Is It Safe To Hook Up A Hub With A Router?

[james_bond_rulez]

Hi guys I wanted to hook up my network so that my adsl modem hooks up to the upload of the hub first then connect another cable to the upload of my router.

It doesn't say if it is safe to do so in the manual but I need this setup to take advantage of the speed of my hub and the security of my router.

anyone done this?

[balamm]

Speed of your hub? Nothing is going to make your router faster. A hub is for connecting multiple computers or adapters to one modem. A router can do that but it's more about security. Neither one will enhance the way the other works and having both without the need would actually just increase line loss and noise.

[james_bond_rulez]

actually i found that weird today, Telus was so slow today that I thought there is something wrong with my router. because I am downloading stuff and browsing the internet and i found out that when I am downloading I can't surf at all with my new router.

I am not trying to "speed' up anything, Telus provides 2 ip addresses and my router only takes up 1. so I wanted to have the router take a connection from the hub and my primary computer take up the other one, to see things would be better. But I have not had a connection setup like this before.

[lynx]

It doesn't make sense to do it in that order unless some devices have direct internet addresses (which seems unlikely). Otherwise, the order has to be modem-router-hub. It doesn't affect the speed of your internet access one bit, since the limiting factor is the speed of your modem.

Btw, it would be quite safe to do it electrically.

Edit: Now that I've seen your last post, it seems that you have the bit which I thought was unlikely.

[james_bond_rulez]

Originally posted by lynx@13 September 2003 - 10:14
It doesn't make sense to do it in that order unless some devices have direct internet addresses (which seems unlikely). Otherwise, the order has to be modem-router-hub. It doesn't affect the speed of your internet access one bit, since the limiting factor is the speed of your modem.

Btw, it would be quite safe to do it electrically.
I would beg to differ.

If you have a connection out of the router then connect it to the uplink of the hub then your speed would be limited by the number of users on the router.

If you do it backwards, connect the modem to the hub first, then hub to router, then my primary computer to to hub, my primary computer's speed wouldn't be limited by the router, given that no one is using the router :D

got it? hehehe

[james_bond_rulez]

ok I have just unplugged my primary computer from the router and connect it to the hub.

I find the speed is much faster than it had connected to the router b4

strange....

[balamm]

Telus told you they supply 2 IP's did they? ;) try all you want. As many network addresses as you connect, DHCP will asign IP's for them and there's nothin telus can do about it. I went through this with shaw as well. Sure they'll sell you extra IP's for your single adaptor at $9.95 a month. What good does that do aside from giving you the option of confusing an attacker that the ISP will not take to task? I prefer to purchase ethernet cards at about $10 and install as many as my mother board will hold and rotate them at my convenience.

In your case, you don't need multiple IP's. Your router will take care of that. What you should be concerned with is the max ratings. Is it 10mb rated or 2mb? Are you using the proper crossover cable or just a cat5 cable?

[lynx]

What sort of router is it? It shouldn't prevent you from browsing while you are downloading. Sounds like it is giving priority to existing connections. This is not normal behaviour for a router. I'm just interested so that I know to stay away from that model.

[james_bond_rulez]

Originally posted by balamm@13 September 2003 - 10:30
Telus told you they supply 2 IP's did they? ;) try all you want. As many network addresses as you connect, DHCP will asign IP's for them and there's nothin telus can do about it. I went through this with shaw as well. Sure they'll sell you extra IP's for your single adaptor at $9.95 a month. What good does that do aside from giving you the option of confusing an attacker that the ISP will not take to task? I prefer to purchase ethernet cards at about $10 and install as many as my mother board will hold and rotate them at my convenience.

In your case, you don't need multiple IP's. Your router will take care of that. What you should be concerned with is the max ratings. Is it 10mb rated or 2mb? Are you using the proper crossover cable or just a cat5 cable?
ok that's a good question, although i dont know the types of cables, but from my observation I am using cables with full metal strips in the plastic casing for uplinks

and 4 metal strips for computer connections, but i believe they are all RJ45 cables

as for IPs, telus will only let you register 2 mac addresses on their website, i dont see how more than 2 ethernet cards can connect to the same account at the same time (or you have 2 different cards with the same mac address) :D

I know you can pull that off with shaw, but not with Telus

[james_bond_rulez]

Originally posted by lynx@13 September 2003 - 10:34
What sort of router is it? It shouldn't prevent you from browsing while you are downloading. Sounds like it is giving priority to existing connections. This is not normal behaviour for a router. I'm just interested so that I know to stay away from that model.
my router is Dlink DI-614+ b model with one anntana. supposed to be good but I found it slow when I use emule or kazaa AND browsing at the same time. I dunno if it is isp's problem, but I get much faster connection speed with a hub.

[balamm]

You don't have to register anything. You're on broadband right? Or adsl, same thing.
Your modem handles the traffic. Your computer negotiates the IP's asigned through DHCP and renews leases. Otherwise, you'd be having to renew manually every few days at least. It should be only the modem that is initially registered to the account. That's the only thing they need to direct connections to you.

[lynx]

If you get faster connection without going through the router, then the router is obviously slowing things down. I've never liked D-Link stuff, no real reason why, but it has always seemed a little 'tacky' somehow. Looks like you've provided a real reason to stay clear.

As for number of IP addresses, I don't know whether telus can limit the number of concurrent addresses you are using or not, but you can be certain they can tell how many you are using, and if it is more than they have said you can have they will probably charge you for the extra ones.

[james_bond_rulez]

Originally posted by balamm@13 September 2003 - 10:43
You don't have to register anything. You're on broadband right? Or adsl, same thing.
Your modem handles the traffic. Your computer negotiates the IP's asigned through DHCP and renews leases. Otherwise, you'd be having to renew manually every few days at least. It should be only the modem that is initially registered to the account. That's the only thing they need to direct connections to you.
I am not sure i understand you

by with telus this is how it works. first you buy the modem, no regitration of anything, you subscribe to telus that you want adsl. Telus provides your telephone with adsl signal. you then hook up the modem to the computer whose ethernet card has been previously registered on the telus website (the mac address on the card). then you renew the ip and the telus DHCP server assigns your card with an ip address.

if your card's mac address is different than that you registered, you wont get an ip.

[james_bond_rulez]

Originally posted by lynx@13 September 2003 - 10:46
If you get faster connection without going through the router, then the router is obviously slowing things down. I've never liked D-Link stuff, no real reason why, but it has always seemed a little 'tacky' somehow. Looks like you've provided a real reason to stay clear.

As for number of IP addresses, I don't know whether telus can limit the number of concurrent addresses you are using or not, but you can be certain they can tell how many you are using, and if it is more than they have said you can have they will probably charge you for the extra ones.
yeah i am still testing my router I just bought this yesterday.

I dunno if it is router's fault because Telus is having a real slow down today. so i might try it for a few more days.

[balamm]

Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@13 September 2003 - 03:47


if your card's mac address is different than that you registered, you wont get an ip.
So how does your router connect then? It has it's own MAC. If what you say is true, then telus doesn't use DHCP and I haven't found that to be the case. That would be an extreme inconvenience.

@lynx,
I use SMAC and rotate my ethernet cards regularly. Not a thing they can do about that. I could have 100 IP's in one week this way. They can only charge me for my physical service as it is their configuration that allows this.
And I aint complaining lol

[balamm]

To add to this, a program like virtual PC or VMware would be useless on the telus network without DHCP unless you were forced to use NAT. I can't buy that.

[james_bond_rulez]

Originally posted by balamm+13 September 2003 - 10:59--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (balamm @ 13 September 2003 - 10:59)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-james_bond_rulez@13 September 2003 - 03:47


if your card&#39;s mac address is different than that you registered, you wont get an ip.
So how does your router connect then? It has it&#39;s own MAC. If what you say is true, then telus doesn&#39;t use DHCP and I haven&#39;t found that to be the case. That would be an extreme inconvenience.

@lynx,
I use SMAC and rotate my ethernet cards regularly. Not a thing they can do about that. I could have 100 IP&#39;s in one week this way. They can only charge me for my physical service as it is their configuration that allows this.
And I aint complaining lol [/b][/quote]
another good question

my rounter uses virtual mac address, or clone mac (copies the mac off of your card), you can enter whatever crap you want into the router, as long as it is the same as the one you registered with Telus , the router will get a public ip address.

BTW, what&#39;s SMAC?? lol

[james_bond_rulez]

Originally posted by balamm@13 September 2003 - 11:02
To add to this, a program like virtual PC or VMware would be useless on the telus network without DHCP unless you were forced to use NAT. I can&#39;t buy that.
i thought telus uses DHCP servers?

otherwise we have to manually configure the gateways and the submasks??

[james_bond_rulez]

ok i think it&#39;s my isp&#39;s fault.

I just connected my pc back to my router and i am uploading and downloadind and browsing the net ok

but i still found it to be a little slow than hub, prob becuase all the translations and firewalls inside the router. I am no expert at this but this is what i figured...

[balamm]

SMAC is a program that allows you to change the software MAC address of your network adaptor to pretty much give you the IP you want when you want. It&#39;s guess work for the most part and you might have to apply and release a lot of MAC addressess to get the right IP, If it hasn&#39;t aleady been assigned. It also has the benefit of multiple IP&#39;s instead of changing cards. If I find I&#39;m being flooded after using emule or something, I just release and change MAC and a new IP is assigned.

On that router and hub, I checked into this one time before and was told that it should be cat5 to the device and then rj45 to the modem. That plus the fact that wireless is generally not rated as high as wired might be the reason for the slow net.

[james_bond_rulez]

Originally posted by balamm@13 September 2003 - 11:22
On that router and hub, I checked into this one time before and was told that it should be cat5 to the device and then rj45 to the modem. That plus the fact that wireless is generally not rated as high as wired might be the reason for the slow net.
could you be a little more specific?

cat5 from modem to router then rj45 to computers?

a little confused :D

[balamm]

No, Cat5 from the computer(adapter) to the modem. Then rj45 from the modem to the router. I don&#39;t know why exactly but this was the cofiguration I found at linksys and a few other sites when I was looking into linksys problems.

[Livy]

also try upgrading your routers firmware, or look at the updates se ewht they changed, and also make sure your router has a registered mac address.

isnt rj45 and cat5 the same thing really, as cat5 refers to the cable type, and rj45 are the plugs?

[lynx]

If you give your router the same mac address as the netword card in your pc, things are going to get very confused, with messages apparently from/to one source/destination while in fact there are two. If these devices are on the network at the same time, you can certainly expect big problems.

@balamm: I understood what you meant about changing mac addresses to force a new ip address, but I was talking about concurrent use of ip addresses, not concurrent assignment of them. Some isp&#39;s know that you can only get so much down the line so they don&#39;t really care how many devices you connect up at your side of the modem, others say they have provided a line for connection of 1 pc only. Personally I think the latter are very short sighted, I would never accept a contract like that so they would never get my business, but even so there are ways round it.

[balamm]

I do use 5 - 10 IP&#39;s simultaneously though. I have god only knows how many virtual machines plus my server with 3 or more active IP&#39;s, and several other PC&#39;s plus whatever I&#39;m servicing at the time. Not a thing they can do about it. They have a major surplus of IP&#39;s anyway. Their only concern has been when I uploaded 90 gig one month lol

@Livy, The rj45 is a crossover cable and the cat5 is not as I understand it. The rj45 is needed to network printers and such.

[Livy]

im sure the cat5 refers to the type of cable used, e.g cat5e cat6 etc, and rj-45 is the plugs, like rj-11, modem plugs,
a crossover cable can be made from a patch cable, so they will be the same wire.
http://yoda.uvi.edu/InfoTech/rj45.htm

[balamm]

I think you may be right but the connections in the connector module sometimes need to be crossed according to this from the linksys site. I couldn&#39;t find the networked printer article I went on before but there&#39;s a brief mention of it here for use with hub to hub connections.

Maybe it was strictly a lan thing.



PC-to-Hub connections. When connecting a PC to a hub, make sure that your RJ-45 cabling is straight-through. Pins 1, 2, 3, and 6 at the PC should line up pin-for-pin at the hub. And if the cabling is used with Fast Ethernet network segment, make sure it is Category 5 for best results. For more information about cabling, see our cabling guide.
Hub-to-Hub connections. When connecting two hubs together with RJ-45 cabling, be sure that the cabling is crossed over (if neither hub has an Uplink Port that can be utilized). Pins 1, 2, 3 and 6 at hub "A" should line up with pins 3, 6, 1, and 2 at hub "B", respectively. For more information about cabling, see our cabling guide.
10Mb Hub VS. 100Mb Hub. A 10Mb hub can&#39;t communicate with a 100Mb hub unless a switch or auto-sensing hub is used to translate the packets between the two speeds. Linksys Switches and Auto-Sensing hubs allow 10Mb and 100Mb to communicate with each other.

[Livy]

yeah, i knew abou the dif pins for crossovers.

http://www.linksys.com/tech_helper/cabling.html

[Somebody1234]

Cat5 cable is the cable rating. I can be crossover or straight. RJ-45 is those clear plastic plugs at the end of the cables.

The phone line connects to the modem, the modem connects to the router then each computer is connected to the router.

If your router has an &#39;uplink&#39; socket then you can plug in a hub there but only do this if you need to connect more computers than your router allows directly (most allow 4).

Now, for the IP and DHCP. The router acts like a computer. When you connect it to the modem you have an external IP. All the internal network computers get IPs assigned to them from the router via DHCP. Your ISP doesn&#39;t see those intenal IPs. So in effect you don&#39;t need 2 IP from your ISP.

[james_bond_rulez]

Originally posted by Somebody1234@13 September 2003 - 14:28
Cat5 cable is the cable rating. I can be crossover or straight. RJ-45 is those clear plastic plugs at the end of the cables.

The phone line connects to the modem, the modem connects to the router then each computer is connected to the router.

If your router has an &#39;uplink&#39; socket then you can plug in a hub there but only do this if you need to connect more computers than your router allows directly (most allow 4).

Now, for the IP and DHCP. The router acts like a computer. When you connect it to the modem you have an external IP. All the internal network computers get IPs assigned to them from the router via DHCP. Your ISP doesn&#39;t see those intenal IPs. So in effect you don&#39;t need 2 IP from your ISP.
mmm interesting.

now reguarding the cable issue. I find that the cable coming out of my modem connecting to my hub or my router is a cat5 cable (the one with a lot of metal strips in plastic casing), but my computers connect to hub/router with the one with 4 metal strips casing.

how does this affect my network I have no idea. but i guess the cat5 cable is faster because it has more metal strips in the cable?

[Somebody1234]

Can you not see the cable rating printed on the cable itself?

[james_bond_rulez]

no, it&#39;s got serial codes and monbo jonbo on it. but on my cat5 cable it clearlly says cat 5

[lynx]

Network cabling normally has 8 connectors (4 pairs), but only 4 of them (2 pairs) are used for data transmission. The other two pairs were sometimes used for noise elimination (one pair at each end) but I don&#39;t think any of the more recent network cards bother. So you can get away with cable with only 2 pairs, which in high volumes reduces costs.

Cat 5 is actually the rating of the cable (250MHz up to 100m), it does not directly affect the speed of transmission. The network would still run at 100MHz even if you used lower quality cable. However, it does affect signal quality, so if you get signal loss, this could cause errors and therefore repeated transmissions, which would slow the network.

Edit: I believe the network cable has to have all 4 pairs to be elligible for cat5 classification, so your 4 wire cable can&#39;t get cat5, but that doesn&#39;t necessarilly mean that it is poorer quality.

Edit: typo

[james_bond_rulez]

ok i got it thx guys for the help