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ilw
09-04-2003, 09:28 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3078216.stm


Scotland's most senior legal officer has asked for a report into whether a five-year prison sentence given to a man who raped an 13-month-old baby was "unduly lenient".

Lord Advocate Colin Boyd QC's move follows anger at the sentence given to father-of-three James Taylor, who took pictures of himself raping the baby.


He appeared for sentence at the High Court in Dunfermline after pleading guilty last month to raping the baby girl, indecency towards a six-year-old girl and possessing indecent images of children.
Police who raided his Grangemouth home found a powerful computer, CDs, and floppy disks containing 2,280 indecent images of children.

Most had been downloaded from the internet, but computer specialists were able to recover some horrific images of Taylor's own making which he had tried to delete.

They included graphic incriminating pictures of Taylor himself raping the baby girl, whose age at the time was estimated to be 13 months and of the six-year-old girl naked in bed.



he would have been jailed for much longer, if it had not been for a psychologist's report assessing there was only a low risk of him reoffending.


That is well f*cked up. i know this will probably bring nothing new to the variety of other anti paedophile threads, but i thought it was so screwed up i should post it anyway.

thewizeard
09-04-2003, 09:40 AM
That last quote gets me. I can not understand these psychologists that are so willing to take risks with other peoples children....

A tiger never changes its stripes.

bigboab
09-04-2003, 09:56 AM
It will probably be a shorter prison sentence once he gets inside!

sabbath
09-04-2003, 04:35 PM
I hope the guy at least gets to know his feminine side better in prison.

J'Pol
09-04-2003, 04:47 PM
How this can even be considered to be justice is absolutely beyond me.

Even if it were true that he would never re-offend how can this be justified. The punishment aspect of prison seems to have been removed. What message does this send out to others like him. If he can get away with that, then where is the preventive aspect of the sentencig.

This is an embarrasment to our country and I officialy apologise on it's behalf.

I can only hope that the Lord Advocate takes action, both with regard to the sentence and the Judge who made it.

N£MO
09-04-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by ilw@4 September 2003 - 10:28
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3078216.stm


Scotland's most senior legal officer has asked for a report into whether a five-year prison sentence given to a man who raped an 13-month-old baby was "unduly lenient".

Lord Advocate Colin Boyd QC's move follows anger at the sentence given to father-of-three James Taylor, who took pictures of himself raping the baby.


He appeared for sentence at the High Court in Dunfermline after pleading guilty last month to raping the baby girl, indecency towards a six-year-old girl and possessing indecent images of children.
Police who raided his Grangemouth home found a powerful computer, CDs, and floppy disks containing 2,280 indecent images of children.

Most had been downloaded from the internet, but computer specialists were able to recover some horrific images of Taylor's own making which he had tried to delete.

They included graphic incriminating pictures of Taylor himself raping the baby girl, whose age at the time was estimated to be 13 months and of the six-year-old girl naked in bed.



he would have been jailed for much longer, if it had not been for a psychologist's report assessing there was only a low risk of him reoffending.


That is well f*cked up. i know this will probably bring nothing new to the variety of other anti paedophile threads, but i thought it was so screwed up i should post it anyway.
That is sick.

sArA
09-04-2003, 07:05 PM
Since when has the justice system been just?

And how can it be if decisions like that are allowed to stand.....personally I would like to chop it off and put em in a very very secure hospital with very large and unpleasant minders (oh sorry I meant male nurses...lol) and with no chance of release...they are sick in a medical sense as it just aint normal behaviour...I dont think it is possible to ever be really 'cured' from this kind of mental deviance and so they can never be let out to find that 'the compulsion was too strong....blah blah'. Try explaining that to the parents and kids they abuse once they are supposed to be 'cured'

:angry:

tartanfruitfly
09-04-2003, 07:33 PM
A' well, ye can only hope for tha' best. At least he'll find himself a good husband whilst in his incarceration...

sabbath
09-04-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by tartanfruitfly@4 September 2003 - 21:33
A' well, ye can only hope for tha' best. At least he'll find himself a good husband whilst in his incarceration...
*ROFLMFAO* :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do a bit of "exploring"? :lol:

DanB
09-04-2003, 08:06 PM
what can i say. i have been in prison myself and i've seen what happens to nonces inside. he wont have an easy time. if he's in 'genpop' it will be a misery once people find out. i saw jugs of boiling water with sugar in thrown over them - it sticks like glue and takes every layer of skin off to the flesh; not much compensation to the young girls who's live he ruined but some thing for him to think about.

as for nonces in general its all pretty fucked up - i've lost count the number of times kiddy porn has come up in my searches or even on the free photo galleries

its blatantly not good at all. i agree with one thing though - how the hell can they say there is no danger of re-offending!!! whatever floats your boat will always do it - nothing can change what you like.


by the way boycott amazon - they're selling some nasty book trying to rationalize man/boy love - urgh!!

Ron
09-04-2003, 08:59 PM
Reminds me of an article I read last week or so.
A guy was sentenced to only two years after abusing the daughter of his girlfriend.
First time when she was eleven. She gave birth at twelve..
Second time she gave birth at thirteen or forteen.
He said he didn't know it was illegal......
This was in Holland btw, so there's no need to excuse yourself on behalf of a whole nation. It's everywhere.
We have some pretty disgusting pervs in Belgium too.
What stumps me is that the prosecutor got what he asked for....two and a half years, of which six months on probation.
Also it makes me wonder what kind of society we live in where an 11 year old can get pregnant/give birth without anyone asking questions. She ha to attend school, one would think......

Dutch article here (http://frontpage.fok.nl/news.fok?id=31922).

chalice
09-08-2003, 02:47 PM
Because their nature is not overtly violent these wretches become privileged in prison. To think that sending them to prison is a guarantee for corrective ambushes is wishful thinking. More often than not their case never makes the headlines and so the general populace never even get to know what they've got on their wing.

Because they are manipulative and macheivellian they are soon hoisted into low security holiday camps where they get off on parole every second weekend to do what ever abject deeds it is they do. Upon release they are relocated in a nice blank sheet somewhere in suburbia where they are pampered by bleeding hearts.
The public are constantly thwarted when they try to gain knowledge of their whereabouts and manacled with red tape.

When I say zero tolerance, I use the phrase to its superlative.
This growing tumor on society must be eradicated.
For this crime I don't think anyone deserves to live.

Yes, that may be a crusading kink I've got but I can sleep at night.

Gemby!
09-08-2003, 08:50 PM
The system should change - i dont see if it matters that this person will NEVER reoffend the fact is they have done this crime and should be punished for it .
Also bigboab was right when he said the guy will probably get a shorter sentance when he is in there
i do hope he gets in touch with his feminine side while he is in thier though...

Rat Faced
09-10-2003, 12:32 AM
Im quite liberal here.

Castrate 'em, then hand em over to a bunch of Ladies with blunt knives....im sure ive mentioned this before somewhere......

Evil Gemini
09-10-2003, 01:01 AM
This is fucking bull shit. This ass hole goes to Jail for only 5 years and the bloke that made that blast virus goes to jail for 10 years ??

how fucked up in the ass is that.

4play
09-10-2003, 01:05 AM
the judge who gave this sentence is being crucified in england. just about every newspaper is calling for his resignation.

there is a pertition going around as well to have this fella sacked and rightly so.

j2k4
09-10-2003, 01:50 PM
If something like this is meant by the legal system to be considered RIGHT, what could possibly be considered WRONG?

Another opportunity to be disgusted. :angry:

Biggles
09-10-2003, 04:51 PM
4play

I think you will find the judge in question is Scottish and has nothing to do with the English legal system.

I believe the judge in question sent someone down for life yesterday for a similar sort of thing. I may be wrong but I don't think this particular judge is known as a wishy washy liberal.

I am not going to comment on either sentences as I really don't know enough about what actually happened. The difficulty we have is that tabloid newspapers have over the last few years embarked on a crusade that is highly populist but somewhat weak on actually what needs to be done. The name and shame thing was a disaster with the wrong pictures and addresses resulting in innocent people fleeing from mobs.

By creating a huge moral panic they may in fact be endangering children's lives. The abuser taking the view "better dead than found in my bed".

However, the chances of actually having a rational debate about these issues with newspapers who on one hand rant about beasts and monsters and on the other print pictures of semi naked girls who are only 17 or 18 (in fact didn't one do a count down to a girl's 16th so they could legally show her naked) appear to be slim suggesting that we are going nowhere fast. (In the US they seem to have beauty pagents for toddlers - a concept which I find disturbing).

I would like to make it quite clear that I am making no case whatsoever on behalf of the individual who attacked the baby. His motivation and desires are utterly mysterious to me. My own recollections of when my kids were that age was that the contents of their nappies were never pleasant and to be avoided at all costs - (if I could come up with a plausible excuse so to do).

Human sexuality is, however, complicated and probably few people on this board waited until they were 16 to experiment (or whatever age is relevant in your own country). We cannot pretend that those under 16 do not have an interest in these matters. It does the debate no service to pretend otherwise.

The issues are being blurred and moral panics are ensuing over fairly innocuous liasons with say 17 year olds and 15 year olds. A 17 year old should not be placed on the sex offenders register because his girl friend is 15 (imho). We need to get a grip. There are those whose pleasure it is to abuse and hurt the vunerable (young and old). Clearly, it is those who are determined to attack and abuse for their own selfish pleasure that cannot be left to run loose in society. Some of these individuals are convinced that they are right to pursue this predatory lifestyle and will always be a danger. Hopefully the judge correctly identified that the individual before him was not one of those.

However, until we reach a stage where there is a climate where these individuals can safely say "I have a problem please help" we are not going to achieve much. The sheer scale of the task facing the police after one bust of one internet provider (still not even half way through three years later) whilst countless other providers have stepped in to rake in the profits, indicates the law and the judicial system do not have the resources to provide all the solutions. We need a change in the way we think and driving these people underground is not a good starting point.

I am sorry this has been so long. I don't claim to have all (or perhaps any) of the answers. I am also aware that some awful things have happened to children out there. I am just concerned that the whole debate is achieving little more than enough moral outrage to float the Hindenburg. I know this sounds idealistic, but our aim should be to achieve a society that both robust enough and sophisticated enough to understand, protect and care for all its members.

j2k4
09-10-2003, 06:16 PM
Biggles-

I, for one, thank you for the length of your post.

Well done. ;)

sabbath
09-10-2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by neattairoski@10 September 2003 - 03:01
This is fucking bull shit. This ass hole goes to Jail for only 5 years and the bloke that made that blast virus goes to jail for 10 years ??

how fucked up in the ass is that.
I guess that in today's world f*ckin' Bill Gates up in the ass is much more serious than raping a young girl, wouldn't you agree? :x

chev24grd
09-10-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by 4play@10 September 2003 - 02:05
the judge who gave this sentence is being crucified in england. just about every newspaper is calling for his resignation.

there is a pertition going around as well to have this fella sacked and rightly so.
Another example of an ultra liberal Judge. Got plenty of em here in the states. Bastards :angry:

clocker
09-10-2003, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by chev24grd@10 September 2003 - 13:53

Another example of an ultra liberal Judge. Got plenty of em here in the states. Bastards :angry:
Chev24grd,

What do you know about this judge which would lead you to conclude that he is "ultra liberal" as opposed to just a poor jurist?

Biggles
09-10-2003, 10:53 PM
J2K4

Thank you.

Isn't it great to have the board back. We have one at work but it is heavily moderated and has a monthly post limit. Consequently, many of the posts are carefully crafted to cover umpteen issues in one fell swoop. I get a guilty chill of wastefulness every time I post I one-liner on here.

I appreciate some prefer short pithy comments, but sometimes the more complex ideas and issues do lend themselves to a paragraph or two.

However, it looks like one or two skipped over it and went straight for... well I am not sure what really. :)

I recall reading in a Dilbert book a skit where MS mis-spell a word in their spell checker and simply tell Websters (I think being a US version of the Oxford) to change the official spelling. It is a foolish person indeed who messes with the supreme being. I just smile happily when the software crashes and phone up to ask if I can pay more money. (That last sentence was a lie - sorry :blink: )

Billy_Dean
09-11-2003, 09:06 AM
One thing to remember here is, unlike in England, this sentence can be appealed as being too lenient. I don't think we've heard the last of this case. I also believe another villain here is Dr Gary MacPherson, this man is willing to gamble on whether or not this piece of shit will re-offend. What does it matter, lock him up for life, fuck him, who cares?

Gooch2k
09-11-2003, 09:35 AM
I think we should have a new justice system for sick freaks like these! they should be locked away and be tortured over a long, long period of time, then sentenced to death. I know this sounds extreme and no person should be tortured, but in my view people who do this sort of thing cease to be people! It would be much more of a deterrent than the current "slapped wrist and sit in the corner" justice we have at the moment.

ilw
09-11-2003, 10:03 AM
Biggles as always you make a good and reasoned point, I agree that this is a case where the perpetrator clearly has mental problems and should be treated accordingly. That said the sentence given seems wrong no matter how you look at it. If its just 5 years in prison that does not act as a deterrent or retribution or most critically of all (IMO) rehabilitation. If the sentence had been 5 years in psychiatric care I could probably accept that.
Actually thinking about it does anyone know if paedophiles in prison go through any mandatory counselling / psychological help?

chalice
09-11-2003, 10:36 AM
I agree that Biggles's post was of a wider vista and all the more humbling for it.
I do know that paedophiles receive psyschiatric councelling in prison. It's usually one of the stipulations during sentencing. Whether or not they heed this help is a matter for them and the (often questionable) assessment of the counciller.

Often these ministrations take the form of group councilling.
And what happens if you group sociopaths together? You get a bunch of sociopaths who can draw on various sources to justify their abjectivity. You get cliques.
"Mommy didn't love me." weeps the wretch.
"Neither did mine, that's two things we have in common." replies his comrade, "Lets form a club. Here, try some of my perversions."

Just as the fledgling miscreant learns his trade in prison, so too does the paedophile. Prison is a place to reflect on your future. Yet is also a place to study the workings of a parallel code of thought. Art therapy, that's a laugh. What qualifies a psychologist to plumb the depths of a mind already distracted by where his next infant prey is coming from? What man can truly sound confident in saying, "My patient's baby raping days are over. Go with my blessing. You are healed."?

The only thing new about this practice is the (infinitely nausiating) treatment of it by the tabloids. Yet do we sweep it under the carpet? I don't think there's any room left under the carpet. I refer to the proliferation of the net. Often, I would guess, the unhinged mind encounters practices and philosophies ineptly justified by classical texts and irresponsible thinkers. Not to mention material of the basest level. Mercifully, this is not ancient Greece and information (rooted in blood bays or not) should be made available to us. Naming and shaming is wrong. It has been proven to clot together lynch-mobs. We do need to know what that casual neighbour is thinking, though, because this issue is not going away. It has carved its own growing niche in society and I for one have no desire to understand it. To try gives it credence.

I never thought I would have enjoyed reading a post on this subject but Biggles has proved me wrong.

j2k4
09-11-2003, 03:11 PM
Until we develop plastic surgery for the soul, I don't believe these types ought to be availed of the prospect of a second chance; its just too risky.

We may regret the ill-treatment they suffered during their formative years, and lament the necessity of locking them away, but we are left with no options.

Society does not owe them freedom in exchange for their past suffering.

DanB
09-11-2003, 06:29 PM
There are some really interesting and very thought provoking posts here. i must say being a lounge person normally i'm not really used to them like that!

Thanks Biggles & Chalice.

Biggles
09-11-2003, 09:19 PM
Gooch2K

Alas, I fear such regimes are not a good idea. It takes little to subvert them and before you know it the knock on the door in the middle of night is for you because you have said the wrong thing to the wrong person.

I have a view that what are considered to be liberal judicial systems (ie no death penalty etc.,) belong not in weak societies but rather in ones where those in power feel little threat from those below. It is no surprise that the EU, an area where collective bargaining coupled with a reasonably strong social cohesion and effective means of social control (a kind of benevolent Big Brother) feels safe in dispensing with rougher forms of justice.

The deterent effect of the latter is unproved. Often those countries with a somewhat sterner approach have higher rates of serious crime. This is neither caused by or detered by capital punishment. I believe the US still uses the death penalty precisely because in many ways it is a freer society. By that, I mean it is easier to disappear in the US and this sense of isolation from the collective (indeed amongst some in the US the very word would appear to be off-colour) causes concern at both the higher political level and in society in general. Capital punishment is therefore seen as a means to redress that lack of control. However, that is just a theory I have mulled over from time to time and am happy to modify or reject it if someone can throw further light on the issue.

Chalice

I agree - there needs to be a rethink in how we use prison. I am also wary of (but not against) the use of psychologists. A person who finds children sexually attractive cannot suddenly find them repellant. He may come to consider his actions unacceptable and like an alcholic know he must not go there again, but I think that is the best that can be hoped for.

A prison environment with other offenders is not the place to come to that point -especially if the individual as hitherto had little contact with like minded individuals. Locking up all offenders great and small and throwing away the key is neither practical nor affordable and should only be used for those who are a clear and continued danger. The prison system is already creaking under the strain of overuse.


Whether we can find a practical alternative approach is a moot point. Stepping back from demonisation might be a good start. In the past to be homosexual often incurred torture and the death penalty - all that happened was homosexuals learned to be very very careful.

However, any radical departure from the current approach would require considerable political courage - I won't hold my breath.

Just in case, I have not made my self clear I am not "soft" on this issue - I have teenage kids and the main complaint from my daughter is I am "over-protective". I certainly hope the judge has made a very careful assessment of the risks the individual concerned poses. As I said above, the same judge sentenced a similar case to life the other day because he was considered to be a continued long term threat.

Biggles
09-11-2003, 09:23 PM
J2K4

"Plastic surgery for the soul"! I suspect there may be a sci fi novel spawned from that gem. :D

loz
09-11-2003, 09:49 PM
Taylor, whose name was entered on the sex offenders' register, was held on remand in Barlinnie Prison, Glasgow, but is likely to serve his sentence at Peterhead jail, which has a specialist sex offenders' unit.

What you have to think about is what really caused this person to do such a thing, I do believe in 90% of the cases the offender was once a victim of sexual abuse.

In other words if you are raped/ abused as a child you are a lot more likely to abuse than someone who was not sexually abused.

yyiryyib
09-11-2003, 09:51 PM
he'll go in solitary cos he would get stabbed if he was with other prisoners. like that guy who tortured that little girl, he got a screwdriver in one of his eyes and he's been in solitary ever since

sum_sicko
09-11-2003, 09:55 PM
i hope he gets shot, stabbed hung drawn and quatered, sick fuckin bastard, he should get LIFE

j2k4
09-12-2003, 06:11 AM
I'm gonna play off my colleague Biggles' post here; I know good stuff when I see it. ;)

I have a view that what are considered to be liberal judicial systems (ie no death penalty etc.,) belong not in weak societies but rather in ones where those in power feel little threat from those below. It is no surprise that the EU, an area where collective bargaining coupled with a reasonably strong social cohesion and effective means of social control (a kind of benevolent Big Brother) feels safe in dispensing with rougher forms of justice.

This would seem to be a trend born of centuries of proximity; Europe is, I think, probably the largest contiguous geographic area whose peoples have shared a roughly similar existence and culture for many years-this has bred a cultural familiarity, and, to the extent religion(s) have played any role, it has been minor (for quite awhile) as opposed to the Middle-East, for example.

The deterent effect of the latter is unproved. Often those countries with a somewhat sterner approach have higher rates of serious crime. This is neither caused by or detered by capital punishment. I believe the US still uses the death penalty precisely because in many ways it is a freer society. By that, I mean it is easier to disappear in the US and this sense of isolation from the collective (indeed amongst some in the US the very word would appear to be off-colour) causes concern at both the higher political level and in society in general. Capital punishment is therefore seen as a means to redress that lack of control. However, that is just a theory I have mulled over from time to time and am happy to modify or reject it if someone can throw further light on the issue.

At it's root, the death penalty is a tool of societal vengeance for most who practice it; by putting an offender to death, society serves notice of it's contempt for the crime (and the criminal), on one hand, and also it's fear of allowing such individuals to continue to live, albeit behind bars, on the other.
I believe, from a purely punative point of view, that life-imprisonment (without parole, of course) is more effective vis `a vis the offender.

As an aside, I've always wondered how many people DON'T commit murder due to the existence of the death penalty?

I think it's propriety/popularity in the U.S. is engendered somehow by the freedoms we have here; society deigns that actions have consequences, no matter what you read on the front page or see on television.

Chalice

I agree - there needs to be a rethink in how we use prison. I am also wary of (but not against) the use of psychologists. A person who finds children sexually attractive cannot suddenly find them repellant. He may come to consider his actions unacceptable and like an alcholic know he must not go there again, but I think that is the best that can be hoped for.

I also agree; too much confidence is placed in rehabilitation, and the blanket of rights which SHOULD apply to, say, a drug user/abuser also, regretfully, covers child-molestrers and murderers.
That is not to say rehab should be restricted or removed, just that we shouldn't dispense legitimate candidacy for rehab "on demand".

A prison environment with other offenders is not the place to come to that point -especially if the individual as hitherto had little contact with like minded individuals. Locking up all offenders great and small and throwing away the key is neither practical nor affordable and should only be used for those who are a clear and continued danger. The prison system is already creaking under the strain of overuse.

Certainly "mass-storage" methods hinder rehabilitation; we have pure prison "capacity", but the system could benefit from a bit more specialization. Some "sub-division" would seem to be in order.


Whether we can find a practical alternative approach is a moot point. Stepping back from demonisation might be a good start. In the past to be homosexual often incurred torture and the death penalty - all that happened was homosexuals learned to be very very careful.

Anent drug users.

However, any radical departure from the current approach would require considerable political courage - I won't hold my breath.

Political courage? A dear commodity-haven't seen any in years.

Just in case, I have not made my self clear I am not "soft" on this issue - I have teenage kids and the main complaint from my daughter is I am "over-protective". I certainly hope the judge has made a very careful assessment of the risks the individual concerned poses. As I said above, the same judge sentenced a similar case to life the other day because he was considered to be a continued long term threat.

Not soft, Chalice; just thoughtful-another dear commodity.

EDIT: clarity

Biggles
09-14-2003, 12:32 AM
J2k4

Interesting,

I have often wondered why those who commit crime do so (apart from those driven by the desperation of say heroin addiction). The levels of crime do not vary proportionately with the punishment. Given the draconian laws of Saudi Arabia one would think that no one would steal anything, but the swordsman is busy every Friday lopping off bits of anatomy (some more crucial than others).

I think it was Emile Durkheim who wrote on the pathology of crime. He maintained that there was a normal level of criminal activity regardless of the penalties or ability of the police to solve crimes. Indeed he viewed crime as a means for society to identify its boundaries of normal behaviour. The more sedate the society the more petty the crimes that scandalise. So in a sleepy little town with no serious crime people will get bent out of shape about messy wheelie bins or whatever.

Above this is a casual element that will become involved if they think they really will get away with it. Although my boy racer days are long over, I confess I am less careful with the speed I travel at on the open road if I know there are no speed cameras than I am if they are watching- indeed, I am most circumspect under their baleful gaze. Yet there are always those who insist on doing 90 in second gear in a 30 zone (with a baseball cap on back to front) regardless of whether the entire traffic police traffic force is there or not. Stupid or pathologically criminal? or a bit of both?

Clearly, rational crime, that is sophisticated frauds which net millions of pounds or dollars are based on risk and reward. Presumably we don't know about the really good ones because they have never been discovered. However, acts of violence and murder frequently do not have a rational component - such as the tragic murder of the Swedish politician. They just seem to happen as a result of one individual snapping.

I guess we could genetically test for this pathological disorder but I suspect there might be as many behind bars as free. I fear we lack even mass storage capacity for prisons - I heard the other day that for 2002 our average daily prison capacity was exceeded by 12%. Quite where they put them I am not sure. This is, I am sure, a factor judges have to take into account when sentencing. Although there is complete separation of our legal and political system, judges are not divorced from the economic realities of the judicial and penal system.

The odd thing about societal revenge is that it is often demanded most by those who are unaffected by the crime. Those who are affected are often those most prepared to forgive. I saw an interesting interview on tv with a gentleman whose daughter had been killed in the Oklahoma bombing. It was an extemely touching conversation as he clearly still felt his loss deeply but was against the death penalty for the bomber. I suppose for the relatives of the victims the worst has happened - revenge at that point is fairly hollow.

A bit of a hotch potch this post. Trying to deal with Crime and Punishment is like putting a pint in a quart pot - that Russian chap ended up consuming half a forest as I recall. :)

imported_holte_-_ender
09-17-2003, 09:16 PM
Sick FUCK

Go to hell !!

Holte :ph34r: