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Mr. Blunt
08-11-2003, 10:33 PM
SHERMAN AUSTIN SENTENCED TO ONE YEAR IN FEDERAL PRISON

Sherman Austin, webmaster of RaisetheFist.com, was sentenced today, August 4, 2003, to one year in federal prison, with three years of probation. Judge Wilson shocked the courtroom when he went against the recommendation of not only the prosecution, but the FBI and the Justice Department, who had asked that Austin be sentenced to 4 months in prison, and 4 months in a half-way house, with 3 years of probation.

Austin's probation stipulates, among other things, that (1) he cannot possess or access a computer of any kind without prior approval of his probation officer, (2) if his probation officer gives permission, the equipment is subject to monitoring and is subject to search and seizure at any time, without notice, (3) he cannot alter any of the software or hardware on any computer he uses, (4) he must surrender his phone, DSL, electric, and satellite bills, (5) he cannot associate with any person or group that seeks to change the government in any way (be that environmental, social justice, political, economic, etc.), and (6) he must pay over $2,000 in fines and restitution. Austin must surrender himself to the Federal Bureau of Prisons by September 3, 2003.

To contact sherman, email [email protected]

FROM SHERMAN AUSTIN:

On Jan 24, 2002 , my home was surrounded and raided by approximately 25 heavily armed FBI and Secret Service agents in one of the governments first attempts to exercise the new US Patriot Act. I was interrogated for several hours while they ransacked my room and they seized a network of computers which I used to run my web site raisethefist.com. They also seized protest signs, and political literature. Their excuse was a protest guide (which I didn't author) that was posted to my site which a small portion contained information on explosives. The FBI had been monitoring the site long before this was ever posted, and long before Sept 11. The "explosives information" on my site (again which I didn't author) doesn't compare to what you an find on any other web sites such as howthingswork.com, Loompanics.com, Bombshock.com, Totse.com, Amazon.com, or the many neo nazi web sites which cover everything from assassinations, explosives, fraud and firearms. It's obvious a web surfer interested in making a bomb or taking part in other extra-illegal activities would not have to rely on Raisethefist.com. So how could the "bomb making information" on raisethefist.com be a concern to authorities? It wasn't a concern, it was simply used an excuse to exercise the new Patriot Act and take down the site. And that's what they did when federal agents spent 5-6 hours interrogating me while they disassembled each computer one by one , mirrored each hard drive, then loaded everything into a big white truck. During this whole process I was told I wasn't going to be arrested, and that I could even leave if I wanted to. Once the agents finished packing everything up, Special Agent John I. Pi, who was conducting the investigation and raid said that I had crossed a line, and as long as I got back on the other side of that line I'd be okay.

A week later despite what happened I still continued with my plans to attend the demonstration against the World Economic Forum in NY. As I was waiting for the march to begin, a swarm of NYPD officers rushed straight at me and scooped up about 26 people, one of which was me. We sat on a bus for 7 hours before being taken to Brooklyn Navy Yard Jail. I was there for about 30 hours before I was taken out of my cell and put into a backroom in handcuffs and interrogated once again by the FBI and Secret Service for several hours. They asked me questions such as if I was a terrorist or involved in any terrorist organizations. During the interrogation I noticed more and more agents walking through the room. I was told I wouldn't leave custody unless they searched my car. I said I had nothing to hide and simply wanted to go home. Stressed and aggravated, I signed over my keys. A few minutes later I was driven to the court and released. As I was waiting for someone to pick me up, about 5 FBI agents entered the court and said I was arrested for "distribution of information related to explosives over the internet". One of the agents grabbed my neck and told me to shut the fuck up while I tried to tell one of the legal observers I was being arrested. I was hurried out of the court house into a black SUV where I was driven to a federal building. I was then taken to lower Manhattan MCC maximum security 24 hour lockdown federal jail facility. At my bail hearing the FBI called me a "man on a mission" and said I drove 3,000 miles to carry out my alleged "plot". The judge said I was a "threat to the community" and denied me bail, and I was to be extradited back to California to face my charges. After 11 days I was shackled and taken to an airforce base where federal inmates are boarded onto planes surrounded by guards with M16's and shot guns, like prisoners of war, and flown to a federal jail "hub" in Oklahoma. Once I got there, I learned the next day that the prosecutors decided not to file an indictment. I was released after spending 13 days in custody. When I got back to Los Angeles I put raisethefist.com back up almost immediately. I continued my political organizing within the community, as well as my work with Raise the Fist which developed into a Direct Action Network with chapters setup around the world. 6 months later prosecutors contacted my lawyer and said they found nothing to prosecute me for on my computers, but didn't want to "let me off the hook". They offered me a pre-indictment binding plea agreement which was initially 1 month in jail, and 5 months in a "community corrections facility". I rejected the plea at first, wanting to go to trial until we discovered the case was eligible for a terrorism enhancement, which could have added 20 years to my sentence.

I therefore decided to enter a plea. I played months of legal limbo until I finally expected to get sentenced to 4 months in jail and 4 months in a community corrections facility based on the final pre-sentencing report written by the USPO. The judge rejected the 4 months saying what kind of an example would it set for "future revolutionaries" wanting to act in the same manner. He stated he wanted to give me at least 8-10 months but first wanted the opinion of the Justice Department and the Director of the FBI in Washington, DC (Robert Muller). My sentencing was rescheduled several times until August 4th. I was convicted for felony; distribution of information related to explosives with intent, and sentenced to 1 year in federal prison with 3 years supervised release.

Distribution of information related to explosives is not illegal.. What's illegal is the INTENT part. They have to prove you have intent to use the information to cause further crime of violence .. and how do they prove intent? I think Bush made it clear when he said "you're either with me or against me".

Remember, fascism and a police state doesn't come all at once, it comes piece by piece. How far will we allow it go until we are all locked up in concentration camps.

If we don't take matters into our own hands and do something about this now, then we are already prisoners of war.

Raisethefist.com is not shutting down, and the RTF Direct Action Network will continue to grow and remain active. A 1 year sentence is not the end of this. It's just the begining.



NEW from the Indymedia newswire: Sherman DID NOT author the Reclaim Guide. (http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/76607.php)

Listen to the KillRadio.Org (http://www.killradio.org/) Interview (http://www.killradio.org/proginfo.php?id=70) with Sherman from August 6, 2003.
Listen to two Radio4All (http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/76638.php) interviews with Sherman Austin, 7/10/03 and 8/8/03.

See Photos: Portraits of a Gentle Fighter (http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/76286.php).
See Cartoon: Railroaded (http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/76297.php).

Read about Sherman's case: In his own words (http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/75675.php).
From the Indymedia newswire: Lady Liberty Shot in the Foot...Again (http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/76135.php).
From the Indymedia newswire: A Message About Sherman (http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/76181.php).
Press Release From: Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org/br/20030807_eff_pr.php).
Press Release From: Online Policy Group (http://onlinepolicy.org/media/030805jailforbomblinks.shtml).

Background Information: What the FBI Doesn't Want You to See at RaisetheFist.com (http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/raisethefist/).
Background Information: Cryptome.org (http://cryptome.org/usa-v-sma-dkt2.htm).

EMERGENCY BENEFIT TO HELP SHERMAN (http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/75683.php)

--------------------

It's sad that it has to be this way. There's a big difference between an opposition and a terrorist. In my opinion, although any terrorist act should be punished, the 9-11 attack is used to justify more (governmental) actions than neccesary or even logical. How I feel towards the actions Bush is currently undertaking: it looks just too much as if he's going for global domination, one after the other country must obey his every wish without room for negotiation (as a result of 9-11) My biggest concern is for those people, who live in those countries, those who have to pay the real price. And then, I hardly see any American intervention in Africa where half of the continent country suffers from rebellions and other kinds of war. But then again, they don't have any interesting natural resources do they?

Putting Sherman in jail is not going to stop anyone from posting bomb infomation, because one can purchase plenty of practical information at Amazon.com, such as Home Workshop Explosives (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0970148526/ref=pd_ecc_rvi_f/104-8112509-6463924), or the Improvised Munitions Black Book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879472049/ref=ase_downside/102-8329875-6261700).
And one can't forget William Powell's 30+ year old Anarchist Cookbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0962303208/qid=1012505025/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_18_1/104-8112509-6463924); be sure to read the this Salon article (http://www.salon.com/tech/log/2000/09/18/anarchy/index.html) and the author's own comments posted on the Amazon page.

For weapons of mass destruction (chemical and biological), Amazon offers Silent Death, Second Edition (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0970148534/pd_pym_cp_4/102-8329875-6261700), the reference supposedly used by the Aum cult.

Public libraries are also much better sources of explosives information than the pathetic Reclaim Guide.

Even CNN is happy to share a pipe bomb recipe (http://www.cnn.com/US/9607/27/pipe.bomb.explain/index.html) with curious readers, apparently without legal repercussions. But this does not mean that the statute mentioned above has no use. It can be used to pile additional charges on someone whom the government wants to prosecute for other reasons. Whether that is a legitimate purpose for a statute is, I think, worthy of public debate.

Arm
08-12-2003, 01:15 AM
Well my dad did say Nazis will take over America before the socialists do. Land of the free my ass! :angry:

j2k4
08-12-2003, 02:13 PM
The original post is quite long, and seemingly comprehensive; a sure indication some important relevancies were omitted.

I await more information that I don't have to chase down on my own.

Rat Faced
08-14-2003, 02:49 PM
Since when does the Defence have to dig up the Prosecuters evidence?

J'Pol
08-14-2003, 06:07 PM
I'm finding it difficult to see the point of this.

The chap pled guilty to an offence and has been sentenced for it.

Is that it, or am I missing something important here.

Rat Faced
08-14-2003, 06:16 PM
Someone posted something on his Message Board.....not him.

The content that was posted was minor, and worse is much widely available (hell..I have the Anarchists Cookbook)

He was only prosecuted because of who he is.....ie Politics.


You really must keep up JPaul....

J'Pol
08-14-2003, 08:13 PM
But he pled guilty to the offence, which means he is guilty.

He was then sentenced, within the limits for the offence.

So what's the problem.

FuNkY CaPrIcOrN
08-14-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by JPaul@14 August 2003 - 15:13
But he pled guilty to the offence, which means he is guilty.

He was then sentenced, within the limits for the offence.

So what's the problem.
I have to agree.....do the time.Publish a Book and sell the rights to a TV Movie when released.....make Millions and live good for the rest of your life.


God Bless America.....I love this Country!!!

Rat Faced
08-15-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by JPaul@14 August 2003 - 20:13
But he pled guilty to the offence, which means he is guilty.

He was then sentenced, within the limits for the offence.

So what's the problem.
That would be the case here...

However over there they have this thing called "Plea Bargaining"....if you plead guilty to something else (even if innocent) you dont get charged with a greater offence.

In this case they were threatening to charge him with something that would put him away for 20 years because someone else posted something on his board.

The plea bargain he agreed to would have put him in jail for a month (already served) and probation for a few months (unsupervised).....so he agreed and pleaded Guilty (despite not having done anything).

The judge decided that he didnt like the terms of the Plea Bargain and wanted to make an example of the new laws....hence disregarded the agreement and Jailed him, followed by draconian Parole rules.


He is in effect, a political prisoner in the "Land of the Free".


And theis is civil not military.

j2k4
08-15-2003, 01:08 PM
I am mulling a proposal to change the name of this section again.......

J'Pol
08-15-2003, 04:23 PM
I think Draconian over-states the case, however your point is well made.

I also don't think he is really a political prisoner. Nelson Mandela was a political prisoner. We can agree to differ on that one.

I think there may be a wee bit of "one of ours" sentiment here. I mean by the starter rather than yourself RF - however might there just be a wee hint of it with you too ?

Rat Faced
08-15-2003, 07:45 PM
(5) he cannot associate with any person or group that seeks to change the government in any way (be that environmental, social justice, political, economic, etc.),

Thats not political?

Shame on you.


I think there may be a wee bit of "one of ours" sentiment here. I mean by the starter rather than yourself RF - however might there just be a wee hint of it with you too ?


Ive never heard of the guy.

If only one side is putting an argument, thats all i can base my opinions on.

I did ask for the evidence for the prosecution, earlier in the thread ;)

J'Pol
08-15-2003, 09:09 PM
Austin, 20, pleaded guilty in February to distributing information related to explosives.

Austin told the judge Monday he "wasn't really thinking" when he created the Web site. "I'd be devastated if someone used this information to harm others," he said.

Austin admitted posting links about bombs to enable people to build and use them during demonstrations against interstate and foreign trade. He told FBI agents he wanted the Web site to teach people about police brutality.

FROM VIGILANT.TV

J'Pol
08-15-2003, 09:33 PM
Having read the material, the bottom line is that

This chap was a 20 year old "Anarchist".

He ran a website.

From which he suggested anarchy was a good thing.

He linked to bomb making sites (and has admitted this to the judge). These were links to instructions on how to make devices designed to kill people.

He said we was really sorry and hoped that people who made them wouldn't hurt anybody.

He was arrested for this and when his lawyers told him he could go to jail for a long time this big tough Anarchist decided to render a plea. So he wouldn't go to jail.

He then threw himself on the mercy of the court, rather than using it as a forum to put forward his political views.

The judge said - fuck that - go to jail for a wee while and when you come out grow up. We will not let you post this shite designed to rabble rouse and teach others to kill people.

He is now posting a lot of drivel trying to make himself out as a hero.

Typical 20 year old anarchist, until his mum says "your tea is ready" then he washes his hands.

What an ARSE

Rat Faced
08-15-2003, 11:54 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

An elequent prosecution and summing up ;)


But the original chap put so much effort into his post, i feel that i should just sit on the fence and not actually change sides yet :P


The guy never did anything not done worse elsewhere, and even the FBI didnt really want to prosecute. I think they did it more coz he pissed them off one too many times, than because he was dangerous.

J'Pol
08-16-2003, 01:24 AM
The - I am an arse, but other people are worse arses defence.

Sorry - doesn't work for me.

He did what he was accused of and has admitted it. He posted terrorist material.

Do the time Anarchy Boy. Try not to weasel out the next time. You may be taken more seriously.

Rat Faced
08-16-2003, 03:16 PM
Maybe i should get rid of that copy of the Anarchists Cookbook....






......nah.

J'Pol
08-16-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Rat Faced@16 August 2003 - 16:16
Maybe i should get rid of that copy of the Anarchists Cookbook....






......nah.
lol

I can send you my copy of the arsists cookbook.

evilbagpuss
08-17-2003, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by Jpaul
He posted terrorist material.

Do you think the people at amazon should be arrested under terrorist legislation as well? As was pointed out they sell similar material that has already been used by a terrorist cult in Japan.

From what I've read (not just this article) the Gvt was just looking for any excuse to put him away. Most likely due to the masses of info on police brutality as opposed to some stupid outdated Cookbook material that would be of little or no use to any self respecting terrorist.

One things for certain.. this use of terrorist legislation hasnt made 1 iota of difference to the terrorists but it has removed a particularly troublesome political thorn.

Everose
08-17-2003, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by evilbagpuss+16 August 2003 - 22:28--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (evilbagpuss @ 16 August 2003 - 22:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Jpaul
He posted terrorist material.

Do you think the people at amazon should be arrested under terrorist legislation as well? As was pointed out they sell similar material that has already been used by a terrorist cult in Japan.

From what I&#39;ve read (not just this article) the Gvt was just looking for any excuse to put him away. Most likely due to the masses of info on police brutality as opposed to some stupid outdated Cookbook material that would be of little or no use to any self respecting terrorist.

One things for certain.. this use of terrorist legislation hasnt made 1 iota of difference to the terrorists but it has removed a particularly troublesome political thorn. [/b][/quote]
Very good points. Especially the last one.

imnotanaddict
08-17-2003, 03:51 AM
Distribution of information related to explosives is not illegal.. What&#39;s illegal is the INTENT part. They have to prove you have intent to use the information to cause further crime of violence .. and how do they prove intent? I think Bush made it clear when he said "you&#39;re either with me or against me".

Austin admitted posting links about bombs to enable people to build and use them during demonstrations against interstate and foreign trade. He told FBI agents he wanted the Web site to teach people about police brutality.

He just shot himself in the foot when he made that statement. " to enable people
to build and use". What could he have been thinking to make an admission of guilt like that?

J'Pol
08-17-2003, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by evilbagpuss+17 August 2003 - 03:28--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (evilbagpuss @ 17 August 2003 - 03:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Jpaul
He posted terrorist material.

Do you think the people at amazon should be arrested under terrorist legislation as well? As was pointed out they sell similar material that has already been used by a terrorist cult in Japan.

From what I&#39;ve read (not just this article) the Gvt was just looking for any excuse to put him away. Most likely due to the masses of info on police brutality as opposed to some stupid outdated Cookbook material that would be of little or no use to any self respecting terrorist.

One things for certain.. this use of terrorist legislation hasnt made 1 iota of difference to the terrorists but it has removed a particularly troublesome political thorn. [/b][/quote]
As ever you take one line - in this case 4 words and then comment on that. Context is an important thing - though I realise you chose to ignore it as technique, as opposed to ignorance on your part.

The actual point was that he posted terrorist material and subsequently pled guilty to the offence which he was accused of.

He did this in order to try to get a lesser sentence, in the best traditions of anarchists (I think not).

So the judge sent him to prison - good.

evilbagpuss
08-17-2003, 09:35 AM
@JPaul

Amazon has sold &#39;terrorist&#39; material. They sell it openly on their site which is as good as a confession yes?

So again I must ask you. Do you think amazon should be prosecuted under the same legislation?

Its a point of principle and the context you speak of is irrelevant as selling it openly is more than a confession its being &#39;caught&#39; red handed, and as has already been stated, their material has already been used by terrorists.

The principle is exactly the same. The fact I didnt include every word of your post did nothing to cloud the issue or muddy the waters. No technique I&#39;m afraid.

Avoiding the issue is a technique in itself, is it not?

He pled guilty because he had no choice. Anyone can see that.

This is blatant misuse of terrorist legislation, i.e using it to remove a political problem.

Not good.

J'Pol
08-17-2003, 09:45 AM
Specious

A self - proclaimed anarchist pled guilty to a terrorist offence. Of course he had a choice, it was entirely a matter for him. He did it to get a lesser sentence, go anarchy boy - there&#39;s the courage of your convictions.

He was sentenced within the rules and is now putting himself forward as a victim.

I would have more sympathy if he had fought his case and argued his corner. He could then have put forward points like your&#39;s.

However he chose not too.

So tough - do your time and grow up, oh and if you chose not to live within society&#39;s rules then you can go back. Oh that&#39;s right your an anarchist so you don&#39;t obey the rules - LOL.

With regard to the ludicrous Amazon analogy. I would think it unlikely that a body corporate can actually be prosecuted for such an offence.

evilbagpuss
08-17-2003, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by jpaul

Specious

A self - proclaimed anarchist pled guilty to a terrorist offence. Of course he had a choice, it was entirely a matter for him. He did it to get a lesser sentence, go anarchy boy - there&#39;s the courage of your convictions.

He was sentenced within the rules and is now putting himself forward as a victim.

I would have more sympathy if he had fought his case and argued his corner. He could then have put forward points like your&#39;s.

However he chose not too.

So tough - do your time and grow up, oh and if you chose not to live within society&#39;s rules then you can go back. Oh that&#39;s right your an anarchist so you don&#39;t obey the rules - LOL.

With regard to the ludicrous Amazon analogy. I would think it unlikely that a body corporate can actually be prosecuted for such an offence.



This is the thing though. He wasnt on trial for his beliefs and its easy to say he should have fought his corner when your not the one looking at 20 years in a federal prison. 20 years&#33;&#33;&#33;?? And for what? Posting outdated crap from the 80&#39;s that is widely available on many websites all over the world?

Also can you please explain why the comparison with amazon is ludicrous? Perhaps Im missing something but it seems perfectly rational to me. The only difference is that amazons info is likely to be far more professional and they actually make money from it and furthermore this info has already been used to deadly effect in Japan. If they can charge corporations with manslaughter Im sure they could manage to do it for this. The idea of a company being above the law just because its a company is non-sensical.

Amazon is not the only one as stated... if this case is &#39;legit&#39; and not based on politics we should be expecting similar action against Loompanics.com, Bombshock.com, Totse.com et al. I wont be holding my breath thats for sure.

Lets not forget the context of this case. The FBI have been trying to &#39;get him&#39; long before any of this happened. They&#39;ve been hounding him for months and now they&#39;ve brought to bear the heavy handed weight of this terrorist legislation which was designed for the likes of Al-Queda.This stinks and imho is an ominous warning for the future usage of this &#39;legislation&#39;.

btw I cant help but suspect your being influenced by his political beliefs.

As for "you chose not to live within society&#39;s rules then you can go back".. go back where JPaul? His mothers womb? afaik the guy is not an immigrant.

J'Pol
08-17-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by evilbagpuss@17 August 2003 - 11:06

As for "you chose not to live within society&#39;s rules then you can go back".. go back where JPaul? His mothers womb? afaik the guy is not an immigrant.
To Prison.

Quite clear given the context of the post.

Unless you were making assumptions about the authors beliefs. Given your reply it would appear you were.

Tell you what - you stay on the moral high ground and I&#39;ll stay on the legal one and we can agree to disagree on this.

Think he&#39;ll get parole for good behaviour, I do.

evilbagpuss
08-17-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Jpaul+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jpaul)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>To Prison.[/b]

Hes never been there. He cant "go back" to a place he&#39;s never been. So no, not clear at all.

The rest of your post is irrelevant and evasive.

Although to be fair you did capture the issue rather well with this I thought..

<!--QuoteBegin-Jpaul
you stay on the moral high ground and I&#39;ll stay on the legal one [/quote]

The problem here is that the 2 are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I&#39;d like to see you thoughts on some of the queries I raised in my previous post. The amazon issue, misuse of legislation etc. afaik you havent even touched on these issues let alone disagreed on them.

J'Pol
08-17-2003, 11:02 AM
"So tough - do your time and grow up, oh and if you chose not to live within society&#39;s rules then you can go back."

It is quite clear when one reads the whole sentence, once again you chose to censor. Then to reply to just that part.

I will not reply to the ludicrous. I have already said that I do not think your Amazon analogy is sound, so why would I reply to it. The arguement is specious.

With regard to our relative positions. The Judge rules and sentences on matters of Law, not on morality.

How many times must you hear this before you can accept it :

HE PLED GUILTY TO THE OFFENCE AND WAS SENTENCED ACCORDING TO THE LAW.

Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.

Sorry for shouting, but it would appear that I cannot be heard when you are so high up. Either that or you are so lost in your convoluted logic that you are begining to appear obtuse.

evilbagpuss
08-17-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Jpaul+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jpaul)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I will not reply to the ludicrous. I have already said that I do not think your Amazon analogy is sound, so why would I reply to it. The arguement is specious[/b]

Face it. Its not ludicrous at all. They are all websites hosting the same information. Some for free, some for profit. Some individuals, some companies. They&#39;re the only differences and they&#39;re hardly fundamental as far as distributing this information is concerned.

You know it as well as I do. I would love to hear your theory as to why its ludicrous. But it doesnt exist does it?

<!--QuoteBegin-JPaul
With regard to our relative positions. The Judge rules and sentences on matters of Law, not on morality.

How many times must you hear this before you can accept it :

HE PLED GUILTY TO THE OFFENCE AND WAS SENTENCED ACCORDING TO THE LAW[/quote]

I see. So in 1940&#39;s Germany you would say the same thing to a Jew? How about Stalins Russia? Extreme examples I know but the point is the same.

Morality comes way above the legal system. Otherwise you could justify everything and anything if it were enshrined in law. Rape? Legal? Lets do it&#33; Murder? legal? Lets go for it&#33;

The last I heard that defense of legality didnt go down too well at Nuremberg.

He pled guilty to the offence because he had no choice. Either that or risk 20 years in jail. I doubt you would do any different.

Smoke and mirrors? Convoluted logic? Add unjustified indignant emotion and evasive tactics into the mix and I think you&#39;ve just about covered your strategy quite well.

2 issues here.

1) The law being right/wrong, used/abused.
2) The double standards in relation to Amazon et al.

Lets stick to the facts and not get too emotional eh? It only detracts from the core issues which isnt in anyones interests... or is it?

J'Pol
08-17-2003, 01:20 PM
More smoke and mirrors. Some quite offensive actually.

No matter what you say he pled guilty to the offence for which he was accused and was sentenced accordingly.

evilbagpuss
08-17-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by JPaul+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>More smoke and mirrors. Some quite offensive actually[/b]

Smoke and mirrors? More like going round in circles. Your offended? Your not the only one. You&#39;ve wasted my time with this rubbish whilst I&#39;ve just had 2 simple points I wanted you to deal with.

I expect better than this from you JPaul. Even indulging me by explaining why the amazon comparison is "ludicrous" would have been something. Better than this farce of recriminations, pseudo-outrage and downright evasion.

But hey no surrender and all that eh?

<!--QuoteBegin-JPaul
No matter what you say he pled guilty to the offence for which he was accused and was sentenced accordingly.[/quote]

Yeah and that makes it a totally fair trial. Sure...

I&#39;ve found you to be extremely duplicitous in this thread JPaul and I am now firmly convinced that your attitude is totally down to this guy being an Anarchist, whatever that means to you.

You are totally unwilling to answer any point, you simply repeat your statements without explanation and evade valid questions, all the while trying to make out that I am the one being insincere and offensive.

Nice one ;)

J'Pol
08-17-2003, 01:53 PM
So you think the authorities may have had another agenda ?

No shit Sherlock.

J'Pol
08-17-2003, 01:54 PM
:P :lol: :P

evilbagpuss
08-17-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by JPaul+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>More smoke and mirrors. Some quite offensive actually[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-JPaul
So you think the authorities may have had another agenda ?

No shit Sherlock.[/quote]

Whoops&#33; Accidental loss of pseudo-dignity&#33; I think its down there. Yeah right at the bottom of the barrel. Keep scraping.... Oh shit its dissolved.

What a tragic loss. :rolleyes:

J'Pol
08-17-2003, 02:20 PM
That&#39;s better.

evilbagpuss
08-18-2003, 06:11 AM
Yup it is a lot better as far as I&#39;m concerned.


Originally posted by JPaul
So you think the authorities may have had another agenda ?

No shit Sherlock.

So.. you fully support the misuse of terrorist legislation so the Gvt can get rid of political problems.

This,in my book, makes you either a fascist or a fool. Neither of which are worth debating such important stuff with.

Before you get started, drop the outraged and indignant act JPaul, I dont think your going to get any more wear out of it after this little stunt.

Rat Faced
08-18-2003, 03:34 PM
We still havent heard any "Facts" from the case, except the original post.

So, although i know its wrong to do so, i cant help leaning towards feeling sorry for the guy.


I wholley disagree with his politics....but his parole conditions are such that he cant even join the World Wildlife Fund without being thrown back in prison.


No matter what you believe re: whether he should have been prosecuted/sent to jail..........THAT is draconian, political and plain wrong.

J'Pol
08-18-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by evilbagpuss+18 August 2003 - 07:11--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (evilbagpuss @ 18 August 2003 - 07:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Yup it is a lot better as far as I&#39;m concerned.

<!--QuoteBegin-JPaul
So you think the authorities may have had another agenda ?

No shit Sherlock.

So.. you fully support the misuse of terrorist legislation so the Gvt can get rid of political problems.

This,in my book, makes you either a fascist or a fool. Neither of which are worth debating such important stuff with.

Before you get started, drop the outraged and indignant act JPaul, I dont think your going to get any more wear out of it after this little stunt. [/b][/quote]
You are of course correct.

I am not worthy of debating with someone who is so obviously incapable of identifying the blatantly ironic. Perhaps next time I should remove your eye with it, make it easier to recognise.

I leave this thread to you and yours.

Live long in Possil.

evilbagpuss
08-20-2003, 01:58 AM
Ahh irony I see....

I now understand that all of your posts in this thread have been clearly aimed at producing a healthy and rational debate.

Obviously

I can only assume your intentions were as pure as the driven snow and that your point blank refusal to do anything but evade valid points and post provocative replies designed to bring this discussion down to the level of the playground was irony as well.

Silly me :rolleyes:

lynx
08-20-2003, 08:48 AM
I&#39;m not too well up on this aspect of american law, but it is my understanding that these &#39;plea bargain&#39; agreements have to be agreed by all parties, including the judge. For the judge to later renege on the agreement is surely comtempt of court, and is certainly grounds for appeal.

bigboab
08-20-2003, 10:15 PM
What would happen if I tried to display this type of information on this forum?

lynx
08-20-2003, 10:34 PM
That would probably be ok, as long as you didn&#39;t use the word hackers.

Damn, sorry guys, I think I just got this thread locked.