If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?

[100%]

Ignas is getting his first baby, we had a heavy discussion about this.
He decided with his wife to not take an abortion. They took a scan last week, the child is fine.

It is possible to diagnose down syndrome at the first eccolog (scan) by looking at the shape of the spine.
To diagnose other malfunctions one needs to analyse the fluids which can cause miscarriage.

If you know that your future child is diagnosed with down syndrome would you abort it?
I say yes
but when the moment comes i have no clue what i would decide.

arguments i have heard for pro abortion


- unable to take care of itself
- does not develop
- will not reflect you :huh:
- first 6 years are fine then the difference shows
- survival of fittest


anti abortion views i have heard
- depends on the level
- life is life
- what is normal?

[S3v3N]

Depends on the gestational age , if it's <20 weeks abort because the child neurological pain pathways are not developed yet and will feel no pain, >20 weeks you are killing a feeling human , do not abort .
That's what they taught us in med school.

I voted no clue .

[bornwithnoname]

I voted to keep.

[j2k4]

Are we about to bark around the "when does life begin" tree again.

[The Flying Cow]

To answer your question Kev, it begins when the baby begins forming on yon ladie's belly.

[j2k4]

To answer your question Kev, it begins when the baby begins forming on yon ladie's belly.

Do you mean to say life begins at conception.

[anoneemuse]

this world is a pain in the butt for even normal people .. i wouldnt want that child to go through all the inevitable mental trauma that the society he will be bought upon will inflict on him/her ... its a sick sick world ....

abort and help him/her

[j2k4]

this world is a pain in the butt for even normal people .. i wouldnt want that child to go through all the inevitable mental trauma that the society he will be bought upon will inflict on him/her ... its a sick sick world ....

abort and help him/her

Do you have Down Syndrome?

How can you presume to know what it's like?

I have known numerous people so afflicted, and never got the idea from any of them that they would rather be dead.

The very idea that a life ought to be predicated on an uninterested observer's sense of it's worth is mighty offensive.

[pentomato]

It is not fair to anyone to bring a baby to this wolrd that is going to suffer so much. When the parents die what is next for the baby? living in a group home where they treat people like animals, yes I know I have seeing it first hand, I work with people with those conditions and it is not nice, it only create jobs, but people like that fall under the cracks.

[j2k4]

It is not fair to anyone to bring a baby to this wolrd that is going to suffer so much. When the parents die what is next for the baby? living in a group home where they treat people like animals, yes I know I have seeing it first hand, I work with people with those conditions and it is not nice, it only create jobs, but people like that fall under the cracks.

Fair?

By whose standards?

There are many people who live better lives than you or I; to which of them would you extend the authority to end your life because you are a "burden to others"?

It sounds like you've discovered the solution to African poverty. :dabs:

[anoneemuse]

this world is a pain in the butt for even normal people .. i wouldnt want that child to go through all the inevitable mental trauma that the society he will be bought upon will inflict on him/her ... its a sick sick world ....

abort and help him/her

Do you have Down Syndrome?

How can you presume to know what it's like?

I have known numerous people so afflicted, and never got the idea from any of them that they would rather be dead.

The very idea that a life ought to be predicated on an uninterested observer's sense of it's worth is mighty offensive.

everything i know now isnt what i have experienced in my own life .. so does it really matter if i have down syndrome or not to comment on what people with down syndrome might go through ?

its common sense + reading on the subject.. (oh dont go there :lol:, you might want to define reality too then )

i donno if you support mercy killing or not .. i see this in the same sense ...

[j2k4]

[
everything i know now isnt what i have experienced in my own life ..

So, then.

How would you know if what you thought was wrong.

[anoneemuse]

[
everything i know now isnt what i have experienced in my own life ..

So, then.

How would you know if what you thought was wrong.

you are now actually making me believe that you had down syndrome , otherwise how could you know much about it .. right ? :O

[bigboab]

It is not fair to anyone to bring a baby to this wolrd that is going to suffer so much. When the parents die what is next for the baby? living in a group home where they treat people like animals, yes I know I have seeing it first hand, I work with people with those conditions and it is not nice, it only create jobs, but people like that fall under the cracks.

Fair?

By whose standards?

There are many people who live better lives than you or I; to which of them would you extend the authority to end your life because you are a "burden to others"?

It sounds like you've discovered the solution to African poverty. :dabs:
I think China is finding the solution to poverty by limiting the size of families. Let's face it, someone has to do something.:(

As for the topic I would not comment unless I had the individual facts before me. Who is to say that they wont find a cure for all these congenital conditions. Subject to research approval.:)

[j2k4]

So, then.

How would you know if what you thought was wrong.

you are now actually making me believe that you had down syndrome , otherwise how could you know much about it .. right ? :O

Not at all.

Just pointing out the effrontery of your presumptive view, which is that some lives aren't worth living.

Who are you to say.

[anjelik]

I say yes,but depends on the age of foetus.Until 24 weeks of gestational age,you have permission to do abortion if the child is at danger.After 24 weeks later,at most of countries it is forbidden.

Anyway,I dont want to have a baby who has Down Syndrome.But this does not mean that all Down Syndrome babies dont desever to live.

[Snee]

- unable to take care of itself
Doesn't have to be true. The level of cognition and ability does, as I understand it, differ.

It's probable that the child will never be able to be as independent as someone considered normal, but then again there are plenty people who don't have Down's syndrome and still can't manage to take care of themselves.



- does not develop
In the same way, or as far, as you or I have.

Doesn't mean he or she can't grow up to have a tremendously enjoyable life.



- will not reflect you :huh:
Won't look like you or I, won't function like us, and won't be able to do everything we do.

But who cares? How often does a child turn out to be everything his or her parents might have wished?

And what's so fantastic about being just like us?



- first 6 years are fine then the difference shows
I guess.



- survival of fittest
If we start eliminating people on the basis of some percieved ideal of fitness we'll probably end up in a pretty boring world.

Besides, our societies are fairly enlightened ones, with social safety nets and whatnot. We don't live like animals, so shouldn't have to be bound by natural laws that don't have to apply the same way, anymore. The more advanced the civilisation, the more subjective what's fit to exist, I reckon.


And to round things up I'd like to point out that happiness often seems to be inversely proportional to intelligence. In some ways, I reckon that people with reduced mental capabilities, if you can call it that, may lead much better lives, as far as happiness and sense of fulfillment is concerned.

[bigboab]

Doesn't have to be true. The level of cognition and ability does, as I understand it, differ.

It's probable that the child will never be able to be as independent as someone considered normal, but then again there are plenty people who don't have Down's syndrome and still can't manage to take care of themselves.



- does not develop
In the same way, or as far, as you or I have.

Doesn't mean he or she can't grow up to have a tremendously enjoyable life.



- will not reflect you :huh:
Won't look like you or I, won't function like us, and won't be able to do everything we do.

But who cares? How often does a child turn out to be everything his or her parents might have wished?

And what's so fantastic about being just like us?



- first 6 years are fine then the difference shows
I guess.



- survival of fittest
If we start eliminating people on the basis of some percieved ideal of fitness we'll probably end up in a pretty boring world.

Besides, our societies are fairly enlightened ones, with social safety nets and whatnot. We don't live like animals, so shouldn't have to be bound by natural laws that don't have to apply the same way, anymore. The more advanced the civilisation, the more subjective what's fit to exist, I reckon.


And to round things up I'd like to point out that happiness often seems to be inversely proportional to intelligence. In some ways, I reckon that people with reduced mental capabilities, if you can call it that, may lead much better lives, as far as happiness and sense of fulfillment is concerned.

There was me thinking I had depression. Thanks Snny. I'll send you some pills.:whistling

Looking at what happens to disabled people in some parts of India tends to make you think twice. Almost everyone, me included, judge these events with their own societies values in mind. Would we change our minds if we include third world conditions?

[j2k4]

I say yes,but depends on the age of foetus.Until 24 weeks of gestational age,you have permission to do abortion if the child is at danger.After 24 weeks later,at most of countries it is forbidden.

Anyway,I dont want to have a baby who has Down Syndrome.But this does not mean that all Down Syndrome babies dont desever to live.

24 weeks, eh?

Where did they come up with that.

[MaxOverlord]

this world is a pain in the butt for even normal people .. i wouldnt want that child to go through all the inevitable mental trauma that the society he will be bought upon will inflict on him/her ... its a sick sick world ....

abort and help him/her

My head nearly imploded when I read that last line.

Abort and help him/her.

How's about helping him/her by letting them live in this world and experience the joy it can bring...and how about helping him/her by loving him/her because him/her is a human being of your creation.

[MaxOverlord]

Doesn't have to be true. The level of cognition and ability does, as I understand it, differ.

It's probable that the child will never be able to be as independent as someone considered normal, but then again there are plenty people who don't have Down's syndrome and still can't manage to take care of themselves.



- does not developIn the same way, or as far, as you or I have.

Doesn't mean he or she can't grow up to have a tremendously enjoyable life.



- will not reflect you :huh:Won't look like you or I, won't function like us, and won't be able to do everything we do.

But who cares? How often does a child turn out to be everything his or her parents might have wished?

And what's so fantastic about being just like us?



- first 6 years are fine then the difference showsI guess.



- survival of fittestIf we start eliminating people on the basis of some percieved ideal of fitness we'll probably end up in a pretty boring world.

Besides, our societies are fairly enlightened ones, with social safety nets and whatnot. We don't live like animals, so shouldn't have to be bound by natural laws that don't have to apply the same way, anymore. The more advanced the civilisation, the more subjective what's fit to exist, I reckon.


And to round things up I'd like to point out that happiness often seems to be inversely proportional to intelligence. In some ways, I reckon that people with reduced mental capabilities, if you can call it that, may lead much better lives, as far as happiness and sense of fulfillment is concerned.


Just to echo Snee on the survival of the fittest point. Genetic variation and variety is necessary to a healthy human species. Just look around.

[anoneemuse]

And to round things up I'd like to point out that happiness often seems to be inversely proportional to intelligence. In some ways, I reckon that people with reduced mental capabilities, if you can call it that, may lead much better lives, as far as happiness and sense of fulfillment is concerned.

i totally agree on that one . ignorance is bliss :mellow:

[Frizz]

I voted no clue as this decision is very individualized. As for my current rationale, don't abort the baby. Who am I to judge how satisfied the baby will be without giving it a chance?

[j2k4]

I voted no clue as this decision is very individualized. As for my current rationale, don't abort the baby. Who am I to judge how satisfied the baby will be without giving it a chance?

Problem being, the practice of individualism (and whatever compels it) is where problems arise.

The casting off of any constraint save absolute viability relieves us of any responsibility, you see.

Some of us like that, I guess...:huh:

[100%]

In the old days you simply got pregnant and had the baby, now you can analyse the blood, the liquid in the sack and do digital scans and even 3d scans.
In some way i think if you are going to get a present you should be happy with what you get. Being able to see into the future has its perks and its vices.

[MaxOverlord]

And to round things up I'd like to point out that happiness often seems to be inversely proportional to intelligence. In some ways, I reckon that people with reduced mental capabilities, if you can call it that, may lead much better lives, as far as happiness and sense of fulfillment is concerned.

i totally agree on that one . ignorance is bliss :mellow:


In other words they don't know whether they should be happy or not.

I think happiness has absolutely nothing to do with being intelligent or being unintelligent. It is a subjective thing as to each of our individual perceptions of reality at any given moment. Just as you may be happy right now I'm sure someone could convince you that you're really unhappy..given enough skill that is. How do you know you are happy?

[peat moss]

The few Down syndrome people I'v met seemed so alive and happy , eager to please . Wish my perfect children had inherited those qualities now that their older .

[pentomato]

It is not fair to anyone to bring a baby to this wolrd that is going to suffer so much. When the parents die what is next for the baby? living in a group home where they treat people like animals, yes I know I have seeing it first hand, I work with people with those conditions and it is not nice, it only create jobs, but people like that fall under the cracks.

Fair?

By whose standards?

There are many people who live better lives than you or I; to which of them would you extend the authority to end your life because you are a "burden to others"?

It sounds like you've discovered the solution to African poverty. :dabs:

The solution to African poverty?
What about the solution to to the american poverty?
If you are poor, you can make it better, if you are mentally retarded, your life will always be hell, there is nothing you can do about it.
Don't talk to me about standards, I work with people with mental retardation and their life has not sense.

[pentomato]

I voted no clue as this decision is very individualized. As for my current rationale, don't abort the baby. Who am I to judge how satisfied the baby will be without giving it a chance?

And do you think it is fair, those babies will be abondone and abused?
Those people end up in group homes where workers treat them like dirt, go to day programs where nobody gives a crap about them.
How satisfied will be a person that has no control over his/her life, where everything is been done for them, people that don't have any kind of freedom?
I don't think it is fair to bring a person like that to this world, when you know their life is going to be hell, how responsible is that?

[kallieb]

^^ The poster above makes some interesting points.

To answer the immediate question my opinion is... it depends/if it's not me, it's none of my business/if it is me, then I would make that decision at the time - with the baby's father, and we would have to look at what the baby needs, what we can give, and most importantly, what the Society we are in is able to give this child/youth/adult when the time comes (sometimes sooner than we want - as the fates so determine) that we or his/her family are not able to/unable to/not around to care anymore.

One measure of a Society is how it treats it's most vulnerable citizens. It is reckless to not consider to the extent that laws, services, mores/values are in place to provide daily ethical treatment of its handicapped members. Harsh and responsible answers must be considered to such things as: Are our group home/daily living services well staffed and managed enough to a reasonable extent that parents have some comfort that if something happens to them/their child/youth/adult who is handicapped and requires daily living assistance for the rest of his/her life will not be abused, shuffled around, mismanaged, forgotten. Are there enough services available to the child to allow him/her to flourish in nurturing schools, access to health care, family access to respite and other in-home services as needed.

I know I can love any child of mine. I have two already. But my life is not a guarantee. Our role as parents is to raise our children to an age of independence with enough built-in values and common sense to at least give more back to the world more than that what it gives, and not leave a trail of broken hearts and minds during the journey; because the natural order of things is that parents die before their children, and our progeny is left to manage the world on their own - independent of our daily care.

Parents of disabled children know damn well that they have a tough decision ahead of them - one that requires them to think beyond the love that they can give, and consider also that little corner of the world they are bringing their child in to has to offer as well.

With that said, some countries do a magnificent job of caring for its citizens from cradle to grave - with a few exceptions along the way - and as a result, the decision to bring a high-needs child into the world gives these parents one less worry to consider in their decision. On the other hand, there are some countries that have so many different levels of treatment, rights and privileges that even the healthiest and able-bodied find it a chore to get through in one piece.

Bottom line... it depends. My answer then is.. no clue.

[bigboab]

Good post.:)
I hope that in the future, with improved genetic knowledge, they will be able to warn people before conception. That would make everyones answer to this question having to be viewed from a different prospective.

[j2k4]

Fair?

By whose standards?

There are many people who live better lives than you or I; to which of them would you extend the authority to end your life because you are a "burden to others"?

It sounds like you've discovered the solution to African poverty. :dabs:

The solution to African poverty?
What about the solution to to the american poverty?
If you are poor, you can make it better, if you are mentally retarded, your life will always be hell, there is nothing you can do about it.
Don't talk to me about standards, I work with people with mental retardation and their life has not sense.



I voted no clue as this decision is very individualized. As for my current rationale, don't abort the baby. Who am I to judge how satisfied the baby will be without giving it a chance?

And do you think it is fair, those babies will be abondone and abused?
Those people end up in group homes where workers treat them like dirt, go to day programs where nobody gives a crap about them.
How satisfied will be a person that has no control over his/her life, where everything is been done for them, people that don't have any kind of freedom?
I don't think it is fair to bring a person like that to this world, when you know their life is going to be hell, how responsible is that?

Hell?

Compared to what?

So you think mentally/emotionally impaired people aren't equipped to properly appreciate life (as you define it) and so should be killed in the womb.

Way back when, I supervised three community-based ventures to accomodate an effort aimed at bringing many of these people out of state institutions and into group homes housing between six and twelve residents.

My work varied from writing policy to working directly with these people, whose disabilities ranged from severe to almost debilitating.

I and those I worked with dedicated ourselves to improving the lives of these people, and we observed the progress they made and the joy they experienced.

If you mean to say that you work in the field, and hold the attitude you do, perhaps you'd better look for another line of work.

[pentomato]

The solution to African poverty?
What about the solution to to the american poverty?
If you are poor, you can make it better, if you are mentally retarded, your life will always be hell, there is nothing you can do about it.
Don't talk to me about standards, I work with people with mental retardation and their life has not sense.



I voted no clue as this decision is very individualized. As for my current rationale, don't abort the baby. Who am I to judge how satisfied the baby will be without giving it a chance?

And do you think it is fair, those babies will be abondone and abused?
Those people end up in group homes where workers treat them like dirt, go to day programs where nobody gives a crap about them.
How satisfied will be a person that has no control over his/her life, where everything is been done for them, people that don't have any kind of freedom?
I don't think it is fair to bring a person like that to this world, when you know their life is going to be hell, how responsible is that?

Hell?

Compared to what?

So you think mentally/emotionally impaired people aren't equipped to properly appreciate life (as you define it) and so should be killed in the womb.

Way back when, I supervised three community-based ventures to accomodate an effort aimed at bringing many of these people out of state institutions and into group homes housing between six and twelve residents.

My work varied from writing policy to working directly with these people, whose disabilities ranged from severe to almost debilitating.

I and those I worked with dedicated ourselves to improving the lives of these people, and we observed the progress they made and the joy they experienced.

If you mean to say that you work in the field, and hold the attitude you do, perhaps you'd better look for another line of work.

Killing what in the womb? A malignant tumor is alive to, should we leave it alone because of a few alive cells? Who are you to play GOD?
Mentally/emotionally people feel, love like you and I, but they can't defend theirselves in the real world.
These people haven't made any progress, you call progress to 12 people living in a house, knowing they might be abused?
Living in a house for them, it is the samething that not living at all, the only difference between a hospital and those group homes is that jobs are been created now.
I hate it when you see a person that has been tied up for hours, (something illegal) when their lunch is a few pieces of bread and they don't have a way to fight for their rights, when they are been push around, when their wrists are burn from those ropes they use on them in those houses, when they are been physically hurt and they can't talk.
And you are telling me we have made progress with these people? Get down from your cloud, because the only progress here is job creation, these peoples rights are worst than have ever been.
And the feeling of talking to an investigator to end this people suffering is amazing, it is worthwhile.
Don't you preach to me about their living conditions, you have done a terrible job if you worked in this field, you forgot that they not only don't know their rights, but they can't understand and assimilate what's going on with them and why, and the saddest part is, they can't fight back.
So your reasoning to bring somebody to this world, to suffer and be abuse in theory is beautiful, but in reality people like you create the abuse they have to endure in the course of their lives and all for what? Abort or not your reasoning doesn't make any sense, change jobs because you haven't help these people at all.

[j2k4]

I voted no clue as this decision is very individualized. As for my current rationale, don't abort the baby. Who am I to judge how satisfied the baby will be without giving it a chance?

And do you think it is fair, those babies will be abondone and abused?
Those people end up in group homes where workers treat them like dirt, go to day programs where nobody gives a crap about them.
How satisfied will be a person that has no control over his/her life, where everything is been done for them, people that don't have any kind of freedom?
I don't think it is fair to bring a person like that to this world, when you know their life is going to be hell, how responsible is that?

Hell?

Compared to what?

So you think mentally/emotionally impaired people aren't equipped to properly appreciate life (as you define it) and so should be killed in the womb.

Way back when, I supervised three community-based ventures to accomodate an effort aimed at bringing many of these people out of state institutions and into group homes housing between six and twelve residents.

My work varied from writing policy to working directly with these people, whose disabilities ranged from severe to almost debilitating.

I and those I worked with dedicated ourselves to improving the lives of these people, and we observed the progress they made and the joy they experienced.

If you mean to say that you work in the field, and hold the attitude you do, perhaps you'd better look for another line of work.

Killing what in the womb? A malignant tumor is alive to, should we leave it alone because of a few alive cells? Who are you to play GOD?
Mentally/emotionally people feel, love like you and I, but they can't defend theirselves in the real world.
These people haven't made any progress, you call progress to 12 people living in a house, knowing they might be abused?
Living in a house for them, it is the samething that not living at all, the only difference between a hospital and those group homes is that jobs are been created now.
I hate it when you see a person that has been tied up for hours, (something illegal) when their lunch is a few pieces of bread and they don't have a way to fight for their rights, when they are been push around, when their wrists are burn from those ropes they use on them in those houses, when they are been physically hurt and they can't talk.
And you are telling me we have made progress with these people? Get down from your cloud, because the only progress here is job creation, these peoples rights are worst than have ever been.
And the feeling of talking to an investigator to end this people suffering is amazing, it is worthwhile.
Don't you preach to me about their living conditions, you have done a terrible job if you worked in this field, you forgot that they not only don't know their rights, but they can't understand and assimilate what's going on with them and why, and the saddest part is, they can't fight back.
So your reasoning to bring somebody to this world, to suffer and be abuse in theory is beautiful, but in reality people like you create the abuse they have to endure in the course of their lives and all for what? Abort or not your reasoning doesn't make any sense, change jobs because you haven't help these people at all.

So, then, as you say, better to kill them, right?

Tell me - why shouldn't they be killed postpartum?

Why shouldn't (by your own reasoning) mentally and emotionally impaired people be put out of their (your) misery?

[Snee]

Oh, and tell Ignas the cool part of the internets wishes him luck on the whole baby thing, Zed.

[Santa]

Ignas's kid is going to be a boy. Release date june.

The reason i asked this question is simply because i would like to read your thoughts on this, because....

2 weeks ago my wife and i went to do the scan, the embryo had not developed past 6 weeks. (no blood circulation(no vida) My wife was in her 11th week of pregnancy. The embryo was removed surgically.

Glad it happened early. But still all the mental and emotional preparation with a pregnancy and this to happen is absolutely tragic.

I will not delve on the emotional after effects of having a miscarriage.
But reading about everything that can go wrong in a pregnancy is not good for anything. Just causes worry. Problem is that they have found out so many things that can "prepare" you to have the perfectly developed child, for both men and women, the consequence is that you might end up blaming yourself...

anyway
It basically means more sex.

& Makes us love 50% even more.

[j2k4]

Oh, and tell Ignas the cool part of the internets wishes him luck on the whole baby thing, Zed.

My best wishes as well, and my sincerest apologies for going without thought in the direction this thread went.


Ignas's kid is going to be a boy. Release date june.

The reason i asked this question is simply because i would like to read your thoughts on this, because....

2 weeks ago my wife and i went to do the scan, the embryo had not developed past 6 weeks. (no blood circulation(no vida) My wife was in her 11th week of pregnancy. The embryo was removed surgically.

Glad it happened early. But still all the mental and emotional preparation with a pregnancy and this to happen is absolutely tragic.

I will not delve on the emotional after effects of having a miscarriage.
But reading about everything that can go wrong in a pregnancy is not good for anything. Just causes worry. Problem is that they have found out so many things that can "prepare" you to have the perfectly developed child, for both men and women, the consequence is that you might end up blaming yourself...

anyway
It basically means more sex.

& Makes us love 50% even more.

So sorry for your loss.

Never had to go though that; I think I'd have feared for my sanity.

[pentomato]

And do you think it is fair, those babies will be abondone and abused?
Those people end up in group homes where workers treat them like dirt, go to day programs where nobody gives a crap about them.
How satisfied will be a person that has no control over his/her life, where everything is been done for them, people that don't have any kind of freedom?
I don't think it is fair to bring a person like that to this world, when you know their life is going to be hell, how responsible is that?

Hell?

Compared to what?

So you think mentally/emotionally impaired people aren't equipped to properly appreciate life (as you define it) and so should be killed in the womb.

Way back when, I supervised three community-based ventures to accomodate an effort aimed at bringing many of these people out of state institutions and into group homes housing between six and twelve residents.

My work varied from writing policy to working directly with these people, whose disabilities ranged from severe to almost debilitating.

I and those I worked with dedicated ourselves to improving the lives of these people, and we observed the progress they made and the joy they experienced.

If you mean to say that you work in the field, and hold the attitude you do, perhaps you'd better look for another line of work.

Killing what in the womb? A malignant tumor is alive to, should we leave it alone because of a few alive cells? Who are you to play GOD?
Mentally/emotionally people feel, love like you and I, but they can't defend theirselves in the real world.
These people haven't made any progress, you call progress to 12 people living in a house, knowing they might be abused?
Living in a house for them, it is the samething that not living at all, the only difference between a hospital and those group homes is that jobs are been created now.
I hate it when you see a person that has been tied up for hours, (something illegal) when their lunch is a few pieces of bread and they don't have a way to fight for their rights, when they are been push around, when their wrists are burn from those ropes they use on them in those houses, when they are been physically hurt and they can't talk.
And you are telling me we have made progress with these people? Get down from your cloud, because the only progress here is job creation, these peoples rights are worst than have ever been.
And the feeling of talking to an investigator to end this people suffering is amazing, it is worthwhile.
Don't you preach to me about their living conditions, you have done a terrible job if you worked in this field, you forgot that they not only don't know their rights, but they can't understand and assimilate what's going on with them and why, and the saddest part is, they can't fight back.
So your reasoning to bring somebody to this world, to suffer and be abuse in theory is beautiful, but in reality people like you create the abuse they have to endure in the course of their lives and all for what? Abort or not your reasoning doesn't make any sense, change jobs because you haven't help these people at all.

So, then, as you say, better to kill them, right?

Tell me - why shouldn't they be killed postpartum?

Why shouldn't (by your own reasoning) mentally and emotionally impaired people be put out of their (your) misery?[/quote]

That way we woudln'd have a mentally retarded president in the White House again, eight years is enough.

[Santa]

Why is that whenever i go to the kindergarten to pick up my kid, and i see the one girl with Down i instantly feel pity?
Is that wrong?
Yes it is.
Could be a form of racist elitism. das uber mensk we are. We feel pity on those who do not have what we have, whether physically, socially, emotionally, financially. Sad form of judgement.
Our Judging of others is the issue here.

[j2k4]

Hell?

Compared to what?

So you think mentally/emotionally impaired people aren't equipped to properly appreciate life (as you define it) and so should be killed in the womb.

Way back when, I supervised three community-based ventures to accomodate an effort aimed at bringing many of these people out of state institutions and into group homes housing between six and twelve residents.

My work varied from writing policy to working directly with these people, whose disabilities ranged from severe to almost debilitating.

I and those I worked with dedicated ourselves to improving the lives of these people, and we observed the progress they made and the joy they experienced.

If you mean to say that you work in the field, and hold the attitude you do, perhaps you'd better look for another line of work.

Killing what in the womb? A malignant tumor is alive to, should we leave it alone because of a few alive cells? Who are you to play GOD?
Mentally/emotionally people feel, love like you and I, but they can't defend theirselves in the real world.
These people haven't made any progress, you call progress to 12 people living in a house, knowing they might be abused?
Living in a house for them, it is the samething that not living at all, the only difference between a hospital and those group homes is that jobs are been created now.
I hate it when you see a person that has been tied up for hours, (something illegal) when their lunch is a few pieces of bread and they don't have a way to fight for their rights, when they are been push around, when their wrists are burn from those ropes they use on them in those houses, when they are been physically hurt and they can't talk.
And you are telling me we have made progress with these people? Get down from your cloud, because the only progress here is job creation, these peoples rights are worst than have ever been.
And the feeling of talking to an investigator to end this people suffering is amazing, it is worthwhile.
Don't you preach to me about their living conditions, you have done a terrible job if you worked in this field, you forgot that they not only don't know their rights, but they can't understand and assimilate what's going on with them and why, and the saddest part is, they can't fight back.
So your reasoning to bring somebody to this world, to suffer and be abuse in theory is beautiful, but in reality people like you create the abuse they have to endure in the course of their lives and all for what? Abort or not your reasoning doesn't make any sense, change jobs because you haven't help these people at all.


So, then, as you say, better to kill them, right?

Tell me - why shouldn't they be killed postpartum?

Why shouldn't (by your own reasoning) mentally and emotionally impaired people be put out of their (your) misery?

That way we woudln'd have a mentally retarded president in the White House again, eight years is enough.


This is how your post should look.

Learn how to edit properly, dumbfuck.

You're not allowed to mix your unrelenting and unremitting idiocy with my postage.

If you can't do better than that, get your narrow ass back to the lounge. :mellow:

[pentomato]

Killing what in the womb? A malignant tumor is alive to, should we leave it alone because of a few alive cells? Who are you to play GOD?
Mentally/emotionally people feel, love like you and I, but they can't defend theirselves in the real world.
These people haven't made any progress, you call progress to 12 people living in a house, knowing they might be abused?
Living in a house for them, it is the samething that not living at all, the only difference between a hospital and those group homes is that jobs are been created now.
I hate it when you see a person that has been tied up for hours, (something illegal) when their lunch is a few pieces of bread and they don't have a way to fight for their rights, when they are been push around, when their wrists are burn from those ropes they use on them in those houses, when they are been physically hurt and they can't talk.
And you are telling me we have made progress with these people? Get down from your cloud, because the only progress here is job creation, these peoples rights are worst than have ever been.
And the feeling of talking to an investigator to end this people suffering is amazing, it is worthwhile.
Don't you preach to me about their living conditions, you have done a terrible job if you worked in this field, you forgot that they not only don't know their rights, but they can't understand and assimilate what's going on with them and why, and the saddest part is, they can't fight back.
So your reasoning to bring somebody to this world, to suffer and be abuse in theory is beautiful, but in reality people like you create the abuse they have to endure in the course of their lives and all for what? Abort or not your reasoning doesn't make any sense, change jobs because you haven't help these people at all.


So, then, as you say, better to kill them, right?

Tell me - why shouldn't they be killed postpartum?

Why shouldn't (by your own reasoning) mentally and emotionally impaired people be put out of their (your) misery?

That way we woudln'd have a mentally retarded president in the White House again, eight years is enough.


This is how your post should look.

Learn how to edit properly, dumbfuck.

You're not allowed to mix your unrelenting and unremitting idiocy with my postage.

If you can't do better than that, get your narrow ass back to the lounge. :mellow:

Why are you out of control Sir, Madam?
You seem to get angry very easy, it is a shame, you remind me of Papa Oreilly or whatever his name is.
Anyway, when you have to insult anyone, you are a lesser person, of what you actually were.
Just breath and relax, life is to short.

[j2k4]

Who is out of control?

Seems to me you're kinda sloppy, and I took note, that is all.

I didn't insult you, after all, you are a dumbfuck. :whistling

[pentomato]

Who is out of control?

Seems to me you're kinda sloppy, and I took note, that is all.

I didn't insult you, after all, you are a dumbfuck. :whistling

Prozac would do wonders to you, just relax, life goes on.

[j2k4]

Who is out of control?

Seems to me you're kinda sloppy, and I took note, that is all.

I didn't insult you, after all, you are a dumbfuck. :whistling

Prozac would do wonders to you, just relax, life goes on.

BIFF!!!


BAM!!!


ZOWIE!!!





Just cut the blue wire, dumbfuck. :whistling

[pentomato]

Prozac would do wonders to you, just relax, life goes on.

BIFF!!!


BAM!!!


ZOWIE!!!





Just cut the blue wire, dumbfuck. :whistling

Is dumbfuck the only word you know? It is time to learn some new one's, no wait, Bush doesn't learn either, he is dumb, it must be you are imitating him, lol lol
Go to the beach and make air castles plase.

[j2k4]

BIFF!!!


BAM!!!


ZOWIE!!!





Just cut the blue wire, dumbfuck. :whistling

Is dumbfuck the only word you know? It is time to learn some new one's, no wait, Bush doesn't learn either, he is dumb, it must be you are imitating him, lol lol
Go to the beach and make air castles plase.

Are you as smart as Bush, dumbfuck?

[kallieb]

When you consider the sorry state of the US economy, foreign affairs, domestic affairs, and so on of when he took power 8 years ago, to the time he is leaving, it would seem to me that President dumbfuck isn't the brightest shining bulb on the tree.

[Santa]

Ironic?
It seems that this thread has been hit with downs syndrome
"a lower than average cognitive ability, often ranging from mild to moderate developmental disabilities."

[MaxOverlord]

Ironic?
It seems that this thread has been hit with downs syndrome
"a lower than average cognitive ability, often ranging from mild to moderate developmental disabilities."


I'll echo that.

[cadaffi]

abort. And no I am not a cruel guy but it makes life for the parents much more difficult and for the child aswell. And I do not want to start about the when life starts....

Though I might say abort now, I do not know what I would REALLY do. This is my first opinion.

[nrfuller]

It's also a tremendous burden on the non developmentally disabled siblings, who usually wind up with the responsibility of taking care of their brother or sister once the parents pass. It's something potential parents need to take into account when wresting with this decision, because you're basically passing the responsibility onto your other children.

I'm not saying that should affect the decision one way or the other but it's something to consider.

[j2k4]

This is my first opinion.

:blink:

[pentomato]

It's also a tremendous burden on the non developmentally disabled siblings, who usually wind up with the responsibility of taking care of their brother or sister once the parents pass. It's something potential parents need to take into account when wresting with this decision, because you're basically passing the responsibility onto your other children.

I'm not saying that should affect the decision one way or the other but it's something to consider.

Here in the united states mentally retarded people are not a burden on any siblings, families do not want these people, so they go to group and private homes, where families supossely take care of these people for more than $2500 a month each person, group homes take more money than private homes, (they are a big burden on taxpayers). Mentally retarded people go to day programs to spend the day, they get back home, they give them some food and there they go to their locked rooms till the next day, most times they tie them up, (something illegal in my state)so they will not bother anyone in the house or if they get violent. Is that a way to live?
We should know by genetic tests if the person is going to be mentaly challenge, so women could terminate a life of missery to someone that never asked to come to this world.
It is funny that here in this forum and everywhere else, men are against abortion, controling women has to end, this fanatic conservatives it reminds me of Saudi Arabia, Iran, afganistan, where they control women too. Women should decide, after all men will never get pregant.
It is not fair that mentally retarded people come to this world, and they are abused over and over.
That tax money should be well expend in other places in the United States.

[j2k4]

It's also a tremendous burden on the non developmentally disabled siblings, who usually wind up with the responsibility of taking care of their brother or sister once the parents pass. It's something potential parents need to take into account when wresting with this decision, because you're basically passing the responsibility onto your other children.

I'm not saying that should affect the decision one way or the other but it's something to consider.

Here in the united states mentally retarded people are not a burden on any siblings, families do not want these people, so they go to group and private homes, where families supossely take care of these people for more than $2500 a month each person, group homes take more money than private homes, (they are a big burden on taxpayers). Mentally retarded people go to day programs to spend the day, they get back home, they give them some food and there they go to their locked rooms till the next day, most times they tie them up, (something illegal in my state)so they will not bother anyone in the house or if they get violent. Is that a way to live?
We should know by genetic tests if the person is going to be mentaly challenge, so women could terminate a life of missery to someone that never asked to come to this world.
It is funny that here in this forum and everywhere else, men are against abortion, controling women has to end, this fanatic conservatives it reminds me of Saudi Arabia, Iran, afganistan, where they control women too. Women should decide, after all men will never get pregant.
It is not fair that mentally retarded people come to this world, and they are abused over and over.
That tax money should be well expend in other places in the United States.


What a glittering jewel of ignorance.

If your misrepresentations even approached the norm, you would be living in such an institution.

[pentomato]

Here in the united states mentally retarded people are not a burden on any siblings, families do not want these people, so they go to group and private homes, where families supossely take care of these people for more than $2500 a month each person, group homes take more money than private homes, (they are a big burden on taxpayers). Mentally retarded people go to day programs to spend the day, they get back home, they give them some food and there they go to their locked rooms till the next day, most times they tie them up, (something illegal in my state)so they will not bother anyone in the house or if they get violent. Is that a way to live?
We should know by genetic tests if the person is going to be mentaly challenge, so women could terminate a life of missery to someone that never asked to come to this world.
It is funny that here in this forum and everywhere else, men are against abortion, controling women has to end, this fanatic conservatives it reminds me of Saudi Arabia, Iran, afganistan, where they control women too. Women should decide, after all men will never get pregant.
It is not fair that mentally retarded people come to this world, and they are abused over and over.
That tax money should be well expend in other places in the United States.


What a glittering jewel of ignorance.

If your misrepresentations even approached the norm, you would be living in such an institution.

Where is the ignorance in what I wrote?
Get down from luniland, because I think you are living in a dream.

[j2k4]

What a glittering jewel of ignorance.

If your misrepresentations even approached the norm, you would be living in such an institution.

Where is the ignorance in what I wrote?


That post is plated in 24K ignorance, dipped in idiocy, and served with a side order of stupid.

To actually parse the length and breadth of it's assininity would overload the server.

Luckily, even a retarded person could ascertain it's lack-o-sense. :whistling

[pentomato]

Where is the ignorance in what I wrote?


That post is plated in 24K ignorance, dipped in idiocy, and served with a side order of stupid.

To actually parse the length and breadth of it's assininity would overload the server.

Luckily, even a retarded person could ascertain it's lack-o-sense. :whistling

With insults you won't discredit me, prove me wrong, come on try.
It happens a lot with with fundamentalists when you don't have a valid argument, you attack the man itself.

[j2k4]

...the man itself.

There is something wrong with that phrase - can you guess what it is. :whistling

[pentomato]

...the man itself.

There is something wrong with that phrase - can you guess what it is. :whistling

Now you made me laugh. Anyway merry Christmas to you and yes I know what it is, thanks for correcting me I apreciate it.

[j2k4]

With insults you won't discredit me, prove me wrong, come on try.

I am loathe to even attempt to clarify that which is so flatly self-evident.

To do so would be presumptive, you see. :whistling

[1000possibleclaws]

If my partner had no input in the decision then I would definitely abort. I doubt I would be attached to a fetus that had a developmental problem enough to want to keep it and deal with the stress of raising the child. I am also pro-abortion if it's within a reasonable time after the pregnancy, which makes the decision easier and more straightforward.

In reality I wouldn't be 100% certain that we should choose this 'cause it wouldn't be solely my choice.

[Sanka113]

Honestly, I'd abort. Life can already suck for regular people. It'd only be magnified for them.

[Everose]

It's also a tremendous burden on the non developmentally disabled siblings, who usually wind up with the responsibility of taking care of their brother or sister once the parents pass. It's something potential parents need to take into account when wresting with this decision, because you're basically passing the responsibility onto your other children.

I'm not saying that should affect the decision one way or the other but it's something to consider.

Here in the united states mentally retarded people are not a burden on any siblings, families do not want these people, so they go to group and private homes, where families supossely take care of these people for more than $2500 a month each person, group homes take more money than private homes, (they are a big burden on taxpayers). Mentally retarded people go to day programs to spend the day, they get back home, they give them some food and there they go to their locked rooms till the next day, most times they tie them up, (something illegal in my state)so they will not bother anyone in the house or if they get violent. Is that a way to live?
We should know by genetic tests if the person is going to be mentaly challenge, so women could terminate a life of missery to someone that never asked to come to this world.
It is funny that here in this forum and everywhere else, men are against abortion, controling women has to end, this fanatic conservatives it reminds me of Saudi Arabia, Iran, afganistan, where they control women too. Women should decide, after all men will never get pregant.
It is not fair that mentally retarded people come to this world, and they are abused over and over.
That tax money should be well expend in other places in the United States.

To witness such abuse and not notify the authorities would be quite the load to carry.

I make it a habit to drop by the group home my step son is in at all times of day and if EVER I witnessed his or any other client's human rights being violated...........suffice it to say someone would have hell to pay.

And it is quite sadly twisted thinking, In my opinion, to assume families of mentally disabled children place them in group homes because they do not want them.

The hardest thing I ever did was to agree to place this young man in a group home as a young adult. But I knew it was the best for him in the long run to become independent of me and established in his own community. A community that he thrives in and has become very independent and vital and productive in.

I am very concerned about the conditions you describe in your place of employment and even more so that it is allowed to continue by those of you witnessing it and obviously remaining silent...basically allowing such conditions to continue.

The very, very least of the blessings this young man has brought into my life (and there have been so many blessings) is the ability to ascertain the state of the heart and soul of others when approached by him.

I realize that unless you have lived the blessings, the fear of what seems a horrendous task ahead would lead many to abort.

I would have to 'keep'.......because I have been there and it is worth it.

[pentomato]

Here in the united states mentally retarded people are not a burden on any siblings, families do not want these people, so they go to group and private homes, where families supossely take care of these people for more than $2500 a month each person, group homes take more money than private homes, (they are a big burden on taxpayers). Mentally retarded people go to day programs to spend the day, they get back home, they give them some food and there they go to their locked rooms till the next day, most times they tie them up, (something illegal in my state)so they will not bother anyone in the house or if they get violent. Is that a way to live?
We should know by genetic tests if the person is going to be mentaly challenge, so women could terminate a life of missery to someone that never asked to come to this world.
It is funny that here in this forum and everywhere else, men are against abortion, controling women has to end, this fanatic conservatives it reminds me of Saudi Arabia, Iran, afganistan, where they control women too. Women should decide, after all men will never get pregant.
It is not fair that mentally retarded people come to this world, and they are abused over and over.
That tax money should be well expend in other places in the United States.

To witness such abuse and not notify the authorities would be quite the load to carry.

I make it a habit to drop by the group home my step son is in at all times of day and if EVER I witnessed his or any other client's human rights being violated...........suffice it to say someone would have hell to pay.

And it is quite sadly twisted thinking, In my opinion, to assume families of mentally disabled children place them in group homes because they do not want them.

The hardest thing I ever did was to agree to place this young man in a group home as a young adult. But I knew it was the best for him in the long run to become independent of me and established in his own community. A community that he thrives in and has become very independent and vital and productive in.

I am very concerned about the conditions you describe in your place of employment and even more so that it is allowed to continue by those of you witnessing it and obviously remaining silent...basically allowing such conditions to continue.

The very, very least of the blessings this young man has brought into my life (and there have been so many blessings) is the ability to ascertain the state of the heart and soul of others when approached by him.

I realize that unless you have lived the blessings, the fear of what seems a horrendous task ahead would lead many to abort.

I would have to 'keep'.......because I have been there and it is worth it.

Who said I haven't done anything about it? but I did and I had to talk to investigators, anyway whatever comes out of that I may never know.
It is the same as old people and nursing homes, the elderly are a burden and they end up there.
I am not saying every family of the mentally retarded do not care, most times they can't care for them, because the disability is to much, and some of these people get out of control a lot.
In this city there are houndres of group homes around, and I hate when these people send them out without a coat in the winter and many more things, and yes I always do something about it.
I am glad you care.

[Everose]

I am glad you have stepped up then, and do your best to see others are treated as you yourself would like to be treated.

I don't know how lines can be drawn and as many have pointed out their are varying levels of disabilities.

I guess we all have only our own experiences with things to draw from.

When I am in a rest home I am sure to drive the workers crazy with my drag racing in my wheel chair in the halls. Don't be putting me down for that. ;-)

Remember any policies and laws you put into effect now will affect you also when you get there!!! :D

[pentomato]

Thank you very much, I will never be afraid of speaking out for those that need me, "Evil thrives when good people do nothing"
Been in a wheel chair or been old or mentally ill is not reason for anyone to abuse anyone, if those things bother anyone, they should not work doing those types of jobs, I know I will give them hell like around 30 more years lol.

[j2k4]

Thank you very much, I will never be afraid of speaking out for those that need me, "Evil thrives when good people do nothing"
Been in a wheel chair or been old or mentally ill is not reason for anyone to abuse anyone, if those things bother anyone, they should not work doing those types of jobs, I know I will give them hell like around 30 more years lol.

Now, was that so difficult?

My only point was if you feel the handicapped are being short-changed by the world they live in (but we control), then better to advocate (which I have done, and which you apparently are doing currently) in their favor than to abort them as a default stance.

Use your human capitol for something positive, you see?

Unless, of course, you are an absolutely horrible, uncreative, and inept advocate, in which case you have nothing to say to me, correct?

[pentomato]

Thank you very much, I will never be afraid of speaking out for those that need me, "Evil thrives when good people do nothing"
Been in a wheel chair or been old or mentally ill is not reason for anyone to abuse anyone, if those things bother anyone, they should not work doing those types of jobs, I know I will give them hell like around 30 more years lol.

Now, was that so difficult?

My only point was if you feel the handicapped are being short-changed by the world they live in (but we control), then better to advocate (which I have done, and which you apparently are doing currently) in their favor than to abort them as a default stance.

Use your human capitol for something positive, you see?

Unless, of course, you are an absolutely horrible, uncreative, and inept advocate, in which case you have nothing to say to me, correct?

Damn you j2k4 I was missing you man, how are you?
I know, to abort anyone it is a little extreme too, I know that.
If I was horrible my dear friend, I would not talk so much about the abuse, I prefer to go out of my way, putting my job in danger, but knowing that someone will be better because I did something about it.
Happy new year to you, I hope 2009 will be better than this one we are about to end.
Nice to see you again, happy new year.

[Brenya]

I chose abort because I'd first have a Pre-Implantation Genetic Diagnosis done on the embryo. The major chromosome-level genetic disorders (like Down Syndrome) can be identified, and in the embryo there are only a few cells, so I really don't understand any non-religious, non-monetary reason not to have this done.

[100%]

Breakthrough in Prenatal Screening for Down Syndrome (http://www.clubfemina.com/breakthrough-in-prenatal-screening-for-down-syndrome.html)

January 29th, 2009 by Femina
Lenetix Announces Successful Study of Improved Non-invasive Test Procedure
Lenetix, Inc. announced a significant step in the development of an improved first and second trimester non-invasive fetal chromosomal screening test to detect Down syndrome and other genetic fetal conditions. Lenetix presented preliminary study results at the 29th annual Society for Maternal-Fetal Medicine Conference in San Diego that indicate a potential breakthrough in testing quality and accuracy while preserving the safety of mother and fetus.
The maternal serum test developed by Lenetix medical director Dr. Stephen A. Brown at the University of Vermont incorporates the use of methylation-sensitive amplification (MSA) of fetal nucleic acid markers. In the preliminary studies, more than ten clinical plasma specimens of various ethnicities provided by clinical partners were tested with clinical partners using the MSA approach developed by Dr. Brown. Data from pilot studies indicate that highly accurate screening for common fetal autosomal (Trisomy 18, 21) and sex chromosomal (47, XXY) chromosome abnormalities is feasible, particularly in the first trimester of pregnancy when MSA features of early pregnancy-derived cells can be leveraged. This approach affords diagnostic confirmation by CVS, an invasive first trimester procedure, or genetic amniocentesis in the early 2nd trimester.
"The technique described by Dr. Brown and his team at Lenetix will create a revolution in prenatal diagnosis," said study investigator Allan Fisher, M.D., FACOG, FACMG. "This testing will ultimately decrease the number of amniocenteses, and thus reduce the number of miscarriages caused by amniocenteses. It will also help us identify patients who will need an amniocentesis or CVS where we may have missed them before. A better test that produces fewer false positives and negatives drives better patient care, and that's exciting for the future."
"Our preliminary results are extraordinarily encouraging, and complement nicely the work of other investigators whose efforts have focused heretofore in the 2nd trimester," said Lenetix president and CEO Leonard H. Kellner. "Such breakthroughs in improvements of current maternal serum screening for fetal aneuploidy, including fetal Down syndrome, will lead to better quality of screening and most certainly will result in less unnecessary, invasive diagnostic testing."
Source: Lenetix, Inc.

[j2k4]

Breakthrough in Prenatal Screening for Down Syndrome (http://www.clubfemina.com/breakthrough-in-prenatal-screening-for-down-syndrome.html)

January 29th, 2009 by Femina
Lenetix Announces Successful Study of Improved Non-invasive Test Procedure
Lenetix, Inc. announced a significant step in the development of an improved first and second trimester non-invasive fetal chromosomal screening test to detect Down syndrome and other genetic fetal conditions. Lenetix presented preliminary study results at the 29th annual Society for Maternal-Fetal Medicine Conference in San Diego that indicate a potential breakthrough in testing quality and accuracy while preserving the safety of mother and fetus.
The maternal serum test developed by Lenetix medical director Dr. Stephen A. Brown at the University of Vermont incorporates the use of methylation-sensitive amplification (MSA) of fetal nucleic acid markers. In the preliminary studies, more than ten clinical plasma specimens of various ethnicities provided by clinical partners were tested with clinical partners using the MSA approach developed by Dr. Brown. Data from pilot studies indicate that highly accurate screening for common fetal autosomal (Trisomy 18, 21) and sex chromosomal (47, XXY) chromosome abnormalities is feasible, particularly in the first trimester of pregnancy when MSA features of early pregnancy-derived cells can be leveraged. This approach affords diagnostic confirmation by CVS, an invasive first trimester procedure, or genetic amniocentesis in the early 2nd trimester.
"The technique described by Dr. Brown and his team at Lenetix will create a revolution in prenatal diagnosis," said study investigator Allan Fisher, M.D., FACOG, FACMG. "This testing will ultimately decrease the number of amniocenteses, and thus reduce the number of miscarriages caused by amniocenteses. It will also help us identify patients who will need an amniocentesis or CVS where we may have missed them before. A better test that produces fewer false positives and negatives drives better patient care, and that's exciting for the future."
"Our preliminary results are extraordinarily encouraging, and complement nicely the work of other investigators whose efforts have focused heretofore in the 2nd trimester," said Lenetix president and CEO Leonard H. Kellner. "Such breakthroughs in improvements of current maternal serum screening for fetal aneuploidy, including fetal Down syndrome, will lead to better quality of screening and most certainly will result in less unnecessary, invasive diagnostic testing."
Source: Lenetix, Inc.

Sounds like a fait accompli, huh?

I guess I'd choose that over the "partial-birth" option...no, wait - the first one...no, the second one...oh, that's right: They're both "health choices".

[100%]

Indeed
it ends with the same question.

[j2k4]

Indeed
it ends with the same question.

How to answer that question, then.

[Rat Faced]

Ignas is getting his first baby, we had a heavy discussion about this.
He decided with his wife to not take an abortion. They took a scan last week, the child is fine.

It is possible to diagnose down syndrome at the first eccolog (scan) by looking at the shape of the spine.
To diagnose other malfunctions one needs to analyse the fluids which can cause miscarriage.

If you know that your future child is diagnosed with down syndrome would you abort it?
I say yes
but when the moment comes i have no clue what i would decide.

arguments i have heard for pro abortion


- unable to take care of itself
- does not develop
- will not reflect you :huh:
- first 6 years are fine then the difference shows
- survival of fittest


anti abortion views i have heard
- depends on the level
- life is life
- what is normal?

I know someone with Downs Syndrome that has his own flat, a job and appears to have quite a good life.

Wonder what he'd think of this Poll?








Actually, has he got Downs Syndrome or is he just a Mackum, can be difficult to tell sometimes.

[The Flying Cow]

Who deleted my post?

One can't say one's opinion, with bitter sarcasm, about the issue?

Dry pin-heads...

[100%]

Indeed
it ends with the same question.

How to answer that question, then.

You bastard! dare to ask me this question... :P

So yes even if you can predict your offspring's "failures" to put in the future tense.

Depending on what failure means in the future.

The answer to your question is,

Is the child sustainable.







edit: this answer is wrong but right.
.

[j2k4]

How to answer that question, then.

You bastard! dare to ask me this question... :P

So yes even if you can predict your offspring's "failures" to put in the future tense.

Depending on what failure means in the future.

The answer to your question is,

Is the child sustainable.







edit: this answer is wrong but right.
.

You called me a bastard.

Now, that's ironic.

[pentomato]

You bastard! dare to ask me this question... :P

So yes even if you can predict your offspring's "failures" to put in the future tense.

Depending on what failure means in the future.

The answer to your question is,

Is the child sustainable.







edit: this answer is wrong but right.
.

You called me a bastard.

Now, that's ironic.

Somebody had to say it lol lol

[walkman79]

I voted to abort. But down syndrome is not the only genetical disorder, life for a person with down syndrome and his parents is very difficult but they are really harmless and some of them integrates themselves to society very well. There are actually other genetical disorders that science can't predict before birth, like mentall illness, psychopath, etc.

[Col. Skillz]

I say abort, but it would be much different and harder to let go if the situation ever arose, especially for the woman.

[kaiser2011]

i wud say abort
yeah surely they will adapt, but its hard to adapt and not everyone does.
you hear stories of of someone with a disease well adapted, but that is not the case for everyone. no evry community helps each kid with such a disabilty to adapt well. not all parents have the capability or resources for this.
if the parent think they can take care of him/her. provide enough for him/her to make him/her feel comfortable. which has to be thorough out the life. then i guess they can go on without aborting

but in todays life, i doubt it. personally for me, if i have a kid as such without knowingm ofcourse i will try my best to take care of him although i know it will be aa hard strain on me.
if i get to know before then abortion will be highly on my mind.

but then again it depends on the people it self.

[Rat Faced]

Looking at the results so far, I'm really glad its ultimately the ladies decision.

When I was young (19), my girlfriend fell pregnant and decided to abort. 25 years later I still often wonder what (s)he would have turned out like.

It's not as cut and dried as most people think.