leaders, flatter them, and draw them into the ruling class in the hope that they will then cooperate and see that their followers do too. The gamble that the government is taking on faith schools is that if religious groups are given their own schools to run, they will do so in ways that will turn out for the benefit of society as a whole, as well as of their pupils. Certainly this works quite well with the Church of England. Anglican schools are happy, by and large, to teach religion as if it were not true; to put it in a more flattering light, they concentrate more on the fruits of the spirit than on dogma. However, no one supposes that society is threatened by a terrorist movement nurtured in C of E primary schools.

Demanding that Muslim, Jewish, and Catholic schools stop teaching their own religions as if they were true, which is essentially the Swedish position, looks an impossible task for a British government. But I think it might also be a necessary one. It is certainly the only way to discover whether the parents of such schools really want the "ethos" or the pseudo-factual beliefs and what exactly it is that the people who fund them think they are buying with their money.


i'd vote for it

[Sextent]

No chance here, not whilst the Church and State are joined. Whilst the Queen is the Head of State and also the Head of the Church of England and whilst Anglican Bishops have seats in the upper house. Not whilst Catholic have a constitutional right to having their own schools (which non-Catholics may attend) which teach Catholicism as part of their curriculum.

[Sextent]

Oh and "religion is lies", good thread title, if a tad disingenuous.

[Biggles]

I see ilw's funnies thread melted into the atmosphere.

Teh ways of the Mighty are mysterious indeed.

[Sextent]

:o

[ilw]

I see ilw's funnies thread melted into the atmosphere.

Teh ways of the Mighty are mysterious indeed.

that was more than a bit gay imho considering it wasn't really an offensive depiction of mo. I got a friendly pm from barbarossa telling me about it, but atm its very tempting to start exploring boundaries. Could I have posted it if i'd pixellated mo's face, or put it in spoiler tags with a warning? Or is all criticism of mohammed banned as it potentially breaches rule 1 about offensive posts.

[Sextent]

I see ilw's funnies thread melted into the atmosphere.

Teh ways of the Mighty are mysterious indeed.

that was more than a bit gay imho considering it wasn't really an offensive depiction of mo. I got a friendly pm from barbarossa telling me about it, but atm its very tempting to start exploring boundaries. Could I have posted it if i'd pixellated mo's face, or put it in spoiler tags with a warning? Or is all criticism of mohammed banned as it potentially breaches rule 1 about offensive posts.

I didn't see that, I take it you have had a thread removed.

[chalice]

Fatwah!!

Not much chance of that happening here either. Our schools are about as hardcore religious as you can get.

I didn't want my son to make his First Communion but we felt pressurised by the school. They facilitate it. Didn't want him to stick out, etc.

Integrated schools aren't much of an option either; seeing as the closest one is 30 miles away.

[Sextent]

The funny thing about Ireland is that people take it to be a Catholic country, however the Church of Ireland is actually of the Anglican tradition. Indeed the only Cathedral in Dublin is St Patrick's, which is Church of Ireland.

Don't tell me I'm talking pish this time Chalice, I couldn't take it again. If you have to, could you be a wee bit gentler this time.

[chalice]

The funny thing about Ireland is that people take it to be a Catholic country, however the Church of Ireland is actually of the Anglican tradition. Indeed the only Cathedral in Dublin is St Patrick's, which is Church of Ireland.

Don't tell me I'm talking pish this time Chalice, I couldn't take it again. If you have to, could you be a wee bit gentler this time.


Ah, but this is because Catholicism was largely suppressed throughout the years.

We can probably never get a proportional figure because Catholics were poorly educated, giving rise to the Christian Brothers, who beat me to fuck all through my schooldays, might I add. Catholicism was indeed an act of rebellion on many levels.

You c*nt.

LOL.

[Sextent]

The funny thing about Ireland is that people take it to be a Catholic country, however the Church of Ireland is actually of the Anglican tradition. Indeed the only Cathedral in Dublin is St Patrick's, which is Church of Ireland.

Don't tell me I'm talking pish this time Chalice, I couldn't take it again. If you have to, could you be a wee bit gentler this time.


Ah, but this is because Catholicism was largely suppressed throughout the years.

We can probably never get a proportional figure because Catholics were poorly educated, giving rise to the Christian Brothers, who beat me to fuck all through my schooldays, might I add. Catholicism was indeed an act of rebellion on many levels.

You c*nt.

LOL.

:lol: :naughty:

[ilw]

that was more than a bit gay imho considering it wasn't really an offensive depiction of mo. I got a friendly pm from barbarossa telling me about it, but atm its very tempting to start exploring boundaries. Could I have posted it if i'd pixellated mo's face, or put it in spoiler tags with a warning? Or is all criticism of mohammed banned as it potentially breaches rule 1 about offensive posts.

I didn't see that, I take it you have had a thread removed.

yeah I posted a cartoon from jesusandmo . net
don't click if you are offended by depictions of mohammed/jesus or by people who can't draw
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2007/10/09/swap/

[Sextent]

:lol::earl:

That's really funny and may I add difficult to be offended by, certainly for me. It's just a bit of clever satire and doesn't seem to be having a serious pop at anyone.

Is it offensive if I post something like this.

http://www.anzapt.org/stencilmania/images/Jesus%20shaves_jpg.jpg

[chalice]

Have you heard The Roches singing Jesus Shaves?

If not, download it immediately. Brilliant. Written by a New York hippie guy called Paranoid Larry.

Here's the lyrics...

JESUS SHAVES

by paranoid larry

jesus shaves, joins corporate
america, get’s laid off, grows his
beard back, stays up late, sees a
tv commercial about being a welder,
makes a phone call. jesus shaves,
goes on an interview, does real well,
he’s got a way with people, two years
on he’s still an apprentice, but not for
long, it’s graduation. jesus shaves,
put’s his best suit on, get’s a certificate,
makes it official, now he’s a welder,
wears a big helmet, and twice a week now,
jesus shaves. blessed are the ones
who make peace, blessed are the ones
who scrape by, blessed are the ones
living holy lives and here’s to the rest
of us who try. jesus shaves on sunday
morning, decides to go fishing after
going to church, it’s wintertime, so he
walks on water, digs a whole in the ice
and fishes for perch. jesus shaves the
scales off the fishes, has a few fillets
and a couple of brewskies, thinks about
the girl, magdelena, in payroll, decides that
he’s gonna ask her out for dinner. jesus
shaves for work on monday, goes to the
office, gathers his courage, he’s still
not sure just how he’s gonna ask her,
walks over to her desk and sees a picture
of her boyfriend. blessed are the ones…
she says hello, how are you this morning?
he asks if she knows if it’ll snow or rain.
she notices him looking at the picture on
her desktop, she says it’s her cousin who’s
passed away. he say’s that’s great, she
looks at him funny, he says he didn’t mean
that, she says it’s okay, and then she smiles
and they both start laughing, and that’s
when he knows it’s his lucky day. jesus
shaves, smiling in the mirror, magdelena
is saying that they gotta hurry, they’ll be
late for work and the school bus is coming,
but their daughter likes watching as
jesus shaves. blessed are the ones

That cartoon was superb, ilw, btw.

[Sextent]

Cool lyrics

[snowultra]

i agree, all religion is made up. its just a club now

[Barbarossa]

:lol::earl:

That's really funny and may I add difficult to be offended by, certainly for me. It's just a bit of clever satire and doesn't seem to be having a serious pop at anyone.

I totally agree, however as we know any depiction of mohammed is apaprently offensive to muslims, regardless of whether it is flattering or ridiculous, satirical or inflammatory.

...As the Danes recently found out. :dry:

I'm assuming that was the basis of the complaint, pathetic as it may sound to us.

As far as I am concerned if you pixellated his face that'd be perfectly acceptable ;)

Linking to the original cartoons are fine also :happy:

[GepperRankins]

:lol::earl:

That's really funny and may I add difficult to be offended by, certainly for me. It's just a bit of clever satire and doesn't seem to be having a serious pop at anyone.

I totally agree, however as we know any depiction of mohammed is apaprently offensive to muslims, regardless of whether it is flattering or ridiculous, satirical or inflammatory.

...As the Danes recently found out. :dry:

I'm assuming that was the basis of the complaint, pathetic as it may sound to us.

As far as I am concerned if you pixellated his face that'd be perfectly acceptable ;)

Linking to the original cartoons are fine also :happy:

a family friend tried convincing us that any picture of mohammed is offensive, got pwned when my dad noticed his koran had a picture of mohammed on the cover :dabs:

[bigboab]

I totally agree, however as we know any depiction of mohammed is apaprently offensive to muslims, regardless of whether it is flattering or ridiculous, satirical or inflammatory.

...As the Danes recently found out. :dry:

I'm assuming that was the basis of the complaint, pathetic as it may sound to us.

As far as I am concerned if you pixellated his face that'd be perfectly acceptable ;)

Linking to the original cartoons are fine also :happy:

a family friend tried convincing us that any picture of mohammed is offensive, got pwned when my dad noticed his koran had a picture of mohammed on the cover :dabs:

Could someone enlighten me.(no pun intended)

If you are not allowed to make an image or painting of Mohammed, how does anyone know what he looks like?

[GepperRankins]

a family friend tried convincing us that any picture of mohammed is offensive, got pwned when my dad noticed his koran had a picture of mohammed on the cover :dabs:

Could someone enlighten me.(no pun intended)

If you are not allowed to make an image or painting of Mohammed, how does anyone know what he looks like?

i think you are allowed drawings of him. though you're not supposed to worship people, so you're not supposed to have anyones likeness.

[GepperRankins]

Owing to the traditions of aniconism in Islam, the majority of art concerning Muhammad is calligraphic in nature. The Qur'an condemns idolatry, and pictoral forms are seen as ostensibly close to idol worship. These are found in Ahadith [plural of Hadith]: "Ibn ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) having said: Those who paint pictures would be punished on the Day of Resurrection and it would be said to them: Breathe soul into what you have created." [93][94][95][96]


Within Muslim communities, views have varied regarding pictorial representations. Shi'a Islam has been generally tolerant of pictorial representations of human figures, including Muhammad.[97] Contemporary Sunni Islam generally forbids any pictorial representation of Muhammad,[98] but has had periods allowing depictions of Muhammad's face covered with a veil or as a featureless void emanating light. A few contemporary interpretations of Islam, such as some adherents of Wahhabism and Salafism, are entirely aniconistic and condemn pictorial representations of any kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy#Aniconism



:dabs:

[bigboab]

Owing to the traditions of aniconism in Islam, the majority of art concerning Muhammad is calligraphic in nature. The Qur'an condemns idolatry, and pictoral forms are seen as ostensibly close to idol worship. These are found in Ahadith [plural of Hadith]: "Ibn ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) having said: Those who paint pictures would be punished on the Day of Resurrection and it would be said to them: Breathe soul into what you have created." [93][94][95][96]


Within Muslim communities, views have varied regarding pictorial representations. Shi'a Islam has been generally tolerant of pictorial representations of human figures, including Muhammad.[97] Contemporary Sunni Islam generally forbids any pictorial representation of Muhammad,[98] but has had periods allowing depictions of Muhammad's face covered with a veil or as a featureless void emanating light. A few contemporary interpretations of Islam, such as some adherents of Wahhabism and Salafism, are entirely aniconistic and condemn pictorial representations of any kind.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy#Aniconism



:dabs:

thanks.:)

[Mr JP Fugley]

Owing to the traditions of aniconism in Islam, the majority of art concerning Muhammad is calligraphic in nature. The Qur'an condemns idolatry, and pictoral forms are seen as ostensibly close to idol worship. These are found in Ahadith [plural of Hadith]: "Ibn ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) having said: Those who paint pictures would be punished on the Day of Resurrection and it would be said to them: Breathe soul into what you have created." [93][94][95][96]


Within Muslim communities, views have varied regarding pictorial representations. Shi'a Islam has been generally tolerant of pictorial representations of human figures, including Muhammad.[97] Contemporary Sunni Islam generally forbids any pictorial representation of Muhammad,[98] but has had periods allowing depictions of Muhammad's face covered with a veil or as a featureless void emanating light. A few contemporary interpretations of Islam, such as some adherents of Wahhabism and Salafism, are entirely aniconistic and condemn pictorial representations of any kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy#Aniconism



:dabs:

Basically the way I read that is that they are saying, if we make images then it is the images we would worship and not the person they represent.

I find it difficult to understand why that would be the case.

I may obviously be misunderstanding the true meaning.

It also doesn't explain why they would threaten to kill other people (non-Muslims) who make such images. If the person does not worship the Prophet or the image then it's not idolatry it's nothing, it's just an image. How does that warrant any form of punishment, far less a death sentence.

[Ænima]

+1 for Sweden!

[Snee]

Given how secularized Sweden is, it's a wonder I was ever a protestant.
TBH, most people here won't even notice any change.

It's probably good, though. If people want to believe they should do it on their own time, like, and preventing people from forcing their religious beliefs on others is probably a good thing in this context, given that teachers are in a position of power, and children are impressionable, and all that.

I wonder about people being home-schooled, though, probably a loophole there, if it's not covered. Just call it cooperative home-schooling or something.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/snorlax/mohammednotmohammed.gif

Worship this, inbred fools and whatnot.