What do you...

[j2k4]

...understand the Islamic definition of and attitude toward the "infidel" to be?

[bigboab]

It is just the same as the original meaning, only they have substituted Christianity with Islam. A bit like sredasurc.:wacko:

[j2k4]

It is just the same as the original meaning, only they have substituted Christianity with Islam. A bit like sredasurc.:wacko:

Okay.

Let's skip to question #3-

When the fuck will they get over it, like we did? :whistling

[bigboab]

I have not checked but at a guess it will be about 300 years.:lol:

[bigboab]

I have changed my mind. Try 703 years.:whistling
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nigel.nicholson/hn/CrusadeFAQs/f-time.html

[j2k4]

I have changed my mind. Try 703 years.:whistling
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nigel.nicholson/hn/CrusadeFAQs/f-time.html

Do you propose to wait them out, or.

[tralalala]

Just proves how "middle-aged" Islam is.

[j2k4]

Just proves how "middle-aged" Islam is.

Old-aged, more like it; it's about 1300 years-old now, and Islam has been a bit pissy since day one.

Someone inform them their time is well-up. :whistling

Anyhoo, how do you think Islam proper influences your average export-version Muslim, the type we host in Europe and the Americas?

[tralalala]

Depends if you're talking about the radicals or the few who are actually legitimate good people.. If radicals - Then generally speaking, they'll be trying to take of Europe within the next decade or two (especially at the rate they multiply), and there's nothing much that can be done about it (unless, for instance, the BNP are voted into parliament in the UK....). So basically, we're all screwed.

:)

[j2k4]

Depends if you're talking about the radicals or the few who are actually legitimate good people.. If radicals - Then generally speaking, they'll be trying to take of Europe within the next decade or two (especially at the rate they multiply), and there's nothing much that can be done about it (unless, for instance, the BNP are voted into parliament in the UK....). So basically, we're all screwed.

:)

Yoiks.

I wonder how, then, one Muslim interprets one way, and the next one interprets the other way?

The radical side would appear to intimidate the mellower brand of Muslim into silence, yes?

There appears to be a more-or-less constant ratio of each throughout their propagation, and a similar dynamic everywhere there are substantial numbers.

[tralalala]

I wouldn't be surprised if the radical chunk was the smaller chunk, but the fact they are radical makes them more bold, hence seeming to silence the mellow Muslims.

I still think that because the radicals use barbaric ways to take control of lands and/or countries, they find it easier to withhold these strongholds.. All in all.. It's a serious problem, I don't know what the best method of action would be...

[j2k4]

I wouldn't be surprised if the radical chunk was the smaller chunk, but the fact they are radical makes them more bold, hence seeming to silence the mellow Muslims.

I still think that because the radicals use barbaric ways to take control of lands and/or countries, they find it easier to withhold these strongholds.. All in all.. It's a serious problem, I don't know what the best method of action would be...

Yes, the radical tendency toward aggression swells their effect, rather than their numbers.

It's not so tough an out as that, though, Rafi-

If more of the people who've a reason to distrust Islam demonstrate their objection in ways that strike directly at the terrorist bent, we would soon be rid of it.

Easier said than done, certainly, but there you have it.

[tralalala]

Obviousment.

Problem is, in today's modernised world, I'm not quite sure people who dislike radical Islam would go out and demonstrate, and risk getting into battle with said radicals, simply because this generation is not one that would go into war unless an army is sent to do the deed..

It's a serious problem, and I'm not positive that getting millions of civilians to say their word is the simplest thing to execute.

[j2k4]

Problem is, in today's modernised world, I'm not quite sure people who dislike radical Islam would go out and demonstrate, and risk getting into battle with said radicals, simply because this generation is not one that would go into war unless an army is sent to do the deed..

It's a serious problem, and I'm not positive that getting millions of civilians to say their word is the simplest thing to execute.

Absolutely, and that is the trick.

I meant that identifying the problem and it's solution is the easy part.

Hard for us to imagine, however, that the life-or-death aspect can be bought off by the promise of virgins in the afterlife.

BTW-

I have heard that souls in the afterlife are in direct proportion to their former earthly counterparts - given this understanding, I wonder if any prospective martyr might be curious about where all these "virgins" come from.

Maybe they're refurbs. :huh:

[bigboab]

Problem is, in today's modernised world, I'm not quite sure people who dislike radical Islam would go out and demonstrate, and risk getting into battle with said radicals, simply because this generation is not one that would go into war unless an army is sent to do the deed..

It's a serious problem, and I'm not positive that getting millions of civilians to say their word is the simplest thing to execute.

Absolutely, and that is the trick.

I meant that identifying the problem and it's solution is the easy part.

Hard for us to imagine, however, that the life-or-death aspect can be bought off by the promise of virgins in the afterlife.

BTW-

I have heard that souls in the afterlife are in direct proportion to their former earthly counterparts - given this understanding, I wonder if any prospective martyr might be curious about where all these "virgins" come from.

Maybe they're refurbs. :huh:

Virgins would not be much use to them if they have been blown to pieces. Unless souls literally assemble in heaven.:whistling

[tralalala]

I don't think it's the idea of virgins that directs each and every suicide bomber..

Brainwashing can be an extremely powerful tool, no matter what you teach kids.. They will believe your every word if you tell them it thoroughly enough.. It's like teaching kids religion, or manners.. They'll take it and probably never change. That's the main prospect, is stopping the brainwashing - And with every generation that comes, there's an even bigger generation of kids to be brainwashed into worldwide Jihad...

[j2k4]

Absolutely, and that is the trick.

I meant that identifying the problem and it's solution is the easy part.

Hard for us to imagine, however, that the life-or-death aspect can be bought off by the promise of virgins in the afterlife.

BTW-

I have heard that souls in the afterlife are in direct proportion to their former earthly counterparts - given this understanding, I wonder if any prospective martyr might be curious about where all these "virgins" come from.

Maybe they're refurbs. :huh:

Virgins would not be much use to them if they have been blown to pieces. Unless souls literally assemble in heaven.:whistling

True, but the very idea seventy-odd virgins are available and intact for each martyr begs some pretty funky math, wouldn't you say.

Where do you suppose they come from. :whistling


I don't think it's the idea of virgins that directs each and every suicide bomber..

Brainwashing can be an extremely powerful tool, no matter what you teach kids.. They will believe your every word if you tell them it thoroughly enough.. It's like teaching kids religion, or manners.. They'll take it and probably never change. That's the main prospect, is stopping the brainwashing - And with every generation that comes, there's an even bigger generation of kids to be brainwashed into worldwide Jihad...

I recently read Nonie Darwish's book, Now They Call Me Infidel, wherein is made the case for the virgins.

She says, basically, that the bait for the behaviors we (and Muslim women) find so, uh....distressing, are entirely rooted in sex and it's myriad effects on the Islamic version of, oh...lets call it...honor. :whistling

[bigboab]

True, but the very idea seventy-odd virgins are available and intact for each martyr begs some pretty funky math, wouldn't you say.



At first glance I thought that read seventy year old. I was shaved, best after shave on and heading for the old folks cabin.:lol:

[j2k4]

True, but the very idea seventy-odd virgins are available and intact for each martyr begs some pretty funky math, wouldn't you say.



At first glance I thought that read seventy year old. I was shaved, best after shave on and heading for the old folks cabin.:lol:



Oh, yes, the cabins are quite grand, I hear. :whistling

[ilw]

MI5 has concluded that there is no easy way to identify those who become involved in terrorism in Britain, according to a classified internal research document on radicalisation seen by the Guardian.

It concludes that it is not possible to draw up a typical profile of the "British terrorist" as most are "demographically unremarkable" and simply reflect the communities in which they live.

The "restricted" MI5 report takes apart many of the common stereotypes about those involved in British terrorism ...

The security service also plays down the importance of radical extremist clerics, saying their influence in radicalising British terrorists has moved into the background in recent years.

The main findings include:

• The majority are British nationals and the remainder, with a few exceptions, are here legally. Around half were born in the UK, with others migrating here later in life. Some of these fled traumatic experiences and oppressive regimes and claimed UK asylum, but more came to Britain to study or for family or economic reasons and became radicalised many years after arriving.

• Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.

• The "mad and bad" theory to explain why people turn to terrorism does not stand up, with no more evidence of mental illness or pathological personality traits found among British terrorists than is found in the general population.

• British-based terrorists are as ethnically diverse as the UK Muslim population, with individuals from Pakistani, Middle Eastern and Caucasian backgrounds. MI5 says assumptions cannot be made about suspects based on skin colour, ethnic heritage or nationality.

• Most UK terrorists are male, but women also play an important role. Sometimes they are aware of their husbands', brothers' or sons' activities, but do not object or try to stop them.

• While the majority are in their early to mid-20s when they become radicalised, a small but not insignificant minority first become involved in violent extremism at over the age of 30.

• Far from being lone individuals with no ties, the majority of those over 30 have steady relationships, and most have children. MI5 says this challenges the idea that terrorists are young men driven by sexual frustration and lured to "martyrdom" by the promise of beautiful virgins waiting for them in paradise. It is wrong to assume that someone with a wife and children is less likely to commit acts of terrorism.

• Those involved in British terrorism are not unintelligent or gullible, and nor are they more likely to be well-educated; their educational achievement ranges from total lack of qualifications to degree-level education. However, they are almost all employed in low-grade jobs.

The researchers conclude that the results of their work "challenge many of the stereotypes that are held about who becomes a terrorist and why".

The security service believes the terrorist groups operating in Britain today are different in many important respects both from Islamist extremist activity in other parts of the world and from historical terrorist movements such as the IRA or the Red Army Faction.

The MI5 authors stress that the most pressing current threat is from Islamist extremist groups who justify the use of violence "in defence of Islam", but that there are also violent extremists involved in non-Islamist movements.

They say that they are concerned with those who use violence or actively support the use of violence and not those who simply hold politically extreme views.

situation may be different in your countries, but then again maybe not...

[j2k4]

It sounds as well like there are many "terrorists", with a variety of skin colors and ethnicities, who, while characterized as terrorists, are not active in the field, so to speak.

Or something.

One wonders how all these nascent terrorists were discovered.

Or revealed.

Or sensed, deduced, or what-have-you.

Sounds a bit of a math exercise, completed in the lab.

Isn't the Guardian regarded as a bit gamey, Ian.

[ilw]

sorry i cut out about 1/3rd of the article as it was quite long. The longer version would have made it clear(er) that the article summarises a classified report created by MI5 based on case studies of several hundred people known to be or have been active either in conducting/attempting/supporting terrorist activity in the UK over the last 5-10 years.

[j2k4]

sorry i cut out about 1/3rd of the article as it was quite long. The longer version would have made it clear(er) that the article summarises a classified report created by MI5 based on case studies of several hundred people known to be or have been active either in conducting/attempting/supporting terrorist activity in the UK over the last 5-10 years.


Then your stock in the report is based on the case studies of several hundred "terrorists", this lot of studies absolutely cross-sectional and accomodating all those who commit(ted) acts fitting the the general definition of "terrorism", and spanning 5-10 years.

What if I asked you to study this same subject, only limiting or narrowing your cohort demographic to immigrants (illegal or otherwise) who are of mideastern or south Asian origin and/or Islamic?

Do you see what I mean, and don't you dare cry racism or profiling. :whistling

[ilw]

can understand why for the purposes of this thread you'd want to just focus on Islamic, but why would you limit yourself to immigrants of mideastern / S.Asian origin?

That would exclude for example all of the 7/7 bombers and all of the terrorists* responsible for the attack at Glasgow airport (i.e. basically most of the terrorists who've actually done something in the last 5 years)


If you did just limit it to Islamic, then i think the conclusions of the report wouldn't have been significantly different, judging from the wording in the article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1) it very much sounds like the MI5 report is focused on Islamic extremism, which would make sense as AFAIK its the major terrorist threat to the nation.



(*assuming India doesn't count as S. Asian, if it does then one of the terrorists falls into your category)

[j2k4]

can understand why for the purposes of this thread you'd want to just focus on Islamic, but why would you limit yourself to immigrants of mideastern / S.Asian origin?

That would exclude for example all of the 7/7 bombers and all of the terrorists* responsible for the attack at Glasgow airport (i.e. basically most of the terrorists who've actually done something in the last 5 years)


If you did just limit it to Islamic, then i think the conclusions of the report wouldn't have been significantly different, judging from the wording in the article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1) it very much sounds like the MI5 report is focused on Islamic extremism, which would make sense as AFAIK its the major terrorist threat to the nation.



(*assuming India doesn't count as S. Asian, if it does then one of the terrorists falls into your category)

Well, I think I was focusing on the Islamic angle.