should tracker staff get paid?

[Polarbear]

as most of you probably know, most tracker staff spend a lot of their free time with hard work for their sites.

should a part of the donations be used to pay them?

[yayyyyyy]

and what about uploaders keeping the site alive?

and people being active on IRC and forums keeping the community alive?

should we all get paid? don't think so otherwise it would be ever simpler to sue a tracker :(

[aysomc]

all donations should first go to server cost and keeping the site running. if there is anything left over after a month then maybe but it would probably be smarter to keep that leftover money in case the next month doesnt go quite as well. bottom line is if you cant pay to keep the site running then there wont be any staff.

[ryan20021982]

And whatever the pay would be it wouldnt be worth have a paper trail
from the tracker to you incase something would happen.

[tX]

If there really is excess money, staff can get money.
I'm not talking about mods, I'm talking about SysOps and especially Coders
Running a large tracker can take a tons of times, almost as much or possibly more than a full time job
I wouldn't mind letting the two aforementioned groups get some of my donations
Of course they shouldn't get tons, this isn't a "get rich quick" scheme or a real job, and running a torrent site shouldn't be about profit, but just a small amount of money to award them for their hard work

[guitarhero]

Why not? Staff generally works hard..so it would be nice some cash for their time..

[dr jones]

all donations should first go to server cost and keeping the site running. if there is anything left over after a month then maybe but it would probably be smarter to keep that leftover money in case the next month doesnt go quite as well. bottom line is if you cant pay to keep the site running then there wont be any staff.

my exact thought :)

[danio]

People running trackers should do it because they want to, not because they want to make money from it. Sure, the staff spends a lot of their free time on it, but if they don't enjoy it, they should step down imo. Their wish to help the development of the site should come from a genuine interest rather than seeing it as a job with a paycheck.

Like yayyyyyy said, uploaders, fls and some regular users also spends alot of their time and/or money trying to contribute.

[Squizzle]

Impossible to say where the line is on this one, that's the problem.

At what point do they stop taking a little pocket money for their efforts and start profiting from piracy?

Probably best that we all just keep doing it for the passion eh.

[_coder_]

all donations should first go to server cost and keeping the site running. if there is anything left over after a month then maybe but it would probably be smarter to keep that leftover money in case the next month doesnt go quite as well. bottom line is if you cant pay to keep the site running then there wont be any staff.

Unlike trackers like FTN where they get double the amount of donations EVERY month. The amount of donations FTN gets is fuking crazy and this is not just once of twice it happens nearly every single month.

Brandon you cunt. :O

[kukushka]

hahaha, nice post to Brandon )))

anyway, it is very simple ) should or not should - who cares.. there is natural balance.. everybody is doing what they can and getting what they want.. if staff is okay to work and being satisfied without any money - so no problem.. if not - okay, pay them money until your tracker goes bankrupt.. can't see no philosophy here, it's just a kind of business, and you have to find a balance for the business to stay alive.. not only money, of course...

[KFlint]

anyway, what kind of remuneration are we talking about, maybe 20$ each a month maximum? unless a site manage to get a couple 1000$ each month with pay2leech. But this isn't exactly a model we like to see

Considering the legal troubles it could bring, don't think it's worth it at all

but paying fst staff is a must, still waiting for my paycheck :whistling

[danio]

anyway, what kind of remuneration are we talking about, maybe 20$ each a month maximum? unless a site manage to get a couple 1000$ each month with pay2leech. But this isn't exactly a model we like to see

Considering the legal troubles it could bring, don't think it's worth it at all

but paying fst staff is a must, still waiting for my paycheck :whistling

:lol::lol:

[stoi]

In all honesty, i feel really guilty that i cant pay my staff, and not even $20 a week, thats not to say that if they are ever in the shit i wont help them out if i can.

1: a couple of years ago one of my coders got made unemployed, 6 months later he owed his ISP 6 months connection, they just did not get in touch with him for those 6 months, well as you can guess, they did give him a phone call and said pay it or else. Well he is one of my coders ffs, if he does not have the internet, most of the work on the site does not get done, so i helped him out.

2: Another staffer, his grandma died 2000 miles away and he could not afford the plane fare to go to her funeral, he also had to go to the dentist and that was going to cost him a fortune, so i helped him out a little, I didnt give either of these 1000`s but i did help them out a little, then when all the shit blew up last year, this one turned it against me, saying he should not have accepted it, it was wrong for him to accept it and made me out to be a right git.

well i did just do it to help him out, i didnt want anything out of it, so since then i have not helped anyone out, mind you i cant bloody afford to.

you would think that with 50,000 members i would be rolling in the cash, and the media would probably say i was if i ever got caught because they are bastards like that, but i dont. about 0.5% of my memberbase donate, which equates to 250 members, now you may think 250*5 = 1250 very nice, but most of those just donate 1pence or 10pence or £1.

but as long as i can pay for the servers every month im happy.

[Eargasm]

I'm a member of several trackers and I try to donate to the ones that I think need the money. I know of a couple where the founding admins have to dig into their pockets at the end of the month - and they don't complain. That is dedication considering that the admin is usually putting in the most time and risk as well.

Tracker staff earning money? I think this is a joke at the moment as most trackers are run on a purely volunteer basis. Back in the day you didn't get paid for setting up a BBS. It was done for the fun of it. Then everyone who did it made money later on because the skills they learned are useful in real world settings. It's just too bad you can't put this kind of stuff on a resume.

There are perks though to being a staff. Some funky recognition, being able to modify and improve your site, etc. For some it's being able to smack down people on the forums - get that little power trip. Regardless, it's all part of a collective effort and an awesome hobby to boot.

[lhnz]

No. This is downright wrong. The only good staff do their work for free. Those that want any reimbursement should fuck off.

[horiZen]

all donations should first go to server cost and keeping the site running. If there is anything left over after a month then maybe but it would probably be smarter to keep that leftover money in case the next month doesnt go quite as well. Bottom line is if you cant pay to keep the site running then there wont be any staff.

unlike trackers like ftn where they get double the amount of donations every month. The amount of donations ftn gets is fuking crazy and this is not just once of twice it happens nearly every single month.

Brandon you cunt. :o

lol,,you want a slice of the pie as well then

[SgtMajor]

If there is excess funding left over after all bills paid, then reimbursement of any previous costs incurred by owners setting it all up many months ago is not a prob.

If the donations improve, then sure, better equipment and a site seedbox, or 2, could be justified.

What I find distasteful is making a killing out of it, or a living out of it even, as "perks of the job", however, what could be argued is that usenet server staff get paid, and very well and legitimately, why therefore shouldn't BT server staff, same thing right? Just files on the interwebz being downloaded by users, it's just their choice where they get them files from.

[ftnftw]

all donations should first go to server cost and keeping the site running. if there is anything left over after a month then maybe but it would probably be smarter to keep that leftover money in case the next month doesnt go quite as well. bottom line is if you cant pay to keep the site running then there wont be any staff.

Unlike trackers like FTN where they get double the amount of donations EVERY month. The amount of donations FTN gets is fuking crazy and this is not just once of twice it happens nearly every single month.

Brandon you cunt. :O

1) The current server bills are fairly low because they use a pretty weak server. Also they plan on upgrading the servers soon, because the current one is inadequate for desired growth.
2) The donation bar just increased this month to account for the future plans of a new server and it hit a little over 10% beyond what is needed. No more doubling I guess.
3) Maybe the fact that FTN receives more in donations is simply a positive reflection on how great the site is and how the small but active group of members really think the site is worth their support.
4) Brandon is the man. We all <3 him.

Oh hai guys, I iz new here, can I haz some wub?

[spybot229]

No, it would change the motivation of the staff and you would get people being there for the wrong reasons.

[colbert]

The sites run by "get quick fast" people are fairly easy to spot. Note the massive PM's and news items begging for donations. Otherwise site owners should not be paid if they are smart.

[KFlint]

question is, do trackers having pay2leech policy , t-shirt selling etc... use the extra money to pay themselves already or not...

if they say they don't, we still be really sure of that...but if they do, i wouldn't want to be in their shoes the day the police take down their site

[integral]

SuperTorrents:
December, 2007 $15385

That was all used only for server bills of course!

[OTO]

SuperTorrents:
December, 2007 $15385

That was all used only for server bills of course!
Is that right? :O

[Swift]

torrents are free so why not staff be free , i`m not against but it`s not a good ideea to pay staff

[SgtMajor]

question is, do trackers having pay2leech policy , t-shirt selling etc... use the extra money to pay themselves already or not...

if they say they don't, we still be really sure of that...but if they do, i wouldn't want to be in their shoes the day the police take down their site

It's all hidden, which stinks.

Anybody running anything where money is involved have to show ins/outs balance books at the end of a financial year, torrent sites don't, so we /never/ truly know where anything goes.

Until we get full transparency, there will always be a bad smell of something isn't quite right.

[MDMAX]

moeny is corrupt the scene

[Trippin']

In most cases tracker staff do deserve to get paid, but they are volunteers after all so they shouldn't expect it. If the trackers do get silly amount of donations (FTN) then yeah, hand some out to the staff!

[SenorBubbz]

It's a volunteer job. Volunteers don't get paid do they?

[mrnobody]

i don't see why staffers should be paid :unsure:

/me wears glasses.

na-uh, still don't see it.

/me gets mechanical microscope.

nope, nothing.

/me gets electronic microscope.

nois, nothing still.

perhaps it's farther away...

/me gets telescope

damnit, i don't see anything.

editZ: ops, i had my eyes closed all alone :mellow:

[buggyfresh]

No. Torrenting is about sharing things fo free..only reason money is involved is that the internet isn't freee. Ppl who want to staff should do that in the same spirit volunteeers for soup kitchens work..out of a passion love or need to help, not for benefit..and hey I'm sure they beneffit from the tracker being alive via downloads anyway!

[stoi]

OK everyone says you cant profit from P2P, fair enough, I agree with you even though some out there will say i do not.

But lets look at this realistically.

People pay the scene for scene access, they donate servers and bw for scene access, they would sell their wife to a scene member for scene access if they could.

Now i have nothing against the scene at all, but the fact is the above still happens.

usenet companies must be making a pretty penny, Rapidshare must as well.

If torrent sites even look like they are making cash, all hell breaks loose and there is hell on, I just dont understand it.

I have even tried taken donations off altogether for a month and just having ads, it did not work at all. Then i had donations no ads and no benefits and that did not work either.

We do not ask you to pay anything, if you wish to donate great, but without some bonuses involved, no one donates, i should know i tried it. and when the media comes out with "he was making £30,000 a month" i just laugh, and think yeah right, if that site was making that, then i am doing something very very wrong (not that i even want to make a fraction of that).

and then you have the argument of, well that site has 1000 members, the site with 50,000 members must be making a fortune, but most members of private trackers are members of others as well, they cant donate to them all every month.

this is just from my personal experience you understand, some other trackers may very well be pulling in the numbers i quoted, and if they are good luck to them, if they went down tomorrow, yous would be the first to cry about it (look at oink if he really was making that much).

Honestly all this holier than vow attitude pisses me off sometimes, if you dont want to donate, dont donate (no tracker forces you), if you think a tracker is making a fortune and you dont agree with it, delete your account, just dont presume that member numbers mean the tracker in question is raking in a fortune, because it does not work that way.

[Brandon]

Unlike trackers like FTN where they get double the amount of donations EVERY month. The amount of donations FTN gets is fuking crazy and this is not just once of twice it happens nearly every single month.

Brandon you cunt. :O

1) The current server bills are fairly low because they use a pretty weak server. Also they plan on upgrading the servers soon, because the current one is inadequate for desired growth.
2) The donation bar just increased this month to account for the future plans of a new server and it hit a little over 10% beyond what is needed. No more doubling I guess.
3) Maybe the fact that FTN receives more in donations is simply a positive reflection on how great the site is and how the small but active group of members really think the site is worth their support.
4) Brandon is the man. We all <3 him.

Oh hai guys, I iz new here, can I haz some wub?

FTN has a lot of amazing members who support us every step of the way. But you have to keep in mind, our donation costs were only $200 for a long time (which is why they doubled so easily), and I did pay for some of that for a while because I'm not the type of person who likes to ask for things, especially money. Truth be told, I paid a portion of FTN's bill for most of the first year we were up, as did our third original sysop.

Most of these sites pay in some way or shape to get their releases. FTN does not. That cuts quite a bit of our costs, which is really something that's allowed us to pursue our moral goals and more freely pursue our ideas (or experiments).

Our costs have gone up the past month in order for me to continue to add value to the site, and none of our donations have ever entered my pocket or any other ftn staff's pocket. I started my torrent activity back when it first began. The general idea at that time was to bring a piece of the scene to the general population, and rebel against what I always considered overly inflated prices. For me it's always been about the appreciation and sense of personal accomplishment. That and the fact that I love my staff to death and would miss the hell out of them.

Having said that though, I think it's really a hard issue to agree on. I can see the argument on both sides, and unless you really enjoy what you're doing.. Then of course you're going to want some type of compensation for doing it (profit).

PS: Hai ftnftw

[Funkin']

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for me to care any less if they get paid or not. It's not going to affect my leeching.

But besides, as someone else mentioned, they're all volunteers. Now, if a greedy admin just has to pocket the left overs after every months donations instead of sinking back into tracker for future costs, upgrades, and the like, then that money should be put aside incase any of the staff members get into trouble(like Stoi tried to do with his staff).

[bammers]

The big uploaders at these sites are paying for their seedboxes, the admins are paying for their hosting and by offering there freetime. it all kinda evens out at the end....

[saulin]

It's hobby dude. You can't just get paid for it. People choose to be mods at message boards and trackers on their own and also you can't depend just on donations to keep a site running. I do believe that if there is danger of a really good tracker going down because of server costs for example. Donations should be given to support the site. But like I said this is a hobby not a job.

[JROQuinn]

who gives a shit!?!! If you dont like the fact that someone is making a profit from the site then get your own site & make it super 1337. All in all, you're just jealous that you aint making the cabbage :)

I have a job, thats how I get my money & I dotn give a shit how you make yours as long as it doesnt involve a truly criminal action like selling crack to kids, etc. So again I dont care if a tracker makes $10,000 profit, I congratulate them.

[users]

well, tl and sct sucks, why would you sell invites and offer pay-to-leech.....profit.

[ben99]

hmm, 4818 out of 2000 dollars for SCT, and the money goes to the server fund...hmm yeah right. Feeling must be making a good amount of money each month...

[Green Goblin]

depends on how much the tracker is making in donations if they make a shitload of money sure hand it out.

[users]

hmm, 4818 out of 2000 dollars for SCT, and the money goes to the server fund...hmm yeah right. Feeling must be making a good amount of money each month...

so much for "sharing"....hope they get taken down....

[SgtMajor]

Re: should tracker staff get laid?

/fixed.

No - never.

[Mister Moo]

hmm, 4818 out of 2000 dollars for SCT, and the money goes to the server fund...hmm yeah right. Feeling must be making a good amount of money each month...

so much for "sharing"....hope they get taken down....

It's no secret that Feeling pockets money

[integral]

so much for "sharing"....hope they get taken down....

It's no secret that Feeling pockets money

Who cares. If anyone on ScT has moral discontent with what they do, don't use your account anymore, and you shouldn't be using torrents to begin with. A lot of people make money off of other's peoples shit, just look at Bill Gates.

[alcoholik]

so long i dont have to donate money for downloading, i'm okej ;)

[soulreaper]

Re: should tracker staff get laid?

/fixed.

No - never.

Ahaahaahaaa hahahaa good one!

[milkshake48]

so much for "sharing"....hope they get taken down....

It's no secret that Feeling pockets money
I love how you guys walk in here acting like you know what you're talking about when in reality you don't have the slightest fucking clue. It's quite a big deal to accuse someone of pocketing donations. Do you have proof showing that it's "no big secret"... oh wait, there is none. Why's that? Because no one pockets the donations.

[colbert]

so much for "sharing"....hope they get taken down....

It's no secret that Feeling pockets money

Do you have any proof of this? :huh: I know the site takes in a ton of money, but their costs are high too.

[BlueLabel]

what about fst staff?? they give time and hard work too
shouldn't they supposed to get paid too?
every running site needs time and work and the trackers arent so different than other webs on the net.

[wheeloftime]

I've never understood why anyone would have a problem with staffers getting paid. They take all the risks and spend large amounts of their time giving us something that the majority of members take for free. Why do people care if they get a little something back in return.

[sokrates]

tracker staff shouldnt expect to be paid.. its just for fun right?

[integral]

If I ran a tracker, and the donation target was exceeded by a lot, I'd just lottery it off to the users who donated for that month. Seems like the right thing to do.

[becomehokage]

If I ran a tracker, and the donation target was exceeded by a lot, I'd just lottery it off to the users who donated for that month. Seems like the right thing to do.
Im sure you'd do it.

[bblogs]

If I ran a tracker, and the donation target was exceeded by a lot, I'd just lottery it off to the users who donated for that month. Seems like the right thing to do.

I know it's probably not the point you were making, but that'd be a short sighted thing to do, who knows what might happen later on, or even what security or quality could be added to the site with that money...

But anyway, who cares if a sysop is pocketing money?
If you don't like it, don't donate....If you're jealous, then start up your own tracker yourself.

[DV8type]

Depends on the site. If the site is running a P2L/P2I/P4G model then it is a business and because it is a business the owner should pay its workers, ie. staff/uploaders. They are for profit. And in my opinion if they do not are crooks
Of course there is another side of the coin, where a site is honest and forthwright to its members about the amount needed to cover server cost and will usually barely make that minimum. You can consider those non-profits and usually those staff will never think about asking for compensation as they do it for other reasons.

[stoi]

Depends on the site. If the site is running a P2L/P2I/P4G model then it is a business and because it is a business the owner should pay its workers, ie. staff/uploaders. They are for profit. And in my opinion if they do not are crooks
Of course there is another side of the coin, where a site is honest and forthwright to its members about the amount needed to cover server cost and will usually barely make that minimum. You can consider those non-profits and usually those staff will never think about asking for compensation as they do it for other reasons.

Sorry DV8type but i do have to counter that.

How do you know that every site that does P2L (and what is P2L anyway?) is making a profit.

I know we never did when we used to offer gigs for donations, but is that really P2L.

Like i have said before.

members pay for faster connections, members pay for Seedboxes, members pay for Newsgroup/Rapidshare/Scene axx. but at the end of the day, that doesnt help the site keep afloat and its head above water.

So what if members pay for gigs, the others pay to get their ratio up in another way, so why cant some pay the site to do it, because lets face it, it is mathematically impossible for every member to have a 1 ratio, or not to have a hit and run on a torrent on actual ratio alone (seeding time and Sp and all those do help that out and nullify it bit)

But i honestly cant see why a member cant donate some cash to get a little boost in their ratio, i would rather they done that and kept the trackers alive (not even mine, all of them) than everyone that did donate got a seedbox and used that instead. A seedbox is no good if there are no trackers to seed on, or no downloaders because they all got banned for low ratio.

[IdolEyes787]

If I ran a tracker, and the donation target was exceeded by a lot, I'd just lottery it off to the users who donated for that month. Seems like the right thing to do.

I know it's probably not the point you were making, but that'd be a short sighted thing to do, who knows what might happen later on, or even what security or quality could be added to the site with that money...

But anyway, who cares if a sysop is pocketing money?
If you don't like it, don't donate....If you're jealous, then start up your own tracker yourself.

While I agree with the merits of having a reserve fund,I think that there are obviously reasonable limits.
The bit about a sysop pocketing money- fine if he's willing to be upfront about it.Then I can make a informed decision if that site and the way they operate are something I wish to continue supporting.
Otherwise as DV8type put it he's a crook.

[yevgeny]

i think donations are just that donations to help fund internet bandwidth and site resources, anything left over should stay in the kitty for next month seeing as 'it is a community not run by a few power hungry members.' or thats what most faqs used to say.

IMO the best donation method is allow ratio to auto complete to 1.0 for those who need it and for those that dont they can have a warm fuzzy feeling and a star...or not donate but be expected to share in other ways like seeding and buying bandwidth.

i realise staff put a lot of time into sites but i think foremost for them it should be a hobby they enjoy.

[Swax]

Staff should not get paid, or a 'wage' as such as this would further complicate the already illegal activities going on within the tracker.

I do not see the harm in necessary/useful (yes, I do know the 2 words are not the same) products/services being paid for by the tracker donations on behalf of the site.
For example a BNC for every staff member, and a server or 2 for the staff to run competition games off or host videos/images.

People would be very naive to think that no site Sysops pocketed some of the funds raised through surplus donations.
Of course not every site does it, but who's to say what goes on behind the scenes. I don't think any staff would ever admit to it, not even to their own staff.

[mrnobody]

Someone brought a point about paying uploaders, but don't they already get enough benefits?

- They get axx to site features (like logs, top ten list, usersearch) the very instant they are promoted to uploader.

- Some sites do provide long time uploaders with free scene axx or some other kwel package like cheaper box.

- If a site has a request invite feature, uploaders have higher chance of getting accepted then normal users do.

- A contributing uploader usually ends up being VIP or something alike.

- Their torrent gets bunch of thanks. FLSers or even staffers prolly don't get that much thanks as uploader do ;)

Basically they are liked, thanked, and loved for what they like to do (that is upload to trackers) :-]

[danio]

Someone brought a point about paying uploaders, but don't they already get enough benefits?

- They get axx to site features (like logs, top ten list, usersearch) the very instant they are promoted to uploader.

- Some sites do provide long time uploaders with free scene axx or some other kwel package like cheaper box.

- If a site has a request invite feature, uploaders have higher chance of getting accepted then normal users do.

- A contributing uploader usually ends up being VIP or something alike.

- Their torrent gets bunch of thanks. FLSers or even staffers prolly don't get that much thanks as uploader do ;)

Basically they are liked, thanked, and loved for what they like to do (that is upload to trackers) :-]

While this is true, you oversee the fact that the staff benefits from all of this and even more privilegies aswell. So the argument is still valid. If staff should get payed, so should uploaders etc.

[mrnobody]

While this is true, you oversee the fact that the staff benefits from all of this and even more privilegies aswell. So the argument is still valid. If staff should get payed, so should uploaders etc.

Staffer is a different case. Usualy, they don't upload torrentz u see.

Regardless, there is no need to pay a staffer as well. Nobody is forcing them to run a tracker or be part of it. If they won't do it, someone else will be more than happy to do it...voluntarily.

Beside, i doubt anyone that uses torrent does so for money. I mean, pirate = save money =\ earn money.

[pro267]

Regardless, there is no need to pay a staffer as well. Nobody is forcing them to run a tracker or be part of it. If they won't do it, someone else will be more than happy to do it...voluntarily.
While I agree that staffers should not get paid, I strongly object to the last part of that quote, and find it extremely disrespectful to staffers. Whether you realize it or not, most staffers work their asses off to keep the site alive and kicking for you, with nothing more than a will to contribute and a bit of gratitude from the members to motivate them to do that.

A huge amount of a tracker's success comes from the way the specific people staffing the site build and maintain it. In other words, the site wouldn't be the same without them. I'm not sure whether you meant it to sound that way, but the way I'm reading what you've said is that every staffer can simply fuck off and someone else will easily take his/her place, and to me that belittles the contribution of each staffer to the success of his/her site.

[DV8type]

Sorry DV8type but i do have to counter that.

How do you know that every site that does P2L (and what is P2L anyway?) is making a profit.

Well like i insinuated, hopefully the site owner is honest with staff. i would say 90% of current popular Pay2Leech sites make a profit from it. I dont want to go into details but it is well known and most that do are not ashamed of it.

P2L (and its variants) is a BUSINESS Model. If it is not making a profit they shouldnt do it. Since it is a business the employees should be paid. Just like a Six Flag theme park....

As per the "it would complicate the issue since its illegal." Too late for that. Staff is a target and the site is already making money. You think they are gonna say, "ohhh you didnt make any profit, ill let you off the hook." Nope. If your being used and abused might as well get a dollar from it.

[grimms]

I would first make sure costs go to the server first like various people already stated, but if anything is left over... sure a $10 spot here or $5 spot there would be well deserved I think but regular payment no.

[mrnobody]

Regardless, there is no need to pay a staffer as well. Nobody is forcing them to run a tracker or be part of it. If they won't do it, someone else will be more than happy to do it...voluntarily.
While I agree that staffers should not get paid, I strongly object to the last part of that quote, and find it extremely disrespectful to staffers. Whether you realize it or not, most staffers work their asses off to keep the site alive and kicking for you, with nothing more than a will to contribute and a bit of gratitude from the members to motivate them to do that.

A huge amount of a tracker's success comes from the way the specific people staffing the site build and maintain it. In other words, the site wouldn't be the same without them. I'm not sure whether you meant it to sound that way, but the way I'm reading what you've said is that every staffer can simply fuck off and someone else will easily take his/her place, and to me that belittles the contribution of each staffer to the success of his/her site.

Na, I didn’t mean to disrespect every staffer out there.

I was referring to the fact that there are people who are willing to step up and fill in for someone else. Like when <what’s her name?> introduced torrent as a business thingy, there were group of peeps who opened another tracker <insert name as I don’t exactly remember it> without self-interest or something alike.

editZ: ^ that might as well sound like a disrespect or something but by no mean i meant any disrespect...rather i suppose it's just the way i word it ekk.

[JROQuinn]

Why do you people worry so much about something that has no effect on you? When it comes to money, people start raving about who is getting what.

I am relieved that they dont get laid though :P

[saulin]

Well the original question sounded like. Should they get pay, as in should they get a salary. I just think it's a hobby and not a job.

However yeah if the donations are big and there is left over money why not share it between the staff :D

In fact, I do not doubt that it happens in some trackers.

[FuTuRe]

the short answer, no.

[cullen7282]

I don't see the big deal. They probably shouldn't rely on donations for a regular salary, but if they do really good and exceed what they needed I don't see the problem with "bonuses". As long as it's all straight and upfront, no one has a reason to bitch.
They put a lot of time into these sites, usually with no appreciation. Even worse than no appreciation is the crap and abuse they have to put up with from some members. I don't see a problem with a little bit of cash being distributed if they have some left over.

[Nemrod]

I´ve seen three types of trackers: those that were created as a business, for profit -most of them don´t last more than few months-; those that were created moved by an ideal and for fun and stand loyal to that; and it´s the third type, a mix of the other two, began with noble intentions but once the owners saw that they were receiving much more than needed they became greedy.
It´s a very thin line easy to cross, even without realize it... take few dollars for a, perhaps, good and deserving reason but hen could be for not so good or reasonable cause, besides that will always a thing about who says what it´s good and reasonable. Perhaps buying a game console to fight stress caused by tracker, pay the power or internet bill or any other thing could be interpreted as fair, but they are not from the way I see this torrentworld.
From my point of view staff should not take a cent from donations for themselves nor for any anything else than site costs... whatever site costs and only site costs be. I know that´s a hard work, takes a lot time and most of times they don´t even are respected or treated as deserved, but those were and always have been known things and even so they decided to start, so, deal with it or quit.
That´s my thought, but as far as they don´t make donations mandatory, at the end of the day it´s not my business.
Anyway, few trackers cover their monthly costs, and about the others that do I seriously doubt, except in a very few and known cases, that this could be a real business, so it´s not my problem either.

[Swax]

As per the "it would complicate the issue since its illegal." Too late for that. Staff is a target and the site is already making money. You think they are gonna say, "ohhh you didnt make any profit, ill let you off the hook." Nope. If your being used and abused might as well get a dollar from it.

:dry: I really hope that's not a horrible misinterpretation of my words;


Staff should not get paid, or a 'wage' as such as this would further complicate the already illegal activities going on within the tracker.

Staff are obviously at risk already. But for staff to receive money it would have to be direct (unless you're lucky enough to have fake bank accounts in another country).
Whereas if the tracker pays for goods on behalf of a person then they are not directly linked to the Paypal account.


An IP address is incriminating, yes. But a monetary transfer into one of your accounts is damning.

[Polarbear]

But a monetary transfer into one of your accounts is damning.

that's right. making profit from selling pirated copyrighted material in large amounts to thousands of people isn't a picknick in legal terms.

unless you have the money for a good lawyer you're pretty much fucked. oink knew why he didn't sell gigs.

[stoi]

But we are not "selling" anything.

What is wrong is making a torrent site and telling people that in order to join you have to donate, or Buy an account.

that is wrong to the highest extremes imaginable, but i never hear many ppl having a go at trackers that do that, i wont name names but there are those that do it.

Donating to get a few gig here and there so you do not get banned, is not "selling" anything, next you will be saying we are selling the "star" members get.

We dont take donations, you have Porn ads instead, which would piss people off even more than donations, we have donations and no bonuses at all, no one donates. (i know i had the balls to try it).

You donate for a little help in the SP mod, timewise and more points, its not gigs for cash so no one donates, its their time so who cares if they wait 4 days or 2 days to get a 1 ratio.

Just taking donations is bloody risky in the eyes of the law and the media, but having a load of ads does not work, most members just block them anyway. when we had ads on we made £25 a month, we have a shop that sells T-Shirts and things, I have made $120 in 4 years of running it. and i cant get a cheque until i reach $250 lol

Honestly all this garbage about if you have this or that you must be making a fortune, its just not true at all.

I would say a tracker with 3000 good members, probably makes more money than a tracker with 50,000 that just want the files and nothing else, because the 50,000 do not care if the tracker goes down, the 3000 in the smaller tracker does.

[Polarbear]

But we are not "selling" anything.


let's hope none of you (tracker staff) will ever have to debate this question with a highly paid prosecutor. i think he might beg to differ.

i didn't refer to bcg by the way. i don't even know wether you have a pay2leech system or not.

[stoi]

we dont but even if we did what exactly would we be selling?

because i cant see us selling anything.

If you joined and you had to pay 30p to download a torrent, thats selling, if you have to pay to get an account, thats selling, donating to a site is selling nothing at all.

[Polarbear]

donating to a site is selling nothing at all.

in legal terms it is. as soon as you get a value (easier access to warez in our case) back, it's a transaction and not a donation anymore. the gigs of upload you donate for is nothing else than a voucher for more download.

companies get in trouble all the time, because they had a different understanding of the word "donation"

when you donate for freeware or donationware for example, it isn't a donation either. in legal terms you bought the software.

[stoi]

Well its not really a voucher for more download (ok sometimes it is if the tracker gives you 350gig for a tenner, and have no hit and run policy, i can see that) its more you donate so you do not get banned.

but on BCG you cant get banned for a low ratio, and you cant use a buffer to just "download" anything you want, you can even download 1TB and not upload byte and still not get banned on BCG. but i am seriously considering bringing Gigs for £ back, i have even halfed the donation amount from the other month, thinking make it lower, more may donate, but its basically just the same ones donating, but at half the price.

But the problem is with that, donations drop through the floor, like i said as long as i can pay the server/s every month great, thats all i care about, but when a site does get taken down and says the owner was making £30,000 a month and they spout all sorts of money out of their ass, its just not right, and if it convinces people that use torrents thats the case, what chance have we got against joe public when they hear that. (i am pretty sure when Oink got arrested they said something like £15,000-£30,000 a month he was taking in.)

[BlueLabel]

how this thread turn to donation subject??

[stoi]

how this thread turn to donation subject??

because its FST, it always happens lol

[integral]

To be precise on a subject that has been touched upon in this thread, giving benefits in any way for a donation, makes it not a donation. In the USA and a lot of other countries, giving benefits/rewards/incentives for donations makes it donation solicitation.

However, paying employees or even yourself with donation money is allowed, so long as you officially document it as a form of employment when you file those taxes.

[BlueLabel]

you don't get benefits from donations.
if someone donate he is donate because he want too and not because the benefits.
I donate many times too some trackers and never ask for return
what you call benefits its just a gratitude for your donation, and besides.. no one force you to donate and its up to you if you donate or not.

[Nemrod]

I´m sorry but I think that in the moment that the user gets something else than the thanks, even if it is only one of those useless and ridiculous star, the thing stops being a donation.

[sear]

Well its not really a voucher for more download (ok sometimes it is if the tracker gives you 350gig for a tenner, and have no hit and run policy, i can see that) its more you donate so you do not get banned.

but on BCG you cant get banned for a low ratio, and you cant use a buffer to just "download" anything you want, you can even download 1TB and not upload byte and still not get banned on BCG. but i am seriously considering bringing Gigs for £ back, i have even halfed the donation amount from the other month, thinking make it lower, more may donate, but its basically just the same ones donating, but at half the price.

While that argument works on a filesharing forum the chances of getting a court to understand it/accept it are pretty slim. All they're going to see is the offer of cash for easier download.

[xnugx]

To be precise on a subject that has been touched upon in this thread, giving benefits in any way for a donation, makes it not a donation. In the USA and a lot of other countries, giving benefits/rewards/incentives for donations makes it donation solicitation.

However, paying employees or even yourself with donation money is allowed, so long as you officially document it as a form of employment when you file those taxes.

Which is retarded. It's basically the same as filing for doing something illegal. It'd be like paying your dealers if you are a narcotics shipper and filing it. :noes:

[integral]

To be precise on a subject that has been touched upon in this thread, giving benefits in any way for a donation, makes it not a donation. In the USA and a lot of other countries, giving benefits/rewards/incentives for donations makes it donation solicitation.

However, paying employees or even yourself with donation money is allowed, so long as you officially document it as a form of employment when you file those taxes.

Which is retarded. It's basically the same as filing for doing something illegal. It'd be like paying your dealers if you are a narcotics shipper and filing it. :noes:

Trust me when I say that if you are making a large amount of money and not paying the Government their share, the Taxman will come and fuck up your life, eventually. :yup:

And not all websites have blatant ways of collecting money. For example, TL uses an incentivized advertisement as their way of collecting money. ScT uses some kind of donation front. So it wouldn't necessarily be counted as reporting something illegal.

[Moonspell13]

Should tracker staff get paid? No , never.. ever..

And if ppl are fool enough to staff for a site that's more of a shop (as it was pointed out earlier some big p2l sites are making lots of money) then who gives a #^%$^%$ ... They should see what's going on around em and abandon the ship before its sunk.. With them in it.. The users could make the difference by not supporting those p2l sites but unfortunately most ppl don't give a $#^# as long as they get what they want..

[FACE_TO_FACE]

In my opinion if I were a staff of some tracker a dinner per year paid by the tracker would be great :D

[DeathAngel]

/me thinks that getting paid for being on staff is bullshit ... Donations are donated by the users for one purpose , making the site better . So any sort of extra cash should follow that purpose ...

[Brandon]

I think a lot of people forget that fact that when you begin to profit from warez, the stakes change quite a bit in the legal area. PayPal keeps logs of everything, forever.. So if for example you use this donation acct to buy a new ipod, or start sending money to your bank account (which is then considered as income btw), they'll know if they ever take you to court and start seeking evidence.

Doesn't matter if you have some sort of "front" for the donation profit scheme. Just like you and I could figure that out, so could the authorities. They aren't as stupid as most people assume :P


btw, doing p2l would be considered in the court as further facilitating in the distribution of warez, because in accordance with the rules you set on that site, you help extend the longevity and ability of such account to obtain copyright material :P

So those two together are what, +3 years in prison if ever convicted?

[Skiz]

Sage advise:

You'll never get paid for a job that someone else is willing to do for free.

[KFlint]

Sage advise:

You'll never get paid for a job that someone else is willing to do for free.

one exception being : porn actors

[Polarbear]

Sage advise:

You'll never get paid for a job that someone else is willing to do for free.

one exception being : porn actors

yeah, coz y'all gotta be good to do that shit. like with the cam rollin and shit.

[mrnobody]

But we are not "selling" anything.


let's hope none of you (tracker staff) will ever have to debate this question with a highly paid prosecutor. i think he might beg to differ.

i didn't refer to bcg by the way. i don't even know wether you have a pay2leech system or not.

OiNK was accused of something like, "making money in the name of 'donations'". They even said OiNK membership could only be obtained by payment. And when torrentfreak wrote otherwise, the authorities responded something like "180,000 OiNK members must have been more generous then I expected ." wacko

The point is if authorities were to break into a tracker, they would not give a flying f about whether a tracker has P2l or not....they can make up their own stuff and people (plus media) will easily buy it. Yes, P2L might be additional cause for severe the punishment but how worse can it make?

editZ: oink bail extended to 10th lozl.

[Mareko]

Salary for staffers - that would have been great, lol.
Staffing is and should always be a hobby. Once u pay em you'll lose the dedication and the passion that most unpaid staff have.

[leafgxu]

In my opinion, in private tracker, we all share and devote for others, so everyone is a volunteer. The donation should just have to buy and maintain the server.

[Sanka113]

I think people in general should get paid if they're helping the owner make money. What I mean by this, is that if the site is making a profit off of advertising, donations, whatever; then, there should naturally be a distribution of wealth. This seemingly simple concept is at times hard to grasp ,which in turn, cause issues among management.

[helpme]

and what about uploaders keeping the site alive?

and people being active on IRC and forums keeping the community alive?

should we all get paid? don't think so otherwise it would be ever simpler to sue a tracker :(
Agree with what you say man :yup:

[dafunks]

I donate regularly to the sites I love and I feel deserve it, sites that are run by staff that have a genuine love for that they do, not sites that are blatantly cash cows. The sysops never know what is around the corner and what issues the sites they run will face, having additional money at hand could greatly aid in the likes of a quick site relocation.

Back on topic, no, I don't believe tracker staff should be paid, it should be done for the pure enjoyment of being part of a site they have a genuine love for. The minute people start doing it for money, it all goes to shit.

[Jim]

i think they should for providing a service to us but then again if the poop hits the fan and they arent payed its a lot easier to avoid the inevitable ! difficult one to call really

[Brandon]

let's hope none of you (tracker staff) will ever have to debate this question with a highly paid prosecutor. i think he might beg to differ.

i didn't refer to bcg by the way. i don't even know wether you have a pay2leech system or not.

OiNK was accused of something like, "making money in the name of 'donations'". They even said OiNK membership could only be obtained by payment. And when torrentfreak wrote otherwise, the authorities responded something like "180,000 OiNK members must have been more generous then I expected ." wacko

The point is if authorities were to break into a tracker, they would not give a flying f about whether a tracker has P2l or not....they can make up their own stuff and people (plus media) will easily buy it. Yes, P2L might be additional cause for severe the punishment but how worse can it make?

editZ: oink bail extended to 10th lozl.

Accusations and facts are totally different things. The authorities can say anything they want, and they will in order to get people worked up.. But in a court, accusations hold no value without proof. When they bring up the evidence on the server, clearly stating that you give $x, you get x credits then that clearly brings up debate about selling warez because you're directly selling the ability to download just that.. You could shoot back at me saying ISP's are selling warez b/c they give you the ability to download it, but there are many more uses for the internet than warez and ISP's don't advertise anything of the illegal sort. On a torrent site, when you buy those GB's, you can use them for only one thing: Downloading warez.

That doesn't even include what happens when they get the paypal transaction records (which they can) and see you've been sending a couple grand a month to escort services and other personal things like your bank account and such.

[dafunks]

.....paypal transaction records (which they can) and see you've been sending a couple grand a month to escort services....

WALLHAX, how did you know?

:blink:

[wheeloftime]

Sage advise:

You'll never get paid for a job that someone else is willing to do for free.

Generally true, but sometimes it depends on how well you do the job.

[Swax]

On a torrent site, when you buy those GB's, you can use them for only one thing: Downloading warez.

If a lawyer was prosecuting me basing their case on that I'd feel all warm and tingly inside knowing they're blissfully naive.

Bittorrent trackers do have the occassional legitimate download. Be it freeware software, royalty-free albums or even user-created content (tutorials, eBooks, How-To Videos...). As long as a tracker has at least some of these files then the tracker itself is not illegal, only some (albeit most) of the content is illegal.

[Peanut]

Well i seeded over 1TB and download berly in the hundreds ...... On a site that i love ......
do i deserve to get pay for it ( it did cost me electricity,time) and a risk of getting a big fine ........ and am just a member there .....
The answer is nooooo why? cause every thing is free of what we download
and if you need money ( get a job like any other person) "Cashcrate"
- We all waste our time on stupid things ......... It doesn't mean we should get pay for them ....
:fst::fst::fst::fst:

[Silverleaf]

@Peanut... you are right... you have electricity bills but think about it over again. You download software/movies/games worth over 1 million dollars every year (or maybe more....much more) so i guess that will compensate your electricity bill.

[wheeloftime]

Well i seeded over 1TB and download berly in the hundreds ...... On a site that i love ......
do i deserve to get pay for it ( it did cost me electricity,time) and a risk of getting a big fine ........ and am just a member there .....
The answer is nooooo why? cause every thing is free of what we download
and if you need money ( get a job like any other person) "Cashcrate"
- We all waste our time on stupid things ......... It doesn't mean we should get pay for them ....
:fst::fst::fst::fst:


The staff at MacDonalds get paid for cooking my burgers and yet I don't get paid for eating them. It costs me petrol, time etc. and I take the risk of food poisoning.

[ftnftw]

On a torrent site, when you buy those GB's, you can use them for only one thing: Downloading warez.

If a lawyer was prosecuting me basing their case on that I'd feel all warm and tingly inside knowing they're blissfully naive.

Bittorrent trackers do have the occassional legitimate download. Be it freeware software, royalty-free albums or even user-created content (tutorials, eBooks, How-To Videos...). As long as a tracker has at least some of these files then the tracker itself is not illegal, only some (albeit most) of the content is illegal.

That lawyer may seem naive to a bt pro like yourself, but the inference is not a great logical leap. I could see that argument actually working.

Also, the fact that a handful of non-infringing content is available on a tracker does very little to support the legality of a tracker that facilitates the infringement of PBs of infringing material.

Your points may stand true in a vacuum, but they are extremely weak and it is highly improbable that a judge will find such arguments persuasive.

[Polarbear]

On a torrent site, when you buy those GB's, you can use them for only one thing: Downloading warez.

If a lawyer was prosecuting me basing their case on that I'd feel all warm and tingly inside knowing they're blissfully naive.

Bittorrent trackers do have the occassional legitimate download. Be it freeware software, royalty-free albums or even user-created content (tutorials, eBooks, How-To Videos...). As long as a tracker has at least some of these files then the tracker itself is not illegal, only some (albeit most) of the content is illegal.

every country has different laws. in most western countries any expert in copyright law would smile at you when he'd hear that.

a chinese company that fakes industrial design doesn't get legal if they create something by their own sometimes.

[Swax]

That lawyer may seem naive to a bt pro like yourself, but the inference is not a great logical leap. I could see that argument actually working.

Also, the fact that a handful of non-infringing content is available on a tracker does very little to support the legality of a tracker that facilitates the infringement of PBs of infringing material.

Your points may stand true in a vacuum, but they are extremely weak and it is highly improbable that a judge will find such arguments persuasive.

For the lawyer to make such an inference* would involve ignoring the facts. The prosecutor would almost be making an assumption based on biased and incorrect information from the authorities.
Jumping to conclusions, as a lawyer, does not appease most judges, assuming the case is fair.

I am by no means trying to claim that donating to a torrent tracker is a wise act, as the authorities would see it as a contribution to misbegotten wealth for the tracker's owners through malfeasance.

I am merely mentioning a point that is constantly iterated and ever clearer; that judges are no longer as susceptible to assumptions made by the media (or prosecutors) as they once were.

(*=that only Warez can be downloaded)

[CandyMan9999]

I am a part of a tracker staff and i don't get paid.It works just fine for me because along with my position i have a certain power and i can do plenty of great thins to help the tracker's developement.