Me-oh-my...backsliding

[clocker]

My name is clocker and I'm a cooling junkie.

There, I said it.

Since this summer, Sprocket and I have been muddling along with semi-antiquated hardware shoehorned into an ancient Gateway case.
Aircooled.

Well, my platform isn't changing (yet) but around Christmas I moved back into the Silverstone TJ07 case and started upgrading the HSF.

Went through three units- two Zalmans and a SilenX.
They all worked acceptably, with the nod going to the Zalmans because they were quieter but aircooling just doesn't engage my inner hardware freak.
It's just too simple.

Tonight I stopped into Microcenter (needed some DVDs) and started browsing their BYOPC (Build Your Own PC) section.
Microcenter actually carries a somewhat reasonable selection of non-crap watercooling gear- some DangerDen and Swiftech stuff along with the dreadful Thermaltake junk.
Oh oh.
Just back away, boy.

The.Flesh.Is.Weak.

I folded.

Starting tomorrow I'll document my downfall.

[Broken]

Good luck to you.
I'm really finding that water cooling is going out of style lately.

Most of the new processors will over-clock like made on just air.
It's really about how many cores can be squeezed onto a die and how efficient they are instead of a gigahertz. We've been stuck at the 3GHz barrier since about '99, almost ten years! Even today there's not a stock processor that runs at 4GHz.

[HyperNode]

My name is clocker and I'm a cooling junkie.

O RLY? I have ATX systems running both on AC/WC when it comes to cooling.

The lowest ACed temp system I am running here has 2x120mm fans mounted on side panel to intake air. While 2x80mm fans mounted on back case to out take air, 1x80mm on the HD bay, 1x80mm CPU fan, 2x80mm PSU fan, 2x43mm vents in PCI ext slot outing air. With this I get 31C cpu temp on full load, 29C sys temp, depending on the HD that is being used I get 27C running or 22C idle, but his system sounds like a jet engine.

Now here comes WCed sealed glass case system. With just 2x80mm PSU fan and 1x80mm fan mounted on HD bay. Using the pumps case on ram, cpu, single baseOS hd, with built in exs on the raditor for circulation air insied the sealed case. I get 4-8C cpu temp depending on the scaled cpu speed based on min, nml, max load avg. The case temp is 17C thanks to exs favor, while the base OS is 14C but all other hds is between 20-22C.

PS: I am not a cooling junkie nor I waste my time playing games but I have some very adv systems just at home as mini-cluster. Also I am in FL so my weather plays overall key role.

[Detale]

OOO clocker YOU DO LOVE ME!!. I love these!

[S!X]

What's "Microcenter" :unsure:

[HyperNode]

We've been stuck at the 3GHz barrier since about '99, almost ten years! Even today there's not a stock processor that runs at 4GHz.

Who is we? you ONLY speak for yourself as a home consumer. Now you have been stuck at that CR but does not mean anyone else is limited to that CR. If you want to run at faster CR you can pick Intel based CPUs or you can pick IBM/Sun based cpus as you must have the MONEY to buy it to run over 4+ghz at its native CR without OCing. Now I am taking you NEVER heard about IBM's P arct based cpus like P5/P6? They can easily hit over 6ghz with no problem.

PS: Far as 4ghz goes for home users you can always buy Intels Q6660 and up line cpu's and OC it as you will have no problem hiting 4ghz. For price wise and for home user that is well over enough.

[clocker]

Good luck to you.
I'm really finding that water cooling is going out of style lately.

Most of the new processors will over-clock like made on just air.

My previous WC attempts have never really been about overclocking anyway.
I'm more interested in creating a thermally stable case environment and keeping things quiet.
And I like configuring the hardware.



My name is clocker and I'm a cooling junkie.

O RLY? I have ATX systems running both on AC/WC when it comes to cooling.

The lowest ACed temp system I am running here has 2x120mm fans mounted on side panel to intake air. While 2x80mm fans mounted on back case to out take air, 1x80mm on the HD bay, 1x80mm CPU fan, 2x80mm PSU fan, 2x43mm vents in PCI ext slot outing air. With this I get 31C cpu temp on full load, 29C sys temp, depending on the HD that is being used I get 27C running or 22C idle, but his system sounds like a jet engine.

Now here comes WCed sealed glass case system. With just 2x80mm PSU fan and 1x80mm fan mounted on HD bay. Using the pumps case on ram, cpu, single baseOS hd, with built in exs on the raditor for circulation air insied the sealed case. I get 4-8C cpu temp depending on the scaled cpu speed based on min, nml, max load avg. The case temp is 17C thanks to exs favor, while the base OS is 14C but all other hds is between 20-22C.

PS: I am not a cooling junkie nor I waste my time playing games but I have some very adv systems just at home as mini-cluster. Also I am in FL so my weather plays overall key role.
Pics are required.
I have no idea what "exs favor" is but I'd love to see how a case is kept at 62 degrees.


What's "Microcenter" :unsure:
It's a big box computer store.
Think CompUSA that doesn't suck.
You could actually build a very nice PC from parts off the shelf and they aren't a year behind Newegg.
Obviously, no B&M is going to be as cutting edge as an etailer but they try.
The staff is fairly knowledgeable as well.
Surprisingly, some of their prices undercut the internet also.

So, on to the hardware.
This next item is actually the main reason for the project.
A waterpump/CPU block combo...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/apogee2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/apogee1.jpg

Based on the Swiftech Apogee waterblock and the Laing DDC pump- both of which I've used successfully in previous builds- this new "Apogee Drive" integrates the two into a compact multi-platform unit.

This is the main building block of the Swiftech WC kits and allows for a very simple, clean install- just the Drive and a radiator.
Although generally well reviewed as a kit, the weak spot has been the rather small radiators they use.
Fortunately, I am not so constrained.

The SS case will easily accommodate a triple rad and it just so happens that I have an almost brand new Hardware Labs 320 sitting around...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/cwrad.jpg

Fannage will be provided by three Scythe S-Flex SSF21E low-noise fans...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/s-flex.jpg

Now, the Swiftech kit's radiator incorporates a fill port but the rad I have does not, so I either have to run a t-line or a reservoir in this loop.
I have this rez...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/finrez.jpg

...and shall mock it up for the initial test fit and see how it fits.

Since the barbs on the Apogee Drive are fixed, I'll have to see how it lays out when installed and go from there.

Although I have chipset and GPU blocks as well, neither will be used in the interest of keeping this simple.
The radiator was previously installed in the TJ, so that's ready to install...about the only fabbing I have to do is mounting the reservoir- assuming I decide to use it.

Should be operational by the end of the day.

[HyperNode]

Pics are required.
I have no idea what "exs favor" is but I'd love to see how a case is kept at 62 degrees.

My bad idk why I typed "favor" but post to be vapor (duh should always poof read). But sys running with case temp of 16-17C/60-62F is nothing as you can easily do it, cpu temp is what matters (even if you dont OC). Now if you really worried about cooling you should seal your case and circulate the air inside but don't intake/outake it as you would normally do. Keep in mind the cpu temp will always depend on the load avg, now I am scaling my cpu so I have 3 setting for min/nml/max running depending on the task.

PS: Well here are some photo below taken with OptiCam 1M+ (sorry not up to the standards when it comes to photography) hope this will do beacuse no way in hell will I ever shutdown this working system and then open the case to take some photo. You cant really see the temp on the panel as this cam is old but ill try to take photo later and see what happens and post back.

http://www.freewebs.com/bot-resurrection/HyperNode/001.jpghttp://www.freewebs.com/bot-resurrection/HyperNode/002.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/bot-resurrection/HyperNode/003.jpghttp://www.freewebs.com/bot-resurrection/HyperNode/004.jpg

[clocker]

So you run a phase change setup?
Still not exactly clear what "vapor" is...

Anyways, Sprocket is up and running again.
Pretty simple once I got the install sequence down.

Seemed easier (and more prudent) to remove the motherboard for the block install.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Paste.jpg

This actually saved my ass as the original location of the exit hose clamp barrel would have damaged a capacitor and I'd never have noticed if I was just looking straight down on the board.
Being able to sight across the board made the contact apparent before I began tightening things down.
Bullet #1 evaded.

Next came mounting the reservoir and redoing the placement of the PSU and the fan controller.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/doneback.jpg

Finally, the radiator was slid into place and the tubing connected.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/test1-1.jpg

Now the loop was first filled with water and a visual exam for leaks.
Then, using an old AT power supply, the pump was primed and the loop bled of air.
Then the rez was topped off, the system sealed and a test run of 2 hours was started...I went to lunch.

With no nasty surprises awaiting me, I finished neatening up the wiring and was ready to hook 'er up.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/doneloop.jpg

The noisiest thing in the case now is the vid card.
Rather annoying, it is.

Initial temps seem to be about 10c lower.

[Detale]

I'm sure you will devise way to water cool that too :P

[clocker]

I'm sure you will devise way to water cool that too :P
No need for "devising"...I have a full coverage DangerDen block sitting in my desk drawer.
Not gonna use it though, for two interconnected reasons.

The card is an old 6800GT and is scheduled for replacement at some point (as is the entire system actually) and watercooling the vid card adds complexity to the system out of proportion to the benefits.

Right now, I could undo two screws and have the Apogee Drive off the CPU and the motherboard is free.
Add the vid card into the loop and everything gets a whole lot harder.

If I had a decent card to work with, my attitude might be different but as it sits the maintenence issues outweigh the value of the card.

Also, the configuration of the Apogee Drive's barbs really limits hose routing options.
It was clearly designed as a CPU-only application (although they claim that you can add other blocks to the loop) and adding the vid card would probably triple the amount of tubing required.
Minimizing the tube runs is a good thing- this is not an especially high output pump anyway and the aesthetics of the loop are better with less hose.

I have a backup 7200 card that is passive and that's probably the easiest solution.

Now for basic performance info.
Bear in mind that this info does not constitute a rigorous evaluation of the waterloop but given the bounds of my limited equipment, I feel it does show some relative results.

Prior to converting, my aircooled idle temps ran to the mid to high twenties.
I never bothered stress testing while under air.

To get an idea of room ambient I used a Craftsman InfraRed thermometer...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/AmbOrth1.jpg
That's 16.8°c, BTW.
Just a foot to the right of the case is a window (closed) and outdoor temp is @ -12°c so yeah, it's a bit nippy this morning.

I ran a stress test called Orthos (http://sp2004.fre3.com/beta/beta2.htm) (works both cores) for twenty minutes.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Orthos1jpg.jpg
Temps had pretty much stabilized after five minutes and varied little after that, so twenty minutes seemed adequate.
Basically, with watercooling my fully loaded temps are about the same as air-cooled idle temps.
The ▲T (the difference between ambient and CPU temps) is right at 15°c which I would consider pretty bloody good.

Next I opened the window and gave the PC a blast of arctic air.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Orthos2jpg.jpg
I have long considered building some sort of duct from the window to the PC case, this test was just to see what I might gain from doing so.
Naturally, room ambient plummeted as well...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/AmbOrth2.jpg

Brrrr.

I then stopped the stress test and idle temps were...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/IdleCorejpg.jpg

...ridiculous.

All in all, a fairly revealing- if not terribly comfortable- experiment.

Finally- for the curious and skeptical- a shot of a few of the air cooling methods I tried...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Airsinks.jpg

None of them are absolute state-of-the-art but they aren't complete dogs, either.
If I were to go back, I'd probably use the Zalman 7700 (essentially, the oldest of the designs shown) as it had the best performance/noise ratio of the group.
The Zalman 9500 outperformed it's older sibling but the fan had a very annoying click, a failing I considered remedying by removing the proprietary fan and sandwiching the sink with two 120mm Scythes.
That probably would have been stellar and I may do it at some point just to see but for now it'll just go back on the shelf.

I may go to Home Depot and check out my ducting options today.
If anything happens, I'll let you know.

[Detale]

No need for "devising"...I have a full coverage DangerDen block sitting in my desk drawer.

Dude is there anything you don't have in that desk??

Sexy hand BTW :P

[backlash]

impressive work. you're my hero. :wub:

[clocker]

Just doin my job, ma'am.

[kaiweiler]

I like that TJ-07 case, I've been debating ordering myself a P182 all week...

[clocker]

I hated the P180/182's that I worked with.

The whole compartmented bottom section with the fan in the middle is a PITA for wire management.
Plus, I'm not fond of cases with doors.

[kaiweiler]

Really? hmm I've read that it had excellent wire management...
And I like the door, I'm looking for a clean case and only use my DVD drive once a week at max.
Did you paint the inside of that TJ07, or did it come black? Either way it is a nice looking case.

[clocker]

It's painted with Hammertone black and I flipped the motherboard.

As pretty and unique in terms of construction as the TJ is, it's not really very good value for the money.
Perfectly suited for watercooling but probably not great for aircooling.

As far as the P182 goes...we only built two PCs into that case and had trouble wiring both.
Pay special attention to the location of the power connectors on your motherboard because it can be a long haul from the bottom mounted power supply.

Both systems also ran hotter than I'd prefer (admittedly they used the OEM heatsinks) and I wasn't convinced the case was all that much quieter than better cooled cases- silence being the case's supposed strong point.

To it's credit, the P series does have a very understated, even elegant, look (except for the semi-cheesy roof vent) and it's not terribly costly.

[Acid_death69]

Wow thats nuts that you managed to get your core temps to -4 and 10C. i can only get mine down to 24C but thats using aircooled.

[Acid_death69]

:w00t:

[Acid_death69]

Wow thats nuts that you managed to get your core temps to -4 and 10C. i can only get mine down to 24C but thats using aircooled.

[Acid_death69]

Wow thats nuts that you managed to get your core temps to -4 and 10C. i can only get mine down to 24C but thats using aircooled.

[Acid_death69]

Wow thats nuts that you managed to get your core temps to -4 and 10C. i can only get mine down to 24C but thats using aircooled.

[clocker]

Yes, it is nuts.

I tried two experiments yesterday...one went well, the other not so much.

I fabbed up a crude duct from the window to the radiator- gotta love FomeCor and duct tape- and ran the machine for a while.
Temps- as expected- were absurdly low but there was a dealkiller side effect.

The TJ's sidepanels have grills on both sides in the lower quadrant.
As designed, these allow for a cross ventilation of the hard drive racks which I've removed in favor of the radiator.
With the duct in place, all the frigid air now passes through the rad and spills out the other side of the case, effectively freezing my right hand.
The computer seems happy enough but I was miserable.

Have to rethink this arrangement.

I had considered mounting the rad remotely- basically, move it over to the window and have external lines run out the case.
This would certainly solve one issue but complicates/compromises moving the case around.

Ah well, temps are perfectly acceptable as is, so I don't have to make any decisions yet.

The second experiment was much more successful.

Previously I had complained that the video card was noisy, so I replaced it with a lower spec, but passively cooled, unit.
The ensuing silence revealed a rather irritating pump hum.

Keep in mind that I'm being picky here- many wouldn't even notice this hum and with a modicum of ambient room noise, it would be unnoticeable.

I cobbled up an adaptor to go from the pump's 4-pin Molex to a standard three pin fan header and hooked the pump to my fan controller.
Slowing the pump from it's stock (12v) speed of 3200 RPM down to @ 1700RPM completely kills the hum with no appreciable rise in temps.

The only downside to this is that the fan won't start at the reduced voltage, so when the PC is turned on the pump has to be set at full voltage and then ramped down.
This is awkward due to the fan controller's placement at the back of the machine, so I may move it to the front for convenience.
This will require a bit of teardown but no big deal, really.

That's all for now.

[kaiweiler]

Wow thats nuts that you managed to get your core temps to -4 and 10C. i can only get mine down to 24C but thats using aircooled.

By an open window with -12c air flowing through it, but yeah still a nice temperature!

[Acid_death69]

How on earth did i manage to do so many of the same posts:s

[Detale]

@ acid
Something I'v been noticing alot lately I think it is the board lagging or something




I cobbled up an adaptor to go from the pump's 4-pin Molex to a standard three pin fan header and hooked the pump to my fan controller.
Slowing the pump from it's stock (12v) speed of 3200 RPM down to @ 1700RPM completely kills the hum with no appreciable rise in temps.



HA! You said Cobbled I love it! This sounds great, but I want to see the hand again PLEASE!!!

[delimare]

Clocker, you never fail to entertain me!

I have a Microcenter not more than 4 blocks from my place of employment. It is a wonderful retreat when the fluorescent lighting in my office starts to play mind games with my eyes.