Old Skewl Air Cooling

[clocker]

Detale's recent inquiries about watercooling and the subsequent replies- including mine- got me ruminating about air cooling.

Before I fell into the watercooled abyss I had spent quite a bit of time exploring the nuances of airflow and it's implementation in PCs.
Turns out, I still had quite a bit of that stuff mouldering in storage and today spent some quality time rummaging through it all.
Looked there was enough stuff to assemble a working machine, so...

Concurrent with my aircooling experiments I developed a fondness for old style server cases, specifically the highly architectural Gateways.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/g6_200t1.gif
Beige, bulky and built like brick shithouses, these cases are built to a standard we don't see anymore.
The exterior skin, a clamshell design (sides and top all one piece), is considerably thicker gauge than currently fashionable and once removed, exposes an interior structure strong enough to stand on-literally.
At one time I probably had ten of these but sold off/gave away all but one.

If these cases have a downside (we'll ignore the styling and weight, since neither issue bothers moi) it's the proportions.
This one is a whopping 23" tall but only 17" deep, which makes it difficult to watercool- at least internally.
Furthermore, back in the day, 80mm was the fan size of choice (which is odd given how much room there is), so a bit of hacking is necessary to bring it up to today's snuff.

The front bezel actually has a functional intake setup so there will be two 120mm fans there.
One side of the clamshell is going to be cut and filled with mesh and hopefully, airflow will be sufficient for a semi-modern CPU/motherboard.

I like to apply the airflow as directly as possible to the needful components...we'll start with the hard drives.

Using a 120mm fan, a 120 to 140mm adaptor and some hard drive mounting brackets, we get this...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/HD01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/HD02.jpg
Such an amalgamation will allow one (of two) drives to be mounted on the front of the case...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/HDmount.jpg

The second drive (identically dressed) will have to go up in the optical bay area.

The motherboard (Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe w/ Opteron 148 CPU) gets a Zalman HS...a relatively old design but still quite effective and definitely skewed towards silence...a good thing, IMO.
The southbridge loses the whiny stock fan and gets a Thermalright heatpiped unit to which I've strapped a Zalman low-profile 80mm fan...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/MBside.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/MBback.jpg

I dislike using a small fan like this and we'll see how it sounds in practice...might end up losing it later.

We definitely don't want to plug all these fans into the motherboard, nor do we want them run at a straight +12v off the PSU- too noisy- so a fan controller is needed.
Oh look, just happen to have one.
A very good one actually, a Sunbeam, capable of pulling 20A through each of four channels and variable from 0 to 12v linearally.

Don't really want it mounted up front though...it's not particularly handsome, I need the room in the optical bay for the second hard drive and really, once you've set the fans it's not that often it needs to be accessed.
So in the back it goes...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/FanCon.jpg

Above the PSU is a dead space where the original hard drive cage was mounted but since I've otherwise provided for the drives this area will be unused and the fan controller fits nicely...out of sight but accessible when needed.

So now we have this...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/SemiDone.jpg

More to follow.

[Detale]

Damn I feel like you just cut to commercial and you're not coming back

[clocker]

Sorry to leave you hanging, D. but it was time to fire her up and see what happened.

So, what did happen?

Well, the southbridge fan was unbearably loud, probably a function of it's small size (80mm), being clamped directly to the sink (lots 'o turbulance) and being run right off the mobo header (full speed, all the time).
It's gotta go.

I'm using SpeedFan in conjunction with the Asus nVidia Monitor to check temps (they agree on most specs so far and since SpeedFan gives me a tray display that's what I'll be using from now on) and logging the temps overnight was interesting.

The CPU has been bumped from the stock 2.2GHz speed to 2.4GHz- just cause it was easy and didn't require any adjustments to voltage or memory timing (provision for which are sadly lacking on this Asus compared to the DFIs I'm used to).

Now keep in mind, the PC was only idling for this "test"- the clamshell skin (with the perforated mesh "window") was in place but the grill for the optical hasn't been fabbed yet- what I was looking for was an indication of even, consistent airflow.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Air1.jpg

Looks pretty good.

Not sure which HDD is which here (the front mount or the optical bay mount) but one is running "hotter" than the other (although neither is remotely in danger) but I'll be looking into it.

Have a few more experiments to try with fan placement as well- so far, the sound level (without the 80mm running) is quite good, so there's room to play around.

Later.

Edit:
Ok, just determined that the optical bay drive is the hotter of the two...hmmm.

[Detale]

I have a question with all my fans why is this core temp 44 degrees when the others are so much cooler? Is it okay?
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8056/speedfan115gj7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[tesco]

Core usually IS the hottest thing in the computer.
That temp is perfectly fine.

[clocker]

SpeedFan- like any generic monitor app- comes preprogrammed to look at a wide variety of sensors, some of which are not applicable to (or present in) your particular setup.

Sometimes this results in nonsense readings- your display is showing a 0C "ambient", for instance- other times the reading looks semi-reasonable but is clearly not consistent.

I'd recommend you find another app to compare SpeedFan to...ofttimes your motherboard disk will carry a unit specific program.
These are usually not as configurable as SpeedFan but by comparing the two you can eliminate SF's extraneous/nonsense readings.

As for your particular question...I'd say the two core reads of 27c are correct and the 44c is just weirdness (possibly a mobo sensor used for a single core CPU).

Detale, dl Core Temp (http://www.alcpu.com/CoreTemp/) and see what it says.

[Detale]

Thanks again clocker I ran CoreTemp and I got this

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7520/coretemp1104uv7.jpg
Now What the hell is that 85degree Tjunction? I will try and find a MoBo specific program, If anyone knows of one for AS rock that would be cool . Also dude I'm sorry to hijack your thread do you want me to start a new one so I can get back tour progress?

On topic I am still quite a novice at building systems and I have 2 questions about your pics above.
First how did you attach an 80mm fan seemingly over the CPU cooling fan ( if that is what is is ) I have seen similar setups but I don't know how its done.
Second How did you attach a cooling over the southbridge? meaning how do you psyically attach these to the motherboard?

@ rossco What temp isn't perfectly fine aprox?

EDIT: I also used Everest and I got these could the warmer temps be the GPU and the other programs are reading it wrong?
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/9943/everest1104og7.jpg

[clocker]

No need for a new thread (yet), D- HW world is slow enough that you're not hurting anything.

This is Tjunction. (http://www.thecoolest.zerobrains.com/CoreTemp/howitworks.html)

About the pics...

If I understand you correctly... that's actually a 120mm fan over the CPU sink. It's suspended from the crossbrace that traverses the l/h side of the interior (another component that helps strengthen the case by preventing racking).
Since this fan is right next to the mesh sidepanel, it pulls outside air in and pushes it directly to the Zalman.
Activating this fan results in a CPU temp drop of @2°c across the board.
I'm experimenting with a second 120mm fan to do the same thing for the (now fanless) Southbridge sink.

As for the Southbridge...all of the s939 boards I've seen come stock with a cheesy little fan/sink combo.
Typically, they are noisy and fail quickly (Abits were notorious for this).
This aftermarket sink just uses the two holes of the stock fan to install. I didn't use the plastic pushpins, instead substituting screws and nuts to get a good, firm mount.

About your temps...open Everest and SpeedFan together and see where they agree- you should be able to get an idea of what is what and ignore the oddball reads.
Remember, all these apps are interpolating from software and are really only useful as a way to tell whether things are getting better or worse, not what the actual temp of a device is.
Once you gather some baseline data you can implement a change (be it an all new heatsink or just repositioning a fan) and have a reasonably good idea whether you did good or not.

[Detale]

AHA I was playing around with the config of speedfan and I can across this
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7175/configspeedfanhj6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So the Core is my Grafix card right? If so 44 isn't a bad number right

[clocker]

AHA I was playing around with the config of speedfan and I can across this
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7175/configspeedfanhj6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So the Core is my Grafix card right? If so 44 isn't a bad number right
Yup and yup.
BTW...if you highlight the names on that page and then repeatedly click (both right and left) on them you can trick it into allowing renaming.
Like so...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Air2.jpg

[Detale]

I'm experimenting with a second 120mm fan to do the same thing for the (now fanless) Southbridge sink.

As for the Southbridge...all of the s939 boards I've seen come stock with a cheesy little fan/sink combo.
Typically, they are noisy and fail quickly (Abits were notorious for this).
This aftermarket sink just uses the two holes of the stock fan to install. I didn't use the plastic pushpins, instead substituting screws and nuts to get a good, firm mount.



As for the 120mm fan I see now its like on newer cases where they have mounting for a fan on the side of the case just opposit the CPU fan and sometimes even a "cone" so the intake is isolated. But in some of the examples you've shown here there does not appear to be a crossbrace
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/side4.jpg

Also correct me if Im wrong but I believe this to be a system you have/had and what kind of fans are those on the bottom. I like the black blades with the transparent case

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/server2.jpg


Now I want to try out some southbridge cooling as my current one has nothing no fan/heatsink, but will it improve my system performance or is it just a minor thing to play around with and not take to seriously?

[AmpeD]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/SemiDone.jpg nice sennheiser e150's
I got those too :)

[clocker]

nice sennheiser e150's
I got those too :)
Yeah, j2 turned me on to these.

[sgtsamson]

Makes me think time to go back and build another liquid cooling machine this air cooled runs about 94 degrees all the time and it has the KAMA Cross CPU Cooler

[Detale]

I thought this was pic worthy. Damn good looking cooler
KAMA Cross CPU Cooler

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/35-185-045-02.jpg

[clocker]

Sgt...first of all, 94° (I assume F) ain't all that bad- just under 35°C.

Secondly, the very first thing I thought when I saw that cooler was "I'll bet it would run a whole lot better if the ends were enclosed".

Do us a favor please and just make a quick cardboard piece shaped like so...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/KamaX.jpg
*actually, make TWO pieces- one for each side...*
You could probably use a rubber band to hold them in place temporarily.

Since air is essentially a lazy medium it will always take the path of least resistence, in this case just spilling out the sides rather than flowing through the fins.
Block off the sides (and if you were really into it, the gap at the bottom as well) and force the air to fully cool the fins and I'd bet the temp would drop significantly, maybe as much as 4-5°C.

Try it and let us know...

[Detale]

5hit I want to get one just to try that now...I think I have a problem I need a 12 step computer program :P

[clocker]

...I think I have a problem I need a 12 step computer program :P
Here's a project that will break you...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/G5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/G5-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/G5-3.jpg
This is a brand new (the protective plastic is still layered all over it) Apple G5 case.
The Holy Grail of PC cases- and I've had some nice ones- I've been pondering on this project for a couple of years now.
Just dug it out to stare at again, I'm sorely tempted to finally take some power tools to it.

The trick is how to mount a suitable PC motherboard/backplane (pictured is an aluminum Lian-li part I bought just for this conversion) without trashing the aesthetics of the case.

I've seen build logs on other fori where this has been attempted but they never seem to reach conclusion.
One extremely ambitious Australian attempted to remote wire a standard mobo's back I/O panel to fit the Apple's case configuration.
Another guy tried to seemlessly integrate a Lian-li part like mine into the perforated mesh body.
He drilled millions of matching holes, used lots of Bondo and JB Weld and looked like he was on the home stretch then dropped off the face of the net.

I would be happy to complete a job that looked good (if not undetectable) but have yet to muster the nerve to begin.
T'aint like these cases are real common and I tend to veer off on tangents...

[Detale]

Well you know you have my vote to do it, but thats a $300 case to start hacking it up. Am I mistaken or did Lian Li get sued by Apple for making a very similar case? IMHO I think the best course of action would be to wire the MoBo I/O panel to meet the case instead of cutting the case. What ever you decide I can't wait to see it please post as many pics as you can.

[clocker]

IMHO I think the best course of action would be to wire the MoBo I/O panel to meet the case instead of cutting the case.
Although that might be the most elegant solution, in the real world there are two major issues that mitigate against it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/G5-4.jpg

As you can see, the Apple backplane is very different than a standard PC's and the motherboard standoffs (see second pic above) don't correspond to a regular board.
Even worse, those standoffs are not removable- they are swaged/pressed into the aluminum.
To further complicate matters I can't even tell if the motherboard tray is actually the exterior side panel or a separate piece.

The case is entirely screwed together and there must be close to 150 Torx screws used.
Just disassembling it to see what's what is a major operation.

Also, assume I was able to wire a mobo to fit...it wouldn't be possible to just swap out boards without doing it all over again.

You can see as well that Apple doesn't use a standard power supply, nor will it be easy to adapt one. Once a standard backplane is grafted on there probably isn't enough room to mount a PSU above or below due to the curved corners.

As if all of this wasn't daunting enough, this case did not come with any of the interior structure- whatever that may be- so there is no provision for mounting drives.
The front panel has an opening for an optical drive (probably a slot load by the looks and size) but no easy way to affix said drive.

I think the Apple PSU must fit on the casefloor, kind of like some early Dells, and be a long flat rectangle.
Probably the hard drive mounts on top of that.

So you can see the problem here- even after the motherboard is mounted, everything else has to be shoehorned in around it and it's all custom work.

These are the reasons (and there are probably others I haven't thought of yet) why this case has sat untouched for two years- simultaneously the object of desire and fear.

Edit:
Found the two pertinent threads.
Mr. Bean's. (http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=121671&highlight=bean)
and
Cyprio's. (http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=125218)
Mr. Bean's is my favorite approach but he never finished.
Note that both project logs are over a year long which just shows how involved this conversion can be...or how lazy the modders are.

[Detale]

I wish I could give it a try, I gotta get my hands on a case like that

[clocker]

Decided to change things up a bit.

Broke out the old DFI Expert board and a passive 7300 SE nVidia card.

Kaiweiler asked me to see what watercooling stuff I might be willing to sell so I've been scrounging in boxes that have lain unexamined for months and keep coming across things I didn't remember I even had, much less why I got them in the first place.
One item is a 92 to 120mm fan adaptor, particularly odd since I can't remember ever using a 92mm fan on anything.

Whilst marveling at the serendipity of this find I unearthed a stock AMD heatpiped HS- a quite nice piece that AMD shipped willy-nilly with some dual core chips.
Turns out I have two of 'em actually.

Out of the box these sinks have an 80mm fan- admittedly, a great improvement over the old, impossible to find 70mm's of yore but not really on par with truly modern sinks.

Miraculously though, due to the fan mount shroud on the sink, the adaptor fits it perfectly, requiring but four new mount holes.
Here's the sink with the adaptor already mounted...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Adaptor1-2.jpg

And with a fan installed...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Adaptor2-2.jpg

This swap results in a far quieter unit- the larger fan moves more air at a lower RPM, moving the fan off the heatsink reduces noise from turbulance and also minimizes the effect of the hub's dead spot.
Pretty much, win-win.
In the case...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Adaptor3-1.jpg

It also struck me that as long as the PC had two 250GB SATAII drives, why not RAID 'em?
RAID0, naturally.

*If it isn't already obvious, I couldn't care less about "data integrity"...this PC is just a toy, not a mission critical machine. Besides, with all my nLite install disks and Ghost images, I can be up and running in a matter of minutes (about 20 minutes in this case) anyway.*

Sadly, moving the drives into an array precludes gathering SMART info so I can no longer monitor the drive's temp but I'm confident from past data that they are running quite cool so that's not really a concern.
Naturally, I have an new idea for the drive mounts and they'll be changing again so all bets are off anyway.

There is also a wild hair concept for the heatsink that I'm going to explore as well, so keep tuned...

[Detale]

"Wild Hair"!??? Dude you know you need to speak to me like im 6.

Also did you perm remove the fan from the southbridge or will it be making a comeback?

[lynx]

You got me thinking with that one, clocker.

I too have one of the AMD heatpipe HS, but I don't have a 92-120mm adapter. However, I do have an 80-120mm adapter and an ultra-quiet 120mm fan which will be pressed into service rather soon I suspect. No need for new mount points either. :)

Bang goes my uptime though. ;)

[clocker]

...did you perm remove the fan from the southbridge or will it be making a comeback?
See following...

Heatsink with 120mm adaptor in place...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/BlueA.jpg

Operating under the theory that bigger is better (quintessentially American thinking here), here's the 120mm adaptor topped with a 120 to 140mm adaptor...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/AA.jpg

140mm fan installed...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/AA140.jpg

Since I have more of these supersized fans and the vid card and northbridge are both running passive, gee...let's add a second one...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/280.jpg

Don't forget the front of the case...gotta be room up there too...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/540.jpg

The hard drives have been relocated to a CoolerMaster Stacker drive module...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/CM1.jpg

*Note the silicon bushings on the module's side.
Two plates fit into these and serve as the real mounts.
This isolates the drives from the case's drive bay and helps quiet the drives.

Naturally, there is a fan on the front of the unit as well...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/CM2.jpg

With the drive module installed, this is how the front of the case (under the bezel) looks...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Fannage1.jpg

With the bezel...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Blue2-1.jpg

Finally, full enclosure...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Blue3-1.jpg

Final fan total:
-3 x 120mm (includes the PSU fan)
-3 x 140mm

Preliminary (very preliminary) results show the GPU/Northbridge temp lowered by @7°C and the CPU the same as the previous 120mm fan.
It's actually possible that the CPU is slightly worse than before but ambient temps today are higher (right around 70°F/21°C) and the machine has little run time as yet, so I'm reserving judgement.

I may cut a piece of mesh to finish off the front bezel where the HDDs are but other than that, this particular odyssey is just about over.

[Detale]

AWWW but I don't want it to be over.
I have a question about fan direction here. It apperars to me that the the Top and middle fan are blowing out and the lower fan is blowing in. I was under the impression that the front fans are all supposed to be intake am I misled in thinking this?

EDIT: Is that the Mad Dog external case I see? IF so I got one yesterday :)

[clocker]

All fans are intakes, D.

No, that is a Vantec NexStar3 external SATA exclosure.

[kaiweiler]

AWWW but I don't want it to be over.


If you know clocker, you know that it is never over.

[Detale]

I certainly hope not ;P

What kind of fan is the top one Clocker, it sure is snappy looking like a bomber engine.
Also do you know of a way to add fans like you did here if you dont have a cross brace?

Also Clocker I think you need your own sticky called " What awesome project Clocker is up to now"
Hows the G5 case coming?? I'm dying to see it

[clocker]

If you know clocker, you know that it is never over.
This is true.

BTW, K., so far I've found 3 rads, various chipset/CPU blocks and a cherry reservoir.
Will PM you with pics, probably Sat.



What kind of fan is the top one Clocker, it sure is snappy looking like a bomber engine.
Also do you know of a way to add fans like you did here if you dont have a cross brace?


All the case fans are from Aerocool and feature lots of blades, blue LED lighting (which we all know, makes things run cooler...) and the 120's have that "bomber nosecone" thingie.
It's removeable if space or aesthetics are an issue.

How to add side fans would depend on the case.
Note that in this last configuration none of the fans are attached to the crossbrace so it's just in the way mostly.
In the past though, I've used round aluminum rod (usually 1/2" diameter) to serve as structural/mounting elements.

Here's a hard drive mount I made a few years ago in another Gateway server case...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/HDD2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/mini-HDDcradle.jpg

You can tell that's old by the SATA converter on an IDE drive...back when SATA drives were a rarity and few boards supported it.

One server case had drives and motherboard suspended like that...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/3stripped.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/7firstinstall.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/10protofit2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/progress.jpg

Ah, the memories.

[kaiweiler]

Ooooh I remember that project. It was a couple of years ago, but it motivated me to attempt one of my biggest project failures yet. haha
Thanks for that clocker...

[clocker]

I live to inspire failure in others.
You're welcome.

[Detale]

Damn I need a failed project. I find myself looking on craigslist for people throwing computer stuff away and thinking of what Odd item I can attempt to make a case out of, I have yet to have a feasible idea, but it will come I'm sure. I like the aluminum rail idea a whole lot. Did you abandon the idea completely or do you still use it?

[clocker]

That PC was completed, used for a bit and then stripped so the parts could morph into something else.
Pretty standard really.

[kaiweiler]

Little miss sprocket had more plastic surgeries than a runway.