vipv2 goes p2l, lies, exploits, silences

[alexhard]

First things first, vipv2 has instituted a "donation" scheme. Of course this is not truly a donation, but a transaction. According to the donation page, "donors" will not get auto-banned, but will only be banned manually. They will also receive a longer time to fix their ratios.

This is not the classic give 10 bucks get 10gb type of transaction, but it is essentially the same thing. We all know that "manually banned" means "never banned", and even if they are actually banned for low ratios, they are given extra time to fix it. According to a post by a staffer, they will be given an additional month. Who has to support and balance out that low ratio for that extra month? That's right, non paying users. So the vipv2 owner is essentially selling something that isn't his to sell, the non paying users bandwidth. Additionally, that extra month gives the "donors" an extra month to leech. So, this is quite obviously a P2L scheme.

Of course nobody wants to make quick accusations, so I opened a thread and asked how much extra time will be given to donors, and if they will actually ban them manually or not. The thread was very quickly locked without a satisfactory answer by administrators. The subject is obviously very touchy to them, because a large number of people do not supoprt P2L trackers, and if their "disguised" system was highlighted as P2L, they obviously lose potential profits.

I start a second thread:


Whoa there mister administrator/moderator/whatever! Your thread locking finger is really trigger happy, isn't it? It seems P2L is a touchy subject..

P2L = Pay to Leech. Removing ratio requirements for people who pay, allows them to leech. Therefore: pay, to leech.

I don't think it's right for the tracker administrator to sell MY bandwidth, so I have deleted all my uploaded torrents, and I ask you to delete my account (where did delacct.php go?).

I wish you the very best for the future..actually, I don't. I hope you get fucking owned like Ersan..it should be fun seeing a scenenotice about you guys

bye bye!

My account is then deleted/banned as I asked, but an administrator edits my post to say "im gay bye bye". Afraid of the truth, are we? You want a lexus like ersan, too, don't you? That's how a business operates: when it cannot reply with arguments, it silences.

After a while someone replied and asked why they edited my post. He was banned almost immediately.

This is quite obviously the behaviour of businessmen, not pirates. This is the behaviour of people that want to profit from others work (sceners rips, users bandwidth and HDD space), not the work of people who believe in the freedom of information and freedom of speech.


A friend of mine had a very large number of vipv1 collections, lets see a conversation beween him and an administrator:


<DrJ> hello
<xOiNk> may i ?
<DrJ> whats the problem?
<xOiNk> ok here we go
<xOiNk> i have MOST of the VIP1 collections
<xOiNk> on a pretty fast ftp
<xOiNk> and as vipv2 stays NON p2l
<xOiNk> i am willing to help in anyway
<xOiNk> i can FXP all of them to u
<DrJ> v2 will never have any sort of donations for credit scheme
<DrJ> can you make a list of the collections for me and pastebin.com it?
<xOiNk> sure
<xOiNk> nope
<xOiNk> fuck pastebin
<xOiNk> privacy ftw
<xOiNk> screenshot
<xOiNk> wait a sec
<xOiNk> ;)

After that he FXPd tens of gigabytes in tens of collections. (There are logs to prove that if anyone is a skeptic).

Now, there are two alternatives here:
1) The only P2L system the administrator can imagine is a credit scheme, in which case he is a useless idiot that shouldn't be running a torrent tracker.
2) He is lying.

I have a hard time believing that he is a complete moron (even though the large number of bugs on the site would indicate otherwise), so I must go with no 2. Lying and exploiting other peoples good will to help, simply in order to increase their profits. They probably kill kittens, too.

If no 1 is the case, then I don't see why anyone would want an account on a website that is run by an idiot. Think about your security people!

Even if you don't care about P2L, I urge you: don't support these people. They are not pirates, they are not file sharers. They are profiteering, lying gluttons, and they have no place in our file sharing world.

PS: IRC logs courtesy of xOiNk :)

[slimdogp]

Giving a little incentive for donating isn't a bad thing, and I don't think they're profiteering. Sounds to me like you have some kind of personal problem with the staff there and you're trying to skew public opinion in your favor.

Get a life

[stoi]

i cant speak for other trackers, imo they are free to do what they wish to get donations in and i wont judge them for however they go about it.

but we have just got rid off all "perks" i wouldnt realy call it p2l as it wasnt, but they did get perks. (we did bring the star back though)

and i have to say donations have dropped through the floor, we have till the end of the month before i start to panic though.

My point is though, lots and lots of trackers have incentives to get the members to donate, and tbh what i have read with this one, is tame compared to some others i have heard about.

But im also not here to judge either, they can do what they want and as long as they meet the server costs, thats all that matters in the end. having no incentives is how trackers go under (we have 50,000 members and are struggling, just think about a tracker with a 10/th of our userbase)

[seppypom]

i fell asleep half through that post, but it sounds like you have an issue because you where banned from a site that i have never heard of!

------------------------------------
plus i just noticed this was your first post.

[1000possibleclaws]

your post hasn't made me change my good opinion of vipv2, as seppypom said, it sounds like you're just mad at a site that kicked you

[digitalism]

dude relax.. how many forums are you going to post this on? vipv2 isn't even p2l.. and you would have known that from the explanation the sysop gave instead of ranting like an idiot and demanding to have you account disabled.

[Mistral]

as long as they meet the server costs, thats all that matters in the end. having no incentives is how trackers go under (we have 50,000 members and are struggling, just think about a tracker with a 10/th of our userbase)

I think where the money comes from is just as important. There are plenty of trackers that don't have incentives and manage just fine. Clearly the majority of your 50,000 members aren't putting in the effort and don't care about the site. Or, they are unaware of how serious the situation is.

[Zeus]

So another site went P2L and you dont like it... In that case move on quietly. Trolling their forums and then moaning about it here wont achieve anything. The rights and wrongs of p2l have been debated for ages but at the end of the day, love it or hate it, it's here to stay.

[hulken]

I can't remember all the places that you have posted this shit on, and they all get closed down eventually, because noone wants to hear about some whining kid that doesn't like a particular site.

The only reason I bother replying to this is because I find these forums a respectable place, and I won't have to read shit like this but a mature conversation.

The fact that you disrespect everyone that does something for the site makes me sick, you obviously don't know how to run a torrent site, and I would be glad if you would, because then you would know nothing comes for free.

Up until the point when ViPv2 started taking donations it was privately funded, servers and all the hardware that was to run the site was bought out of our own pockets because we have a loving community that enjoys what we do for them, we couldn't just leave them all behind.

And you can't even imagine all the hours, days, weeks, all the long nights that was spent for debugging the TBDEV code (if you'd know how to program you would just shut the fuck up).

We constantly work on the site, everyday, making new features for our users and improving the site, and it's all there for the grabs, even for people who don't appriciate our work, those who don't know how much energy and time and foremost, money, we put into this.

The donations are to keep the site running, to pay the server bills, and since we love our strong community so much, why not give them something extra? And those who like our community can have a better chance of sticking around because of donations, not everyone has a 100mbit swedish phat-pipe they can seed with.

There was never a P2L feature, there never will be, people who have a bad connection can donate to get an extra month's worth of getting their ratio fixed, it's not "another month of leech", their download and upload would still count the same.

The benefits of donations were never set either, the "get an extra month" was an idéa we had but wasn't even set final when you started your flaming.

I won't bother quoting your shit because it's a fucking waste to read.

[Tokeman]

your post hasn't made me change my good opinion of vipv2, as seppypom said, it sounds like you're just mad at a site that kicked you
First, he requested to be removed, so no vengeance there, did you even read the whole post?
And yes, the tracker admins DO have the ability to do what they wish, but given the conversation recorded, some one offered to help a great deal with content, so long as a p2l system was not going to be considered. The admin agreed, and now here is the p2l system anyway. That is a lie, no matter what power the admins have over the site, lying is not one of them. He should have simply told that person that it may or may not be an option, instead of boldly lying.
What a garbage site, glad I"m not a member there.

I feel half the responders in this thread only read a few lines, due to a lot of p2l posts being posted lately. This one is different, and if you actually took the time to read the WHOLE thing you'd understand. You are just showing your ignorance by posting in a thread you have not read.

[pandabear]

Tokeman, posted one of the few posts which actually understood the issue. I personally think the site hasn't really gone to p2l, but rather a bit like bcg used to have, with advatages for donating. All the same to see the admin lie about the p2l system being put to place, isn't good.

[hulken]

The reason why the hard alex thinks that an administrator was lying was due to the fact that the administrator wasn't aware of any donation-related topics , EVEN though he said there will never be a credit scheme, which is true.. because there are none.

[nsap]

No one really cares you two. You were already banned at one site for this bullshit. Take your little pissing contest into the middle of a very busy freeway.

[th0r]

<3 alexhard, i read your angst-ridden essay ;p

[locodice]

so you have issues, deal with them quietly, we don't care m8 :D

[typeoholic]

I can't say I've had a run in with the admin/staff there, but I will state that the forum trollers are a bunch of smart mouth jerks, and unnecessarily so. Maybe not all of them, I'm sure, but the ones that I have run across are.

[grimms]

i cant speak for other trackers, imo they are free to do what they wish to get donations in and i wont judge them for however they go about it.

but we have just got rid off all "perks" i wouldnt realy call it p2l as it wasnt, but they did get perks. (we did bring the star back though)

and i have to say donations have dropped through the floor, we have till the end of the month before i start to panic though.

My point is though, lots and lots of trackers have incentives to get the members to donate, and tbh what i have read with this one, is tame compared to some others i have heard about.

But im also not here to judge either, they can do what they want and as long as they meet the server costs, thats all that matters in the end. having no incentives is how trackers go under (we have 50,000 members and are struggling, just think about a tracker with a 10/th of our userbase)

Stoi if your struggling to pay the bill due to lack of donations i would bring the perks back just leave the seeding and leeching policy in tact which is a very good and strict one. Honestly? I don't see nothing wrong with a site offering GB or email accounts etc. I do feel it is wrong if you give perks and members dismiss the rules just because they get added benefits for donating. Shouldn't be cheating, scamming, hit or running on torrents at all or face getting automatically ip banned.

[digitalism]

I can't say I've had a run in with the admin/staff there, but I will state that the forum trollers are a bunch of smart mouth jerks, and unnecessarily so. Maybe not all of them, I'm sure, but the ones that I have run across are.

hmm.. i've always found the forums quite friendly actually

[Mistral]

Honestly? I don't see nothing wrong with a site offering GB

Allow me to enlighten you.

Apart from the fact it's selling warez, which clearly does not fit in with the definition of donation, tracker staff will say "don't cheat your ratio, it's bad, we'll ban you", then say "but if you give us your cash we'll do the cheating for you. Yay! Pay2cheat ftw!"

Ratio is a measurement, nothing else, it's certainly not an excuse to scam the gullible. Yet, for some reason, it's become perfectly acceptable to abuse that system in order to make a profit by selling regular members bandwidth. Paying customers are now favoured above regular filesharers.

Btw, I don't have anything against other "perks" as long as they have nothing to do with the filesharing aspect.

;)

[bikernin]

that way many sites accept donations for upload. ever been on revtt?? why target this one in particualar. certainly seems like you had some kind of a squabble there. may be the OP should rename himself alex got it hard :P j/k

[orfik]

Despite what anyone says, I'd bet my house that every torrent administration seeks to profit from user donations. It's just human nature. Go to ANY tracker and ask if you can audit their finances. You'd get banned so fast it would make your head spin. Just the way of the world, buddy. It's why Communism doesn't work.

[grimms]

Allow me to enlighten you.

Apart from the fact it's selling warez, which clearly does not fit in with the definition of donation, tracker staff will say "don't cheat your ratio, it's bad, we'll ban you", then say "but if you give us your cash we'll do the cheating for you. Yay! Pay2cheat ftw!"

Ratio is a measurement, nothing else, it's certainly not an excuse to scam the gullible. Yet, for some reason, it's become perfectly acceptable to abuse that system in order to make a profit by selling regular members bandwidth. Paying customers are now favoured above regular filesharers.

Btw, I don't have anything against other "perks" as long as they have nothing to do with the filesharing aspect.

;)

I've been enlightened and disagree with you on one point. For those very few trackers out there that offer GB and practically promote "If you pay for GB, will let you do anything" type attitude, yes i disagree. But there are plenty of sites that offer GB and they are extremely strict with their rules and how they want their tracker to be portrayed. BitmeTv is a prime example. They offer GB for donating but do they accept cheaters, scammers, or hit and runners. Nope, you'll be disabled or banned before you can download your next favorite tv show via .torrent file.


Despite what anyone says, I'd bet my house that every torrent administration seeks to profit from user donations. It's just human nature.

Do i think every torrent Administrator or SysOp wants to be profitable enough to keep their tracker alive and make site improvements? Yes. Do I think they all want to just profit, get rich quick and screw with everyones donate money for personal gains? No. Maybe some cause that is human nature, but i thinkt he percentage is really small. I unfortunately some admins have set a bad example, but others continue to be the reason why it's good to be apart of the BT Community. I think Brandon from FTN is a good example of that.

[orfik]

Despite what anyone says, I'd bet my house that every torrent administration seeks to profit from user donations. It's just human nature.

Do i think every torrent Administrator or SysOp wants to be profitable enough to keep their tracker alive and make site improvements? Yes. Do I think they all want to just profit, get rich quick and screw with everyones donate money for personal gains? No. Maybe some cause that is human nature, but i thinkt he percentage is really small. I unfortunately some admins have set a bad example, but others continue to be the reason why it's good to be apart of the BT Community. I think Brandon from FTN is a good example of that.[/quote]

Those are unnecessary extremes. The question is, how many fail to report exactly how much they receive in donations and where each penny is going? The answer is "All of them". Do they all skim off the top and spend the profit on themselves. Probably not. But again, I'd bet the house on a high number.

[Mistral]

BitmeTv is a prime example. They offer GB for donating but do they accept cheaters, scammers, or hit and runners. Nope, you'll be disabled or banned before you can download your next favorite tv show via .torrent file.

That may well be in the rules, but then why would anyone pay2leech? By it's very nature it's a way to circumvent sharing.

On top of that, look at the bigger picture. What happens when one of these paysites gets taken down? The authorities will have a field day, jail time and harsher punishments all round, a new standard will be set. And we'll all be tarred with the same brush.

I do agree that Brandon and the rest at FTN are examples to be followed.:yup:

Unfortunately greed is a part of human nature, but fortunately we've been gifted with free will and have the choice to rise above it.

:cool:

[digitalism]

Go to ANY tracker and ask if you can audit their finances. You'd get banned so fast it would make your head spin.

i think the finances of any tracker is no ones business other than the admins anyways. so many people are concerned with where their donations are going, if you don't trust the admins then don't donate. there is atleast one tracker i can think of that post their donations for everyone to see, FSC. whether or not what they post is true.. who knows? but i trust them

edit: spelling

[orfik]

Go to ANY tracker and ask if you can audit their finances. You'd get banned so fast it would make your head spin.

i think the finances of any tracker is no ones business other than the admins anyways. so many people are concerned with where their donations are going, if you don't trust the admins then don't donate. there is atleast one tracker i can think of that post their donations for everyone to see, FSC. whether or not what they post is true.. who knows? but i trust them

edit: spelling

LOL. Sheep. Anyway, we're all crooks, so don't be shocked when your favorite admin drops your donation in his pocket. C'est la vie.

[grimms]

The question is, how many fail to report exactly how much they receive in donations and where each penny is going?

As long as they are improving the site and keeping the tracker alive it does not matter how they spend the donation money as far as the time frame. Not saying it's alright to get donation money and going out and paying your rent or car note. I mean if they take alittle money out of the donation pot for reasonale purposes and put their own money back in, then i see no problem with that. As far as reporting to us members what they do with the donation money. It's none of are business as long as the hosting bill is being paid on time and site improvements are being made.



Unfortunately greed is a part of human nature, but fortunately we've been gifted with free will and have the choice to rise above it.
:cool:

Indeed it is. In the end the choice is do you trust the trackers that you donate money too? Ask yourself that, and if you say yes to said trackers, then i think it's okay to sleep at night. If you don't? Simple. Don't donate. Unfortunately there will always be people out their with ill intentions whether we like it or not. Life is not always fair unfortunately. The game is rigged at times.

[pone44]

download only what u own and this is no worry-as backup is ok, right?

[stoi]

Despite what anyone says, I'd bet my house that every torrent administration seeks to profit from user donations. It's just human nature. Go to ANY tracker and ask if you can audit their finances. You'd get banned so fast it would make your head spin. Just the way of the world, buddy. It's why Communism doesn't work.

If its not 4 bedroom you can keep it.

:lol:

and would you let someone into your paypal from the net. didnt think so.

[SCR]

Despite what anyone says, I'd bet my house that every torrent administration seeks to profit from user donations. It's just human nature. Go to ANY tracker and ask if you can audit their finances. You'd get banned so fast it would make your head spin. Just the way of the world, buddy. It's why Communism doesn't work.
I think u might lose your house very fast ,pls don`t generalize this .There are plenty of trackers that don`t accept donation (some of them are verry good) here u can find some examples http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/f-bittorrent-43/t-about-romanian-trackers-274792/?highlight=romanian

P.S If its 4 bedroom P.M stoi for the details were to send him the papers and the keys to your house ... if not send them to me :P

[Femto]

If you can't run a site with your own money then don't run one at all. Pure and simple. Look at all these large Romanian trackers, do they have a donation button? No.

The world revolves around one so you can't blame them for wanting to buy a Lexus. :lol:

[stoi]

If you can't run a site with your own money then don't run one at all. Pure and simple. Look at all these large Romanian trackers, do they have a donation button? No.

The world revolves around one so you can't blame them for wanting to buy a Lexus. :lol:

Well i cant speak Romanian but i have looked at enough foreign hosts in my time to know a webhost or not a webhost.

Ok i went snooping the other day when i seen that these romanian trackers do not accept donations (thinking cheap servers that allow torrents and not the USA, great)

well all 3 that i checked, are hosted on an ISP, not a webhost.

Its like Comcast/AOL/Verizon\Virgin media\telewest hosting a tracker on their servers.

So that is why they do not need donations, because they are a huge ISP to start with that offer broadband and TV packcages to home users.

[SCR]

If you can't run a site with your own money then don't run one at all. Pure and simple. Look at all these large Romanian trackers, do they have a donation button? No.

The world revolves around one so you can't blame them for wanting to buy a Lexus. :lol:

Well i cant speak Romanian but i have looked at enough foreign hosts in my time to know a webhost or not a webhost.

Ok i went snooping the other day when i seen that these romanian trackers do not accept donations (thinking cheap servers that allow torrents and not the USA, great)

well all 3 that i checked, are hosted on an ISP, not a webhost.

Its like Comcast/AOL/Verizon\Virgin media\telewest hosting a tracker on their servers.

So that is why they do not need donations, because they are a huge ISP to start with that offer broadband and TV packcages to home users.
That`s true. Some off them are hosted on ISP.
And Femto ... i didn`t see a tracker that says you are forced to donate . It`s the user choice to donate or not .

[grimms]

I'd bet my house that every torrent administration seeks to profit from user donations. It's just human nature.

Is it a three bedroom home? If it is, I want your home. Send me the title and the deeds. Also your responsible for the closing cost's as well.:happy:

[Femto]

Well i cant speak Romanian but i have looked at enough foreign hosts in my time to know a webhost or not a webhost.

Ok i went snooping the other day when i seen that these romanian trackers do not accept donations (thinking cheap servers that allow torrents and not the USA, great)

well all 3 that i checked, are hosted on an ISP, not a webhost.

Its like Comcast/AOL/Verizon\Virgin media\telewest hosting a tracker on their servers.

So that is why they do not need donations, because they are a huge ISP to start with that offer broadband and TV packcages to home users.
That`s true. Some off them are hosted on ISP.
And Femto ... i didn`t see a tracker that says you are forced to donate . It`s the user choice to donate or not .

Not really. The donation button takes advantage of the individuals with poor speeds. It entices them to give money just to stay at a positive ratio in order for them to be kept on the tracker. More than half this world still have poor speeds.

As far as webhost and isp's. Look at The Pirate Bay. They managed to handle things between 4 people without donations. When Midnight-Torrents first opened-up they already had a donation button installed to keep this site alive. That's ridiculous to say the least.

When you host a site, you should be able to pay the bill, instead of asking strangers to do it for you. Thats like an individual who is trying to create a law firm with someone else's money. Simply poor businessman tactics.

I can only think of 1 site that did the donation button correctly and thats Demonoid. They had a $5 donation button which enables an extra feature which sends you an email when new torrents are posted. I know that's free with a majority of the trackers but at least they didn't entice people by offering them 10GB uploads.

Just imagine if Demonoid, the 2nd largest tracker in the world offered 10GB uploads for a fee. Deimos would be a billionaire.

[grimms]

Just imagine if Demonoid, the 2nd largest tracker in the world offered 10GB uploads for a fee. Deimos would be a billionaire.

Didn't look at it that way. So true. He probably would be. Demonoid is well known, they had over 100,000+ members.

[stoi]

your talking about 2 public torrent sites here, they must get a million view a day at least, so they have ads.

we have 200,000 views, had small ads, and we make about $7 a day off ads, these public sites must make a fortune.

so they do not need donations to survive as they have ads all over the bleeding site.

Ok i dont agree with upload for money, and we do not have that on BCG.

If you do not like the donation button, then delte your account. but i dont know many people that would pay £600/$1200 a month on a hobby

[grimms]

I don't think it's bad to donate for upload credit as long as thats not the reason why your doing it (I know could be impossible to tell). Thats just my feeling on it though. If your outright advertising and pm'ming members saying if you donate we'll give you upload, then in fact that is very wrong.

[stoi]

I don't think it's bad to donate for upload credit as long as thats not the reason why your doing it (I know could be impossible to tell). Thats just my feeling on it though. If your outright advertising and pm'ming members saying if you donate we'll give you upload, then in fact that is very wrong.

Well just look at BCG, the benefits they got for donating before were minor to say the least, but since taken them off the donations have dwindled considerably, to the point where im contemplating sending out a mass PM/Announcement.

the problem is, i hate begging for anything, and i have only ever sent out 1 announcement like it in 5 years, and that was near the start.

so to me, a lot of users just donate because they get something in return, if they dont get anything they dont donate, and lets be honest, if BCG folded (any site realy) then they would find somewhere else, or maybe 2 more would pop up overnight.

[Tokeman]

When you host a site, you should be able to pay the bill, instead of asking strangers to do it for you. Thats like an individual who is trying to create a law firm with someone else's money. Simply poor businessman tactics.



Oh really? I was under the impression that a lot of business start with an idea, then go seeking investors to get money for startup. Either that or a loan. Taking a loan for a hobby like this, don't think so... Poor business tactics? I think anyone with a great idea should be able to start a business, broke or rich, and they do, every day.

[grimms]

Well just look at BCG, the benefits they got for donating before were minor to say the least, but since taken them off the donations have dwindled considerably, to the point where im contemplating sending out a mass PM/Announcement.

the problem is, i hate begging for anything, and i have only ever sent out 1 announcement like it in 5 years, and that was near the start.

so to me, a lot of users just donate because they get something in return, if they dont get anything they dont donate, and lets be honest, if BCG folded (any site realy) then they would find somewhere else, or maybe 2 more would pop up overnight.

I would put the perks back so people donate again, but just make them well aware that, just cause they donate and get GB or whatever was done before, doesn't mean they can take advantage of the tracker, hit and run or any other bullshit. I don't know, BCG is a huge site for what it offers. It would be quite hard to replace it (maybe one day, but we could be talking 1-2 years) I don't think your begging by asking. It seems like your in a position where you need help for the survival of the tracker. I see nothing wrong with that. I think you've proven that your not asking for donations for any other reason. Remember nobody gets paid for lending their time out to a hobby. I think you and your tracker staff should have a long hard discussion to see what your options are if you choose to keep the donation system the current way it is, and for the survival of the tracker. If nobody is donating then that equals a problem. Web hosting and server bills are quite expensive and me and you both know they don't pay themselves.

[stoi]

well to me its begging lol i never like asking for money, not even off my friends or family, and it just seems that way to me with sending out a mass PM.

and you know what it will be, we are struggling this month, i send out a mass pm, we get enough to cover it, next month same scenario, it will be a mass PM every month and i dont want to go down that slippery slope at all.

the staff are in discussions though on whats going to be our next move.

[Mistral]

well to me its begging lol i never like asking for money, not even off my friends or family, and it just seems that way to me with sending out a mass PM.

I don't think it's like begging at all. Think of it as increasing the awareness of your membership. I'm willing to bet thousands of your members aren't even aware that there's a problem at all, a mass PM would sort that out.

Of course, no one likes being bombarded with flashing "U give me the monies, I give u the gigs!" type messages every other day, but an honest message informing your members that the site won't be around much longer without donations is completely different.
I think your members would appreciate that more than a sudden message saying, "Sorry, we're closing, bye." I know I would.

"Pride comes before the fall.":P

[stoi]

it also sounds to me like we cant manage to run the tracker, which we cant (monetary wise) but the members dont really need to know that.

I know you are totally anti P2L, it was reading some of your posts, that gave me the push to try the no perks approach (i was contemplating it anyway, but those were the push)

But what we offered wasnt realy P2L, there was one flaw in it though that could have been considered P2L, but if we do bring it back that gap will be filled. so that will put a halt to that.

[ohmboys]

I totaly agree with you stoi

[Mistral]

I know you are totally anti P2L, I was reading some of your posts, that gave me the push to try the no perks approach (i was contemplating it anyway, but those were the push)

Thanks for that. Nice to know that what I've said is at least considered by someone.:)

As a pessimist I find that comforting.:happy:

[1000possibleclaws]

what is wrong with P2L if its not for profit? it makes it so that a fast internet connection isn't the only way to contribute to your favorite trackers. instead of paying your isp the extra $20, you could get an average connection and then donate the 20$ for 20 gigs upload credit. Most people would probably still prefer the faster internet connection, but at least it gives an alternative that would probably contribute more to the tracker than a fast internet connection anyways.

I don't see anything wrong with blackcats old method, and there's nothing wrong with vipv2's either. If any site, it's revTT that has a problem with P2L, as they seem to be using their donations for profit, not to maintain the site, with all the 'Double Up' pms they send

[grimms]

it also sounds to me like we cant manage to run the tracker, which we cant (monetary wise) but the members dont really need to know that.

I know you are totally anti P2L, it was reading some of your posts, that gave me the push to try the no perks approach (i was contemplating it anyway, but those were the push)

But what we offered wasnt realy P2L, there was one flaw in it though that could have been considered P2L, but if we do bring it back that gap will be filled. so that will put a halt to that.

Well i guess. I hope it works out. I'll see what i can do. Finances are tight but i don't want to see a good tracker go under over money(even though thats the way of the world right now, one big huge money issue). It's hard to stretch a paycheck now days. I hope things change for the better.



If any site, it's revTT that has a problem with P2L, as they seem to be using their donations for profit, not to maintain the site, with all the 'Double Up' pms they send

Yea i defended them recently, but now i'm starting to wonder. Since i been a member they have quite a few double upload for donations and i have gotten around 5-7 pm's only advertising it.:unsure: