This 33-year-old woman...

[j2k4]

...is reportedly not married, has no job, no prospects, and lives with her parents.

What she has, mostly, is children.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28940033/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

What do you think?

[Rat Faced]

Well, if you have a system that rewards people for being single parents and having lots of kids.. Then Human Nature says that some people will go after those rewards.

Of course, maybe she just likes being pregnant... :)

[j2k4]

How would your socialist system regard her predilection, I wonder.

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

I can see her now cashing her welfare checks demanding her reparations money cause the government has never done anything for her.

[bornwithnoname]

I can see her now cashing her welfare checks demanding her reparations money cause the government has never done anything for her.

I can see this too. I do not have problem helping some one who has fallen hard times. It happens to every one. Its the people who expect the Fed to take care of them

[Aucto]

Which is why evolution grinds to a abrupt halt and reverses direction whenever civilization dawns.

[devilsadvocate]

I really don't think she did it for government handouts. She had six children already which would have put her at the front of the line already and must realize that welfare is subsistence at best, not an easy life.

I think she has a mental disorder.

Her parents bought her house for her but had to declare bankruptcy and moved in with her.

I don't know if it's true but I heard her first 6 children were conceived by IVF treatment as well. No sex before marriage, she may still be a virgin. At least she's not a slut ;)

Edit: just saw on the news that she is looking at book and publicity deals If true she may pay her own way after all.

[Rat Faced]

I really don't think she did it for government handouts. She had six children already which would have put her at the front of the line already and must realize that welfare is subsistence at best, not an easy life.

I think she has a mental disorder.

Her parents bought her house for her but had to declare bankruptcy and moved in with her.

I don't know if it's true but I heard her first 6 children were conceived by IVF treatment as well. No sex before marriage, she may still be a virgin. At least she's not a slut ;)

Edit: just saw on the news that she is looking at book and publicity deals If true she may pay her own way after all.

You may be right.

However, it costs not much more to feed 3 than to feed 2.. probably the same to feed 4 as 6. Childrens clothing usually lasts longer than a child will fit into it (especially the smaller variety), so it can be handed down easily.

If you get a fixed amount per child, then eventually you can make a nice profit.

This is just me being cynical of course, I'm sure she just likes being pregnant :)

[kallieb]

I agree. The woman is probably emotionally disturbed to some extent. The mere facts of this case known so far suggest so. Her near-obsession with pregnancy and wanting children is a bit over the top; having 14 children of which 8 were born in one swoop, with a brood of 6 at home between the ages of 7 and 2 is to most eyes odd behaviour at best.

What concerns me is the practical consideration in that how on earth a single parent effectively meet the needs of all these children.

I can just see the personalities of the children developing as a result of this family:

The normally shy and withdrawn child will either become an extreme introvert due to to sheer impossibility of getting heard in the midst of such a compressed family, or by opposite, turn into some raging conduct-disordered whacko because the only way they can get attention is to be louder and more outrageous than the other 14.

Aside from that lovely scenario, another good chunk of them will likely become parentified little adults before their time because they'll hear.. help mommy with... (fill in the name of one of the other 13 siblings), or can you watch.... while mommy..... so often that they'll soon consider childhood is solely a time of life called parenting-in-training.

A thought that really begs discussion of this whole story is the notion of family size on demand. Seriously, what kind of Quack (aka as her fertility specialists) would impregnate a women without first determining a) her history and her psychological readiness for having such a large brood; and b) not doing a full battery of blood tests so as to ensure that the multiplying of eggs - which seemed to explain why she went from have a simple small multiple birth to a freakish amount - was not likely to happen.

Is fertility and the act of birthing a child come down to an economic right only?? If you can pay, you can get a kid?

I know the criticism is often said that parents should go through some test before allowed to conceive, but in the case of in vitro, there is a clear step in place whereby a potentially disturbed person can be denied service if they're deemed a bit on the odd side - especially when it comes to raising children.

Child protective services makes determinations of parental capacity and fitness all the time. Why are not fertility specialists considering the same??

My two cents...

[100%]

Taking care of orphans could have been an option.

[pentomato]

...is reportedly not married, has no job, no prospects, and lives with her parents.

What she has, mostly, is children.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28940033/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

What do you think?

I didn't see that, where was it that she didn't have a job?
I think she is nuts to have six kids and now eight more, hell not, and I complaint because I have to raise one lol.

[pentomato]

How would your socialist system regard her predilection, I wonder.

I think in the socialist system I live, we would make you marry her, so don't come to the north east, because you would live with a wife and 14 kids yeahhhhhh lol

[j2k4]

I think she has a mental disorder.

There are indications.

[devilsadvocate]

My first reply was based on the news I had seen and reading the first link. It was more about motives, not thinking she was doing it for handouts.

I've just read the second article and a couple of things I'd not heard before made me think.

There were frozen embryos left over after her previous pregnancies and her daughter didn't want them destroyed, so she decided to have more children.
Her mother and doctors have said the woman was told she had the option to abort some of the embryos and, later, the fetuses. She refused
So these were already fertilized embryos at risk of being destroyed, not eggs she had fertilized for this particular pregnancy. Putting aside she may well be slightly cuckoo -

With all the discussion about pro life issues and objections to stem cell research that destroys embryos etc. And there being no guarantee that the embryos could be adopted, was this ultimately the correct pro life action?

Of course she could just have read j2k4's thing about us not reproducing enough and answered the call to arms.

[pentomato]

...is reportedly not married, has no job, no prospects, and lives with her parents.

What she has, mostly, is children.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28940033/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

What do you think?

So if a woman is not married, she woulnd't be fit to have children?

[Rat Faced]

I know that j2k4 is a little Conservative, and would rather she were married.. however I dont think he's so Bible Thumping as to say she isn't fit to have children if she isn't.

I don't think ANYONE can raise that number of children properly without a great deal of help.

There is only so many hours in a day, and children need attention and nurturing.

[j2k4]

Of course she could just have read j2k4's thing about us not reproducing enough and answered the call to arms.

Interesting way to put that.



...is reportedly not married, has no job, no prospects, and lives with her parents.

What she has, mostly, is children.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28940033/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

What do you think?

So if a woman is not married, she woulnd't be fit to have children?

That is not what I said, but since your reading ability is ruled by your outside-the-left-field-fence-foul-pole-no-longer-in-sight sensibilities, I'll give you a pass.

"Fit to have children", for purposes of your post, is but a physical hurdle.

Would you care to argue whether the woman meets any reasonable standard of responsible behavior?


I know that j2k4 is a little Conservative, and would rather she were married.. however I dont think he's so Bible Thumping as to say she isn't fit to have children if she isn't.

I don't think ANYONE can raise that number of children properly without a great deal of help.

There is only so many hours in a day, and children need attention and nurturing.

Why, thank you, Brother Rat.

[devilsadvocate]

That is not what I said,
As far as I can tell you haven't actually said anything by way of an opinion.






I was listening to Bill'O on the radio at lunchtime. He seemed to be having a frothy mouthed meltdown over this woman. He was demanding everyone call the CA state attorney because in his opinion this is child abuse. I couldn't tell if he was more outraged at the prospect of one cent of taxpayers money paying for potential health care or the woman might get one cent by selling her story/interview money.
I've heard a lot about irresponsible behaviour. I have still to hear how her irrisponsible behavior trumps the pro life argument.
They were embyos, that according to pro life rules are humans. To destroy them would be the same as an abortion morally speaking. They shouldn't be used for research. The only pro life position should be implant them and bring them to term.
Unless irresponsible behavior is added to the list of exception to the life begins at conception no abortion rule.


It opens a whole can of worms in the debate IMO.

[Busyman]

She shouldn't have been allowed fertility help. It's people like her that help fuck up the system.

She has more children than men allowed on the field for a NFL team ffs and she receives assistance.

[j2k4]

That is not what I said,
As far as I can tell you haven't actually said anything by way of an opinion.






I was listening to Bill'O on the radio at lunchtime. He seemed to be having a frothy mouthed meltdown over this woman. He was demanding everyone call the CA state attorney because in his opinion this is child abuse. I couldn't tell if he was more outraged at the prospect of one cent of taxpayers money paying for potential health care or the woman might get one cent by selling her story/interview money.
I've heard a lot about irresponsible behaviour. I have still to hear how her irrisponsible behavior trumps the pro life argument.
They were embyos, that according to pro life rules are humans. To destroy them would be the same as an abortion morally speaking. They shouldn't be used for research. The only pro life position should be implant them and bring them to term.
Unless irresponsible behavior is added to the list of exception to the life begins at conception no abortion rule.


It opens a whole can of worms in the debate IMO.

Looks to me like you are the only one pulling the tab on that particular can of worms, at least in this thread.

Maybe you ought to start a new one.


She shouldn't have been allowed fertility help. It's people like her that help fuck up the system.

She has more children than men allowed on the field for a NFL team ffs and she receives assistance.

I keep getting help from unexpected quarters.

Thanks, Busyman.

[clocker]

It opens a whole can of worms in the debate IMO.
There's no way to "debate" this situation...it's a fucking freakshow, suitable for an hour on Jerry Springer (and naturally, a rant by Bill O 'Reilly) but of the same interest to a normal person as driving by a roadside accident.

There is nothing normal about this woman, her situation or the doctors who enabled it.
Attempting to "debate" this with the intention of arriving at a consensus applicable to regular people is akin to using Joseph Merrick in a discussion of human evolution- yes, he existed but was so far out of spec as to be nothing but a statistical anomaly.

Nadya Suleman is the nexus of a perfect storm of debatable topics but her case is so exaggerated in every aspect that no reasonable conclusions could be reached concerning her situation as a whole.

Hell, this situation is so weird that the usual suspects- think Pampers and Gerber- are avoiding it like the plague.

As shall I.

[devilsadvocate]

The debate is about personal responsibility.

There's a lot of finger wagging going on. I'm going with the mentally disturbed angle myself.

But if there's going to be finger wagging one has to look at one's own morals, decide what order they go in and not just pull them out when it suits.

Yes IMO she is the cuckoo. If she is not cuckoo she is not being responsible if she is unable to care for the children. But then the consensus among a lot of those wagging the finger at this unmarried woman is that abortion is wrong even for unmarried women or for families that find themselves expecting while they are unable to support themselves. Is abortion only wrong for the first six, seven or eight children? What is the magic number? Is abortion now only wrong for rich people?

You can make all the arguments you want about if she should have had the eggs fertilized in the first place and I would agree, but the fact is that eight viable embryos were going to be destroyed.

So excuse me if I don't condemn this nut case, she saved eight lives.

[Rat Faced]

There are other ways to "save 8 lives"... not that I am implying in any way that a fertilised egg is Human. That is a different debate (and I think we've had that one before too)

A great many Ladies that wish to have Children can't produce eggs... as an example.

[Skiz]

The plot thickens....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,488627,00.html

[Busyman]

The plot thickens....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,488627,00.html

Well I know where she's coming from....slightly.

I'm an only child and my family isn't big in my generation. I only have 2 first cousins (well I just found out about another fairly recently). However, I was perfectly happy as an only child and never missed not having a brother or sister.

I plan on having at least 3 kids but that's only cuz I can afford them. If I was a billionaire, I'd probably want more. I always thought my financial situation was to be used as a pseudo-guide for how many kids to have.

What she's doing is irresponsible and sickening and I don't like her.

I don't even think she's mentally ill. I think she's an attention whore and an opportunist.

[j2k4]

The plot thickens....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,488627,00.html

Well I know where she's coming from....slightly.

I'm an only child and my family isn't big in my generation. I only have 2 first cousins (well I just found out about another fairly recently). However, I was perfectly happy as an only child and never missed not having a brother or sister.

I plan on having at least 3 kids but that's only cuz I can afford them. If I was a billionaire, I'd probably want more. I always thought my financial situation was to be used as a pseudo-guide for how many kids to have.

What she's doing is irresponsible and sickening and I don't like her.

I don't even think she's mentally ill. I think she's an attention whore and an opportunist.

Hmmm.

Your spelling and syntax have improved radically.

Your logic is coming along as well.

Have you turned forty or something else.

[Busyman]

Well I know where she's coming from....slightly.

I'm an only child and my family isn't big in my generation. I only have 2 first cousins (well I just found out about another fairly recently). However, I was perfectly happy as an only child and never missed not having a brother or sister.

I plan on having at least 3 kids but that's only cuz I can afford them. If I was a billionaire, I'd probably want more. I always thought my financial situation was to be used as a pseudo-guide for how many kids to have.

What she's doing is irresponsible and sickening and I don't like her.

I don't even think she's mentally ill. I think she's an attention whore and an opportunist.

Hmmm.

Your spelling and syntax have improved radically.

Your logic is coming along as well.

Have you turned forty or something else.


I told you. Most of the time I'm on here, I'm doing other things.

If I were writing a paper for school or speaking in front of fellow table members my grammar would be impeccable.

I mean, it's just you guys.

You ain't special.:happy: Not to worry though....you'll see more fukc upz.

[Snee]

Nadya Suleman holds a 2006 degree in child and adolescent development from California State University, Fullerton, and as late as last spring she was studying for a master's degree in counseling, college spokeswoman Paula Selleck told the Press-Telegram.

She must really want to use that degree for someting.

[clocker]

She must really want to use that degree for someting.
Yeah, because everyone knows the best way to fasttrack your academic career is to have fourteen young kids at home.

[Snee]

I was thinking more of the first degree. Counseling is what the kids'll need when they grow up in a 14-child single mental parent family, though.

That's just good planning :sly:

[j2k4]

:forehead-slapping smilie:

[pentomato]

I was thinking more of the first degree. Counseling is what the kids'll need when they grow up in a 14-child single mental parent family, though.

That's just good planning :sly:

Counseling her kids? Shit she is the one that needs counseling, she needs an exorcism.

[Busyman]

I was thinking more of the first degree. Counseling is what the kids'll need when they grow up in a 14-child single mental parent family, though.

That's just good planning :sly:

Counseling her kids? Shit she is the one that needs counseling, she needs an exorcism.


E2eW_MaaqEk

[devilsadvocate]

Nadya Suleman holds a 2006 degree in child and adolescent development from California State University, Fullerton, and as late as last spring she was studying for a master's degree in counseling, college spokeswoman Paula Selleck told the Press-Telegram.She must really want to use that degree for someting.

Perhaps it's all part of her book deal plan.

I've always found it odd the amount of child care experts on TV and writing books who have no children of their own.

[Rat Faced]

I've always found Social Workers to have huge social problems of their own.. wondered if they were just employed to say "This is what I've done, it didn't work, try something different"

[KultNavn]

Poor kids

[Squeamous]

...is reportedly not married, has no job, no prospects, and lives with her parents.

What she has, mostly, is children.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28940033/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

What do you think?

Apparently she doesn't know how she will provide for all her children, but she's sure God will come along and help her. That's the American taxpayer to you and me.

[Snee]

God has already provided her with some nice babies to eat.

With that many you can afford to waste a few.

[Rat Faced]

Snee, I didn't realise that you were English nor that the 30 year old woman was Irish.

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

So, her parents are 23k behind in house payments and about to lose their house. And octomom is now talking about buying a million dollar home. Damn, welfare folks be banking.

[Snee]

Cor blimey, Luv a duck. And so forth.

[j2k4]

So, her parents are 23k behind in house payments and about to lose their house. And octomom is now talking about buying a million dollar home. Damn, welfare folks be banking.

Only in America.

It would seem she might qualify as a "Poster Mom" under the Obama administration - after all, we've been schooled for years not to question anyone's lifestyle choices, no matter how absurd, right?

Oooops - I've probably just violated some retroactively applicable political correctness law under contemplation by the administration.

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

So, her parents are 23k behind in house payments and about to lose their house. And octomom is now talking about buying a million dollar home. Damn, welfare folks be banking.

Only in America.

It would seem she might qualify as a "Poster Mom" under the Obama administration - after all, we've been schooled for years not to question anyone's lifestyle choices, no matter how absurd, right?

Oooops - I've probably just violated some retroactively applicable political correctness law under contemplation by the administration.

Kind of like a school near my hometown. They are offering a class only for black girls. They say it is for them to appreciate their culture. If you say anything about this you are labeled a racist. Yet, non-black peoples tax money is paying for it. I wonder if this class is really to teach them about having bastardized children or how to fill out the papers required to receive public assistance?

[clocker]

It would seem she might qualify as a "Poster Mom" under the Obama administration ....
More like the evangelical, right-leaning Southern Republican (with a detour through Wasilla) poster chile.
Liberals have fewer kids (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5288004) than conservatives, so it's hard to pin this one on Obama.

[j2k4]

It would seem she might qualify as a "Poster Mom" under the Obama administration ....
More like the evangelical, right-leaning Southern Republican (with a detour through Wasilla) poster chile.
Liberals have fewer kids (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5288004) than conservatives, so it's hard to pin this one on Obama.

Not true - Obama is beside the point; he's getting blamed (by me) 'cuz he's the president, much as Bush was blamed for everything (see "housing crisis") during his tenure.

Liberals, no matter what their predominating reproductive habits, believe in "tolerance" of whatever behavior, no matter how destructive/stupid/inane.

[clocker]

No, we don't.

[j2k4]

No, we don't.


Well, I forgot - you are pro-death penalty...what else?

[Rat Faced]

Liberals, no matter what their predominating reproductive habits, believe in "tolerance" of whatever behavior, no matter how destructive/stupid/inane.

Can't recall being that Tolerant to Bush or Blair.

If I came over as such, please excuse me, it wasn't so...

[j2k4]

Liberals, no matter what their predominating reproductive habits, believe in "tolerance" of whatever behavior, no matter how destructive/stupid/inane.

Can't recall being that Tolerant to Bush or Blair.

If I came over as such, please excuse me, it wasn't so...

Gee, yeah I forgot the ultimate qualifier:

Liberals will tolerate anything at all, except conservatives and their ideas/ideals, or faux conservatives, or those who empathize with conservatives and their ideas/ideals.

[clocker]

Now you've got it.

[Busyman]

So, her parents are 23k behind in house payments and about to lose their house. And octomom is now talking about buying a million dollar home. Damn, welfare folks be banking.

Only in America.

It would seem she might qualify as a "Poster Mom" under the Obama administration - after all, we've been schooled for years not to question anyone's lifestyle choices, no matter how absurd, right?

Oooops - I've probably just violated some retroactively applicable political correctness law under contemplation by the administration.

Great so she is not only what I don't like about welfare recipients that keep having babies while on assistance but has now jumped genres and is now what I hate about irresponsible people who buy houses they can't afford.

[Busyman]

Only in America.

It would seem she might qualify as a "Poster Mom" under the Obama administration - after all, we've been schooled for years not to question anyone's lifestyle choices, no matter how absurd, right?

Oooops - I've probably just violated some retroactively applicable political correctness law under contemplation by the administration.

Kind of like a school near my hometown. They are offering a class only for black girls. They say it is for them to appreciate their culture. If you say anything about this you are labeled a racist. Yet, non-black peoples tax money is paying for it. I wonder if this class is really to teach them about having bastardized children or how to fill out the papers required to receive public assistance?

See this is where you fuck up. I was in agreement until your shitty ass last sentence.

You're a racist fuck.

[Squeamous]

So, her parents are 23k behind in house payments and about to lose their house. And octomom is now talking about buying a million dollar home. Damn, welfare folks be banking.

Only in America.

It would seem she might qualify as a "Poster Mom" under the Obama administration - after all, we've been schooled for years not to question anyone's lifestyle choices, no matter how absurd, right?

Oooops - I've probably just violated some retroactively applicable political correctness law under contemplation by the administration.

Bless. You think it's bad there. Pay a trip over to the UK now and you'll have a glimpse into the future. Imagine California, but you can't just leave the state, because California is in your home when you turn on your telly, it's in your newspapers, and it's on the radio. And if you protest it calls you a fascist and cries.

[j2k4]

Only in America.

It would seem she might qualify as a "Poster Mom" under the Obama administration - after all, we've been schooled for years not to question anyone's lifestyle choices, no matter how absurd, right?

Oooops - I've probably just violated some retroactively applicable political correctness law under contemplation by the administration.

Bless. You think it's bad there. Pay a trip over to the UK now and you'll have a glimpse into the future. Imagine California, but you can't just leave the state, because California is in your home when you turn on your telly, it's in your newspapers, and it's on the radio. And if you protest it calls you a fascist and cries.

We have several members hereabout defending the U.K., and life in it, as well.

You, on the other hand, seem a trifle dis-satisfied.

Very curious.

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

You're a racist fuck.

Praise 'bama!

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

nvm

[Rat Faced]

Bless. You think it's bad there. Pay a trip over to the UK now and you'll have a glimpse into the future. Imagine California, but you can't just leave the state, because California is in your home when you turn on your telly, it's in your newspapers, and it's on the radio. And if you protest it calls you a fascist and cries.

We have several members hereabout defending the U.K., and life in it, as well.

You, on the other hand, seem a trifle dis-satisfied.

Very curious.

:lol:

That def was not aimed at me, I have done my fair share of UK bashing.

US only gets more coz your further along the Dark Path than we are in most things ;)

[Squeamous]

Bless. You think it's bad there. Pay a trip over to the UK now and you'll have a glimpse into the future. Imagine California, but you can't just leave the state, because California is in your home when you turn on your telly, it's in your newspapers, and it's on the radio. And if you protest it calls you a fascist and cries.

We have several members hereabout defending the U.K., and life in it, as well.

You, on the other hand, seem a trifle dis-satisfied.

Very curious.

Well it's all down to personal observation and judgement isn't it? But there must be a reason British people are leaving in their droves for countries like France, Spain, Canada and Australia, all of which have much less liberal social policies, harsher criminal courts and a much more defined sense of cultural identity.

[j2k4]

We have several members hereabout defending the U.K., and life in it, as well.

You, on the other hand, seem a trifle dis-satisfied.

Very curious.

Well it's all down to personal observation and judgement isn't it? But there must be a reason British people are leaving in their droves for countries like France, Spain, Canada and Australia, all of which have much less liberal social policies, harsher criminal courts and a much more defined sense of cultural identity.

Of course, it's just that Brother Rat (below) seems to disagree with you.


:lol:

That def was not aimed at me, I have done my fair share of UK bashing.

US only gets more coz your further along the Dark Path than we are in most things ;)

You weren't inclined to give Geert Wilders an audience.

How's your free speech, then.

The communist path is not so dark for you?

[Squeamous]

Perhaps Brother Rat is part of the problem. Although perhaps 'problem' is all subjective. To him, there is no problem because things are going the way he wants them to be.

[Rat Faced]

Well it's all down to personal observation and judgement isn't it? But there must be a reason British people are leaving in their droves for countries like France, Spain, Canada and Australia, all of which have much less liberal social policies, harsher criminal courts and a much more defined sense of cultural identity.

Of course, it's just that Brother Rat (below) seems to disagree with you.


:lol:

That def was not aimed at me, I have done my fair share of UK bashing.

US only gets more coz your further along the Dark Path than we are in most things ;)

You weren't inclined to give Geert Wilders an audience.

How's your free speech, then.

The communist path is not so dark for you?

I'm sure that just a couple of weeks ago I mentioned Geert Wilders as evidence that the UK was going to the Dogs as a result of way too much shit coming from Government.

As I said then, he should be allowed in.

I may not agree with what he says, but personally I believe in Free Speech and Free Association.

It's unfortunate that neither of our countries do any more.

As to your quip re: Communism, I laugh at you.

You know fine well that I dont agree with ANY extremes of politics. I find the far left equally as offensive as the far right.

Neither of our Countries have any option other than "Right" though at the moment.. it's just a matter of how far to the right you wish to vote.

I find myself in the extraordinary position of voting Lib-Dem, as they are the closest to "Left" I can comfortably support (I wont vote for the Communists or any of the other "Socialist" parties), Labour having decided that the Tory's aren't right wing enough.