Men more likely to die of broken heart

[stitched]

LONDON:... Doctors have long understood the impact of grief on one's health. Now, a new study has revealed how fragile a broken heart can really be.

Researchers in Britain have found that bereft people face the risk of death in the first year of being widowed.

In fact, men are six times more likely to die of a broken heart than women.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Men_more_likely_to_die_of_broken_heart/articleshow/2925457.cms
i just copied it from an other forum... HEARTLESS WOMEN :P

[escuoop]

women have tears

[IdolEyes787]

More men die when left alone only because women are incapable of doing anything by themselves.

[clocker]

More men die when left alone only because women are incapable of doing anything by themselves.
Huh?

A M.C. Escher sentence if ever there was one.

[S3v3N]

women have tears

women have boobs .

[Mr. Mulder]

by men they mean fags, rite? :eyebrows:

[kittybewm]

All men are secretly :emo:

[Biggles]

All men are secretly :emo:

and stitched is our voice to the outside world

Fact

[Squeamous]

They're also more likely to take their kids to their graves with them when they get dumped. This is on account of them being more prone to ego-driven acts of irrationality. When it comes to emotional susceptibility to external influence I think they're the weaker sex.

[dedro]

They're also more likely to take their kids to their graves with them when they get dumped. This is on account of them being more prone to ego-driven acts of irrationality. When it comes to emotional susceptibility to external influence I think they're the weaker sex.

holy cow squeamous u don't have get to all smart on us. :noes:

[Squeamous]

Sorry :dry:

http://i25.tinypic.com/2qnxhmx.jpg

[Snee]

They're also more likely to take their kids to their graves with them when they get dumped. This is on account of them being more prone to ego-driven acts of irrationality. When it comes to emotional susceptibility to external influence I think they're the weaker sex.

I blame society. Seriously.

In the schools I went to as I grew up, you were in serious fucking trouble if you showed much emotion, like, and in even more trouble if you pointed out that whatever the fuck someone did to you wasn't all that fun.

You were supposed to be all like "Oh, you set me hand on fire using hairspray [ :ghey: ] and some matches while your mates held me down. How rare, haha". If you didn't bottle it all up, they'd set something else on fire, like. And heaven forbid you should tell anyone about it, like.

Always felt like shit telling my parents about that kind of thing too, 'cos I could tell they were worried I couldn't make it in the real world 'cos I was too sensitive, or so I thought.

When I was around 18 I'd been suppressing my feelings to the point where I didn't feel strongly about much at all, and that lasted until I was 20-ish.

I had a bit of a breakdown, eventually, and a change of personality, like. But if I'd kept on being that way, I can totally see myself going mental 'cos I couldn't handle a breakup or whatever.


I reckon it had been acceptable in a whole other way to feel bad about whatever, had I been a girl, like. It's still a fact that men really can't allow themselves to feel the same way women can, or to discuss their feelings the same way women take for granted, and still fit in. Not always and everywhere, anyway.

[Squeamous]

It's exactly the same for girls Snee. Girls suffer probably more mental torture from other girls than boys do as well as the physical violence, and yet the rates of suicide in young males are much higher than females and have been going up despite being touchy feely about emotions becoming more and more acceptable.

I think the male psyche just has a hard time dealing with the modern world.

[Snee]

It's exactly the same for girls Snee. Girls suffer probably more mental torture from other girls than boys do as well as the physical violence, and yet the rates of suicide in young males are much higher than females and have been going up despite being touchy feely about emotions becoming more and more acceptable.

I think the male psyche just has a hard time dealing with the modern world.

:idunno:

It's my impression that girls have an easier time coping with the bad stuff 'cos it's acceptable for them to deal with their feelings in ways that'd get a bloke called a sissy, even from a very tender age, like, and that that leads to a pattern of behaviour with regards to dealing with your own feelings that is much healthier in the long run.

Having never actually been a girl, like, I can't say for certain, though.

Might just be that we're behind, like, as you say :idunno: Could be all the testosterone, I suppose.

[Alien5]

i think its got a lot to do with the fact that girls chat a lot more (thousands of words per day)compared to boys. boys bottle up their feelings, that makes them depressed.

[Snee]

You're right about the mental torture, though. Girls can be harsh to the max. They make for easier targets too, 'cos of all that crap about how they have to look, and so forth.

And the psychological terror was always worse than the physical, far as I remember.

[Squeamous]

i think its got a lot to do with the fact that girls chat a lot more (thousands of words per day)compared to boys. boys bottle up their feelings, that makes them depressed.

Actually studies show men speak as much as women, it's just that women know more words :happy:.

[Squeamous]

:idunno:

It's my impression that girls have an easier time coping with the bad stuff 'cos it's acceptable for them to deal with their feelings in ways that'd get a bloke called a sissy, even from a very tender age, like, and that that leads to a pattern of behaviour with regards to dealing with your own feelings that is much healthier in the long run.

Having never actually been a girl, like, I can't say for certain, though.

Might just be that we're behind, like, as you say :idunno: Could be all the testosterone, I suppose.

Yeah, but that doesn't explain why suicide rates in men are rising despite them being more encouraged than ever to show their feelings.

[Snee]

Oh that's easy.

Those guise are idiots, like.

[Alien5]

the average woman works her way through 20,000 words per day, compared with just 7,000 for the average bloke.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/28/female_chat_addiction/

us blokes havent got time to talk, were always thinking about japan or something else.

[weenden]

yeah thats me the old lonely old f#^K who because had a nasty dissposition early in life screwed up the good relationships now im down to the cheap 5 dollah hoes ...doooh i didnt just type that did i

[Squeamous]

I think it's a biological thing. We're not that far evolved really. It was only 20,000 years ago we were settling down in fixed communities. Women were required to fabricate social cohesion while the men provided the hardware for it. The role of women was more sophisticated and as such when they decided to spread out into the role of men they adapted far better than the other way around.

[Squeamous]

the average woman works her way through 20,000 words per day, compared with just 7,000 for the average bloke.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/28/female_chat_addiction/

us blokes havent got time to talk, were always thinking about japan or something else.

Yeah, she uses 20,000 words once and he uses 7,000 words 2.86 times each.

:P

[Snee]

Genetics is hardly my field, but it can't be in our genes, can it?

Not if it's "only" been 20000 years, I mean.

:unsure:

On a loosely related note, I read richard Morgan's Black Man, a month or so ago.

It's about a bloke who's genetically engineered to be a (genetic) throwback to the time when people were hunter-gatherers. It came with an interesting outlook on human evolution. He's kind of kickass, but doesn't fit in with the rest of society all that well, too fierce, like. Super-duper alpha male kind of thing.


Book-tip, like.

[Squeamous]

That's what I mean. We're not so different to how we were 20,000 years ago physiologically speaking. We've come so far scarily fast, and I don't think our brains can cope. That is, women's cope better because we're more emotionally sophisticated on account of having to raise children, but we still don't cope brilliantly. That's why there's so much mental illness in the West I reckon....it's not all to do with better diagnosis.

Edit: Thanks for the tip by the way.

[clocker]

They're also more likely to take their kids to their graves with them when they get dumped. This is on account of them being more prone to ego-driven acts of irrationality. When it comes to emotional susceptibility to external influence I think they're the weaker sex.
Statistics say no...

Children under the age of 5 in the United States are more likely to be killed by their parents than anyone else. Contrary to popular mythology, they are rarely killed by a sex-crazed stranger. FBI crime statistics show that in 1999 parents were responsible for 57 percent of these murders, with family friends and acquaintances accounting for another 30 percent and other family members accounting for 8 percent. Crime statistics further reveal that of the children under 5 killed from 1976 to 1999, 30 percent were murdered by their mothers while 31 percent were killed by their fathers.

Rest of article here. (http://www.slate.com/id/2063086/)
Admittedly this article does not delve into the "why" (i.e., were they "dumped" beforehand?), maybe you have other info pertaining to that.

[manicgeek]

They're also more likely to take their kids to their graves with them when they get dumped. This is on account of them being more prone to ego-driven acts of irrationality. When it comes to emotional susceptibility to external influence I think they're the weaker sex.
Hmmmm.... no comment!

[stitched]

""men SHOULDNT lose interest in masterbating with or without a gf"....and that really helps when being dumped by a gal,atleast i tot it was a lot easier to make up for the loss....and also knowing there is nothing such as true love and you r gonna fall out of love eventually.",i will write a book on broken hearts and this whole phrase is copyrited^^....


yesterday i went out with somegal,and i tot since it was sunday there wouldnt be cops unfortunately i was asked to stop by a traffic police ,i didnt i gave full throttle and rodeaway at full speed,i think the police made a note of my number,it was all because of the gal...i wouldnt even have been there if it wasnt for her...i am feeling scared about evading cops and making them look bad.... masterbating is not helping,...i cant figure out y i do the things i do...i seem to be normal on the outside ,but i am soo stupid:(

[clocker]

yesterday i went out with somegal,and i tot since it was sunday there wouldnt be cops unfortunately i was asked to stop by a traffic police ,i didnt i gave full throttle and rodeaway at full speed,i think the police made a note of my number,it was all because of the gal...i wouldnt even have been there if it wasnt for her...i am feeling scared about evading cops and making them look bad.... masterbating is not helping,...i cant figure out y i do the things i do...i seem to be normal on the outside ,but i am soo stupid:(
I can't imagine why masturbation isn't helping.
Perhaps you're doing it wrong.

[Squeamous]

Statistics say no...

Children under the age of 5 in the United States are more likely to be killed by their parents than anyone else. Contrary to popular mythology, they are rarely killed by a sex-crazed stranger. FBI crime statistics show that in 1999 parents were responsible for 57 percent of these murders, with family friends and acquaintances accounting for another 30 percent and other family members accounting for 8 percent. Crime statistics further reveal that of the children under 5 killed from 1976 to 1999, 30 percent were murdered by their mothers while 31 percent were killed by their fathers.

Rest of article here. (http://www.slate.com/id/2063086/)
Admittedly this article does not delve into the "why" (i.e., were they "dumped" beforehand?), maybe you have other info pertaining to that.

You're right, it doesn't. So why you posted an unrelated point as a rebuttal is beyond me.

-D, must try harder.

[GoldStoNe]

I never thought that some men resort to masturbation as a way to ease their broken heartedness.. lust most of the time.

[clocker]

You're right, it doesn't. So why you posted an unrelated point as a rebuttal is beyond me.


When you said...

They're also more likely to take their kids to their graves with them when they get dumped. This is on account of them being more prone to ego-driven acts of irrationality. When it comes to emotional susceptibility to external influence I think they're the weaker sex.
...I started looking for information to back up the assertion.
The only stats I could find showed that men and women are equally predisposed to kill their children but did not differentiate further as to motive.
Obviously, you are privy to more detailed information...care to share?

[Squeamous]

When you said...

They're also more likely to take their kids to their graves with them when they get dumped. This is on account of them being more prone to ego-driven acts of irrationality. When it comes to emotional susceptibility to external influence I think they're the weaker sex.
...I started looking for information to back up the assertion.
The only stats I could find showed that men and women are equally predisposed to kill their children but did not differentiate further as to motive.
Obviously, you are privy to more detailed information...care to share?

*sigh*

I quite clearly said that men are more predisposed to killing their children over matters of the heart, NOT that they were more predisposed to killing them than women full stop, which in your haste to find figures to claim otherwise you neglected to notice even though you just quoted me twice.

Your figures, as US-centric as they are, actually show a very slightly greater number of men doing it than women in a narrow age range of the under 5s. Exactly what the significance of that age is is beyond me. Where did you get them from, pisspoorstats.com?

If you want to talk about who kills who in broad terms we can talk about how men commit vastly more murders than women throughout all walks of life and age ranges. Or rather, we could if I felt inclined to. Which I don't.

[clocker]

"Sigh", indeed.

This makes twice now that you have failed to provide any proof whatsoever to back up your broadly sweeping statements.

"Men are more likely to kill their children when they're dumped" due to "being more prone to ego-driven acts of irrationality".

Did you really think you could throw out something that controversial without being called on it?

Pisspoorstats.com> Hissyfit.com.

[Squeamous]

Only you didn't call me on it did you? You tried to but failed.

Do you seriously doubt my quote? When was the last time you heard of a woman killing herself after being dumped and taking her children with her? In the last 6 months I've seen two cases in the news here in the UK, both men, of this sort of crime, both of which sought to seek revenge on their partner by killing their children. Those are two off the top of my head and there have been many more in the media prior. Women don't have the same capacity for violent self pity that men do.

[clocker]

The Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect (NIS-3)

US Department of Health and Human Services, page 6-11, table 6-4

-In 1993 children were 59 times more likely to be fatally abused [read: murdered] by natural mothers than by natural fathers

-Women constitute 78% of the perpetrators of fatal child abuse

"Women don't have the same capacity for violent self pity that men do."

"Women commit the majority of child homicides in the United States; more than 80 percent of neonaticides; an equal or greater share of severe physical child abuse; an equal rate of spousal assault; about a quarter of child sexual molestations; and a large proportion of elder abuse... The rate at which infants are murdered by women in the U.S. is higher than the rate at which women are murdered by men." With carefully researched facts, fascinating case histories, and incisive argument, Patricia Pearson succeeds in demolishing the myth that women are not naturally violent. When She Was Bad considers two different issues: (1) how we see violent women--that we either excuse their behavior with a "syndrome defense" such as battered woman syndrome, or else see them as the passive partners of violent men; (2) how we see aggression itself--that we perceive it as physical and blatant, thus missing the ways in which women more commonly use verbal assaults and indirect strategies."
Patricia Pearson
from When She was Bad...:Violent Women and the Myth of Innocence


A significant proportion (16-29%) of filicides end in completed suicide by the mother (56). Many other mothers make non-fatal suicide attempts in association with their filicides. When mothers of young children commit suicide, about 5% also kill at least one of their children (57,58).

Filicide-suicides have much in common with filicides committed by severely mentally ill mothers (15). Most frequently, these mothers have altruistic motives (15,23). Similar to results of other studies (15,20,48), our recent American study found that maternal filicide-suicide perpetrators killed older children more often than infants (mean age of children killed was 6 years old). The mothers often had evidence of depression or psychosis (23). These mothers often take the lives of all their young children.
-source (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2174580)


Breaking News

The Post Chronicle
http://www.postchronicle.com
Published: Aug 1, 2007

Mother Kills Children In Murder-Suicide

An Ohio woman going through a divorce shot her son and daughter in the heart and then turned the gun on herself, a coroner said Wednesday.

Mary Ann Wittich of Cincinnati drugged Jacob, 10, and Sydney, 7, on Monday night, Dr. O’dell Owens, the Hamilton County coroner, told the Cincinnati Enquirer. On Tuesday morning, she shot her daughter first after drawing an “X” over her heart and then her son. (Source)



Texas Mom Kills Family, Self, Police Say

By JEFF CARLTON
The Associated Press
Wednesday, August 1, 2007; 12:11 AM

FLOWER MOUND, Texas — A stay-at-home mother in an affluent Dallas suburb fatally shot her husband and two children as they slept before killing herself, police said.

Detectives were reviewing a suicide note left in the house, where Andrea Roberts killed her husband, Michael Lewis Roberts, and children, Micayla, 11, and Dylan, 7, police said. Each had a single gunshot wound to the head…. (Full Story)

There are two examples- both from the same day even- of behaviour that you claim women don't exhibit.
For every high profile case you find of a father killing his children, I'll bet I can find a matching one involving the mother...after all, the numbers back me up.

[stitched]

Only you didn't call me on it did you? You tried to but failed.

Do you seriously doubt my quote? When was the last time you heard of a woman killing herself after being dumped and taking her children with her? In the last 6 months I've seen two cases in the news here in the UK, both men, of this sort of crime, both of which sought to seek revenge on their partner by killing their children. Those are two off the top of my head and there have been many more in the media prior. Women don't have the same capacity for violent self pity that men do.

women are complicated like chess....men are simple....women are indirectly responsible for the killing,men act on their instincts if such a killing did happen....it happens all the time in the animal world,males killing the young....

what media shows us is the manipulated truth,truth is we dont really want to know the actual truth. we r just happy reading stats ...but i think a sensible single male can bring up a child a lot better a resourcefull single mom....because women are have always been attracted to materialistic things a lot more then males...

women want to look good ALL THE TIME...men are ok with what they wear after a while...and "men have bigger brains then females" true fact (courtesy-"FAMILY GUY")...some times i think its true remember women cant compete men in chess there has never been a women world champion i am not sure about it but i havent read about any other then susan polgar too bad for her then there was KASPAROV.

[clocker]

I can only assume this is a parody of S.'s posting style.

Bravo.

[Squeamous]

"Women don't have the same capacity for violent self pity that men do."

"Women commit the majority of child homicides in the United States; more than 80 percent of neonaticides; an equal or greater share of severe physical child abuse; an equal rate of spousal assault; about a quarter of child sexual molestations; and a large proportion of elder abuse... The rate at which infants are murdered by women in the U.S. is higher than the rate at which women are murdered by men." With carefully researched facts, fascinating case histories, and incisive argument, Patricia Pearson succeeds in demolishing the myth that women are not naturally violent. When She Was Bad considers two different issues: (1) how we see violent women--that we either excuse their behavior with a "syndrome defense" such as battered woman syndrome, or else see them as the passive partners of violent men; (2) how we see aggression itself--that we perceive it as physical and blatant, thus missing the ways in which women more commonly use verbal assaults and indirect strategies."
Patricia Pearson
from When She was Bad...:Violent Women and the Myth of Innocence


A significant proportion (16-29%) of filicides end in completed suicide by the mother (56). Many other mothers make non-fatal suicide attempts in association with their filicides. When mothers of young children commit suicide, about 5% also kill at least one of their children (57,58).

Filicide-suicides have much in common with filicides committed by severely mentally ill mothers (15). Most frequently, these mothers have altruistic motives (15,23). Similar to results of other studies (15,20,48), our recent American study found that maternal filicide-suicide perpetrators killed older children more often than infants (mean age of children killed was 6 years old). The mothers often had evidence of depression or psychosis (23). These mothers often take the lives of all their young children.
-source (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2174580)


Breaking News

The Post Chronicle
http://www.postchronicle.com
Published: Aug 1, 2007

Mother Kills Children In Murder-Suicide

An Ohio woman going through a divorce shot her son and daughter in the heart and then turned the gun on herself, a coroner said Wednesday.

Mary Ann Wittich of Cincinnati drugged Jacob, 10, and Sydney, 7, on Monday night, Dr. O’dell Owens, the Hamilton County coroner, told the Cincinnati Enquirer. On Tuesday morning, she shot her daughter first after drawing an “X” over her heart and then her son. (Source)



Texas Mom Kills Family, Self, Police Say

By JEFF CARLTON
The Associated Press
Wednesday, August 1, 2007; 12:11 AM

FLOWER MOUND, Texas — A stay-at-home mother in an affluent Dallas suburb fatally shot her husband and two children as they slept before killing herself, police said.

Detectives were reviewing a suicide note left in the house, where Andrea Roberts killed her husband, Michael Lewis Roberts, and children, Micayla, 11, and Dylan, 7, police said. Each had a single gunshot wound to the head…. (Full Story)

There are two examples- both from the same day even- of behaviour that you claim women don't exhibit.
For every high profile case you find of a father killing his children, I'll bet I can find a matching one involving the mother...after all, the numbers back me up.

Have you actually read anything I've said? I said men do it more often than women 'as revenge for relationship breakdown'....that is the kind of mental weakness I'm talking about....driven by ego. You gave one example not two, and there will always be the odd case, there are no absolutes. None of your figures address my point that men do that more often than women.

I can't believe you posted all that guff and it was completely irrelevant to my point.

[colt45joe]

very funny thread.

[manicgeek]

"Women don't have the same capacity for violent self pity that men do."
The first source doesn't address the argument you've chosen to take up, it makes no reference to the reasons for the murders, so none of the content can be used to prove or disprove the point about men being more prone to murdering children when 'dumped'.

The second source whilst addressing violence in women, again doesn't address the point being argued.

The third source is far more interesting in that it addresses the specific subject, even if it is in places very vague about the reasoning for the womans actions, but it contains no comparative data for men, and so no conclusion can be drawn about whether men are more likely to commit such acts when 'dumped'.


There are two examples- both from the same day even- of behaviour that you claim women don't exhibit.
For every high profile case you find of a father killing his children, I'll bet I can find a matching one involving the mother...after all, the numbers back me up.

I think you'll find she never claimed that women didn't do it, she claimed that men were more likely too, and they are two different arguments.

What numbers ? You've yet to produce any numbers, and to be frank quoting a news report about a mother killing her entire family, including the husband, hardly supports any argument about whether men are more likely to kill children when 'dumped'.

[Squeamous]

You put that so much better than me :unsure:.

[clocker]

I think you'll find she never claimed that women didn't do it, she claimed that men were more likely too, and they are two different arguments.


A "claim" that Squeamous has yet to produce a single source of proof for outside of a incident on the news and her prodigious memory. Which is apparently sufficient for you.

Funny thing, despite statistical evidence showing that women and men kill children at the same rate (or that women kill children more often, depending on the criteria applied), not one study I could find delved into the motives behind the crimes ("I was dumped!")

So I guess this is one of those "Oh, everybody knows that" sort of claims, eh?

[manicgeek]

(..). Which is apparently sufficient for you.

Is it really ? Are you sure of that ? Or is this a "If you're not on my side, you must be on hers" argument :yup:

[clocker]

I thought we were having a discussion not an argument.

The reason I wrote it was "apparently sufficient" for you is due to the fact that you haven't asked Squeamous to meet the standards you applied to me.
Your participation thus far has been to declare my data as irrelevant while allowing S. the luxury of providing no supporting data at all.

You can see why I made the assumption, maybe?

[manicgeek]

I thought we were having a discussion not an argument.

The reason I wrote it was "apparently sufficient" for you is due to the fact that you haven't asked Squeamous to meet the standards you applied to me.
Your participation thus far has been to declare my data as irrelevant while allowing S. the luxury of providing no supporting data at all.

You can see why I made the assumption, maybe?
Good discussions are made with good arguments... that's not the shouting at each other kind of argument.

If and when she provides some sources I will read them a I read yours, and apply the same criteria to them as I did to yours. I rather suspect that she was opining and as such has no intention of providing any such sources, and she is as entitled to her opinion as you are to yours... at least until either is proven wrong.

[clocker]

I rather suspect that she was opining and as such has no intention of providing any such sources
We can certainly agree on that.

[stitched]

no one can claim an opinion like that without proof,thats sexist such opinions need to be proved especially when its such a delicate matter...what would innocent people who read such posts by "Squeamous" might think??,they might be misguided into beliving that what ever Squeamous claims might be actually happening...and its a disgrace for men...do u really think some one can just have an opinion which is offensive remark against men not to mention without any proofs and voice it in a male dominated forum like this.....welll it might bring down the moral and dignity of the future generation of men since most of them here are 15-16 year old,like MEN ARE MORE LIKELY TO DIE OF A BROKEN HEART IS NOT DEPRESSING ENOUGH:P dont mind me

[clocker]

no one can claim an opinion like that without proof
Of course they can, it's in the Magna Carta or something.

Hell, a significant percentage of Americans think that Obama is a Muslim, all evidence to the contrary.

[Biggles]

no one can claim an opinion like that without proof
Of course they can, it's in the Magna Carta or something.

Hell, a significant percentage of Americans think that Obama is a Muslim, all evidence to the contrary.

On the plus side at least they won't be worry about what his Church pastor said :shifty:

:ermm: they are going to hold two opposing and mutually incompatible views aren't they?

[manicgeek]

Of course they can, it's in the Magna Carta or something.

Hell, a significant percentage of Americans think that Obama is a Muslim, all evidence to the contrary.
Well you know how rednecks are... they all look the same to a redneck :lol:

[clocker]

:ermm: they are going to hold two opposing and mutually incompatible views aren't they?
Yup.
Untethered by reality, opinions are soooo much easier to hold onto.

[Squeamous]

A "claim" that Squeamous has yet to produce a single source of proof for outside of a incident on the news and her prodigious memory. Which is apparently sufficient for you.

Funny thing, despite statistical evidence showing that women and men kill children at the same rate (or that women kill children more often, depending on the criteria applied), not one study I could find delved into the motives behind the crimes ("I was dumped!")

So I guess this is one of those "Oh, everybody knows that" sort of claims, eh?

I don't intend to produce any evidence, and I never said I would. I've made it clear my opinion is anecdotal, and I'm not aware of any research that has been done on this to be able to quote. My opinion is based on my observations only...ones I should think are blindingly obvious to most people. You have tried to refute it with facts and figures and failed because you insist on quoting irrelevant stats. I'm not about to get into a Wiki argument with you because that will make us both look stupid, instead of just you.

[clocker]

So I guess this is one of those "Oh, everybody knows that" sort of claims, eh?

I don't intend to produce any evidence, and I never said I would. I've made it clear my opinion is anecdotal, and I'm not aware of any research that has been done on this to be able to quote. My opinion is based on my observations only...ones I should think are blindingly obvious to most people. You have tried to refute it with facts and figures and failed because you insist on quoting irrelevant stats. I'm not about to get into a Wiki argument with you because that will make us both look stupid, instead of just you.

Actually, this is the first time you've admitted that the disputed statements were opinions instead of facts.
As far as "blindingly obvious" goes...it was 'blindingly obvious" that Saddam had WMD and close ties to al-Qaeda- right up till the time that facts (pesky buggers!) proved that he didn't. It was "blindingly obvious" that the Earth was flat and the stars revolved around it- right up ti....oh, I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

After all, it's obvious, eh?