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fallenknight308
09-16-2003, 03:48 AM
Regardless of the existence of a "deity" or "god",
ONE fact CANNOT be brushed aside:
This planet, and everything on it was engineered by a Higher intelligence.
*I'm off to see the wizard, the wonderfull wizard of oz........................ :ph34r:
hobbes
09-16-2003, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by fallenknight308@16 September 2003 - 04:48
Regardless of the existence of a "deity" or "god",
ONE fact CANNOT be brushed aside:
This planet, and everything on it was engineered by a Higher intelligence.
*I'm off to see the wizard, the wonderfull wizard of oz........................ :ph34r:
The only thing I cannot brush aside is that "we are here". That is some shit.
clocker
09-16-2003, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by fallenknight308@15 September 2003 - 20:48
Regardless of the existence of a "deity" or "god",
ONE fact CANNOT be brushed aside:
This planet, and everything on it was engineered by a Higher intelligence.
What?
You don't believe in serendipity?
BTW, I cannot see the unbrushasideable (huh?) fact in your post...
Originally posted by Biggles@13 September 2003 - 19:56
Clocker
Thanks
I am not really sure I understand.
Why would a stone designed to give prominence to one specific religion be placed in a courtroom that would presumably deal with cases covering all religions? Surely this would breach the separation of state and religion? Would it be permissible for say a judge who is a Mormon to put up a stone with Mormom texts; and so on through the many religions of the US? I think the judge in question may have put the lid back on the can before the worms got out.
Curious one though.
Here is addenda to the debate on the Alabama/Roy Moore issue.
1-The First Amendment states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
Alabama does not have a congress; the historical fact is that the Bill of Rights was a set of restrictions on the federal government.
If the states wished to have a state religion, they are free to do so.
It was not Judge Moore's intent to do so.
2-No rational person could conclude this representation of the Ten Commandments constitutes the establishment of a religion, no matter that they are displayed in the same quarters as the Alabama Supreme Court.
3-One of the "secular" onlooker/protesters was heard to say, "Well, what if someone wanted to put a monument to the Torah in the courthouse?"
The poor boob wasn't aware the Ten Commandments are from the Torah.
They have nothing to do with Christianity per se; they are merely basic rules of good behavior which prohibit murder, perjury, adultery, and theft, and are the moral basis of our laws, and the laws of most other countries as well.
It seems the whole debate is just a wee bit canted, at least as it pertains to the role of government in such affairs.
The government cannot bestow rights; anything the government gives, it can likewise take away.
A right is defined as something which cannot justly be taken away.
The Founding Fathers recognized that rights are God-given, and so structured the government to protect those rights-as granted by God.
It is not correct to refer to "constitutional rights", as the Constitution does not give anyone any rights; it exists solely to forfend government from the abridgement of the rights granted by "You-Know-Who" ;)
fallenknight308
09-16-2003, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by clocker+15 September 2003 - 20:26--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 15 September 2003 - 20:26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-fallenknight308@15 September 2003 - 20:48
Regardless of the existence of a "deity" or "god",
ONE fact CANNOT be brushed aside:
This planet, and everything on it was engineered by a Higher intelligence.
What?
You don't believe in serendipity?
BTW, I cannot see the unbrushasideable (huh?) fact in your post... [/b][/quote]
Touch'e
Wow, every one here still has a thing about increasing their post count <_<
(And don't bother pointing out the "irony" of my rebuttal, or the fact I have
trouble spelling, I am aware of the hypocrisy of this board ;) )
MagicNakor
09-16-2003, 07:32 AM
Or perhaps the fact that posts here don't count, as it is, alas, a sub-section of the Lounge?
:ninja:
Billy_Dean
09-16-2003, 08:06 AM
Regardless of the existence of a "deity" or "god",
ONE fact CANNOT be brushed aside:
This planet, and everything on it was engineered by a Higher intelligence.
Whether this post was a joke or not, I'm not sure, but, in my opinion, anyone who believes in gods or higher intelligences, must have a screw loose.
Religion is for people who can't comprehend reallity.
:)
J'Pol
09-16-2003, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by hobbes@14 September 2003 - 04:19
I also wonder why we put our hand on the Bible when taking oath in a courtroom. If I do not abide by the Bible, am I obliged to tell the truth?
Where I come from one can take an oath, on the holy book of your own choice, be it bible, koran or whatever.
Conversely, someone who has no religious religious beliefs can chose to affirm.
A friend of mine was seen to affirm on one occasion. Not because he was not religious. He just didn't like the particular version of the bible that was available. He decided to point this out may be offensive to others.
hobbes
09-16-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@16 September 2003 - 09:06
Regardless of the existence of a "deity" or "god",
ONE fact CANNOT be brushed aside:
This planet, and everything on it was engineered by a Higher intelligence.
Whether this post was a joke or not, I'm not sure, but, in my opinion, anyone who believes in gods or higher intelligences, must have a screw loose.
Religion is for people who can't comprehend reallity.
:)
No religion is for people who need to believe that there is something better than the reality before us. Life for most people sucks. Even those who appear to have it all, are often miserable.
The problem with religion is that you have faith in them to receive the desired effect of alleviating pain. I, personally, sit here in my agnostic world trying to assemble my own answer.
Again, Billy your humility and general ebullient style makes this another other post to treasure. :D
any to another
Billy_Dean
09-16-2003, 02:43 PM
BD
Religion is for people who can't comprehend reallity.
Hobbes
No religion is for people who need to believe that there is something better than the reality before us. Life for most people sucks. Even those who appear to have it all, are often miserable.
So you agree with me then?
Hobbes
Again, Billy your humility and general ebullient style makes this any other post to treasure
Why do I need humility when talking about religions that tell people like you and I that we are going to burn in hell?
B)
cowswithguns
09-16-2003, 03:05 PM
IMO Religion may give some people a false sense of strength and promise of eternal life but I'm one who believes that it has more to answer for than it may give.
It perpetuates itself in fear and is the cause of a great proportion of the world's discontent.
As far as I'm concerned you can shove it.
hobbes
09-16-2003, 06:46 PM
BD
Religion is for people who can't comprehend reallity.
So you agree with me then?
I don't know, maybe. I'm not sure what believing in reality is exactly. I believe I am sitting in a chair, but how does this belief explain initial creation? Reality is a perception which is limited by our crude senses. We have learned from animals, radioactive materials and electronics that huge amounts of "reality" are imperceptable to us. We have captured some of this information with technology, but how much more is out there of which we have no clue. So it is apparent that alot more is going on than we can perceive, there is a existence which is beyond our perceptions (what we call "reality"). The basic question everyone wants answered is why is there mass, space and time. How can we explain it? How did we get here?
Hobbes
Again, Billy your humility and general ebullient style makes this any other post to treasure
Why do I need humility when talking about religions that tell people like you and I that we are going to burn in hell?
Just a little inside barb. You have so many nice comments about American arrogance, I figured you would be the poster child of Australian modesty. Just letting you get a little insight into how you come across.
What if they are right? Is it possible. A humble man might consider the possibility. Well, I don't think they are right either, but no need to be nasty about it, eh? Just ruffle their hair and send them off for icecream.
I just noticed the signature by CWG's- you fellows ARE a modest lot. ;)
Biggles
09-16-2003, 07:49 PM
J2K4
I profess no great knowledge on US Constitutional affairs. Indeed I think I am right in saying that it is area of rich pickings for lawyers as they weave their own peculiar brand of magic in trying to develop new and interesting interpretations.
I also don't know much about the lump of rock - other than it sounded quite large and heavy (clearly not designed to hang in a tastefully discrete frame :) )
I think ultimately in any such situation, it is the intent of the individual rather than the act itself. The judge in question is unknown in these parts and consequently I can pass no comment with regards his intent. Those local are much better placed to examine the dynamics of the situation.
Much more interesting is the concept of "The Rights of Man". Although I am sure the founding fathers had only the highest motives I doubt whether any social edifice can truly defy the ill-intended. But then again, some safeguards are better than none.
I would be interested in what people think their rights are, and are they safeguarded or not? Without being too boring perhaps we could limit it to essential rights (is the right to party essential? ... perhaps. :rolleyes: )
I fear that although almost all religions do have a set of moral codes and, by and large, the basic tenets of these codes are the same, a theocracy is not a happy place to be. Perhaps I am being constricted by my own cultural boundaries, but I think I prefer a liberal democracy to any other form government. Of course, liberal democracies are messy and largely ill-disciplined and dis-organised. :) but what better way to keep at bay those who "know" what is best for us? Not the most visionary political standpoint I know. I think rather it is one borne out of seeing government in action over the years.
Sorry this has strayed off topic a little. The Rights of Man and God is there a link? :blink:
PS Thank you for your kind words Hobbes and Clocker - I never thought of Biggles as a clown before but it has a certain fit even if you are familiar with the books.
chalice
09-16-2003, 07:58 PM
I never thought of Biggles as a clown, wot, wot?
Chocks away, old Bean.
Biggles
09-16-2003, 08:01 PM
Well.... when you put it like that :D
It all seemed like daring do when I was 12
MagicNakor
09-17-2003, 12:07 AM
Now here's a question posed by a French philosopher; unfortunately, I cannot remember his name.
A man slept. And while he slept, he dreamt. In his dream, he went to Paradise. While in Paradise, he picked a flower. When he awoke, the flower was on his pillow.
Note: If you want, substitute Paradise for Heaven, Valhalla, the Elysian Fields, and so on. He chose Paradise so that every religion was covered. ;)
:ninja:
Biggles
09-17-2003, 12:27 AM
I am intrigued.
What was the question?
clocker
09-17-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by MagicNakor@16 September 2003 - 17:07
Now here's a question posed by a French philosopher; unfortunately, I cannot remember his name.
A man slept. And while he slept, he dreamt. In his dream, he went to Paradise. While in Paradise, he picked a flower. When he awoke, the flower was on his pillow.
Note: If you want, substitute Paradise for Heaven, Valhalla, the Elysian Fields, and so on. He chose Paradise so that every religion was covered. ;)
:ninja:
OK.
I follow the set-up, but what is the question?
Is this some sort of Zen thing?
hobbes
09-17-2003, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by MagicNakor@17 September 2003 - 01:07
Now here's a question posed by a French philosopher; unfortunately, I cannot remember his name.
A man slept. And while he slept, he dreamt. In his dream, he went to Paradise. While in Paradise, he picked a flower. When he awoke, the flower was on his pillow.
Note: If you want, substitute Paradise for Heaven, Valhalla, the Elysian Fields, and so on. He chose Paradise so that every religion was covered. ;)
:ninja:
Sleepwalker, obviously. I do it myself. Flowers are everywhere. I won't tell you what I woke up with the night I dreamt of Hell.
Since he was asleep, he probably should have awoken with the flower clutched in his hand. Maybe a friend placed the flower next to him. He could smell the aroma and his mind incorporated it into the dream.
Don't most questions come with a "?", somewhere?
MagicNakor
09-17-2003, 01:01 AM
Okay, I goofed. I forgot the question. ;) It's being paraphrased, though, since I don't remember it exactly.
How would you live, knowing that Paradise does exist, and that it is possible to attain?
Of course, you don't know what'll let you in, or keep you out...
It's not really a Zen thing - someone I know called this one "a mindfuck." ;)
However, there is a Zen one that was before this one in the conversation - Enlightenment is looking at the sun and realising that it is round.
:ninja:
chalice
09-17-2003, 01:07 AM
Wasn't it Pascalle who deliniated four scenarios for faith?
1. If you don't believe in God and there is no God then you have lost nothing.
2. If you don't believe in God but there is a God you have lost much.
3. If you believe in God and there is a God then you will gain.
4. If you believe in God but there is no God then you have lost nothing.
According to that, the smart money is on belief.
clocker
09-17-2003, 01:09 AM
So if you look at the Sun and realize that you've gone blind, then you've somehow missed the point?
clocker
09-17-2003, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by chalice@16 September 2003 - 18:07
Wasn't it Pascalle who deliniated four scenarios for faith?
1. If you don't believe in God and there is no God then you have lost nothing.
2. If you don't believe in God but there is a God you have lost much.
3. If you believe in God and there is a God then you will gain.
4. If you believe in God but there is no God then you have lost nothing.
According to that, the smart money is on belief.
Only if you buy into #4, Chalice.
Missing out on a lifetime of hot, monkey sex should count as something...
chalice
09-17-2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by clocker+17 September 2003 - 01:11--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 17 September 2003 - 01:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-chalice@16 September 2003 - 18:07
Wasn't it Pascalle who deliniated four scenarios for faith?
1. If you don't believe in God and there is no God then you have lost nothing.
2. If you don't believe in God but there is a God you have lost much.
3. If you believe in God and there is a God then you will gain.
4. If you believe in God but there is no God then you have lost nothing.
According to that, the smart money is on belief.
Only if you buy into #4, Chalice.
Missing out on a lifetime of hot, monkey sex should count as something... [/b][/quote]
lol, Clocker, I've never backed a winner in my life.
*edit* And you're right, ofcourse. A lifetime of hot monkey sex is better than an eternity remembering it.
clocker
09-17-2003, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by chalice@16 September 2003 - 18:14
lol, Clocker, I've never backed a winner in my life.
*edit* And you're right, ofcourse. A lifetime of hot monkey sex is better than an eternity remembering it.
http://www.beast-sex.net/pics/ud-chimp007b.jpg
Hop on the bandwagon, Chalice!
It may not be too late.
hobbes
09-17-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by chalice@17 September 2003 - 02:07
Wasn't it Pascalle who deliniated four scenarios for faith?
1. If you don't believe in God and there is no God then you have lost nothing.
2. If you don't believe in God but there is a God you have lost much.
3. If you believe in God and there is a God then you will gain.
4. If you believe in God but there is no God then you have lost nothing.
According to that, the smart money is on belief.
Which God, Pascalle? There are thousands of religions to chose from and many require specific acts and beliefs which are contrary to anothers'.
And are you asking me to actually believe in God or just follow the teachings of the "right" religion.
My mind does not have the ability to have "faith". I think "faith", like nationalism, like loyalty, is one of those things which are placed in the hardwiring of little children and becomes permanent when the mold has set. Nobody gave me this seed of "faith". I will always have doubts.
So Pascalle is really asking people to pretend they believe, which is a farce. To me religion is not percentages. You either have full faith or you don't. Any God who requires belief can spot a phony.
I just use my own sense of right and wrong to guide me and assume that if there is a God, he will appreciate my efforts and reward me.
No loving God would banish me to hell for eternity for a life that is just a nanosecond. If he isn't loving, then fuck him, you're doomed no matter what you do.
Edit: Here I am trying to save our immortal souls and Clocker is off f8cking monkeys.
MagicNakor
09-17-2003, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by clocker@17 September 2003 - 02:09
So if you look at the Sun and realize that you've gone blind, then you've somehow missed the point?
Well, I asked that too. ;) Then I was told that it'd work for the moon, if I was so inclined.
However, you can look at the sun for a short period of time. I've done it, and I'm not blind. :)
:ninja:
chalice
09-17-2003, 01:40 AM
I agree with you totally, Hobbes.
My mind cannot or will not accept anything beyond my own sphere.
Pascalle was obviously referring to the Christian set of beliefs but it is, in the main, applicable to all organised religions. To play the percentage, for a lot of people, is acceptable because it fills the void.
Religion, like politics, is learned. Sometimes it is disregarded for less defined "truths" and the whole scenario starts up all over again.
It is a wise man who knows he knows nothing.
clocker
09-17-2003, 01:42 AM
MN,
I'm running right out to the library and getting Zen for Dummies...
I'd like to see if it's possible to wake up with Renee Zellweger next to me.
chalice
09-17-2003, 01:54 AM
And just to qualify, I subscribe to neither nationalism nor loyalism.
I am not a catholic (big or small "c") nor a protestant.
Hardwiring can be re-wired.
hobbes
09-17-2003, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by chalice@17 September 2003 - 02:54
And just to qualify, I subscribe to neither nationalism nor loyalism.
I am not a catholic (big or small "c") nor a protestant.
Hardwiring can be re-wired.
Let me qualify that, I can see that I need to distill politics out of these terms.
If someone asks me where I am from, I say St. Louis, but I haven't actually lived there for 15 years. St. Louis is where my childhood was and what I identify as homebase. It doesn't matter how long I live in Texas, I will still feel like a visitor. Same with nationalism. I will always consider myself American, no matter where I live. So I want to separate out that I mean "identify with" and not "will forever blindly defend or follow". Hope that is clearer.
For myself, I followed the football Cardinals for many years, since I can remember actually. The team was terrible, but my parents, friends and I would get together every weekend and watch the game. We would be losing 31-0 in the 4th quarter and we were all sure that this week, we would come back and win. These are the delusional thoughts of sports fans about their hometeams.
Needless to say the owner moved the Cardinals to Arizona and St. Louis got a new team, the Rams. Although they play in St. Louis and have won the Superbowl, I only objectively root for them. They are in St. Louis, therefore they are my team. The passion just isn't there. This team is not what formed me, they are inposters. As for the Cardinals, I hate them. Rooting for them would be like rooting for your cheating lying ex-wife.
In fact, I live in San Antonio, Texas now. This year the Spurs won the title, I could careless. Meanwhile, in the college tournament, I was dying a little with every basket scored against my college team.
I hope people have their own sports analogies as it will make my point easier to comprehend. I bet you do, as you take your version of football quite seriously. When you move, do you switch team loyalty?
So by nationalism and loyalty I meant to stress your identification with a certain place or country or simply the "hometeam". I did not want to get into the political aspects of these words. You can take a man out of a country, but you cannot take the country out of the man.
chalice
09-17-2003, 02:54 AM
Just take the man out of the country, Hobbes, that's enough for me.
I see your point but sporting analogies fall short when it comes to religious endoctrination. I was raised in a strict catholic environment and, I agree, this resonates through my everyday life. I envy your objectivity but this has never been made available to me.
Even now, as an adult, in trying to educate my children, my beliefs are compromised at every turn. There is no educational structure where I live where a child can be taught without the old, rigid rules of religious conformity. My son has entered his third year of primary school (his first communion year) and the faeces will hit the fan when the school finds out that he has never been baptised. I fear for him. Really.
He is given ridiculous catacisms to recite and I must tow the line so as not to contradict whatever truisms those teachers impart upon him. There is no escape from it, not here anyway. I feel irreversible harm is being done to him daily and I must smile and nod.
I count myself lucky to have broken conditioning to some degree but catholic morals cast long shadows and what I hope are independent views are probably only echoes of contempt for being misled.
hobbes
09-17-2003, 03:32 AM
Yes, you have those Catholic guilts embedded in your wiring. Even if you can logically state that you need not feel guilty for "x" or "y", you feel guilty anyway (Is that what you meant when referring to "casting long shadows").
I endured many months of this dating the daughter of a former nun. Their living room was like a gift shop of crosses. Anything she enjoyed was considered a source of shame, and sex was just one of many items on that list.
You cannot never erase the effect your religious upbringing has imprinted on you, just like the cigarette smoker can never forget what that first cigarette tasted like. Oh, but if he could.
For you, this imprint serves as a source of anger, as you placed those teachings in there as a child, all in good faith, only to find out later you were being contaminated with shite.
Well, having never been exposed to religion, I have nothing in that slot. For you this slot is a source of anger, for me I wonder if my capability for "faith" was forever sealed when my hardwiring set. Although, as with you, you can be "unfaithed" but with some residua.
Well, I'm on the verge of a ramble, good night, it's been fun.
edit: "being on the verge" was probably an understatement :lol:
Originally posted by Biggles@16 September 2003 - 14:49
J2K4
I profess no great knowledge on US Constitutional affairs. Indeed I think I am right in saying that it is area of rich pickings for lawyers as they weave their own peculiar brand of magic in trying to develop new and interesting interpretations.
I also don't know much about the lump of rock - other than it sounded quite large and heavy (clearly not designed to hang in a tastefully discrete frame :) )
I think ultimately in any such situation, it is the intent of the individual rather than the act itself. The judge in question is unknown in these parts and consequently I can pass no comment with regards his intent. Those local are much better placed to examine the dynamics of the situation.
Much more interesting is the concept of "The Rights of Man". Although I am sure the founding fathers had only the highest motives I doubt whether any social edifice can truly defy the ill-intended. But then again, some safeguards are better than none.
I would be interested in what people think their rights are, and are they safeguarded or not? Without being too boring perhaps we could limit it to essential rights (is the right to party essential? ... perhaps. :rolleyes: )
I fear that although almost all religions do have a set of moral codes and, by and large, the basic tenets of these codes are the same, a theocracy is not a happy place to be. Perhaps I am being constricted by my own cultural boundaries, but I think I prefer a liberal democracy to any other form government. Of course, liberal democracies are messy and largely ill-disciplined and dis-organised. :) but what better way to keep at bay those who "know" what is best for us? Not the most visionary political standpoint I know. I think rather it is one borne out of seeing government in action over the years.
Sorry this has strayed off topic a little. The Rights of Man and God is there a link? :blink:
PS Thank you for your kind words Hobbes and Clocker - I never thought of Biggles as a clown before but it has a certain fit even if you are familiar with the books.
Ah-
You know, both sides have made much too much over the whole case of Moore's "rock".
It has been a showcase for astounding ignorance on both sides, with nobody even marginally equipped to argue or debate the unassailable facts of the matter, so really, though care should be taken when discussing it, neither side, pro or con, serves, or is served, by what passes for discourse.
The media is culpable also.
Billy_Dean
09-17-2003, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by chalice@17 September 2003 - 11:54
Even now, as an adult, in trying to educate my children, my beliefs are compromised at every turn. There is no educational structure where I live where a child can be taught without the old, rigid rules of religious conformity. My son has entered his third year of primary school (his first communion year) and the faeces will hit the fan when the school finds out that he has never been baptised. I fear for him. Really.
He is given ridiculous catacisms to recite and I must tow the line so as not to contradict whatever truisms those teachers impart upon him. There is no escape from it, not here anyway. I feel irreversible harm is being done to him daily and I must smile and nod.
I find this part of your post deeply disturbing Chalice.
I have fought battles with schools over religious education. The choice of faith to follow lies with the parent, not the school. Forced religious brainwashing must be fought against. Our children come first, their whole future is at stake. I feel you must fight for their rights, demand it, don't feel bad that your kids weren't baptised, feel proud, take the moral high ground. Tell them your kids are to be given other lessons when religious instruction comes up.
Or you could emigrate to Australia, schools here are very much different to the UK.
;)
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@17 September 2003 - 07:46
don't feel bad that your kids weren't baptised, feel proud, take the moral high ground. Tell them your kids are to be given other lessons when religious instruction comes up.
I hope you like your kids being teased :lol:
Billy_Dean
09-17-2003, 09:27 AM
ilw, I wouldn't allow my kids to be in a position like that.
I have four kids, and a grandson, none of whom have been baptised. All my children are glad not to have had religion forced on them.
Schools have no right to brainwash kids, full stop, I don't care what they say.
I've had several run-ins with schools in England with my two eldest over religious instruction, and always won, neither of them were teased.
In Australia, I have had no problems at all.
:)
cowswithguns
09-17-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by ilw+17 September 2003 - 08:20--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ilw @ 17 September 2003 - 08:20)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Billy_Dean@17 September 2003 - 07:46
don't feel bad that your kids weren't baptised, feel proud, take the moral high ground. Tell them your kids are to be given other lessons when religious instruction comes up.
I hope you like your kids being teased :lol: [/b][/quote]
I've found that in most primary schools here now the norm is for children who want religious instruction to attend those lessons at a nearby school eg a Catholic school or the like.
Parents have to give their permission for their children to attend. It is now not a compulsory part of school life. This is how it should be....it should NOT be forced on anyone.
Edit: I'm from Melbourne, Australia
Billy_Dean
09-17-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by ilw+17 September 2003 - 17:20--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ilw @ 17 September 2003 - 17:20)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Billy_Dean@17 September 2003 - 07:46
don't feel bad that your kids weren't baptised, feel proud, take the moral high ground. Tell them your kids are to be given other lessons when religious instruction comes up.
I hope you like your kids being teased :lol: [/b][/quote]
What a strange thing to say!
:huh:
why? I'm sure in many schools singling your child out for special treatment causes teasing. I'm sure if you did this for all your children that at least one of them must have experienced some blowback from it. And i doubt that N. Ireland is the most religiously tolerant place for children. Was never an issue at my school, we all had religious studies, but that was studying religion as a concept and the various religions.
Why the second reply?
Billy_Dean
09-17-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by ilw@18 September 2003 - 00:35
why? I'm sure in many schools singling your child out for special treatment causes teasing. I'm sure if you did this for all your children that at least one of them must have experienced some blowback from it. And i doubt that N. Ireland is the most religiously tolerant place for children. Was never an issue at my school, we all had religious studies, but that was studying religion as a concept and the various religions.
Why the second reply?
I don't see your point. The alternative, in this instance, was to have your kids taught things you were against, or a little teasing. Principles are principles, you stand by them.
I'm sure if you did this for all your children that at least one of them must have experienced some blowback from it
No!
Why the second reply?
I was bored, j2's no fun any more, he's run out of opinions to ridicule, so I thought I'd annoy you.
B)
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@17 September 2003 - 16:48
I'm sure if you did this for all your children that at least one of them must have experienced some blowback from it
No!
As far as u know....
let them be taught crap and just point out to them how much bollocks it is.
Principles are principles, you stand by them.
lol, very big of you when you're not the one paying the price.
Billy_Dean
09-17-2003, 04:00 PM
lol, very big of you when you're not the one paying the price.
Of course I'm paying the price, they're my kids, I have responsibilities towards them, and they have trust in me.
Better to teach them to handle teasing than allow adults to attempt to brainwash them.
B)
Ah the 'it builds character' reply, excellent response to your children being teased, and no, if you're unaware of the teasing you pay no price, but your kids do.
Billy_Dean
09-17-2003, 04:23 PM
Billy
I've had several run-ins with schools in England with my two eldest over religious instruction, and always won, neither of them were teased.
Maybe you didn't hear me, read again, they were not teased.
Or maybe you know more about my kid's lives than I do?
They weren't bullied either, OK?
I taught my kids well, don't worry, no-one puts it over them, any of them.
B)
Billy trust me no one knows your kids lives better than me :shifty:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@17 September 2003 - 11:23
Billy
I've had several run-ins with schools in England with my two eldest over religious instruction, and always won, neither of them were teased.
Maybe you didn't hear me, read again, they were not teased.
Or maybe you know more about my kid's lives than I do?
They weren't bullied either, OK?
I taught my kids well, don't worry, no-one puts it over them, any of them.
B)
So you say.
Are you positive, Billy, that you are privy to every comment your children hear?
How can you be so sure?
If your children are duty-bound to report any and all interactions to you daily so you can suss the intent of others, then you are brow-beating them; I am sure, however, you wouldn't be so cruel, especially to your own children.
You ridicule religion and those who would instruct their children thus (I agree that "school" is not, per se, the ideal venue for religious instruction), and then claim your children are immunized from the hazing of others by virtue of your own superior advisory-please convince me of the efficacy of your supposition?
If you are successful in doing so, I will adopt your stance, as it will surely sweep the world. ;)
Billy_Dean
09-17-2003, 05:22 PM
I just read your post out to a friend of mine and her comment was, "what an absolute wanker"
B)
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@17 September 2003 - 12:22
I just read your post out to a friend of mine and her comment was, "what an absolute wanker"
B)
So you're running out of opinions, too? :huh:
At least I'm not stooping to solicitation, Billy. B)
Billy out of curiousity were any of your children ever teased?
Edit: And what time is it in Australia, isn't it a bit early to be having a friend round and how come your checking posts on the internet at the same time?
Billy_Dean
09-17-2003, 05:29 PM
solicitation
n 1: an entreaty addressed to someone of superior status; "a solicitation to the king for relief" 2: request for a sum of money (as in church) [syn: appeal, collection, ingathering] 3: the act of enticing a person to do something wrong (as an offer of sex in return for money) [syn: allurement]
What she said ...
B)
Billy_Dean
09-17-2003, 05:33 PM
...what time is it in Australia ..
2:37 am
..isn't it a bit early to be having a friend round ...
No.
... and how come your checking posts on the internet at the same time?
Cos I'm clever.
B)
thewizeard
09-17-2003, 05:40 PM
Maybe this thread should be respectfully returned to the lounge, it could do it some good.
hobbes
09-17-2003, 11:34 PM
Well J2,
I guess it is official. Among Billy's illiterate friends, you are considered a "wanker". It is 2:37 a.m. and he has illiterate friends over. We call them prostitutes here in the states. I guess it has not dawned on old sausage boy, that when you used the word "solicitation", definition #3 was obvious and implied.
solicitation- 3: the act of enticing a person to do something wrong (as an offer of sex in return for money) [syn: allurement]
BTW: Did you get the "Around the world package"? You type naughty messages to ILW and J2 across the sea, then read her the responses aloud, while she wanks you. Something tells me that tip money may have been involved in her reply.
J2- EBP is from the UK, Billy Dean and Echidna are from Australia, don't forget myfiles3000 from Canada
I happen to agree with Billy on the school issue, though. Nobody is going to cram my kids head full of crap but me.
Billy_Dean
09-18-2003, 05:02 AM
Hobbes.
I guess it is official. Among Billy's illiterate friends, you are considered a "wanker". It is 2:37 a.m. and he has illiterate friends over. We call them prostitutes here in the states. I guess it has not dawned on old sausage boy, that when you used the word "solicitation", definition #3 was obvious and implied.
solicitation- 3: the act of enticing a person to do something wrong (as an offer of sex in return for money) [syn: allurement]
BTW: Did you get the "Around the world package"? You type naughty messages to ILW and J2 across the sea, then read her the responses aloud, while she wanks you. Something tells me that tip money may have been involved in her reply.
You, Hobbes, have just proved to the world what an arsehole you are. I was on the phone to a dear friend of mine, a respected mother of teenagers. J2's post came up and I read it out to her, that was her response, quite rightly too, he accused me of browbeating my kids, something she knows is not true.
You then call her an illiterate prostitute. She will be on later, she can then call you all the c*nts you deserve to be called.
I had a certain amount of respect for you Hobbes, that has now completely disappeared.
cowswithguns
09-18-2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@18 September 2003 - 05:02
Hobbes.
I guess it is official. Among Billy's illiterate friends, you are considered a "wanker". It is 2:37 a.m. and he has illiterate friends over. We call them prostitutes here in the states. I guess it has not dawned on old sausage boy, that when you used the word "solicitation", definition #3 was obvious and implied.
solicitation- 3: the act of enticing a person to do something wrong (as an offer of sex in return for money) [syn: allurement]
BTW: Did you get the "Around the world package"? You type naughty messages to ILW and J2 across the sea, then read her the responses aloud, while she wanks you. Something tells me that tip money may have been involved in her reply.
You, Hobbes, have just proved to the world what an arsehole you are. I was on the phone to a dear friend of mine, a respected mother of teenagers. J2's post came up and I read it out to her, that was her response, quite rightly too, he accused me of browbeating my kids, something she knows is not true.
You then call her an illiterate prostitute. She will be on later, she can then call you all the c*nts you deserve to be called.
I had a certain amount of respect for you Hobbes, that has now completely disappeared.
Hobbes,
Where do I start.........
Firstly I am far from illiterate and secondly, and most importantly, I am NOT and I repeat NOT a prostitute.
I stand by what I said.......J2 is a wanker, a first class one at that.
You, Hobbes, on the other hand are obnoxious. I liken you to cat sh*t, looks OK on the outside, but step on it and you find that something evil lies inside.
I do believe you owe me an apology.
hobbes
09-18-2003, 06:42 PM
Did you two actually notice my signature had changed? That was not random. I was putting together the circumstances in the most humorous and OTT way possible and I was able to tie in the word "solicitation" to boot, in a rather seamless fashion, I might add.
All in all, I thought it was one of my better efforts. You have to admit that I tied the circumstances into a rather tight and believable package. It is a shame that people who freely fling arrows at others, then ask them where their senses of humor are, are so easily and deeply wounded by return fire.
Lighten up, don't take yourselves so seriously and if you don't like being teased, then don't provoke it. I mean, you wished me many more 9/11's and I didn't flame you, why would I do so now about something that doesn't concern me? You should pick up on this incongruity.
See Billy, you guys flamed me, I just quenched them and moved on. I told you I lead by example.
CWG: I apologize to you because we are strangers and you had no way of knowing my true intent. In addition, I have no ego problem with saying I am sorry. I guess phone sex is not technically called "prostitution". <_< (yes, that's a joke).
Actually, I consider myself more like wine than catshit, an aquired taste.
Her is a little nonsense to lighten your moods (credit to 4play): http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail77.html
J'Pol
09-18-2003, 09:35 PM
I love it when people, who are happy to abuse and name-call others get onto the moral high ground and demand an apology when someone is "nasty" to them.
I also love it when people talk about what they are and aren't as if others should know this. The only way people know you here is thro' what you write and how you write it. So if someone forms an opinion of you it is based on your own words.
As an aside it appears in the modern world that Christian bashing is more acceptabe than any other religion bashing. However this only appears to be the case in "Christian countries". It appears that people can say pretty much what they want about followers of Christ and that is OK, however if one makes comment on Faiths such as Islam one is immediately branded a racist or some such thing.
Well I am a Catholic, I find your comments about my brainwashing personally offensive. I am not hard wired with anything. I am a rational person who has made up his own mind. I do not believe or follow all the teachings of the Catholic Church. However I do believe enough of them (particularly the important ones) to continue to describe myself as a Catholic.
I also know plenty of people who have been raised in an entirely non religious way, who have found their own faith and follow it. Who hard wired them. Or indeed who hard wired the atheists. (I leave agnostics out of this for obvous reasons).
thewizeard
09-18-2003, 09:37 PM
Nevertheless, I still think we should respect each others opinion and not be so personal. :(
Billy_Dean
09-19-2003, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by hobbes@19 September 2003 - 03:42
CWG: I apologize to you because we are strangers and you had no way of knowing my true intent. In addition, I have no ego problem with saying I am sorry. I guess phone sex is not technically called "prostitution". <_< (yes, that's a joke).
Actually, I consider myself more like wine than catshit, an aquired taste.
You can crawl out of it any way you want Hobbes, you apologised to Cowsy, so that's OK.
As to my "fight" with j2k4, I have a lot of respect for the man. Our arguments have been mostly good humoured. We have slung insults at each other without reverting to the vitriol you stooped to. It certainly wasn't your job to butt in with that shit. J2k4 is quite capable of looking after himself, as he has proved often enough.
@jpaul:
I love it when people, who are happy to abuse and name-call others get onto the moral high ground and demand an apology when someone is "nasty" to them.
First off, who did I demand an apology from? Read first JP, answer after.
I also love it when people talk about what they are and aren't as if others should know this. The only way people know you here is thro' what you write and how you write it. So if someone forms an opinion of you it is based on your own words.
Have I ever had a problem with that? Play me, not my friends.
I find it rather ironic that you should be defending the catholic church from a charge of brainwashing. I would have thought with all the shit and misery they have caused to so many people, and continue to cause, that an accusation like that was small fry.
I stand by my words, teaching religion, any religion, to young kids, who don't understand both sides is wrong, and an attempt to instill a doctrine before the child is old enough to make up their own mind.
The point you make about people being raised in a non religious way, then finding faith, reinforces my view, there is no need to force it on kids.
As to bashing Islam, be my guest, who cares. I personally find that it's judaism that is untouchable, not islam. I guess I'm anti-semetic, at least, I hope I am.
B)
JPaul I was wondering, which parts of the catholic faith do you believe and or follow? Is it mostly the ethics or is it more the spiritual teachings? Also are you a practicing catholic or is it simply the belief thats important to you?
clocker
09-19-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@18 September 2003 - 20:16
I guess I'm anti-semetic, at least, I hope I am.
Really?
thewizeard
09-19-2003, 01:55 PM
anti-Semitic=
hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
I can't believe this Rikk...
I'm hoping that he means that he is against the belief's of judaism, and judaism itself as a religion, and not that he would discriminate against those who follow the creed individually.
Puh-leeze say it is so Billy_Dean
clocker
09-19-2003, 02:34 PM
Billy Dean: from the "Palestine or Israel" thread...
Exeus, one of the reasons the mainstream media in Australia is pro-Israeli is because it is largely jewish owned. Not the stations, the content, which, as you will know, is mostly fed to us from the States.
Apparently an adherent of the old "Jewish Media Conspiracy" theory also.
Semitic
adj.
1. Of or relating to the Semites or their languages or cultures.
2. Of, relating to, or constituting a subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic language group that includes Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, and Aramaic.
Perhaps Billy didn't realise he was including most of the Middle East in his anti-semetic (sic) statement.
chalice
09-19-2003, 02:45 PM
I hate this thread.
Look what it has become. I hate it.
"evidence of a designed universe" (http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9403/evidence.html)
Good for a laugh at least.
(Sorry Chalice, this is a bit more on-topic)
Billy_Dean
09-19-2003, 05:55 PM
Anti-Semitism \An`ti-Sem"i*tism\, n. Opposition to, or hatred of, Semites, esp. Jews
Obviously it was, strictly speaking, the wrong phrase to use.
Snny.
I'm hoping that he means that he is against the belief's of judaism, and judaism itself as a religion, and not that he would discriminate against those who follow the creed individually.
I should have said this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is the sort of thing I mean. I'm sure there's other sides to this.
"The modern Jew is the product of the Talmud..."
"Babylonian Talmud", published by the Boston Talmud Society, p. XII
The Jews refer to the remainder of Earths inhabitants, the non-Jewish peoples, as "Gentiles", "Goyim". Let's see what the Jewish Talmud teaches the Jews concerning the non-Jewish majority, i.e. those who are not part of Jahve's "Chosen People":
"The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."
Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b
"The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honor the the dog more than the non-Jew."
Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30
"Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therfore he will be served by animals in human form."
Midrasch Talpioth, p. 255, Warsaw 1855
"A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal."
Coschen hamischpat 405
"The souls of non-Jews come from impure sprits and are called pigs."
Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b
"Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew like a monkey to a human."
Schene luchoth haberith, p. 250 b
"If you eat with a Gentile, it is the same as eating with a dog."
Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b
"If a Jew has a non-Jewish servant or maid who dies, one should not express sympathy to the Jew. You should tell the Jew: "God will replace 'your loss', just as if one of his oxen or asses had died"."
Jore dea 377, 1
"Sexual intercourse between Gentiles is like intercourse between animals."
Talmud Sanhedrin 74b
"It is permitted to take the body and the life of a Gentile."
Sepher ikkarim III c 25
"It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah."
Coschen hamischpat 425 Hagah 425. 5
"A heretic Gentile you may kill outright with your own hands."
Talmud, Abodah Zara, 4b
"Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God."
Talmud: Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772
Opposing this type of rubbish is also considered anti-semitic, that is my understanding.
Biggles
09-19-2003, 06:02 PM
Snny
An interesting link. However, I rather suspect the good Dr. has an a priori attachment to his faith which leads him to make the connections he has. This does not mean his conclusions are wrong, merely that it must be included in any analysis of his thesis.
I personally have no problem with the idea of intelligent design inherent in the Universe - I just don't see the connection between that and say, for example, not eating pig or for that matter whatever taboo is relevant to any particular faith here on Earth. The sheer antiquity of the Universe and the many attempts here on Earth by other species to establish themselves prior to man does beg a number of questions. We have existed only a short time in comparison to the many that have gone before. Life may be by design, but it is vanity to assume that we are the apex. We may simply be a step along the way.
There is, I suppose, a good argument for the position that all faiths are an attempt to commune with that intelligent design and consequently all faiths are equally valid. Unfortunately, the more vocal adherents of each religion are less than keen on this idea - each claiming sole ownership of the truth.
Therein lies the problem. In my view all religion is man made. Faith may be divine, but it is a walk apart from this earth and requires no validation from others nor does it seek to impose on others. However, that is only my view.
Chalice, I agree - it does appear to have become a little tetchy in here. Robust humour can be fun but the wheels can fall off very quickly.
I thought he'd incorporated a bit too much wishful thinking into the mix myself. But I too felt it was interesting to say the least.
Edit: in regards to the link.
J'Pol
09-19-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@19 September 2003 - 04:16
@jpaul:
I love it when people, who are happy to abuse and name-call others get onto the moral high ground and demand an apology when someone is "nasty" to them.
First off, who did I demand an apology from? Read first JP, answer after.
I also love it when people talk about what they are and aren't as if others should know this. The only way people know you here is thro' what you write and how you write it. So if someone forms an opinion of you it is based on your own words.
Have I ever had a problem with that? Play me, not my friends.
I find it rather ironic that you should be defending the catholic church from a charge of brainwashing. I would have thought with all the shit and misery they have caused to so many people, and continue to cause, that an accusation like that was small fry.
I stand by my words, teaching religion, any religion, to young kids, who don't understand both sides is wrong, and an attempt to instill a doctrine before the child is old enough to make up their own mind.
The point you make about people being raised in a non religious way, then finding faith, reinforces my view, there is no need to force it on kids.
As to bashing Islam, be my guest, who cares. I personally find that it's judaism that is untouchable, not islam. I guess I'm anti-semetic, at least, I hope I am.
B)
1. I did not say you had asked for an apology - you chose that shoe yourself.
2. I said I was a Catholic and defended the Catholic Faith. As with many organisations, particularly the older ones there are almost inevitably dark times and people who align themselves to it. I do not believe that I defended the Catholic Church.
3. People are also taught atheism. By the example of their parents and those around them. This is no different.
4. Your views are yours and you have the right to express them. Disagreeing with soemone however is an entirely different thing from attacking what they believe.
Originally posted by SnnY@19 September 2003 - 16:48
"evidence of a designed universe" (http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9403/evidence.html)
Good for a laugh at least.
(Sorry Chalice, this is a bit more on-topic)
It seems to me that he is taking natural facts, and using them as evidence that they are a bit too convenient for us to have been placed sonewhere with just the right conditions. He seems to ignore the obvious possibility that had the conditions for life been different, that we might have come to exist in another place.
In other words, it is not coincidence, the fact that the right conditions exist is the reason why we are here rather than a place which would not support life. Indeed, if the conditions for life were different, there is sufficient diversity in the universe to ensure that life would still have come to exist, although such life may not be in places which we would regard as habitable, never mind hospitable.
While I would not question his knowledge of Engineering and Materials Science, it seems doubtful if his skills in logic are all that well developed. He probably believes that if all mice are grey and all mice make holes in your walls, then everything that is grey makes holes in your walls. I hope he never gets elephants.
Billy_Dean
09-19-2003, 07:03 PM
I love it when people, who are happy to abuse and name-call others get onto the moral high ground and demand an apology when someone is "nasty" to them.
I'm quoting you here JP, your words.
4. Your views are yours and you have the right to express them. Disagreeing with soemone however is an entirely different thing from attacking what they believe.
How about when their religion, by it's own doctrine, is an attack on me? When a religion claims "their way" and their beliefs are the only true path, and their followers are the only ones who will find "salvation", is that not an attack on me?
"Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therefore he will be served by animals in human form."
Can I not attack this, because it is someone's belief?
:)
@lynx: it may be mad, but it's still an interesting perspective, no?
@billy_dean: I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't believe that modern jews live by this belief to any larger extent, and at any rate they do acknowledge that you have the potential at least to become human since there always is the option to convert :P
Billy_Dean
09-19-2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by SnnY@20 September 2003 - 04:09
@billy_dean: I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't believe that modern jews live by this belief to any larger extent, and at any rate they do acknowledge that you have the potential at least to become human since there always is the option to convert :P
Are you sure about that?
:)
Rat Faced
09-19-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by SnnY@19 September 2003 - 19:09
@lynx: it may be mad, but it's still an interesting perspective, no?
@billy_dean: I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't believe that modern jews live by this belief to any larger extent, and at any rate they do acknowledge that you have the potential at least to become human since there always is the option to convert :P
In any religion, Fundamentalism is wrong.
An ultra-orthodox Jew would not speak to you if he could help it, and certainly would not invite you into a social gathering...exactly because he believes this.
An ultra-orthodox jew barely recognises other jews, if they are not ultra-orthodox.
Thankfully, most Jews are not ultra-orthodox, just like most muslims and christians are not fundamentalist.
People should be judged by who they are, not on a misunderstanding as to their beliefs, based on a generalization.
I would also ask you to look into conversion.....its not easy to convert to Judaism.
You have to prove you have a jewish soul 1st.....
This is the one Religion of the world not trying to save you, conversion is actively discouraged by Rabbi's. You either have a Jewish soul or dont...its upto you to prove it. If you dont, your not one of the chosen....simple.
J'Pol
09-19-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@19 September 2003 - 20:03
I love it when people, who are happy to abuse and name-call others get onto the moral high ground and demand an apology when someone is "nasty" to them.
I'm quoting you here JP, your words.
4. Your views are yours and you have the right to express them. Disagreeing with soemone however is an entirely different thing from attacking what they believe.
How about when their religion, by it's own doctrine, is an attack on me? When a religion claims "their way" and their beliefs are the only true path, and their followers are the only ones who will find "salvation", is that not an attack on me?
"Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therefore he will be served by animals in human form."
Can I not attack this, because it is someone's belief?
:)
Are you being obtuse - who mentioned your name. I certainly did not. You quote me - probably a good idea to read the quote. Like I said earlier, if you chose to try that particular shoe on and found that it fit that is a matter between you and .... you.
When did I attack your belief in atheism (if that's not a contradiction in terms). I have never described you as an animal, I have nothing against animals. Neither have I cast scorn on what was programed into your brain.
You have every right to defend yourself, at least I believe so. However that is entirely different from scattergun attacks on anyone who happens to believe in a deity.
My point (if I had one was) A. That most jews don't live by those, somewhat skewed ideals
And B. That they acknowledge the possibility of you "being human" if it's up to you to prove, it certainly makes it harder, but there is still a chance, although slimmer than I would have liked to think.
And yes fundamentalism is wrong, and come to think of it so is most forms of organized religion, given the amount of misery it has caused during centuries passed.
But you certainly can't judge anyone on the basis of their particular beliefs alone,
unless, of course, those beliefs involve an enforced lack of acceptance towards the rest of mankind.
Edit: am I wrong in any way here?, any jews in the audience? :)
Edit again: @ratfaced: who were you aiming at?, I was a bit off with regards to the conversion bit, but I tried to say the same thing you did otherwise ie: most jews do not live with the belief that gentiles are animals. :)
Billy_Dean
09-20-2003, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by JPaul@20 September 2003 - 04:26
[QUOTE]I love it when people, who are happy to abuse and name-call others get onto the moral high ground and demand an apology when someone is "nasty" to them.
Come off it JP, this remark was aimed at me, and you know it was! You're like the kid with jam round his mouth, denying he'd had his fingers in the jar. Go read back, put your words in perspective, stop squirming.
You then go on to deny calling me an animal! Did someone accuse you of that too?
Religions feel free to attack anything they see fit, and do so all the time. When they are attacked back, they appeal for "respect" whilst showing little in return.
Someone once claimed that if it were not for the catholic church, man would have landed on the moon 1000 years ago. An interesting thought.
:)
hobbes
09-20-2003, 04:14 AM
Where is Cowswithguns? I thought she would be udderly delighted with my apology. Must be out to pasture.
Again, it is ironic that the very vehicles which claim a loving God, a forgiving God are the cause of so much strife.
Billy_Dean
09-20-2003, 04:32 AM
I had a long talk to an Afghani mate yesterday, a muslim by birth, but not by practise. He is an unashamed jew hater, his right of course, just as many jews hate muslims.
We had a long discussion\argument on lots of issues, but there was one really funny interlude. It began when he asked why, if jews were god's "chosen people", did this god not intervene in the holocaust. After all, he said, hitler was only one man, surely their god was more powerful than that? He then went on to talk about the jewish "homeland", and asked why, if they were god's chosen people, did he give them some of the worst land in the world. With all the beautiful, green productive land around the world, why there? He then said god was probably trying to lead them somewhere nice, but these stupid people kept getting lost in the desert, after 40 years of this, god finally gave up and said, here, here it is, you've arrived, and left them to it.
Well it was funny at the time anyway.
:)
hobbes
09-20-2003, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 05:32
I had a long talk to an Afghani mate yesterday, a muslim by birth, but not by practise. He is an unashamed jew hater, his right of course, just as many jews hate muslims.
We had a long discussion\argument on lots of issues, but there was one really funny interlude. It began when he asked why, if jews were god's "chosen people", did this god not intervene in the holocaust. After all, he said, hitler was only one man, surely their god was more powerful than that? He then went on to talk about the jewish "homeland", and asked why, if they were god's chosen people, did he give them some of the worst land in the world. With all the beautiful, green productive land around the world, why there? He then said god was probably trying to lead them somewhere nice, but these stupid people kept getting lost in the desert, after 40 years of this, god finally gave up and said, here, here it is, you've arrived, and left them to it.
Well it was funny at the time anyway.
:)
Well, remember God has not always been in good temper. He did kill every human being and animal with the great flood. The holocaust was a triviality compared to that. It wasn't a rash decision either as the ark took 104 years to construct.
If the land is worthless, why are the Palestineans fighting for the same plot?
Billy_Dean
09-20-2003, 04:49 AM
If the land is worthless, why are the Palestineans fighting for the same plot?
Maybe their god doesn't give a shit either!
:)
hobbes
09-20-2003, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 05:49
If the land is worthless, why are the Palestineans fighting for the same plot?
Maybe their god doesn't give a shit either!
:)
I guess it goes back to how pathetic the whole situation is.
Two sides, fighting to the death, over Gods which don't exist and land that is totally worthless.
Reminds me of myself trying to pick up ugly chicks in the bar parking lot after closing time- a lose/lose proposition.
james_bond_rulez
09-20-2003, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by hobbes@20 September 2003 - 05:10
Reminds me of myself trying to pick up ugly chicks in the bar parking lot after closing time- a lose/lose proposition.
why would u wanna do that?
:D
hobbes
09-20-2003, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by james_bond_rulez+20 September 2003 - 07:00--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (james_bond_rulez @ 20 September 2003 - 07:00)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@20 September 2003 - 05:10
Reminds me of myself trying to pick up ugly chicks in the bar parking lot after closing time- a lose/lose proposition.
why would u wanna do that?
:D [/b][/quote]
You only realise they are ugly the next day.
See related topic "beer goggles".
james_bond_rulez
09-20-2003, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by hobbes+20 September 2003 - 06:06--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 20 September 2003 - 06:06)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@20 September 2003 - 07:00
<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@20 September 2003 - 05:10
Reminds me of myself trying to pick up ugly chicks in the bar parking lot after closing time- a lose/lose proposition.
why would u wanna do that?
:D
You only realise they are ugly the next day.
See related topic "beer goggles". [/b][/quote]
lolololololololol
thewizeard
09-20-2003, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 05:32
I had a long talk to an Afghani mate yesterday, a muslim by birth, but not by practise. He is an unashamed jew hater, his right of course, just as many jews hate muslims.
We had a long discussion\argument on lots of issues, but there was one really funny interlude. It began when he asked why, if jews were god's "chosen people", did this god not intervene in the holocaust. After all, he said, hitler was only one man, surely their god was more powerful than that? He then went on to talk about the jewish "homeland", and asked why, if they were god's chosen people, did he give them some of the worst land in the world. With all the beautiful, green productive land around the world, why there? He then said god was probably trying to lead them somewhere nice, but these stupid people kept getting lost in the desert, after 40 years of this, god finally gave up and said, here, here it is, you've arrived, and left them to it.
Well it was funny at the time anyway.
:)
Well Rikk, your Afghani friend appears to have an extensive knowledge of the Torah, maybe, being a muslim, he should read a little more in his Koran, then he would never make such jokes.
Billy_Dean
09-20-2003, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by nigel123+20 September 2003 - 16:30--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nigel123 @ 20 September 2003 - 16:30)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 05:32
Well Rikk, your Afghani friend appears to have an extensive knowledge of the Torah, maybe, being a muslim, he should read a little more in his Koran, then he would never make such jokes.[/b][/quote]
Did I say he had an extensive knowledge of the Torah?
What I did say was that he was a non practising muslim.
:)
thewizeard
09-20-2003, 08:06 AM
It makes me feel unsettled when jokes are made about the killing of millions of people. (or any for that matter)
Billy_Dean
09-20-2003, 08:20 AM
It wasn't a joke, I found it funny in the context of the conversation.
He said it as a reply to two aspects of judaism: 1. That jews are god's chosen people. 2. That land was "given" to them by their god.
Or is he, as a muslim, practising or not, not entitled to refute claims made by another religion?
BTW, you should hear his views on islam, a religion he grew up with in Afghanistan. His views would certainly annoy many muslims.
:)
cowswithguns
09-20-2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by hobbes@20 September 2003 - 14:14
Where is Cowswithguns? I thought she would be udderly delighted with my apology. Must be out to pasture.
Again, it is ironic that the very vehicles which claim a loving God, a forgiving God are the cause of so much strife.
No Hobbes, not out to pasture just yet....
Udderly thrilled with the apology, thanks.
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 05:32
I had a long talk to an Afghani mate yesterday, a muslim by birth, but not by practise. He is an unashamed jew hater, his right of course, just as many jews hate muslims.
We had a long discussion\argument on lots of issues, but there was one really funny interlude. It began when he asked why, if jews were god's "chosen people", did this god not intervene in the holocaust. After all, he said, hitler was only one man, surely their god was more powerful than that? He then went on to talk about the jewish "homeland", and asked why, if they were god's chosen people, did he give them some of the worst land in the world. With all the beautiful, green productive land around the world, why there? He then said god was probably trying to lead them somewhere nice, but these stupid people kept getting lost in the desert, after 40 years of this, god finally gave up and said, here, here it is, you've arrived, and left them to it.
Well it was funny at the time anyway.
:)
I find that whole post disturbing. Particularly when taken in the context of previous posts you have made.
You find concept like "Jew Hater" easy to deal with and you have described yourself as anti-semitic.
Never mind your religious beliefs, I am more concerned about your political ones.
james_bond_rulez
09-20-2003, 12:23 PM
amen
Billy_Dean
09-20-2003, 01:16 PM
JPaul:
Never mind your religious beliefs, I am more concerned about your political ones.
What do you want to know?
:)
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 14:16
JPaul:
Never mind your religious beliefs, I am more concerned about your political ones.
What do you want to know?
:)
If you don't mind discusssing it - what your political persuasions are.
For example would you consider yourself a socialst, or would you consider yourself as being more conservative. Do your allegiances lie to the left or right of center. In either case would it be slightly or more extreme. In fact do you hold political views which would normally be considered extreme. In either direction.
Billy_Dean
09-20-2003, 01:28 PM
If I lean at all, it would be left, and sometimes right. Is there a position for cynicism?
I don't vote, never have and never will, tweedle dum and tweedle dee politics don't interest me.
My views on lots of things would be considered extreme, were you to know my true feelings.
:)
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 14:28
My views on lots of things would be considered extreme, were you to know my true feelings.
:)
I am interested, you don't seem like the sort of chap to hide his views. You certainly haven't given that impression.
Billy_Dean
09-20-2003, 02:09 PM
You'll really have to be more specific JP, I'm not gonna write a book. What exactly did you want to know? Or am I just meant to say something outrageous?
:)
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 15:09
You'll really have to be more specific JP, I'm not gonna write a book. What exactly did you want to know? Or am I just meant to say something outrageous?
:)
Say something, don't say something, it's entirely a matter for you.
You said you had some views which may be thought extreme by others. It simply piqued my curiosity. So I wondered if you would elucidate. If you wish not to that's cool.
I can't really be more specific, as I am totally unaware what your extreme views may be. A hint perhaps as to what area(s) they may cover.
This sounds like fishing with a very long pole.
I believe they call it trolling. ;)
Billy_Dean
09-20-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by lynx@20 September 2003 - 23:17
This sounds like fishing with a very long pole.
I believe they call it trolling. ;)
I think you're right!
Let me say again JP, if you wish to hear my opinion on a certain subject, ask me, I'll be happy to oblige.
As for opinions, I have hundreds, thousands maybe, who knows? How many do you have? Whether or not they are controversial, that's subjective, I would need to express them all, you would then have to decide. I don't see that happening.
:)
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@20 September 2003 - 14:28
My views on lots of things would be considered extreme, were you to know my true feelings.
:)
This is what I was responding to. You said you had views which could be considered extreme.
As I said several posts ago if you want to discuss them cool, if not then no problem either way.
How is that fishing ?
In fact this is exactly what I said
"Say something, don't say something, it's entirely a matter for you.
You said you had some views which may be thought extreme by others. It simply piqued my curiosity. So I wondered if you would elucidate. If you wish not to that's cool."
How is that fishing ?
I thought you were an adult, given that you have stated you have children of your own, that is a reasonable assumption. If you want to talk and debate even argue, that's fine by me. Particularly if we have views which differ. Debating things which we agree on is really rather boring. If not fair enough it really isn't that important.
Biggles
09-20-2003, 04:13 PM
It is interesting that a thread on religion should ultimately disintegrate into a slanging match.
Interesting but ultimately not surprising I suppose. :ph34r:
Originally posted by Biggles@20 September 2003 - 17:13
It is interesting that a thread on religion should ultimately disintegrate into a slanging match.
I think we generally manage that whatever the topic :-"
hobbes
09-20-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Biggles@20 September 2003 - 17:13
It is interesting that a thread on religion should ultimately disintegrate into a slanging match.
Interesting but ultimately not surprising I suppose. :ph34r:
This process is inevitable, I think it has to do with our "biorhythm". People will engage in intense back and forth dicussion for a variable yet finite amout of time. If resolution does not occur in this framework, minds will stray and the focus lost. Slanging is one of the options pursued in this break period and the thread will meanander about for a while until someone with a fresh mind joins in to refocus it. Meanwhile, our mods have been tossing the thread from forum to forum to match each post ;).
This process is not dependent on the subject matter, I think you will find evidence of this in every thread. We can only be intense and serious for so long, then we need to lighten it up, take a break.
I find this type of rhythm somewhat similar to what we observe in real life. Have you ever been in a busy restaurant, people talking busily, waiters shuffling about, silverware clanging, then suddenly, without cue, complete silence - everyone stops talking a once. A weird occurance where everyone takes a break simultaneously.
Anyway to push this thread back toward being on track, who is afraid of death? I am, it is the only thing I really fear.
I would like to go back to something JPaul said about death. He claimed to be afraid of death.
I was wondering if he meant:
1. Fear of what happens after death. Judgement or nothingness.
2. Fear of the moment when you realize you are actually dying (seconds to minutes away).
3. Fear of dying- the longer term process of a used body wasting away in some nursing home. Your former vibrant self reduced to a babbling poo-poo pants. You look at these people and say, "I never want that to be me!".
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by hobbes@20 September 2003 - 17:33
2. Fear of the moment when you realize you are actually dying (seconds to minutes away).
3. Fear of dying- the longer term process of a used body wasting away in some nursing home. Your former vibrant self reduced to a babbling poo-poo pants. You look at these people and say, "I never want that to be me!".
For me it's probably because I have watched both things happen. Twice each and very close up.
Rat Faced
09-20-2003, 05:26 PM
For me 3/
and, to be honest:
4/ Pain before death.
Death itself, i dont fear.........its what precedes it, that I dont like.
clocker
09-20-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Rat Faced@20 September 2003 - 10:26
Death itself, i dont fear.........its what precedes it, that I dont like.
Life?
Rat Faced
09-20-2003, 05:32 PM
:huh: :unsure: :unsure:
thewizeard
09-20-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by clocker+20 September 2003 - 18:27--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 20 September 2003 - 18:27)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@20 September 2003 - 10:26
Death itself, i dont fear.........its what precedes it, that I dont like.
Life? [/b][/quote]
You summed it up well clocker.
jbrockz
09-20-2003, 08:54 PM
as far as death is concrned, a quote from Fight Club always comes to mind ''...someday you will die, and until you know that, you are useless''
actually many FC quotes have maening for me...not that i m some tyler durden wannabe...they just make sense in a world gone mad
''you are not a beautiful and unique snowflake...you are the same decaying organic matter as everything else...we are all part of the same compost heap...we are the all singing all dancing crap of the world''
as for the ''...someday you will die, and until you know that, you are useless'' part, well think about it...if only we let ourself realize that eventually we are going to die, we wouldn't fear it as much...and many businesses wouldn't be able to take advantage of our fear, cryo-labs for example.
as for the rest, well, think about it, that's what humankind has been reduced to. you are born, you go to school, you study, you wor your ass off until you get an ulcer or cancer and then you grow old and wear diapers and die. if you are not bright, you'll end up being a janitor or a dishwasher, clean other's shit all your life and die...or worse, you'll join a gang, and one fine day, you'll be pumped lead in for something as stupid as a cigarette. you might be a bright young promising professional, looking at playing in millions, but you might get shot while taking a few dollars out the ATM. i stay pepared for all this, and that actually makes me happy. i like to live with this in the back of my mind so that i won't hold back when i have the chance to indulge in the little pleasures of life that are scattered here and there.
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 09:09 PM
Two "think about it" in one post.
People either will or won't - you dont have to give stage directions.
hobbes
09-20-2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by JPaul@20 September 2003 - 22:09
Two "think about it" in one post.
People either will or won't - you dont have to give stage directions.
Place obligatory "That's a bit h4r5h" here.
jbrockz
09-20-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by JPaul@20 September 2003 - 21:09
Two "think about it" in one post.
People either will or won't - you dont have to give stage directions.
i don't have to give [unintended] stage directions....you don't have to decide what are and aren't stage directions.
got a reply to the point?..and you don't get to decide what is and isn't a valid point....if you have one that's fine, if you don't that's fine too
i believe the term is ''conversational english''
titey
09-20-2003, 10:33 PM
http://www.piczonline.com/client/titey/shock.gif There was a point?
hobbes
09-20-2003, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by titey@20 September 2003 - 23:33
http://www.piczonline.com/client/titey/shock.gif There was a point?
Carpe diem, I believe.
jbrockz
09-20-2003, 10:38 PM
read the last two pages...is there a point to this thread?...i wrote my view and expected someone to reply to, even criticize, the view. the point is the view, not my english. i guess that was the point to my reply to jpaul, in case you are wondering.
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by jbrockz+20 September 2003 - 23:28--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jbrockz @ 20 September 2003 - 23:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@20 September 2003 - 21:09
Two "think about it" in one post.
People either will or won't - you dont have to give stage directions.
i don't have to give [unintended] stage directions....you don't have to decide what are and aren't stage directions.
got a reply to the point?..and you don't get to decide what is and isn't a valid point....if you have one that's fine, if you don't that's fine too [/b][/quote]
Thanks for that, very magnanimous of you.
It really is just annoying when people say, think about that. It is condescending, people here don't need instructions. We are aware of the concept of reading something then thinking about it.
Think about that is something you would say to a child, just before you grounded them.
If you want a reply to the post - what does "if your not that bright you will become a Janitor, or a dishwasher" mean. My mother worked as a cleaner in an old people's home for many years. She did it to help raise her children and give us a good standard of life. I can assure you she was very bright. However her own upbringing had not provided her with an education that could prove it. Her own mother was widowed in her 30's with 6 children, so they all left school to get jobs and support the family.
I know many people who are in "menial" jobs who are extremely bright and interesting. However for a variety of reasons, ranging from circumstance to personal choice they are not in highly paid jobs or jobs with an elevated status.
So you think about that before you go insulting people with your ill thought out posts. Particularly as you appear to be basing your life's philosophy on a good (if ultimately shallow) movie.
jbrockz
09-20-2003, 10:40 PM
Carpe Diem indeed, hobbes :)
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by hobbes+20 September 2003 - 23:36--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 20 September 2003 - 23:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-titey@20 September 2003 - 23:33
http://www.piczonline.com/client/titey/shock.gif There was a point?
Carpe diem, I believe. [/b][/quote]
I prefer Carpe Jugulum - but you knew that already.
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by jbrockz@20 September 2003 - 23:40
Carpe Diem indeed, hobbes :)
So what's your reply to my last Horace.
hobbes
09-20-2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by JPaul+20 September 2003 - 23:42--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 20 September 2003 - 23:42)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by hobbes@20 September 2003 - 23:36
<!--QuoteBegin-titey@20 September 2003 - 23:33
http://www.piczonline.com/client/titey/shock.gif There was a point?
Carpe diem, I believe.
I prefer Carpe Jugulum - but you knew that already. [/b][/quote]
No, I thought it was "Carpe scrotum"
Nice thought, well presented
Rat Faced
09-20-2003, 10:48 PM
I know many people who are in "menial" jobs who are extremely bright and interesting. However for a variety of reasons, ranging from circumstance to personal choice they are not in highly paid jobs or jobs with an elevated status.
I know people that are Rich and unhappy.
I know people that are classed as poor, however are extremely happy.
I consider the happy ones successful in life.....
I prefer Nightwatch, but shouldnt the preferences be in BookWorld ;)
jbrockz
09-20-2003, 10:54 PM
to jpaul
you expect me to take into account all 6 billion plus people and their lives before posting something....please don't mind me saying this but you strike me as a person for whom the meaning lies in words only, a critique of words rahter than their meaning . you with your thousand words, it seems couldn't understand the jist...something that hobbes summed up in two words....when i m driving to my point, many things have to be generalized. my own mother works as a bank teller. she was on her way to becoming a very good actresses when she got married to the wrong guy while in acting school, had me thinking that would change him and later divorced him for my safety, then became a bank teller to support me....my remark was towards those who go around thinking life is beautiful and we are all blessed and all that horseshit, who delude themselves from the reality of life and then are shocked when it hits them in the face.
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 10:54 PM
I will not cross swords with the erudite.
Hobbes and RF, I doff my cap to you - for now.
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by jbrockz@20 September 2003 - 23:54
to jpaul
you expect me to take into account all 6 billion plus people and their lives before posting something....please don't mind me saying this but you strike me as a person for whom the meaning lies in words only, a critique of words rahter than their meaning . you with your thousand words, it seems couldn't understand the jist...something that hobbes summed up in two words....when i m driving to my point, many things have to be generalized. my own mother works as a bank teller. she was on her way to becoming a very good actresses when she got married to the wrong guy while in acting school, had me thinking that would change him and later divorced him for my safety, then became a bank teller to support me....my remark was towards those who go around thinking life is beautiful and we are all blessed and all that horseshit, who delude themselves from the reality of life and then are shocked when it hits them in the face.
So, in short, you should have known better than to insult hard working people.
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 10:56 PM
Is that succinct enough for you.
jbrockz
09-20-2003, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by JPaul@20 September 2003 - 22:39
Particularly as you appear to be basing your life's philosophy on a good (if ultimately shallow) movie.
the quote from FC was used to further the view and not as a basis for the view...just a clarification
jbrockz
09-20-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by JPaul@20 September 2003 - 22:55
So, in short, you should have known better than to insult hard working people.
not at all, i generalized the situations in life in order to give meaning to the central pont...i still stand by what i said..every word, including the ones about janitors...i have respect for the simple people, in case you want it spelled out for you...i repect the whore more than the socialite cause the whoe would be less racist than the socialite any day, just an example, not a philisopphy, in cas you want it spelled out for you.....oppps, i did it again
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by jbrockz+21 September 2003 - 00:06--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jbrockz @ 21 September 2003 - 00:06)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@20 September 2003 - 22:55
So, in short, you should have known better than to insult hard working people.
not at all, i generalized the situations in life in order to give meaning to the central pont...i still stand by what i said..every word, including the ones about janitors...i have respect for the simple people, in case you want it spelled out for you...i repect the whore more than the socialite cause the whoe would be less racist than the socialite any day, just an example, not a philisopphy, in cas you want it spelled out for you.....oppps, i did it again [/b][/quote]
The "simple people", are you doing this deliberately.
You sir are a total dickhead. You insult in a fashion which beggars belief. You generalise as a way of life "the whore is less racist than the socialite". On what do you base this drivel, other than your own prejudice.
clocker
09-20-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by jbrockz@20 September 2003 - 16:06
...i repect the whore more than the socialite cause the whoe would be less racist than the socialite any day, just an example, not a philisopphy
And this view is based on extensive experience with both, I assume?
jbrockz
09-20-2003, 11:21 PM
On what do you base this drivel....
trust me, of all the things, that question was the most predictable one....and not cause it is the standard reply everytime i have used this arguement [there have been people who have understood it without explaining it all to them, including a priest with whom i discuss theology]
the whore is less racist than the socialite....she will sleep with a black man, a white, a hispanic, a hindu, a christian, an african tribal...whereas a socialite...hmm. since my vocabulary is not as elaborate as yours, sir, i'd like to give an example [pardon me, cause its another movie] In Cruel iNTENTIONS, the character of selma blair's charachter's mom who insults the black guy when she finds out about their love. sorry, i am vauge in the particulars of the movie cause it's been a long time since i saw it.
jbrockz
09-20-2003, 11:24 PM
why are my number of posts stuck at 3...its been moe than five in this thread itself :unsure:
hobbes
09-20-2003, 11:25 PM
If I start drinking heavily, I think I might see the logical endpoint to this exchange. Currently, I just see large spigots of urine passing left and right over my head.
Maybe we could just toast to a pleasant Saturday night and start afresh elsewhere. I'm going to the store right now.
JPaul, get back in the lounge and shake those people up a little. Lounge has been too slow lately.
thewizeard
09-20-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by jbrockz@21 September 2003 - 00:24
why are my number of posts stuck at 3...its been moe than five in this thread itself :unsure:
Off topic, posts don't count here...
jbrockz
09-20-2003, 11:29 PM
thanks :)
Originally posted by Rat Faced@20 September 2003 - 17:48
I know many people who are in "menial" jobs who are extremely bright and interesting. However for a variety of reasons, ranging from circumstance to personal choice they are not in highly paid jobs or jobs with an elevated status.
I know people that are Rich and unhappy.
I know people that are classed as poor, however are extremely happy.
I know people, too.
They're neat, but for now I'll just read you guys; thats neat, too. :)
J'Pol
09-20-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by jbrockz@21 September 2003 - 00:21
On what do you base this drivel....
trust me, of all the things, that question was the most predictable one....and not cause it is the standard reply everytime i have used this arguement [there have been people who have understood it without explaining it all to them, including a priest with whom i discuss theology]
the whore is less racist than the socialite....she will sleep with a black man, a white, a hispanic, a hindu, a christian, an african tribal...whereas a socialite...hmm. since my vocabulary is not as elaborate as yours, sir, i'd like to give an example [pardon me, cause its another movie] In Cruel iNTENTIONS, the character of selma blair's charachter's mom who insults the black guy when she finds out about their love. sorry, i am vauge in the particulars of the movie cause it's been a long time since i saw it.
You are quite obviously in need of help.
The bricklayer will build a house for anyone and can still be a racist. The restaurateur will sell food to someone he despises, so long as they pay. The fact that a person provides a service for recompense does not diminish the contempt in which they may hold the customer.
A true professional can separate their job from their feelings.
It is time you understood. The people you are discussing these thing with are indulging your ill-informed opinions, in order to encourage you to think and form opinions for yourself. That doesn't mean they agree with you, they merely wish to encourage your independent thought.
However at some stage you must fly the nest and be responsible for what you say. It is then that you must be able to back up this drivel which you currently believe to be rational thinking.
jbrockz
09-21-2003, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by JPaul+20 September 2003 - 23:31--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 20 September 2003 - 23:31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-jbrockz@21 September 2003 - 00:21
...there have been people who have understood it without explaining it all to them, including a priest with whom i discuss theology...
The bricklayer will build a house for anyone and can still be a racist. The restaurateur will sell food to someone he despises, so long as they pay. The fact that a person provides a service for recompense does not diminish the contempt in which they may hold the customer.
A true professional can separate their job from their feelings.
It is time you understood. The people you are discussing these thing with are indulging your ill-informed opinions, in order to encourage you to think and form opinions for yourself. That doesn't mean they agree with you, they merely wish to encourage your independent thought.
However at some stage you must fly the nest and be responsible for what you say. It is then that you must be able to back up this drivel which you currently believe to be rational thinking. [/b][/quote]
if i m in need of help, i believe the priest would have told me if that was the case....
you, sir, seem to have a lot of opinions about WHO i m from the time you wrote ''stage directions''.
you have read what i have written within the last 30 minutes and think you know me as a person. and you base your opinions about me on that picture that has been formed in your mind from this little talk. you ask me to fly from my nest whithout thinking that maybe my opinions are off-beat because i have 'flown away' [and i don't mean to a mental health facility :D ]
the only personal observation that i have made about you is that you are a critique of words and not their meaning, cause that's the only thing that i have observed here, and i am not even saying i m right. other than that i have no personal opinions about you as a person, and all my replies have been to your arguements and not you.
you think i am writing all this cause i am some high school kid who would indulge in stupidity if so encouraged by others. i would say that's coming from someone who absolutely doesn't know me [to begin with i m not a high school kid].
also, you might be thinking while reading this that i m going to the priest for counselling or something. actually, i am a hindu and i met the priest on another forum like this one a long time ago. he liked some things i wrote and the trusting man of God that he is, he told me where he was based. it happened to be near where i was and we have been discussing theology ever since.
and in case you are wondering, i am not religious either. i believe in God, but not in the path that religions have prescribed for us in order to reach God, to attain salvation. i duscuss my views with him cause he is a priest and i am quite sure he wouldn't judge me prematurely [also the confidentiality factor]. And i think my views on that would be falling in the wrong 'ears' if i were to discuss it here, so i'll let it pass, cause you obviously think i am a nut.
my humble request to you would be to reply without forming an opinion about ME , cause i consider that to be shallow at best.
as regards the whore-socialite conversation, if you have seen the movie made on bruce lee's life [oops, another movie], he was refused a table at a 'white' resturant when he went on his first date with his to be wife. ina Hallmark movie that i don't remember the name of about a black family that goes to live in a white neighborhood in the 70s, whoppie goldberg asks the question 'would the butcher have washed his hands first and then delivered me meat if i was white'. so, sir i beg to differ. the service remains, but the delivery differs, for a racist. why i choose the whore example was, letting someone enter you is one of the biggest services and if you are a racist, a person of another race entering your holiest of holies has the most potential for being unthinkable. And yes, they are sometimes a victim of circumstance too and hence are allowed to have principles [example, they get raped too].
jbrockz
09-21-2003, 12:13 AM
whew, that took some time to write
J'Pol
09-21-2003, 12:59 AM
Cretin.
jbrockz
09-21-2003, 01:14 AM
resolving to kindergarten name-calling , are we? well, you have the right to your own opinion.
i guess what i have written in the gay rights post about belief applies here too.
Billy_Dean
09-21-2003, 08:12 AM
Wow! I've just sat here and read pages of this crap!
JPaul, you are, without doubt, the cretin here.
You have nothing to say in contradiction, you then attack the person.
Then you come up with this ..
The people you are discussing these thing with are indulging your ill-informed opinions, in order to encourage you to think and form opinions for yourself
The PEOPLE here? You mean to say this personal shit is designed to help him? Bullshit! You argue for the sake of it, nothing wrong with that, except you have a very shallow pool of thought.
:)
J'Pol
09-21-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@21 September 2003 - 09:12
Wow! I've just sat here and read pages of this crap!
JPaul, you are, without doubt, the cretin here.
You have nothing to say in contradiction, you then attack the person.
Then you come up with this ..
The people you are discussing these thing with are indulging your ill-informed opinions, in order to encourage you to think and form opinions for yourself
The PEOPLE here? You mean to say this personal shit is designed to help him? Bullshit! You argue for the sake of it, nothing wrong with that, except you have a very shallow pool of thought.
:)
You don't actually read the posts do you. He was talking about the people he discusses these things with in real life. That was perfectly obvious. No-one mentioned the people in here. So if you work from that false premise then it is not surprising that you misunderstand the rest of the conversation.
This explains a lot, it has happened on several occasions now. You don't actually read what people write. There are of course some other possibilities. I suppose it is possible that you don't actually understand what is being said, or that you are just obtuse.
He was spouting forth with offensive sweeping generalisations and I replied to those. I made it perfectly clear why I was doing this, I found it to be personally insulting. Again if you don't actually read or understand what is being said then this would be lost on you.
I read it and understood it, and I agree with Billy_Dean.
J'Pol
09-21-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by lynx@21 September 2003 - 11:42
I read it and understood it, and I agree with Billy_Dean.
To each their own.
Biggles
09-21-2003, 12:59 PM
Hobbes
How long does this bio-rhythm thing last? :blink:
clocker
09-21-2003, 01:51 PM
jbrockz,
I think that it's odd that all of the examples you use to justify your statements come from movies.
AHallmark Hall of Fame tv movie with Whoopie Goldberg .
A movie based on the life of Bruce Lee...
Are any of your sweeping generalities based on contact with real, live human beings?
BTW, I would recommend you keep your daughters away from Pretty Woman with Julia Roberts...
Billy_Dean
09-21-2003, 02:31 PM
Hi Clocko, long time no see, wanna argue about something??
:)
clocker
09-21-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@21 September 2003 - 07:31
Hi Clocko, long time no see, wanna argue about something??
:)
Not quite yet, Billy.
I'm still on my first tankard of coffee...
jbrockz
09-21-2003, 04:37 PM
BTW, I would recommend you keep your daughters away from Pretty Woman with Julia Roberts...
:lol: , but still single
to clocker,
english is not my first language and i still have a lot to learn about the language....i am comfortable using it but not 'technically sound' in it. i try to use movies and quotes to help explain the point since my vocabulary is limited at this point, and i like watching movies. [i actually had to look up cretin, and there a lot of words Jpaul used that i didn't look up, fortunately :D ]...i don't base my life's philosophy on movies, i just use them to aid in my explanation.
generally speaking, as regards the views themselves, i am not saying only i m right. i just saying this is what i think or this is how i see it and i'd like your opinion. i guess the discussion in gay rights post went better than this one [at least i didnt have anyone calling me stupid]. i discussed my interpretation of a stephen hawking's quote and got great inputs from many about how they saw it. some understood, others criticised, yet others gave their own viewpoint. i guess it works better if you have someone replying, even attacking, your views rather than YOU.
as for jpaul, billy-dean summed it up best :) [i guess you can call this using a real-life example...hehe]
You have nothing to say in contradiction, you then attack the person.
Then you come up with this ..
QUOTE
The people you are discussing these thing with are indulging your ill-informed opinions, in order to encourage you to think and form opinions for yourself
/QUOTE
The PEOPLE here? You mean to say this personal shit is designed to help him? Bullshit! You argue for the sake of it, nothing wrong with that, except you have a very shallow pool of thought.
clocker
09-21-2003, 04:47 PM
jbrockz,
Your English seems pretty good to me. You are already one step ahead of me as I am not comfortable in any other language, so kudos to you.
I was simply commenting on your use of movies to explain "real life". When you make generalizations such as "prostitutes are less racist than socialites" (paraphrase) and then back it up with examples from films, I have to question the validity of your basic premise.
Were you to say " My socialite friend is a bitch and my prostitute girlfriend is not", then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
jbrockz
09-21-2003, 05:18 PM
Your English seems pretty good to me. You are already one step ahead of me as I am not comfortable in any other language, so kudos to you.
Thanks :)
Were you to say " My socialite friend is a bitch and my prostitute girlfriend is not", then we wouldn't be having this discussion
True. As i said, i m still in learning mode. with hindsight you are right, but i guess to come up with that statement i would require to have a certain level of ease with the language that only constant communication with it can give, something that i still require more of and am hoping my discussions here will provide, along with a broader range of view-points. I guess you can compare it with having a knowledge of the ins and outs of an engine but not having much hands-on experience. I do have people here with whom i communicate in english, but not for the major part of the day.
so, learning from your quote, i would rephrase it as - A socialite can be a racist bitch, whereas A prostitute [not my girlfriend, man :D ] may be a bitch, but not racist.
clocker
09-21-2003, 05:25 PM
jbrockz,
I would simply caution you against making sweeping generalizations.
...i repect the whore more than the socialite cause the whoe would be less racist than the socialite any day, just an example,
As an example...
jbrockz
09-21-2003, 05:32 PM
point taken :)
clocker
09-21-2003, 05:36 PM
Welcome aboard, btw.
jbrockz
09-21-2003, 05:38 PM
thanks :)
hobbes
09-21-2003, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Biggles@21 September 2003 - 13:59
Hobbes
How long does this bio-rhythm thing last? :blink:
Quite variable- modified by alcohol and coffee- looks like we are currently experiencing one douzy of a break in concentration.
hobbes
09-21-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by JPaul@21 September 2003 - 11:38
This explains a lot, it has happened on several occasions now. You don't actually read what people write. There are of course some other possibilities. I suppose it is possible that you don't actually understand what is being said, or that you are just obtuse.
I think this statement is something I can relate to, as well. I think Billy should take this to heart because I recurrently get this feeling.
Some people are more focused on their clever rebuttal and do not give a post its due attention.
Billy is certainly not alone in this regard, and I find it frustrating to carry on a discussion with someone who is clearly not contemplating each post. It means that the person is more focused on defending his position than listening to the others point of view.
Just how I feel.
thewizeard
09-21-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by clocker@21 September 2003 - 18:36
Welcome aboard, btw.
idem dito jbrockz! a welcome from the Netherlands,
a little off topic of course but then I ask, was it ever on topic...?
jbrockz
09-21-2003, 06:52 PM
Thanks, nigel123 :)
a little off topic of course but then I ask, was it ever on topic...?
we are full 28 pages away from the topic...lol ;)
bigboab
09-22-2003, 02:56 AM
To go back to he original. If there is a God, why Aberfan?
Billy_Dean
09-22-2003, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by hobbes+22 September 2003 - 03:22--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 22 September 2003 - 03:22)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@21 September 2003 - 11:38
This explains a lot, it has happened on several occasions now. You don't actually read what people write. There are of course some other possibilities. I suppose it is possible that you don't actually understand what is being said, or that you are just obtuse.
I think this statement is something I can relate to, as well. I think Billy should take this to heart because I recurrently get this feeling.
Some people are more focused on their clever rebuttal and do not give a post its due attention.
Billy is certainly not alone in this regard, and I find it frustrating to carry on a discussion with someone who is clearly not contemplating each post. It means that the person is more focused on defending his position than listening to the others point of view.
Just how I feel. [/b][/quote]
The kettle calling the pot black, and using a quote from a mudslinger to express his\her views, cute!
:)
Billy_Dean
09-22-2003, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by bigboab@22 September 2003 - 11:56
To go back to he original. If there is a God, why Aberfan?
There is no god, and Aberfan was a tragic accident. I laid flowers there in 1998.
:)
noname12
09-22-2003, 04:44 AM
There is a God, and my evidence... well lets see Famous philosopher (i have no idea what his name was, but i think he was french) said "I do not believe in God... But I do, for the thought of Death forces me to" how that is evidence? i have no idea.
Second piece of Evidence, a famous poet, again I have no idea what his name is but i think hes Arabic, "If I was to tell you this house appeared on its own, you would call me mad... yet you expect me to believe this entire universe just.... popped out of nowhere?", Is this evidence? I dont know.
Third piece of evidence, I just think the entire universe is a miracle of mathmatical perfection, and to believe it to all be a coincidence... eh too dodgey.
Billy_Dean
09-22-2003, 05:37 AM
Keep up the school work noname, lay off the pot, and French "philosophers", or you'll never learn.
:)
noname12
09-22-2003, 05:43 AM
well you come up with a better argument then :P
Billy_Dean
09-22-2003, 05:56 AM
I don't need an argument, show me proof, not someone elses words.
There is a God, and my evidence......"I do not believe in God... But I do, for the thought of Death forces me to"
Obviously he doesn't believe, or does he? If he does, why would he say he doesn't?
Second piece of Evidence ....."If I was to tell you this house appeared on its own, you would call me mad... yet you expect me to believe this entire universe just.... popped out of nowhere?", Is this evidence? I dont know.
No, it's not evidence, just some silly arab.
Third piece of evidence, I just think the entire universe is a miracle of mathmatical perfection, and to believe it to all be a coincidence... eh too dodgey.
That's evidence??
If there is a god, show me the evidence, don't just say this or that couldn't have happened naturally.
:)
noname12
09-22-2003, 06:05 AM
lol well prove to me there isnt a God... :P
noname12
09-22-2003, 06:14 AM
Lets start from the very beggining, the big bang... explain it to me? and explain the creation of life or "evolution", then from there we can have a nice meaningful debate.
jbrockz
09-22-2003, 06:19 AM
lol, billy
as for the first part, noname, ask the philosoper to make up his mind. if he says he has to believe in God since he fears death, then he clearly considers Him as the ultimate judge who will judge him at the end of his days, which disproves his claim that he believes there is no God. And if he believes there is no God, then death would just be an inevitale scientific process, exemplifying [spelling?] at best the imperfection inherent to life.
as for the second and third parts, you are clearly talking about the 'big bang theory'. well, its just that - a theory. scientists have conceded a long time ago that they might never know how the universe really came to be. instead the focus of physics has changed to the unification of the theories that explain the majestic and the minute. the big bang is largely accepted as the beginning of the universe since the very little evidence we have about our universe suggests that. for example, its expanding nature, the presence of black holes, the fact we literally have the ability to look back in time [when you see a star that is 4 light years away, you are looking at the star as it was 4 years ago...the farther away you can see, the more in the past you can go].
as part of your physics class ;) , i would recommend you to read 'the brief history of time', can't find a simpler book about a complex subject then this. there is some play on God in there too.
noname12
09-22-2003, 06:23 AM
lol the guy means that if there was not that whole death thing he would not believe in God, but to face death and to believe there is nothing but a void beyond forces him to believe there is a God, so then there is no void there is something beyond there is meaning to life, there is a purpose, there is justice and so on.
I just couldnt be bothered to type the whole damn thing out because i figured no one would notice it :lol:
So basically looking at it from a whole weird philosophical way He doesnt believe YET HE DOES... jees :P
As for the big bang yeah yeah, there was a giant planet that blew up, yeah well where did that "giant planet" come from? oh yeah star dust, where did the star dust come from? well duh stars where the hell did the stars come from? lol and so on, theres a beginin to everything and an end, to believe life and the universe started just because some huge planet decided to have a overly dramatic fart then excuse me for not believing...
In my views there's gotta be a greater being.
jbrockz
09-22-2003, 06:38 AM
you wrote
...there is a purpose, there is justice and so on
i had written
...then he clearly considers Him as the ultimate judge who will judge him at the end of his days...
i guess i was on track at least partially, since you couldn't be bothered to write the whole thing. :P
jbrockz
09-22-2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by noname12@22 September 2003 - 06:23
As for the big bang yeah yeah, there was a giant planet that blew up, yeah well where did that "giant planet" come from? oh yeah star dust, where did the star dust come from? well duh stars where the hell did the stars come from? lol and so on, theres a beginin to everything and an end, to believe life and the universe started just because some huge planet decided to have a overly dramatic fart then excuse me for not believing...
In my views there's gotta be a greater being.
:o dude, you really need to read 'the brief history of time'...you got the 'big bang' all wrong and i don't have the energy to explain it here.
noname12
09-22-2003, 06:43 AM
lol your right i do, i just go on what those freaks in shopping centres scream, and yes you find the big bang supporters out there, and a little from watching TV and thats what they all said.... and TV can never be wrong :D
Billy_Dean
09-22-2003, 06:51 AM
As for the big bang yeah yeah, there was a giant planet that blew up, yeah well where did that "giant planet" come from? oh yeah star dust, where did the star dust come from? well duh stars where the hell did the stars come from? lol and so on, theres a beginin to everything and an end, to believe life and the universe started just because some huge planet decided to have a overly dramatic fart then excuse me for not believing...
In my views there's gotta be a greater being.
Did you read this on the back of a cornflake packet?
:)
noname12
09-22-2003, 06:53 AM
/\
||
||
||
||
||
look up
lol i might as well have
eh i will look it up on the internet.
Billy_Dean
09-22-2003, 06:59 AM
@jbrockz
dude, you really need to read 'the brief history of time'...you got the 'big bang' all wrong and i don't have the energy to explain it here.
Dude, you really need to move on to "The Universe In A Nutshell"
JBRockz look here, no-one else! (http://www.popular-science.net/science/hawking.html)
:)
jbrockz
09-22-2003, 07:07 AM
thanks, billy. is it available on kazaa yet ;)
Billy_Dean
09-22-2003, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by jbrockz@22 September 2003 - 16:07
thanks, billy. is it available on kazaa yet ;)
I've no idea mate, never used K\L to find books.
Save up for the real thing, the illustrations are fantastic, a magic book, and easier to read than "Time".
:)
EDIT: If you don't want your signature to look like that, add [/color] to the end of each line.
thewizeard
09-22-2003, 07:11 AM
No one, except God itself, will ever be able to prove anthing to us humankind. We all know God doesn't pop round to visit us here very often.Untill God does visit us, then it's back to the cornflake packet for all of us, as Billy_Dean would put it....For the time being a little tolerance will be usefull. Now, what shall I have for breakfast.
noname12
09-22-2003, 07:13 AM
eat Fruit loops, and here here three cheers for nigel123.
and Billy_Dean remind me to send a complaint letter to the discovery channel, they taught me wrong :lol:
Billy_Dean
09-22-2003, 07:16 AM
I hate to nit-pick here Nigel, but shouldn't there be a question mark at the end of your post??
(My god, I'm sounding like JPaul, or was it Hobbes, or maybe ......)
:)
Billy_Dean
09-22-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by noname12@22 September 2003 - 16:13
eat Fruit loops, and here here three cheers for nigel123.
and Billy_Dean remind me to send a complaint letter to the discovery channel, they taught me wrong :lol:
Haha, maybe they taught you about black holes and you didn't listen properly, got stars and planets mixed up, and thought they were talking about the big bang. An easy mistake to make. ;)
:)
noname12
09-22-2003, 07:22 AM
Well its possible, with that boring voice explaining things i could have fallen asleep half way through the Big Bang theory and wolk up near the end of Stars, Black holes and Billy_Dean The theory.
jbrockz
09-22-2003, 07:22 AM
...never used K\L to find books
same here, except novels....and, ahem, e--tica.
Billy_Dean
09-22-2003, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by noname12@22 September 2003 - 16:22
Well its possible, with that boring voice explaining things i could have fallen asleep half way through the Big Bang theory and wolk up near the end of Stars, Black holes and Billy_Dean The theory.
Haha! I like it, *The Billy Dean Theory* I'm sure that will bring a response from you-know-whos ...!
:)
J'Pol
09-22-2003, 08:14 AM
Astonishing, all this talk of the works of Prof Hawking. You are of course aware that he is on record stating that he does in fact believe in God. No question mark there btw, it has been noted by others that I rarely use them. Wouldn't want to let a bit of peurile mud-slinging pass now would I.
Billy_Dean
09-22-2003, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by JPaul@22 September 2003 - 17:14
Astonishing, all this talk of the works of Prof Hawking. You are of course aware that he is on record stating that he does in fact believe in God. No question mark there btw, it has been noted by others that I rarely use them. Wouldn't want to let a bit of peurile mud-slinging pass now would I.
You are aware, of course, that Hawking has since refuted that claim.
I refer you to Carl Sagan's words in the introduction to A Brief History of Time ...
"This is also a book about God...or perhaps about the absence of God. The word God fills these pages. Hawking embarks on a quest to answer Einstein's famous question about whether God had any choice in creating the universe. Hawking is attempting, as he explicitly states, to understand the mind of God. And this makes all the more unexpected the conclusion of the effort, at least so far: a universe with no edge in space, no beginning or end of time, and nothing for a creator to do."
:)
J'Pol
09-22-2003, 12:41 PM
I wasn't aware that he had refuted the belief. Thanks for the point out. I am obviously not up to speed.
Do you have a source for this, I would genuinely be interested to read his thoughts on the matter.
Biggles
09-22-2003, 03:10 PM
A number of leading physicists subscribe to the possibility of an intelligent design. However, it is debatable as to whether this concept translates easily into what adherents of specific religions would consider a deity.
I think something akin to Blake's "architect" or "draughtsman" would be a more apposite comparison. As I said above, there is one gigantic leap from a mathematical coherence in the perceived universe to strange dictats concerning dietry laws or bulldozing your house if it has mildew.
I think, actually, the moment religion is deductable through equation it probably ceases to be religion.
Although I am no adherent to any specific religion (notwithstanding a totally irrational soft spot for old Celtic myths) I have no objection to others getting the utmost from their own particular faiths. It just ceases to be fun when it is used as a basis to discriminate against others who have different beliefs.
:rolleyes: As an aside, theoretical physics is not a happy hunting ground. Long division stumps many, so putting trust in a blackboard covered in pure algebra that proves there are in fact 14 dimensions and not 13 as previously supposed is just as much a leap of faith for the average man as believing there are gods living on Mount Olympus. Sincere and genuine apologies to any average men (or women ) out there that love long algebraic equations.
jbrockz
09-22-2003, 06:45 PM
A number of leading physicists subscribe to the possibility of an intelligent design. However, it is debatable as to whether this concept translates easily into what adherents of specific religions would consider a deity.
I think something akin to Blake's "architect" or "draughtsman" would be a more apposite comparison. As I said above, there is one gigantic leap from a mathematical coherence in the perceived universe to strange dictats concerning dietry laws or bulldozing your house if it has mildew.
I think, actually, the moment religion is deductable through equation it probably ceases to be religion.
Although I am no adherent to any specific religion (notwithstanding a totally irrational soft spot for old Celtic myths) I have no objection to others getting the utmost from their own particular faiths. It just ceases to be fun when it is used as a basis to discriminate against others who have different beliefs
Amen , brother!
Since English is not my first language, if i had set out to explain this, i can't imagine what i would have done with it....the nitpickers would have had a field-day...lol. Perfect choice of words!!
As an aside, theoretical physics is not a happy hunting ground. Long division stumps many, so putting trust in a blackboard covered in pure algebra that proves there are in fact 14 dimensions and not 13 as previously supposed is just as much a leap of faith for the average man as believing there are gods living on Mount Olympus. Sincere and genuine apologies to any average men (or women ) out there that love long algebraic equations.
Amen again. Taking theoretical physics as an example, I think the world can suddenly become a whole lot tolerant if only we would appreciate the amount of things about this universe [religious and physical] that we don't know. Forget about dimensions, even planets haven't been happy hunting grounds. Read this
http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/ni...anets/hypo.html (http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/hypo.html)
Imperfection [and i use this term loosely] is the essence of life. In the discovery cahnnel series Human Body, the host [?] explains that the biggest hurdle to eternal life is the way the body regenerates itself. Every part from bone matter to skin regenerates, just not as obviously as a snake's skin. And everytime it does, it gets replaced by something that is a little less perfect, a little more away from ideal. If the body could replace every cell or tissue by an exact replica, we would never grow old.
Same way, thinking of one's religion to be the all and only truth, one's concept of God as the only real one and calling everyone else 'stupid' or evil is, at least to me, living in denial of this inherent imperfection.
This imperfection is important and very necessary. Why? A quote from six feet under [season one finale i think] comes to mind,
''why do people have to die?''
''to make life intresting.''
Imagine what fun it would be if everyone living on this planet was, say, catholic - no protestants, no hindus, no jews, no buddhists, no tribals. The biggest problem with people is expecting eveyone to be like them, and then justifying horrible deeds saying we are the only real people and they are not. Religion is a load of horseshit, God is a different issue altogether!
If you had to join a religion which one would you choose?
J'Pol
09-22-2003, 07:21 PM
jbrockz
You use of the English language, particularly as a second language does you great credit. I know plenty of people who speak it as a first language who would not use the phrase inherent imperfection and certainly not in context.
That whole last post is very well put together. I may not always agree with the ideas you put across (particularly when you generalise) however I am really impressed by your ability to put them across. I would find it difficult to ask for some cheese and a glass of red wine in French for example.
Congrats to you and those who teach you, if you are teaching yourself even more impressive.
Do you mind me asking what your first language is.
hobbes
09-22-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@22 September 2003 - 08:16
I hate to nit-pick here Nigel, but shouldn't there be a question mark at the end of your post??
(My god, I'm sounding like JPaul, or was it Hobbes, or maybe ......)
:)
Billy,
I'm getting a little bit embarrassed at all this effusive praise today. I wake up this a.m. to find a thread with my name on it. You tout that you have a quote "from the man himself". Who's the man, yea, I'm the man. I'm the man, himself! El numero uno, honcho!
Then again here. We all know that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Next thing you know you will be walking upright, demonstating humility and someday, hopefully, reading the posts. You're just growing up so fast! /me pinches Billys cheek.
As for this God thing, looks like we are on the 3rd time around the block with this subject.
Billy_Dean
09-23-2003, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by hobbes+23 September 2003 - 04:22--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 23 September 2003 - 04:22)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Billy_Dean@22 September 2003 - 08:16
I hate to nit-pick here Nigel, but shouldn't there be a question mark at the end of your post??
(My god, I'm sounding like JPaul, or was it Hobbes, or maybe ......)
:)
Billy,
I'm getting a little bit embarrassed at all this effusive praise today. I wake up this a.m. to find a thread with my name on it. You tout that you have a quote "from the man himself". Who's the man, yea, I'm the man. I'm the man, himself! El numero uno, honcho!
Then again here. We all know that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Next thing you know you will be walking upright, demonstating humility and someday, hopefully, reading the posts. You're just growing up so fast! /me pinches Billys cheek.
As for this God thing, looks like we are on the 3rd time around the block with this subject. [/b][/quote]
I'm just trying to make you famous like me Hobbesy, so you can get over this jealousy thing.
:)
internet.news
09-23-2003, 06:33 PM
ok, I did not know if there is any god there...
but what I think is, I could think of some kind of energy after
dying... probably some dead people, we cannot see these small amount of energy,
are sometimes close to us? If I would be dead and a kind of energy I would
still respect privacy... will try it ... really...
I explain people suffering and violence in world as so: human life also has
unfortunately negative parts. It is only sad to see people suffering...
e.g. each day in Israel - Palestinia... :(
thanks anyway, david.
Calvarian2003
10-02-2003, 09:25 AM
The atheist physicist joke:
'In the beginning there was nothing, which then exploded.'
Well then, that sure answers all the questions I have about the creation of the universe!
Billy_Dean
10-02-2003, 09:43 AM
Calvarian.
The atheist physicist joke:
'In the beginning there was nothing, which then exploded.'
Well then, that sure answers all the questions I have about the creation of the universe!
Perhaps you have a believable explanation of where your god came from? Or has he always been there? Forever? Hundreds of thousands of millions of billions of years? Boy, it took him a long time to get bored enough to create the universe then! And even longer to make us!
:)
J'Pol
10-02-2003, 07:48 PM
No you were right, God has always been there and always will be.
Compared to infinite one hundred million billion really isn't that big. In fact in relative terms, there's no difference between it and 1. Didn't take him any time at all to make the universe(s) time is meaningless to God.
Can't explain the infinite in terms of people's understanding of the way the universe works. Just isn't possible.
Lamsey
10-02-2003, 07:51 PM
I would like to affirm my belief that the universe is run by aliens from Mars with big elbows and pineapples for heads.
It's founded on exactly as much evidence as there is for any kind of religion, so why not? Go ahead and prove me wrong!
J'Pol
10-02-2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Lamsey@2 October 2003 - 20:51
I would like to affirm my belief that the universe is run by aliens from Mars with big elbows and pineapples for heads.
It's founded on exactly as much evidence as there is for any kind of religion, so why not? Go ahead and prove me wrong!
No thanks, you are just mocking people.
My beliefs are based on more than you just posting nonsense in a childish attempt to offend people like me.
Lamsey
10-02-2003, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by JPaul+2 October 2003 - 19:56--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 2 October 2003 - 19:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lamsey@2 October 2003 - 20:51
I would like to affirm my belief that the universe is run by aliens from Mars with big elbows and pineapples for heads.
It's founded on exactly as much evidence as there is for any kind of religion, so why not? Go ahead and prove me wrong!
No thanks, you are just mocking people.
My beliefs are based on more than you just posting nonsense in a childish attempt to offend people like me. [/b][/quote]
You malappropriate me most severely, JPaul.
I was trying to put across a serious point, albeit in a jocular sense.
There is no significant difference between my statement and the statement that someone believes in an all-powerful being, if you look at the evidence supporting either side.
I just find it strange that one (rightly) appears ridiculous and the other does not.
J'Pol
10-02-2003, 08:06 PM
There is every difference in the world. I happen to believe one of them and it forms an integral part of my life.
Unless I very much miss the mark, you do not actually believe what you posted. So you are comparing what I fundamentally believe to something you yourself think ridiculous.
That is entirely different to saying that you are an agnostic and find no evidence for my belief.
bigboab
10-02-2003, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Lamsey+2 October 2003 - 19:59--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lamsey @ 2 October 2003 - 19:59)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by JPaul@2 October 2003 - 19:56
<!--QuoteBegin-Lamsey@2 October 2003 - 20:51
I would like to affirm my belief that the universe is run by aliens from Mars with big elbows and pineapples for heads.
It's founded on exactly as much evidence as there is for any kind of religion, so why not? Go ahead and prove me wrong!
No thanks, you are just mocking people.
My beliefs are based on more than you just posting nonsense in a childish attempt to offend people like me.
You malappropriate me most severely, JPaul.
I was trying to put across a serious point, albeit in a jocular sense.
There is no significant difference between my statement and the statement that someone believes in an all-powerful being, if you look at the evidence supporting either side.
I just find it strange that one (rightly) appears ridiculous and the other does not. [/b][/quote]
[QUOTE]
Although I tend to agree with some of what you say Lamsey. There is no proof that pineapples are growing anywhere else other than our universe.
But on a more serious note how anyone religious can justify the likes of Aberfan, Dunblane etc. where hundreds of innocent children are killed belies belief.
Lamsey
10-02-2003, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by JPaul@2 October 2003 - 20:06
There is every difference in the world. I happen to believe one of them and it forms an integral part of my life.
Unless I very much miss the mark, you do not actually believe what you posted. So you are comparing what I fundamentally believe to something you yourself think ridiculous.
That is entirely different to saying that you are an agnostic and find no evidence for my belief.
You can take apart the individual words if you like, mate, but the meaning that you are taking is certainly not the one I intended to put across.
Would it perhaps help if I use tags?
It was not my intention to offend; as you should know, it is not my style.
What I would like is for you, as a fundemental believer in your Faith, to explain to me what I am missing when I say that I see no difference. I apologise if that is not the way it came across.
J'Pol
10-02-2003, 08:13 PM
Why would I have to justify these things boab.
The one was the stupidity of man by building a school under a coal tip, the other was a man who lost his mind and used killing machines designed by other men, to kill.
Did you miss the point about God giving us free will. I am confused as to what your point is.
J'Pol
10-02-2003, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Lamsey@2 October 2003 - 21:12
It was not my intention to offend; as you should know, it is not my style.
What I would like is for you, as a fundemental believer in your Faith, to explain to me what I am missing when I say that I see no difference. I apologise if that is not the way it came across.
I very much know it is not your style.
My point is that rather than stating that you fundamentally disagreed with my belief, you compared it to something which was ridiculous. The inference being that my belief was ridiculous. That is entirely different from disagreeing with me.
To use an untrue example. I could say, I have no interest in archery, it really isn't my cup of tea. However if I were to say all people who are interested in it are ..... I will not finish this as some people will take anything I say the wrong way (I know you are not one of them).
The former I think is acceptable, the latter could be mocking and offensive.
bigboab
10-02-2003, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by JPaul@2 October 2003 - 20:13
Why would I have to justify these things boab.
The one was the stupidity of man by building a school under a coal tip, the other was a man who lost his mind and used killing machines designed by other men, to kill.
Did you miss the point about God giving us free will. I am confused as to what your point is.
[QUOTE]
What I am suggesting JP is that if there was such a thing as an omniscient being then it could ensure that this type of thing only happens to those that deserve it.
After both of these events that I quoted there were people saying that 'It is the will of god' and that it was a punishment for mans indiscretions.
J'Pol
10-02-2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by bigboab+2 October 2003 - 21:22--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bigboab @ 2 October 2003 - 21:22)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@2 October 2003 - 20:13
Why would I have to justify these things boab.
The one was the stupidity of man by building a school under a coal tip, the other was a man who lost his mind and used killing machines designed by other men, to kill.
Did you miss the point about God giving us free will. I am confused as to what your point is.
What I am suggesting JP is that if there was such a thing as an omniscient being then it could ensure that this type of thing only happens to those that deserve it.
After both of these events that I quoted there were people saying that 'It is the will of god' and that it was a punishment for mans indiscretions. [/b]
He would have to be omnipotent as well, but I take your point.
I am not someone who believes that these tragedies are the will of God, so you may be better asking someone who is. I believe the exact opposite.
I believe that these things are very much not the will of God and that God does not want them to happen. However as he has given us free will, we keep on building the Guns and the bombs and the Schools at the bottom of coal tips.
Unless we have free will I believe the whole thing is pointless, we are all actors in a play and our scripts are pre-determined. I don't believe that. Unfortunately the free will that allows us to do good things also allows us to do bad things.
bigboab
10-02-2003, 08:32 PM
Well could he/she not let us read the script before scenes like these?
J'Pol
10-02-2003, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by bigboab@2 October 2003 - 21:32
Well could he/she not let us read the script before scenes like these?
Sorry mate - it's an ad-lib sort of gig.
bigboab
10-02-2003, 08:37 PM
Sound more Lab/Lib if we dont get a choice. :P
Lamsey
10-02-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by JPaul@2 October 2003 - 20:19
I very much know it is not your style.
My point is that rather than stating that you fundamentally disagreed with my belief, you compared it to something which was ridiculous. The inference being that my belief was ridiculous. That is entirely different from disagreeing with me.
To use an untrue example. I could say, I have no interest in archery, it really isn't my cup of tea. However if I were to say all people who are interested in it are ..... I will not finish this as some people will take anything I say the wrong way (I know you are not one of them).
The former I think is acceptable, the latter could be mocking and offensive.
OK, I see your point; the way I phrased my point may be taken as offensive.
I apologise for that.
Now could you answer my intended point?
J'Pol
10-02-2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by bigboab@2 October 2003 - 21:37
Sound more Lab/Lib if we dont get a choice. :P
Can't be, the whole thing is about choice.
Life is a series of choices, you can choose to do whatever you want, as long as you accept the consequences.
Can't be bothered going to work, it's up to you, just live with the fact you will get fired. However ultimately it is your choice. You can do anything you want, but you have to live with the results.
bigboab
10-02-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by JPaul+2 October 2003 - 20:40--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 2 October 2003 - 20:40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-bigboab@2 October 2003 - 21:37
Sound more Lab/Lib if we dont get a choice. :P
Can't be, the whole thing is about choice.
Life is a series of choices, you can choose to do whatever you want, as long as you accept the consequences.
Can't be bothered going to work, it's up to you, just live with the fact you will get fired. However ultimately it is your choice. You can do anything you want, but you have to live with the results. [/b][/quote]
[QUOTE]
Maybe 50+ years ago JP. Now if you dont like the consequences, you sue.
Billy_Dean
11-17-2003, 10:06 AM
*Bump* for Chalice.
:)
chalice
11-17-2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@17 November 2003 - 10:06
*Bump* for Chalice.
:)
I thought I was out and they pull me back in.
Afronaut
11-22-2003, 01:58 PM
Interesting reading. Thank you all for posting.
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and seeks to pursue us into eternity."
-Thomas Paine
I could still read another 30 pages but it seems this matter is done?
Cheers:
-GS-
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