What Is Your Christianity?

[Billy_Dean]

The following passage made me think about what people actually believe, not faith, belief. Are you a Christian? If you are, do you believe in things like the virgin birth, walking on water, water into wine, the resurrection, etc.. And what about your God, do you believe in the white haired old man sitting in a place called Heaven? Read the following and let us know.



The following is excerpted from a recent book by Bishop John Shelby Spong titled, "A New Christianity for a New World; Why Traditional Faith is Dying and How a New Faith is Being Born" (Harper San Francisco, 2001).

"Between 1910 and 1915, in response to biblical criticism in general and to the challenge of Charles Darwin in particular, a group of conservative Christians published a series of pamphlets under the title "The Fundamentals." From those pamphlets the word fundamentalism as a description of the literal beliefs of conservative Christians entered the religious vocabulary.

"The tracts defended such things as the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch, the Davidic authorship of the Psalms, and the accuracy of the biblical prophecy predicting specific events in the life and death of Jesus Christ. Each of these suppositions has been successfully challenged by modern scholarship. Beyond that, these tracts also defended the literal accuracy of what they called "the primary Christian themes," in time these basic fundamentals of Christianity were said to be five in number. To question or to deny the truth of any of these five doctrines was thought to be an act not just of heresy, but of actual apostasy.

"These five fundamentals were:
1.  "The inspiration of scripture as the literal, revealed word of God.
2.  "The virgin birth as the miraculous and literal means by which the divine nature of Christ has been guaranteed.
3.  "The substitutionary view of the atonement that was accomplished in the death of Jesus. The affirmation of the saving power of his blood and the gift of salvation that was accomplished by his death.
4.  "The certainty of the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus from the dead. The accuracy of both the empty-tomb and the appearance stories in the gospel tradition.
5.  "The truth of the second coming of Jesus, the reality of the Day of Judgment, which would be based on the record of one's life, and the certainty of heaven and hell as eternal places of reward and punishment."


:)

[nikita69]

just to add to ur thoughts/points. quote about the bishop:

Drawing on his Biblical scholarship, Bishop Spong reminds us that the Bible is a Jewish story-telling book, written by Jewish people and explains some of the many consequences that follow from that tradition, in contrast to Western ways of thinking. He speaks to the questions: How do you define God?  How do you define the transcendent?  How does one define the journey into a deeper and fuller humanity (which is what Bishop Spong believes the Christian life ultimately is)?  He urges Christians back to the mystery which is at the heart of Christianity, insisting that religion needs to be open-ended, a journey into the mystery of God, with no one path inferior to any other. He describes God as the very heart and source of life, of love, the ground of being. He connects this reality to what he sees in the life of Jesus of Nazareth

[bigboab]

Why is it called Christianity if it was written in BC?

[AussieSheila]

:huh: Long before anybody worshipped a male god (maybe 25,000 years ago until relatively recently) it was the 'Mother' or the Donii that was worshipped as the Creator. It's no harder to believe, in fact, it makes sense to me.

:)

And no, there's not too many bible stories I believe.

[bigboab]

Surely the Bible, the Koran and all other religious books are just a moral guideline loosely based on actual or fictitious characters. Considering most of them were written when you could not argue against the contents or you would end up the in the centre of a bonfire or some such horrible fate. The central characters of all of these books dont stand up to very close unbiased investigation.

[silent VI]

:) i put my faith in god and no 1 else we all need somthing to belive in i belive in god not in christainity i think the bible has been currupted over the many years to scare people into being good but i do belive god created our soul i do belive he loves every1 and i do belive he forgives every1

Only God Can Judge Us

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by DrunkeNStylE@25 September 2003 - 21:35
:) i put my faith in god and no 1 else we all need somthing to belive in i belive in god not in christainity i think the bible has been currupted over the many years to scare people into being good but i do belive god created our soul i do belive he loves every1 and i do belive he forgives every1

Only God Can Judge Us
I understand what you're saying, this thread was not meant to judge.

I'd like to understand what form your god is. Is god a "man" to you? Does your god listen to you specifically, and act for you?


:)

[silent VI]

understand what you're saying, this thread was not meant to judge.

I'd like to understand what form your god is. Is god a "man" to you? Does your god listen to you specifically, and act for you?



;) sorry


i dont belive god has a specific form hes a soul therfore can be anything an di don tthink he will act for you induvidualy but he is there to guide us

[J'Pol]

Whether God is white haired, a man, black, tall or fat all are irrelevant and meaningless. This is to put human characteristics on God.

To wonder whether Heaven has pearly gates is also meaningless.

This is what I believe, I speak for myself and not for other people.

I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

[thewizeard]

I don't...But I do have respect for your statement and for your belief JPaul.

Edit: oh yes, and for you.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by nigel123@25 September 2003 - 21:30
I don't...But I do have respect for your statement and for your belief JPaul.

Edit: oh yes, and for you.
I can assure you sir that the feeling is mutual.

[Gemby!]

i dont belive in a male or a female god

i see god as a person who i can pray for help and guidence


i am not sure about the ressurection and virgin birth - i think it might have a hidden meaning or something


i belive the planet was created by something - and that was god - adam and eve im not too sure of

jesus i do belive in

i happen to belive in miracles - everyday im alive its a miracle ! :P

anything else you wanna know i will happily tell :)

[bigboab]

But then again Gemby, you lead a purrfect life. ;)

[hobbes]

Originally posted by bigboab@26 September 2003 - 01:40
But then again Gemby, you lead a purrfect life. ;)
If I were God, puns would definitely be a sin.

Sorry, carry on......

[bigboab]

Then I would go metric.(Scottish joke. Pun = pound) :D

[hobbes]

Originally posted by bigboab@26 September 2003 - 01:52
Then I would go metric.(Scottish joke. Pun = pound) :D
Going metric has a certain advantages. When my weight got a little out of control, I decided to go metric instead of diet and exercise. I found that I could drop my weight significantly by simply changing pounds to kilograms. The resultant number made me feel downright anorexic.


As I said before, back to the topic at hand.

[nikita69]

I respect your statement sir JPaul. I have asked everyone in my family & friends, the church and intelli. strangers about these quotes and NON of the responses I got from them were convincing. Kindly explain them to me, maybe your answers would convince me. btw, i'm not closed minded and do believe in a 2-way street.

Originally posted by JPaul@26 September 2003 - 02:21
I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.
I look at this sentence from a logical point of view and I see contradiction, on one hand i'm told "one lord" and another, told "three entities, the son, the father and the wholly spirit/ghost"


is seated at the right hand of the Father
is this in terms of physically being the right hand (in sharing or assistance) of the Father, if so, what happened to God, or if God is the Father, then who is God? the son or the Father or the Wholly Spirit" or all in one? if all in one, then i'm confused on why?


He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead
again, who will, the Son, the Father, the Wholly Spirit? unless the answer is All In One, then i'm still confused.


I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins
Baptism done by whom, the preist? if so, then forgive me, yet I have to disagree. Merely because, there is no evidence of power transfer to any human to simply forgive me for my sins. and start another day as a fresh soul, until my next confession.

Peace.

[MagicNakor]

JPaul's referring to the Holy Trinity, which is featured prominently in Catholicism. In the words of the Athanasian Creed: "The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."


...He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead...

is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

I'm certain if I'm vague or mistaken, JPaul'll correct me. I'm not Catholic, I'm just well-read. ;)

:ninja:

[nikita69]

I thank u for ur input and hope that JPaul responds, or anyone for that matter. :)

[Suicyco247]

I've come to the conclusion that many 'Christians' seem to worship a book(bible) more than what is written in the book. Every Sunday, millions of people go to church to have this book quoted, analyzed, and followed. It is not the word of God, it was written by man, it has been edited by man, and has been translated numerous times by man, man makes mistakes. In general the good book provides rules to live by, but I don't think it was ever meant to be taken literally.

In short, I believe in a 'higher power' what this is, I'm not really sure, what I do know is that my God is perfect.
My God doesn't demand worship, it does not spite me, or cause me hardships, or test my faith, as has the 'Christian God'.
My God provides solace when my will is weak and comfort when I need it.
My God doesn't rely on fear of going to Hell to make me live a good life, I know right from wrong and try to choose accordingly.
My God understands that faith wavers, and understands that I may question it's existence.

If the Christian Bible is right, then I will burn in Hell for my beliefs, but I will burn knowing that I lived a good life that was not based on fear, but one based on doing the best I can to help make the world a better place for all, not just those that agree with me.

[rf9rider]

My Opinion; Ban religion, everybody be more spiritual, respect others, just get on with youre life, we are only here for a short time, enjoy it!

[Tikibonbon]

and has been translated numerous times by man

more people need to realize that the bible has been rewritten numerous times by various ruling people to fit their political needs, hence many still use the "king james" version.

[thewizeard]

I thought this was not about defending one religion , but about describing it....

[J'Pol]

Thanks nigel, I was going to say something similar, tho' I try to read all posts before I do.

A chap asked us to describe what we believe (at least he asked those of Christian faith). I have done this in the spirit I take it to be intended, i.e. that he was genuinely interested in what people believe.

I really don't have the inclination to try to explain it to people, no offence, I am really not into that sort of thing. However I will say that I do not worship a book. There are several books which I really like - God Bless You Mr Rosewater is one of them, but I don't worship it. I am sure a lot of Christians get annoyed when people say these things - "oh they go to Church and worship a book". What do people base these things on, their encyclopedic knowledge of Christianity or their regular attendance at Church or both perhaps.

Oh and thanks for that MagicN - More of a Nicene Creed man myself, but that's not important right now.

If you don't believe that baptism removes original sin then you will have serious problems with transubstantiation.

[Gemby!]

same - i didnt say stuff i believed in for someone to tell me its wrong !! thats just rude !!


my life aint puuurrr fect - i am still stuck in this glass :P

[Billy_Dean]

My "point" in starting this thread was to understand EXACTLY what christians believe their god to be. I hear many interpretations of what it means to be christian, which was why I quoted the "fundamentals.

What I would like your views on really centres on your god. It seems to me that if your god doesn't look act and speak like us, then you can't truly be a christian. If, as most christians claim, the bible is the word of god, there can be no doubt that he has a human form. As an example, read the whole story of the battle of Jericho.

As you may expect from me, I do have an ulterior motive. His name is John Shelby Spong. This man also declares that he is a christian, yet he holds much different views to , say, JPaul. I'll quote more from him later.


:)

Edit: typo.

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@27 September 2003 - 09:35
...This man also declares that he is a christian, yet he holds much different views to , say, JPaul. I'll quote more from him later.


:)
Likely because he's Episcopal, and JPaul's Catholic.

:ninja:

[Billy_Dean]

This is a quote from Bishop Spong. The full text is here;
"Can One Be a Christian without Being a Theist?" (http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/vox21096.html)


Theism is the historic way men and women have been taught to think about God. Most people think theism is the only conceivable way to think about God. The primary image of God in the Bible is a theistic image.

By that I mean that God is conceived of as a Being, even the Supreme Being, external to this world, supernatural in power, and operating on this world in some fashion to call this world and those of us who inhabit it into the divine will or the divine presence. This theistic Being is inevitably portrayed in human terms as a person who has a will, who loves, who rewards and who punishes. One can find other images of God in the scriptures, but this is the predominant and the familiar one.

Theism is also the primary understanding of God revealed in the liturgies of the Christian churches, including the various Anglican Books of Common Prayer. There the God we meet is described as a Being who desires our praises, elicits our confessions, reveals to us the divine will and who calls us into the spiritual life of communion with this Divine Being.

So dominant is this theistic understanding of God that if one rejects theism, one is thought to be an a-theist. An atheist is defined as one who dismisses the theistic concept of God and, since theism exhausts most people's definition of God, an atheist by definition is one who rejects the concept that God might be real.

So when one is confronted with the question, "Can one be a Christian without being a theist?" it opens vast doors for further thought and theological speculation.

This question becomes askable only when one lives in a world that has rendered the traditional theistic view of God inoperative. We may not like to confront that reality, but in a real sense, this is what the post-modern world forces the contemporary religious community to face. The Supernatural Being that we have traditionally called God has increasingly been rendered impotent by the explosion in human knowledge over the last five hundred years.

The views of this man are the basis for this thread, I would hope for some constructive critisism here, and not an attack on the man.
His latest book, "A New Christianity For a New World" needs reading to fully understand his views.
BTW, I do not agree with everything he says, I just find his "modern" outlook refreshing.


:)

Edit: Added last paragraph.

[J'Pol]

Sorry, am I missing the point. I read what this chap has written , or at least what has been quoted above. I have no problem with it whatsoever, I do not have an image of God in human terms, that would be ludicrous.

However to be a Christian is surely to follow the teachings of Christ. If he believes what Christ taught and follows those teachings then he is a Christian. If not then he is not a Christian. The teachings are obviously open to interpretation and were made at a time when the oral tradition was much stronger. The telling of stories was more the norm and stories and parables were used to illustrate points.

I believe that we should take these teachings within a modern framework and consider what they mean to us, within the context of our own lives.

[Billy_Dean]

Maybe you could read the whole article JP, that was only a small part.

I quote you here only to bring your post closer.


This is what I believe, I speak for myself and not for other people.

I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

You see, this, to me, looks as though you believe in a literal translation of the bible, in which your god is in human form.

Now, my problem with Jesus is just this point. I believe he lived, and I believe he died. You don't. If Jesus was the son of god, and entered heaven ....


On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

.. as a man, flesh and blood, does that not make god and heaven also "physical"?

My reason for this query, is the "authority" afforded to Jesus. Would you feel the same about a Jesus who was born mortal, like you and I? And was the "son of god" only in the way you also see yourself as being a son of god?



:)

[J'Pol]

Of course I believe that Jesus lived and died, that was the whole point. Why on earth would you say that I don't believe this. If he hadn't taken human form then the death and resurrection would not have been a miracle, it would have been meaningless as it would not have involved the fear and suffering. The point is that He took human form and had all of our frailties and weaknesses, but made various choices throughout his life. That way he taught by his actions as well as his words. He was an example of how to live one's life.

He rose from the dead then ascended into heaven. He then came back again on various occasions and visited the apostles. This was not in human form.

I really can see no reason why you would suggest that I do not believe what I have outlined above, other than to upset me in some way. I answered your question in good faith. I will bear this exchange in mind when dealing with you in the future.

[Billy_Dean]

Thanx JP, you never dissappoint, totally incapable of a rational discussion.

I will bear this exchange in mind when dealing with you in the future.



:)

[nikita69]

Billy_Dean, I hope my previous questions were in the scope of this discussion. If so, I welcome anyone's response. :)

[J'Pol]

I answered your question in good faith, you replied by mis-representing me, I have no idea to what end.

How could you possibly take me stating that I believe

"he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered died and was buried. "

to mean that I did not believe that Jesus lived and died. I take it that is what you meant when you said

"I believe he lived, and I believe he died. You don't."

Once again you either don't read what people write, are being obtuse, or are posting to offend.

I will happily let others decide, from our posts, which of us was being rational and reasonable.

Take care of yourself.

[Billy_Dean]

JP

He rose from the dead then ascended into heaven. He then came back again on various occasions and visited the apostles. This was not in human form.

Where does Doubting Thomas come into this then? According to the new testament, he did indeed come back in human form. My point when saying he died, is the usual interpretation of the word, that he died and was buried, his body rotting just like any human.

Your answers are contradictory, as usual.

I asked you how you can believe in a different god to that of the christian bible, yet believe in bodily resurrection.

As for not reading posts, you've turned it into an art form.


:)

[Billy_Dean]

Sorry Nikita, but I thought your questions were aimed at JPaul. And, I note, he declined to answer you, except for this ..


If you don't believe that baptism removes original sin then you will have serious problems with transubstantiation.


Transubstantiation
Transubstantiation is the alleged process whereby the bread and wine offered up at the communion service has its substance changed to that of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ while its accidents appear to be that of bread and wine. What looks like, tastes like, etc., bread and wine is actually another substance altogether. How this happens is a mystery and defies logic. How it can happen would require a miracle.

Transubstantiation is also known as the doctrine of the real presence.

Me? I'm as confused as you are, and I doubt anyone could give you a sensible answer to your questions.


:)

[protak]

Originally posted by nikita69@26 September 2003 - 04:38
I thank u for ur input and hope that JPaul responds, or anyone for that matter. :)
With all do respect to all, that have had the courtesy to reply, I will give you an explanation that was given to myself in the same confusion or uncertanty.
Look at the sun, what do you see??? A big yellow sun, the light, and the ray's that create the heat. They are all the same, one sun, three different things. Hence God, Jesus and the Holy spirit. Hope that helps.??? :D

[hobbes]

Originally posted by protak+28 September 2003 - 08:56--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (protak &#064; 28 September 2003 - 08:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-nikita69@26 September 2003 - 04:38
I thank u for ur input and hope that JPaul responds, or anyone for that matter. :)
With all do respect to all, that have had the courtesy to reply, I will give you an explanation that was given to myself in the same confusion or uncertanty.
Look at the sun, what do you see??? A big yellow sun, the light, and the ray&#39;s that create the heat. They are all the same, one sun, three different things. Hence God, Jesus and the Holy spirit. Hope that helps.??? :D [/b][/quote]
Why call something that is one, three different entities then, just confuses the matter.

I am male, I emit heat, I am caucasian- I do not refer to myself as a trinity.

[protak]

Originally posted by hobbes+28 September 2003 - 08:08--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 28 September 2003 - 08:08)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by protak@28 September 2003 - 08:56
<!--QuoteBegin-nikita69@26 September 2003 - 04:38
I thank u for ur input and hope that JPaul responds, or anyone for that matter. :)
With all do respect to all, that have had the courtesy to reply, I will give you an explanation that was given to myself in the same confusion or uncertanty.
Look at the sun, what do you see??? A big yellow sun, the light, and the ray&#39;s that create the heat. They are all the same, one sun, three different things. Hence God, Jesus and the Holy spirit. Hope that helps.??? :D
Why call something that is one, three different entities then, just confuses the matter.

I am male, I emit heat, I am caucasian- I do not refer to myself as a trinity. [/b][/quote]
Hobbes grow up dude, were not entities.... Stop watching star trek.... :unsure:

[hobbes]

Originally posted by protak+28 September 2003 - 09:18--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (protak @ 28 September 2003 - 09:18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by hobbes@28 September 2003 - 08:08

Originally posted by protak@28 September 2003 - 08:56
<!--QuoteBegin-nikita69@26 September 2003 - 04:38
I thank u for ur input and hope that JPaul responds, or anyone for that matter. :)
With all do respect to all, that have had the courtesy to reply, I will give you an explanation that was given to myself in the same confusion or uncertanty.
Look at the sun, what do you see??? A big yellow sun, the light, and the ray&#39;s that create the heat. They are all the same, one sun, three different things. Hence God, Jesus and the Holy spirit. Hope that helps.??? :D
Why call something that is one, three different entities then, just confuses the matter.

I am male, I emit heat, I am caucasian- I do not refer to myself as a trinity.
Hobbes grow up dude, were not entities.... Stop watching star trek.... :unsure: [/b][/quote]
The Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost are defined as the Divine Trinity.

I have never watched Star Trek.

One thing is one thing, learn your own religion. The six sides of a cube are not six different entities, but components of the same object.

[nikita69]

Originally posted by @--
Sorry Nikita, but I thought your questions were aimed at JPaul. And, I note, he declined to answer you, except for this ..

[quote]If you don&#39;t believe that baptism removes original sin then you will have serious problems with transubstantiation.

[i][color=red]
Transubstantiation
Transubstantiation is the alleged process whereby the bread and wine offered up at the communion service has its substance changed to that of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ while its accidents appear to be that of bread and wine. What looks like, tastes like, etc., bread and wine is actually another substance altogether. How this happens is a myst
thx Billy_Dean & JPaul, I hope someone is capabale or has gone thru what i&#39;m talking about and now understand it, to better enlighten me. :)

[protak]

Rikk hows the fishin mate??? B)
OK if I have to teach ya everything so be it.....LMFAO... :P :-"
1. Yes there is a god...(like it or not)
2. Yes Jesus walked the earth with us.....(like it or not)
3. Yes we as a society have made the world degenerate at a unbelieveable rate..
4. Yes you are stealing on p2p....(Oh shit)
5. Yes there are some very narrow minded people on this forum...(Fu8k em)
6. No Im not an role model...(Oh Shit )
7. No GOD does&#39;nt have a white beard, unless I missed something...(doh)
8. Yes there is a God...(like it or not)

[hobbes]

Originally posted by protak@28 September 2003 - 09:35
Rikk hows the fishin mate??? B)
OK if I have to teach ya everything so be it.....LMFAO... :P&nbsp; :-"
1. Yes there is a god...(like it or not)
2. Yes Jesus walked the earth with us.....(like it or not)
3. Yes we as a society have made the world degenerate at a unbelieveable rate..
4. Yes you are stealing on p2p....(Oh shit)
5. Yes there are some very narrow minded people on this forum...(Fu8k em)
6. No Im not an role model...(Oh Shit )
7. No GOD&nbsp; does&#39;nt have a white beard, unless I missed something...(doh)
8. Yes there is a God...(like it or not)
1. A matter of opinion, not fact
2. So what? Does not prove that he is the son of God, just that he existed.
3. Society has always been the same, ancient Greeks enjoyed sodomy. Today, we are not killed for speaking our minds.
4. Yes, we are stealing on P2P, maybe you should tell devout Catholic JPaul about this.
5. Narrow minded people- yes, you are.
6. You are, in fact, not a role model
7. If God exists he can have any color beard he wishes.
8. No, there is no proof of God, other than your hope.

Thanks for your sixth grade perspective.

[protak]

Originally posted by hobbes+28 September 2003 - 08:29--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 28 September 2003 - 08:29)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by protak@28 September 2003 - 09:18

Originally posted by hobbes@28 September 2003 - 08:08

Originally posted by protak@28 September 2003 - 08:56
<!--QuoteBegin-nikita69@26 September 2003 - 04:38
I thank u for ur input and hope that JPaul responds, or anyone for that matter. :)
With all do respect to all, that have had the courtesy to reply, I will give you an explanation that was given to myself in the same confusion or uncertanty.
Look at the sun, what do you see??? A big yellow sun, the light, and the ray&#39;s that create the heat. They are all the same, one sun, three different things. Hence God, Jesus and the Holy spirit. Hope that helps.??? :D
Why call something that is one, three different entities then, just confuses the matter.

I am male, I emit heat, I am caucasian- I do not refer to myself as a trinity.
Hobbes grow up dude, were not entities.... Stop watching star trek.... :unsure:
The Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost are defined as the Divine Trinity.

I have never watched Star Trek.

One thing is one thing, learn your own religion. The six sides of a cube are not six different entities, but components of the same object. [/b][/quote]
OK Just trying to give an explanation, that might shed light or not on a topic that is difficult to begin with, but if ya want to be an asshole about it lets rock, if that confused you, take a look at this picture and tell me the first thing that comes to your mind...... Have you ever heard that line before???????? :D

[hobbes]

If I have an alternate point of view, I am an "asshole". Do I call you any names for stating your belief, which I disagree with?

Religions are an invention by man to cushion this harsh reality we call "life".

Can you prove anything you say, or are you reciting what you have been told?

[protak]

Originally posted by hobbes+28 September 2003 - 08:52--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 28 September 2003 - 08:52)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-protak@28 September 2003 - 09:35
Rikk hows the fishin mate??? B)
OK if I have to teach ya everything so be it.....LMFAO... :P :-"
1. Yes there is a god...(like it or not)
2. Yes Jesus walked the earth with us.....(like it or not)
3. Yes we as a society have made the world degenerate at a unbelieveable rate..
4. Yes you are stealing on p2p....(Oh shit)
5. Yes there are some very narrow minded people on this forum...(Fu8k em)
6. No Im not an role model...(Oh Shit )
7. No GOD does&#39;nt have a white beard, unless I missed something...(doh)
8. Yes there is a God...(like it or not)
1. A matter of opinion, not fact
2. So what? Does not prove that he is the son of God, just that he existed.
3. Society has always been the same, ancient Greeks enjoyed sodomy. Today, we are not killed for speaking our minds.
4. Yes, we are stealing on P2P, maybe you should tell devout Catholic JPaul about this.
5. Narrow minded people- yes, you are.
6. You are, in fact, not a role model
7. If God exists he can have any color beard he wishes.
8. No, there is no proof of God, other than your hope.

Thanks for your sixth grade perspective. [/b][/quote]
Hobbes go to your satanic ritual you piece of s77t, thank&#39;s again for your very limited intellect, I for one have never spoke to a more narrow minded idiot....ummm I mean genius. You fascinate me with your intelligence, umm or lack of it. It must be good to be of legal drinking age for you???

[hobbes]

Satan is as unreal as your God. Do you have any idea what an agnostic is? Berating you is like smashing a pinata without the blindfold.

I find it interesting that you call me names, but my "evil" goal is that you evaluate those things you have been told to be true.

My "narrow" mind is not infested with the "rigorous beliefs of others".

Maybe, you are closed/narrow minded?

If you could rebut a single point, rather than holding on to the rhetoric you have been brainwashed with, we may be on the right track.

[protak]

Originally posted by hobbes@28 September 2003 - 09:02
If I have an alternate point of view, I am an "asshole". Do I call you any names for stating your belief, which I disagree with?

Religions are an invention by man to cushion this harsh reality we call "life".

Can you prove anything you say, or are you reciting what you have been told?
Yes in your sarcastic little way, which I for one find amusing, ( or interbred) pick your poison. No I will not berate you for an opinion, but when you insult me the gloves are definetely off. <_<

[hobbes]

What is the insult, maybe I can be more gracious?

[protak]

Originally posted by hobbes@28 September 2003 - 09:08
Satan is as unreal as your God. Do you have any idea what an agnostic is? Berating you is like smashing a pinata without the blindfold.

I find it interesting that you call me names, but my "evil" goal is that you evaluate those things you have been told to be true.

My "narrow" mind is not infested with the "rigorous beliefs of others".

Maybe, you are closed/narrow minded?

If you could rebut a single point, rather than holding on to the rhetoric you have been brainwashed with, we may be on the right track.
Satan is unreal???? Hello room service. I guess all these fucking idiots that rape, kill, sodomize, steal. rob....etc..etcc.. are not affected by the devil in anyway?? Maybe the dog told them to do it, same thing with manson, son of sam, dahmer, give me a break.

[hobbes]

Oh, I didn&#39;t realize that your were a total idiot. People who commit these acts are not normal people influenced by the devil, they are ill.

I would never do any of the above, regardless of encouragement.

Anybody other than idiot boy, please disagree.

Son, your concrete, brainwashed mentality is a waste of not only my time but the forums time.

Go clutch your Bible and pray happy thoughts.

JPAul what do you think?

Satan is unreal. Who really believes in Satan?

[Strutzy3]

Hi -
Im here to voice what i belief, describe it as best as i can and defend it as far up until faith stops me.

I am a devouted christian. I am an analytical teenager that understands how many questions are out there. I&#39;ve got several days of which i can sit and wonder about them in classes of mine. I&#39;ll ask that you don&#39;t immediately discredit me because i&#39;m younger than you. Hear me out..


look at this sentence from a logical point of view and I see contradiction, on one hand i&#39;m told "one lord" and another, told "three entities, the son, the father and the wholly spirit/ghost

I believe in the trinity. Yes, this is often a confusing issue. A good way to think of the trinity could be like a small company with three different ppl in the company while the company itself still holds one name. In some respects i agree that describing it the way the bible does can make me wonder why it seems to be depicted in a way that is harder for me to belief. But, on the other hand if in the bible I was told that more than one thing was going on in different places by one God i&#39;d have doubts because in my everyday life i don&#39;t deal with this concept of being almighty enough to be in more than one place at one as it&#39;s described.

I believe in right and wrong or also known as absolute truth. If you say to me that there is no absolute truth... you are contradicting yourself. By this I can be honest to myself and say yep, i haven&#39;t always done the right thing. i&#39;ve done things that are wrong, i&#39;ve sinned (or literally meaning missed the mark). So, I look for an answer. And I see that God is a pretty logical answer. It does take faith to belief but then again, have you looked at the stars lately?


My God doesn&#39;t rely on fear of going to Hell to make me live a good life, I know right from wrong and try to choose accordingly.
My God understands that faith wavers, and understands that I may question it&#39;s existence.

My God doesn&#39;t rely on fear to make me live a good life either. God does not use Hell as a motherly statement of "if you don&#39;t clean your room no cookies". He simply does us a favor by letting us know, hey, your living your life in sin, you&#39;re not perfect and it&#39;s leading you down a path of death. I love you enough that I&#39;m going to send my holy son to your world, to live with you, as a perfect human to show you that it can be done and to take your sins upon himself and die. Because he was sent by me, and given the authority to do this by me, it would be by my will that he would be a sacrifice for you.
My God understands that my faith wavers. That is why he doesn&#39;t say to me that after accepting that i&#39;m messed up and after i&#39;ve become a christian that he doesn&#39;t say that i can never sin again or i will have lost my chance. Heck, I&#39;d say that&#39;s why he is giving us a chance in the first place.

I am happy to see that you whom are all reading and are involved in this thread are at least pondering these ideas. It&#39;s been a long time since i&#39;ve seen things from a view not believing in God, but now that i do, seeing how intricate even I am, the stars, or a forest, I can&#39;t understand how i missed it. To possibly clear up any doubts on if there is a creator - i think of how i don&#39;t understand completely how i work but i do understand how a speaker works. I can say i&#39;ve never found a speaker in a remote area in the woods lying on the ground. If all you want to get out of what i have to say is that we didn&#39;t just come together by chance, then i&#39;ll be joyful for that.

Respond to me if you&#39;d like - i can&#39;t guarentee that i&#39;ll be able to check this thread to give you a response - so don&#39;t take offense. I enjoy talking about this stuff because my friends barely ever want to. Sry this got a little long.
- Strutzy3 - you can also email me if you&#39;d like

[protak]

Originally posted by hobbes@28 September 2003 - 09:23
Oh, I didn&#39;t realize that your were a total idiot. People who commit these acts are not normal people influenced by the devil, they are ill.

I would never do any of the above, regardless of encouragement.

Anybody other than idiot boy, please disagree.

Son, your concrete, brainwashed mentality is a waste of not only my time and the forums time.

Go clutch your Bible and pray happy thoughts.

JPAul what do you think?

Satan is unreal. Who really believes in Satan?
I&#39;m guessing 22 maybe 23, sit at mom and dads all day, no job, cant get one people really dont like you.... :lol: Maybe even a small time hacker, the mad little boy. Insult Jpaul then ask his opinion. Very good for the average person with a low iq. Like I said before"If you have no belief, Why are you so opinionated"?
Go to bed leave us thumpers alone...

[hobbes]

See Protak, this is how a true Christian responds. He is not defensive, he does not call names. He wants to draw you into his world so the topic can be discussed. If you leave unbelieving, he will have pity on your soul and not degrade you with critical words.

Such is the true disicple of God.

[hobbes]

Insult Jpaul? We do disagree on a case by case basis, but we respect one another in the big picture, of this I have no doubt.

He and I have traded exchanges for awhile. I want to know what he thinks of your defense of Christianity.

I imagine he would embarassed.

Please notice that I have not posted my age, accomplishmnets, or IQ, I think my posts speak for themselves.

As a non-Christian, I have made no asssumptions about you, why do you feel the need to make them about me?

[protak]

Originally posted by Strutzy3@28 September 2003 - 09:28
Hi -
Im here to voice what i belief, describe it as best as i can and defend it as far up until faith stops me.

I am a devouted christian. I am an analytical teenager that understands how many questions are out there. I&#39;ve got several days of which i can sit and wonder about them in classes of mine. I&#39;ll ask that you don&#39;t immediately discredit me because i&#39;m younger than you. Hear me out..


look at this sentence from a logical point of view and I see contradiction, on one hand i&#39;m told "one lord" and another, told "three entities, the son, the father and the wholly spirit/ghost

I believe in the trinity. Yes, this is often a confusing issue. A good way to think of the trinity could be like a small company with three different ppl in the company while the company itself still holds one name. In some respects i agree that describing it the way the bible does can make me wonder why it seems to be depicted in a way that is harder for me to belief. But, on the other hand if in the bible I was told that more than one thing was going on in different places by one God i&#39;d have doubts because in my everyday life i don&#39;t deal with this concept of being almighty enough to be in more than one place at one as it&#39;s described.

I believe in right and wrong or also known as absolute truth. If you say to me that there is no absolute truth... you are contradicting yourself. By this I can be honest to myself and say yep, i haven&#39;t always done the right thing. i&#39;ve done things that are wrong, i&#39;ve sinned (or literally meaning missed the mark). So, I look for an answer. And I see that God is a pretty logical answer. It does take faith to belief but then again, have you looked at the stars lately?


My God doesn&#39;t rely on fear of going to Hell to make me live a good life, I know right from wrong and try to choose accordingly.
My God understands that faith wavers, and understands that I may question it&#39;s existence.

My God doesn&#39;t rely on fear to make me live a good life either. God does not use Hell as a motherly statement of "if you don&#39;t clean your room no cookies". He simply does us a favor by letting us know, hey, your living your life in sin, you&#39;re not perfect and it&#39;s leading you down a path of death. I love you enough that I&#39;m going to send my holy son to your world, to live with you, as a perfect human to show you that it can be done and to take your sins upon himself and die. Because he was sent by me, and given the authority to do this by me, it would be by my will that he would be a sacrifice for you.
My God understands that my faith wavers. That is why he doesn&#39;t say to me that after accepting that i&#39;m messed up and after i&#39;ve become a christian that he doesn&#39;t say that i can never sin again or i will have lost my chance. Heck, I&#39;d say that&#39;s why he is giving us a chance in the first place.

I am happy to see that you whom are all reading and are involved in this thread are at least pondering these ideas. It&#39;s been a long time since i&#39;ve seen things from a view not believing in God, but now that i do, seeing how intricate even I am, the stars, or a forest, I can&#39;t understand how i missed it. To possibly clear up any doubts on if there is a creator - i think of how i don&#39;t understand completely how i work but i do understand how a speaker works. I can say i&#39;ve never found a speaker in a remote area in the woods lying on the ground. If all you want to get out of what i have to say is that we didn&#39;t just come together by chance, then i&#39;ll be joyful for that.

Respond to me if you&#39;d like - i can&#39;t guarentee that i&#39;ll be able to check this thread to give you a response - so don&#39;t take offense. I enjoy talking about this stuff because my friends barely ever want to. Sry this got a little long.
- Strutzy3 - you can also email me if you&#39;d like
Strutzy well spoken mate.....Amen&#33;&#33; :) :D

[hobbes]

see above

[protak]

Originally posted by hobbes@28 September 2003 - 09:40
Insult Jpaul? We do disagree on a case by case basis, but we respect one another in the big picture, of this I have no doubt.

He and I have traded exchanges for awhile. I want to know what he thinks of your defense of Christianity.

I imagine he would embarassed.

Please notice that I have not posted my age, accomplishmnets, or IQ, I think my posts speak for themselves.

As a non-Christian, I have made no asssumptions about you, why do you feel the need to make them about me?
Yes insult J-Paul.
Who said I was defendig christianity?
If He&#39;s embarressed oh well..
You dont have to post your age or accomplishments or iq. YES your posts speak volumes...
Yes you have made assumptions about me, you assume I&#39;m a christian...

[hobbes]

Originally posted by protak+28 September 2003 - 10:52--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (protak &#064; 28 September 2003 - 10:52)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@28 September 2003 - 09:40
Insult Jpaul?&nbsp; We do disagree on a case by case basis, but we respect one another in the big picture, of this I have no doubt.

He and I have traded exchanges for awhile.&nbsp; I want to know what he thinks of your defense of Christianity.

I imagine he would embarassed.

Please notice that I have not posted my age, accomplishmnets, or IQ, I think my posts speak for themselves.

As a non-Christian, I have made no asssumptions about you, why do you feel the need to make them about me?
Yes insult J-Paul.
Who said I was defendig christianity?
If He&#39;s embarressed oh well..
You dont have to post your age or accomplishments or iq. YES your posts speak volumes...
Yes you have made assumptions about me, you assume I&#39;m a christian...[/b][/quote]
Well, since I can integrate the threads and that you have professed that your God is Jesus, I would figure to be right.

Amazing that I can retain all that&#33;

As for my posts, they are about many things, the most salient thing you should notice is that your friend, Billy Dean, who has no affection for me, has not come to your aid in either thread. Nor has JPaul. Here is the prior thread.

http://www.klboard.ath.cx/index.php?showto...ndpost&p=516414 (http://www.klboard.ath.cx/index.php?showtopic=67931&view=findpost&p=516414)

Again, how exactly have I insulted JPAul? Evidence rather than words would be nice.

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by hobbes@28 September 2003 - 19:08
As for my posts, they are about many things, the most salient thing you should notice is that your friend, Billy Dean, who has no affection for me, has not come to your aid in either thread. Nor has JPaul.
Two points to raise here;

1. Tim being a friend does not mean I agree with anything or everything he says. I have never hidden the fact that I don&#39;t believe in gods, religions or afterlives. So I am unlikely to defend his religious views. I have felt the urge, however, to say something about the ridicule you use as a tactic when arguing with people, but Tim is well capable of looking after himself, therefore there was no need to intervene.


Thanks for your sixth grade perspective.
The first insult?


4. Yes, we are stealing on P2P, maybe you should tell devout Catholic JPaul about this.
The JP insult?

2. I am, in fact, quite fond of Hobbes.




:)

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@28 September 2003 - 11:59


Tim is well capable of looking after himself, therefore there was no need to intervene.



Billy,

The sixth grade comment was a rebuttal to him telling me to grow up.

I wanted to see if "turn the other cheek" boy would, in fact, take the noble pathway. I tempted him, like the Devil.

Well, he returned fire calling me an "asshole".

Rhetoric-1 Understanding-0

He then called me a Devil worshipper.

He then topped himself by calling for "room service" for whatever reason.

He then called me stupid, angry, dependent, unemployed, a hacker, and unliked.

I responded with nothing but a reminder that he might not be understanding what he has been told and complimenting Strutz on a more constructive approach to challenge.

Again Billy, you may have missed that our man of God fired the first insult, maybe that didn&#39;t show up on your computer. Your reply hardly was fair and balanced, in fact it was a downright deception.

At any rate Rhetoric won 8-nil over Understanding. Boy doesn&#39;t even practice what he preaches.



PS: If I ever defend myself in such a manner as Protak, would someone please call 911 for me and have plenty of blood available for transfusions.

[Billy_Dean]

Ah, Hobbesy, I see you&#39;ve followed my lead and used a real photo of yourself as your avatar. I&#39;m a bit worried about the "Left Wing" French attire tho&#39;&#33;


Again Billy, you may have missed that our man of God fired the first insult, maybe that didn&#39;t show up on your computer. Your reply hardly was fair and balanced, in fact it was a downright deception.

Did he? I must have missed that one, do point it out. My intention was to point out how you, more often than not, play the man. Maybe I should call it "Gridiron Syndrome"

I think you miss an important point here, this is not my argument, it&#39;s between you and Tim, you brought me into it to mock him.


:)

[nikita69]

thx Strutzy3 for the post, i&#39;m still not clear about it, yet i respect ur attempt. Billy_dean, maybe if we ask about the source/origination of the bible(s) that is being followed today may help better. Or, if we ask about the Original book that several Christians and Scholars have found that it was not written by humans, and hidden in Israel. :)

[Snee]

http://www.chinkii.com/uploads/album/misc/god-jesus.jpg

[clocker]

Originally posted by nikita69@28 September 2003 - 11:11
Or, if we ask about the Original book that several Christians and Scholars have found that it was not written by humans, and hidden in Israel. :)
Now I&#39;m intrigued...

[Biggles]

I thought it was the chap (name escapes me) who had special glasses to read his bible that had one from divine sources. (I can never remember if he founded the Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses or the Mormons.)

Are you referring to the Dead Sea scrolls? They were written by Essenes - weird perhaps, but decidely human. Their synthesis of Zarathustrian mysticism and classical Judaism was considered heretical by the mainstream Jewish scholars and they tended to live in isolated communities.

Their teachings had a direct read across to Christianity and there has been some suggestions that both John the Baptist and Jesus were Essenes.

[bigboab]

I was thinking of starting Peoples Rights Against Theologians Society but I am having second thoughts about it.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by bigboab@29 September 2003 - 00:43
I was thinking of starting Peoples Rights Against Theologians Society but I am having second thoughts about it.
Bad acronym old bean.

[Billy_Dean]

The Nag Hamadi scrolls maybe ..

The Gospel of Thomas. (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html)


The Gnostic Society. (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html)


:)

[Suicyco247]

Originally posted by Suicyco247@26 September 2003 - 00:51


In short, I believe in a &#39;higher power&#39; what this is, I&#39;m not really sure, what I do know is that my God is perfect.
My God doesn&#39;t demand worship, it does not spite me, or cause me hardships, or test my faith, as has the &#39;Christian God&#39;.
My God provides solace when my will is weak and comfort when I need it.
My God doesn&#39;t rely on fear of going to Hell to make me live a good life, I know right from wrong and try to choose accordingly.
My God understands that faith wavers, and understands that I may question it&#39;s existence.

If the Christian Bible is right, then I will burn in Hell for my beliefs, but I will burn knowing that I lived a good life that was not based on fear, but one based on doing the best I can to help make the world a better place for all, not just those that agree with me.
I still believe my faith to be true, God is in what you believe. I don&#39;t think there is a right or wrong answer, to me it is the faith that you believe in, a &#39;higher power&#39; whatever that may be. Prayer does have power, regardless of the &#39;God&#39; you pray to.

Having faith in something is power. I may be agnostic in my beliefs, but I am still very spiritual in soul. To me, believing in something is better than believing in nothing. My God is no better than your God, Islam is no better than Christianity. It is believing in something that holds the true power. To submit to something more than you understand is faith, regardless of what that is.

I don&#39;t need a book to know right from wrong, I know such things in my heart. Because I don&#39;t believe the same thing as you does not make me evil. I was raised &#39;Christian&#39; and rejected it because I can&#39;t believe in a &#39;God&#39; that rules by fear.

[Strutzy3]

I don&#39;t think there is a right or wrong answer,
You are saying that there is no absolute truth.... right? ( i said this next statement on pg 4 too)
If you say that statement - there is no absolute truth - you are contradicting yourself. Thus there has to be right and wrong.

I don&#39;t believe the same thing as you does not make me evil.
I&#39;m sorry if people lead you to believe that you&#39;re evil because you are thinking for yourself and working it out.

I was raised &#39;Christian&#39; and rejected it because I can&#39;t believe in a &#39;God&#39; that rules by fear.
In this message board it has been said many times that God rules by fear... I can&#39;t see how he rules by fear... the only thing i can see that he rules by is love.
When one of my buddies lets me know that one road goes off a cliff and another takes me safely away - i consider that love. it&#39;s not that my friend is ruling me by fear and saying if you don&#39;t believe what i&#39;m saying the punishment will be that i&#39;ll go off the cliff. the consequence would be that i go off the cliff - my friend didn&#39;t make the roadway - you&#39;re next likely question could be: are you saying that God didn&#39;t create everything? - then you christian have lied in the past no, God in his very nature, being perfect and holy can&#39;t sit on a poopstained seat (streaked with sin) so that&#39;s why he does us a loving favor by letting us know that yeah you really are not clean and allowing us a way to be clean by giving us the option to believe in his son and have our sins forgiven completely.

Last reply to your post:

I don&#39;t need a book to know right from wrong, I know such things in my heart
I know that same feeling that i know right and wrong in my heart. Where though, do you think that those feelings came from. From past generations? where did they get them from... and if we originated as monkeys - was it all just random? I think we got it from somewhere - there had to have been a... template if you will for what&#39;s right / wrong - if there is no template for right and wrong and it really was just random, those random implants in our hearts wouldn&#39;t be aboslute - going back to the idea that you can&#39;t violate the absolute truth phrase.

I know my chances getting you to see what i&#39;m talking about aren&#39;t all that great by me trying to prove you wrong. I&#39;m just trying to get you to open up your heart because be a closed heart it wouldn&#39;t matter what I decided to say to you.

(btw - i think i might be using analyogies too often - let me know)

[CocoColaNut824]

Faith can be as easy or complex as one makes it out to be. Most fears are instilled by one&#39;s own guilt or insecurities. Not by God. Many scholars try to interperet Christianity in so many complex ways. What it boils down to is pretty simple when it comes to Christianity. It is not ceremonious.. Even Jesus himself rebelled against
many of the traditional Jewish laws, customs and ceremonies. Though he did not "change" the important fundamentals of the religion, just put it back into perspective. Not saying that one shouldn&#39;t go to church, it is good to be among fellow Christians in a community... but it&#39;s more important to keep your own "church" within yourself. Faith shouldn&#39;t be "worked on" for profit.. and yes, I&#39;m talking about some of the evangelists. Faith has nothing to do with being discriminate. We are all the same in God&#39;s eyes.

So with all the scholars, etc and their studying... it boils down to these simple rules... It is not at all confusing, scary or complex. You don&#39;t need to study and memorize each verse and quote from the bible especially if used to attack one another. I see that quite a bit. By the way, that tactic was used by many of the scribes and pharysees to attack Jesus. Christianity is not hyprocritic. One shouldn&#39;t claim
that one goes to church every Sunday, claim that one is a total Christian and then go home and beat up his wife and kids in a drunken rage. Christianity simply is to follow the commandments, though Jesus added one more... that is to love one another as you would love yourself. To forgive those that hurt you... In a way, psychologically speaking, to forgive IS better for yourself than to harbor hate whether you are a Christian or not. Hate will eat you alive if you let it. What Jesus meant by turning the other cheek... it symbolized when one is slapped back-hand... that is a degrading gesture, back then that is how slaves were punished, but when one offers the other side to be slapped fronthand... that elevates one to be on a higher respective level. Not saying we should all be mats to be walked on, beat up, etc. but to face the one who is trying to degrade us by showing them that we are somewhat on a higher level than they are. That&#39;s pretty much it... And it is not uncommon to doubt faith... many have done that. Where do you think the term "Doubting Thomas" came from?
God Bless,
Chrissy

[thewizeard]

Is God perfect?

Well think of this. Presuming God did create all, for the sake of this argument...

Right from the very beginning of &#39;His&#39; creation, everything started going wrong. His most &#39;important&#39; creature disobeys &#39; him&#39;? He creates a &#39;Devil&#39;.... Gives people free will; that&#39;s a good way to shift the blame...No, this can not be a creation of God, if it were it would equally be perfect. As we all can see and experience this world is far from perfect. More like a creation of the Devil.

Did then the Devil create this world?
Observe what goes on in this world. The raping of women and children. Wars, murder... do I have to go on?
This would be the only obvious creator, if you believe in God.

The question is, if we were created by God, how the hell did we slip down here.

[CocoColaNut824]

Satan was once an angel that rebelled against God to gain power and was sent down.
As for all the evil that is in the world today... that is where "free will" comes in. That was always God&#39;s way for us... we are not forced.
God is not responsible for what actions we take... we are. But along with all that evil there is also quite a lot of good.

[thewizeard]

No, that does not wash. God being all seeing all knowing could not possibly have made such a mistake. It would make Him allmost human.

[CocoColaNut824]

But it&#39;s not God&#39;s mistake.... it&#39;s OURS... God does not predict our fate. Or is in control of our fate so it can&#39;t be God&#39;s "mistake". Robin Williams once put it in a way you may understand in one of his stand up comedian shows.. He put it in a
pretending, funny way as if he was God... "I gave you a beautiful world... and you ?&#@<&#39;ed it all up&#33;" :rolleyes: We and only we are responsible for our own actions.

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by CocoColaNut824@1 October 2003 - 09:27
But it&#39;s not God&#39;s mistake.... it&#39;s OURS... God does not predict our fate. Or is in control of our fate so it can&#39;t be God&#39;s "mistake". Robin Williams once put it in a way you may understand in one of his stand up comedian shows.. He put it in a
pretending, funny way as if he was God... "I gave you a beautiful world... and you ?&#@<&#39;ed it all up&#33;" :rolleyes: We and only we are responsible for our own actions.
If I create something, then I am responsible for it. God would/should have &#39;seen&#39; what his creation was going to do right from the very beginning. Letting it happen and knowing that it would happen, would make Him responsible.Therefore God could not possibly be the Creator. As I said earlier giving people &#39;free-wil&#39; is only shifting the responsibility from the Creator to mankind.

This is the reason why I believe that this creation has got nothing to do with God whatsoever. In fact it would be an insult to God to suggest that he created something so imperfect....

But there you go, billions of people, all with their own beliefs&#33;

[CocoColaNut824]

My goodness, you didn&#39;t have to scroll down... :huh:
But anyway... you are entitled to having your own "free will". And no, we are not
perfect. But maybe it&#39;s OUR job to try to become more perfect before we go to another, much better place. Unless we don&#39;t choose to. We are not puppets, and God doesn&#39;t hold the strings. We are not God&#39;s "toys".

Well anyway, like I said, you&#39;re entitled to having your own "free will". You have that choice, it&#39;s yours to do with it what you will. I&#39;m not here to try to convince
you... you need to only convince yourself what destiny is best for you. Good, bad or denial. That choice is yours and yours alone. And only you can make that choice. Choose wisely.
Good luck
Chrissy

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by CocoColaNut824@1 October 2003 - 10:28
That choice is yours and yours alone. And only you can make that choice. Choose wisely.
Good luck
Chrissy
Thanks Chrissy, I believe I have already made a wise choice; I choose to rely on another human attribute... common sense.

I wish you also good luck,
Nigel.

[human_pet]

Originally posted by nigel123+1 October 2003 - 08:47--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nigel123 &#064; 1 October 2003 - 08:47)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CocoColaNut824@1 October 2003 - 09:27
But it&#39;s not God&#39;s mistake.... it&#39;s OURS... God does not predict our fate. Or is in control of our fate so it can&#39;t be God&#39;s "mistake". Robin Williams once put it in a way you may understand in one of his stand up comedian shows.. He put it in a
pretending, funny way as if he was God... "I gave you a beautiful world... and you ?&#@<&#39;ed it all up&#33;" :rolleyes:&nbsp; We and only we are responsible for our own actions.
If I create something, then I am responsible for it. God would/should have &#39;seen&#39; what his creation was going to do right from the very beginning. Letting it happen and knowing that it would happen, would make Him responsible.Therefore God could not possibly be the Creator. As I said earlier giving people &#39;free-wil&#39; is only shifting the responsibility from the Creator to mankind.

This is the reason why I believe that this creation has got nothing to do with God whatsoever. In fact it would be an insult to God to suggest that he created something so imperfect....

But there you go, billions of people, all with their own beliefs&#33; [/b][/quote]
I would have gladly reply to your post (accordingly to my religion&#39;s view of God) but since this topic is about Christianity,I&#39;ll give the christians to debate you on your claims...

Oh yeah nearly forgot about this...

Salam/Peace and may God give us all guidance to His Path

[J'Pol]

I know it&#39;s a poor analogy nigel. But if we give our own Children free will and they grow up and then do things which we do not approve of or are illegal, or immoral. Who is to blame, us or the person who does wrong.

I think the bottom line is that if everything was predetermined then there really wouldn&#39;t be very much point to it. People take a whole linear time approach to these questions, so to say that God knows what is going to happen only works if you assume time moves in a straight line from start to finish.

However if God lives outside of space and time, then that analogy does not work. To try to express God in terms of human understanding will inevitably fail, hence my apology for the opening analogy.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by JPaul@1 October 2003 - 13:32
I know it&#39;s a poor analogy nigel. But if we give our own Children free will and they grow up and then do things which we do not approve of or are illegal, or immoral. Who is to blame, us or the person who does wrong.

I think the bottom line is that if everything was predetermined then there really wouldn&#39;t be very much point to it. People take a whole linear time approach to these questions, so to say that God knows what is going to happen only works if you assume time moves in a straight line from start to finish.

However if God lives outside of space and time, then that analogy does not work. To try to express God in terms of human understanding will inevitably fail, hence my apology for the opening analogy.
Nicely stated, sir. ;)

[lynx]

It seems to me that there are plenty of examples in the bible where god denies free will to mankind - the flood, sodom to name just two. I&#39;m sure there are those here who can find more (possibly better) examples.

I don&#39;t mind if believers want to pick and choose which parts of the bible they want to accept, but since they often seem reticent to declare which bits are true and which bits aren&#39;t (or even worse adapt their acceptance depending on the topic) they shouldn&#39;t be surprised when people think their subsequent arguments lack credibility.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by lynx@1 October 2003 - 19:53
It seems to me that there are plenty of examples in the bible where god denies free will to mankind - the flood, sodom to name just two. I&#39;m sure there are those here who can find more (possibly better) examples.

I don&#39;t mind if believers want to pick and choose which parts of the bible they want to accept, but since they often seem reticent to declare which bits are true and which bits aren&#39;t (or even worse adapt their acceptance depending on the topic) they shouldn&#39;t be surprised when people think their subsequent arguments lack credibility.
I hear what you say and fully appreciate that. However I personally take different parts of the bible in different ways. As I have stated more often than I care to remember, it is not my intention to explain my religious beliefs in great detail.

However as an example I personally do not believe that all of mankind came from Adam and Eve. I more accept the evolution theory. I take the story to be just that, a story designed to be understood by people and to explain things to them. A sort of where did we come from, on a global scale, story

However I take the new testament and the story of Jesus&#39; life to be more literal, obviously on occasion He himself uses stories to explain things to his followers. However the essential parts like his death and resurrection I take to be literally true.

What is important to me is that Christ taught us certain things and that if we follow those things, believing that he was the Son of God then that is the path to His Kingdom in Heaven.

All he really said was be nice and don&#39;t do shitty things to each other. Oh and say hello to God once in a while.

This post has been brought to you by the word however.

These are the views of JPaul and do not necessarily represent the views of this forum

[Rat Faced]

Guy called Smith started the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) off i believe, and the Johovahs Witnesses were a break away from that church.

Great fun getting missionaries from both churches in the house at the same time....everyone should try it ;)

Battlestar Galactica was based on the book of Mormon....... there is todays trivia.


For me;

If "God" is so perfect, then i wont insult "him" by assuming i know how "he" wishes to be worshipped, as worshipping "him" at all assumes "he" has an ego that needs to be scratched, and is therefore imperfect......

If "he" is so forgiving, then i&#39;ll just try and be as nice a guy as i can, and "he&#39;ll" forgive me any indiscressions.

If not, then to be quite honest, "he&#39;s" not the type id like to spend eternity with anyway.....




The Goddess understands this, im sure

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@1 October 2003 - 22:07


If "he" is so forgiving, then i&#39;ll just try and be as nice a guy as i can, and "he&#39;ll" forgive me any indiscressions.


A humanist. I like humanists they are always easy to get along with.

I&#39;m sure God has set a wee bit of heaven aside for them. It&#39;s not the good seats, but what can you do.

You can join in when we are leaughing at the atheists and saying to the agnostics, if you could only have taken just a wee bit on trust.

[lynx]

Originally posted by JPaul+1 October 2003 - 21:39--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 1 October 2003 - 21:39)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@1 October 2003 - 22:07


If "he" is so forgiving, then i&#39;ll just try and be as nice a guy as i can, and "he&#39;ll" forgive me any indiscressions.


A humanist. I like humanists they are always easy to get along with.

I&#39;m sure God has set a wee bit of heaven aside for them. It&#39;s not the good seats, but what can you do.

You can join in when we are leaughing at the atheists and saying to the agnostics, if you could only have taken just a wee bit on trust. [/b][/quote]
That&#39;s a bit harsh.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by lynx+1 October 2003 - 23:11--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lynx @ 1 October 2003 - 23:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by JPaul@1 October 2003 - 21:39
<!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@1 October 2003 - 22:07


If "he" is so forgiving, then i&#39;ll just try and be as nice a guy as i can, and "he&#39;ll" forgive me any indiscressions.


A humanist. I like humanists they are always easy to get along with.

I&#39;m sure God has set a wee bit of heaven aside for them. It&#39;s not the good seats, but what can you do.

You can join in when we are leaughing at the atheists and saying to the agnostics, if you could only have taken just a wee bit on trust.
That&#39;s a bit harsh. [/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t believe h4r5h exists.

So you will have to prove it does. Using scientific evidence, which is totally ill-equipped to deal with the frame of reference within which this mythical h4r5h would have to exist.

[thewizeard]

Well don&#39;t get toooo comfortable in those seats&#33; According to Buddhist philosophy heaven exists. However, one is destined to stay only a short space of time(49.999 days) in heaven before one will be reborn here back on Earth on the 50th day&#33;

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by nigel123@2 October 2003 - 00:04
Well don&#39;t get toooo comfortable in those seats&#33; According to Buddhist philosophy heaven exists. However, one is destined to stay only a short space of time(49.999 days) in heaven before one will be reborn here back on Earth on the 50th day&#33;
Philosophy is cool, but Theology can beat it up any day of the week.

Does Theology only relate to deitys. The etymology just occurred to me.

[loz]

Originally posted by JPaul@1 October 2003 - 21:39
You can join in when we are leaughing at the atheists and saying to the agnostics, if you could only have taken just a wee bit on trust.
You may be laughing at the athiests in heaven, but most of them are laughing at you now.

[thewizeard]

Strangely, there are very many Buddhist Deity&#39;s. Very basically, during ones life time one is indeed confronted with gods. The truth turns out to be that they are all different aspects of one&#39;s character. If you become, during your lifetime, &#39;enlightened&#39; then you realize during your death, that they are just your own fears, hopes and projections. Knowing this truth you then become a Buddha. Hopefully this realization occurs way before one dies.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by loz+2 October 2003 - 00:07--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (loz &#064; 2 October 2003 - 00:07)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@1 October 2003 - 21:39
You can join in when we are leaughing at the atheists and saying to the agnostics, if you could only have taken just a wee bit on trust.
You may be laughing at the athiests in heaven, but most of them are laughing at you now. [/b][/quote]
Cool, I&#39;ll take that deal.

They can laugh at me for 70 years or so, even tho&#39; I respect their right to believe what they want (indeed support it) and just ask the same from them.

Then I get the rest of eternity, that seems fair enough.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by nigel123@2 October 2003 - 00:19
Strangely, there are very many Buddhist Deity&#39;s. Very basically, during ones life time one is indeed confronted with gods. The truth turns out to be that they are all different aspects of one&#39;s character. If you become, during your lifetime, &#39;enlightened&#39; then you realize during your death, that they are just your own fears, hopes and projections. Knowing this truth you then become a Buddha. Hopefully this realization occurs way before one dies.
I would love to pretend I understand that and nod sagely.

However I can&#39;t and probably now feel the same way that others feel when they read my posts.

EDIT - forgive this, but the apostrophe (Deity&#39;s) would mean belonging to Deity. My Deitys is almost certainly equaly incorrect. Deities is probably correct, someone can let us know the real pluralisation (which may or may not be a real word).

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by JPaul+2 October 2003 - 00:23--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul &#064; 2 October 2003 - 00:23)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-nigel123@2 October 2003 - 00:19
Strangely, there are very many Buddhist Deity&#39;s. Very basically, during ones life time one is indeed confronted with gods. The truth turns out to be that they are all different aspects of one&#39;s character. If you become, during your lifetime, &#39;enlightened&#39; then you realize during your death, that they are just your own fears, hopes and projections. Knowing this truth you then become a Buddha. Hopefully this realization occurs way before one dies.
I would love to pretend I understand that and nod sagely.

However I can&#39;t and probably now feel the same way that others feel when they read my posts.

EDIT - forgive this, but the apostrophe (Deity&#39;s) would mean belonging to Deity. My Deitys is almost certainly equally incorrect. Deities is probably correct, someone can let us know the real pluralisation (which may or may not be a real word). [/b][/quote]
Luckily if that realization does not occur, one gets another chance in ones next life.

Incidentally, Jesus is considered to be a Buddha. There are many practicing Christian Buddhists in the world.

I believe you are correct in spelling Deity&#39;s, Deities...


Edit: N.B. Remember the last words that Jesus said on the cross. There is a story in Tibet that Jesus, during his youth, visited Tibet. He was trained by a Lama, Lama Sabachthani. I am not sure of the correct spelling. These were the last words that Jesus uttered. He was calling for his Lama. A very natural thing for a Budhhist to do when he/she is dying.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by nigel123@2 October 2003 - 00:35


There are many practicing Christian Buddhists in the world.


Are any of them good at it yet.

Seriously though, I have sympathised with that view oft times. I don&#39;t see the two as necessarily being mutually exclusive.

I remain undecided on this one, would this be considered a type of Christian / Buddhism agnosticism.

What dreams may come - the movie, not the Hamlet quote. If you have seen the movie you will understand the Christian / Budhist reference.

To sleep perhaps to dream, aye there&#39;s the rub,
for in that sleep of death what dreams may come.

[J'Pol]

Didn&#39;t he say "forgive them father, they know not what they do".

Perhaps you mis-heard Abba, Abba as Lama, Lama.

[thewizeard]

All I can say is that I hope people will consider the possibility. Buddha prophesied that 500 years after his death a new Buddha would manifest, to help get people back on the tracks. 500 years after Buddha died Jesus was born.

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by JPaul@2 October 2003 - 01:04
Didn&#39;t he say "forgive them father, they know not what they do".

Perhaps you mis-heard Abba, Abba as Lama, Lama.
That is the English transltion of Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachtani. He was heard to say Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachtani. This is then translated into, "My God,my God, why have you forsaken me.

The very question I keep asking, why have You, forsaken us?

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by nigel123@2 October 2003 - 01:12
All I can say is that I hope people will consider the possibility. Buddha prophesied that 500 years after his death a new Buddha would manifest, to help get people back on the tracks. 500 years after Buddha died Jesus was born.
I, for one will consider all possibilities mate.

There are more things in heaven and earth Horatio than are dreamt of in your philosophy .

I like the cut of your jib nigel, you appear open to the unpossible.

Though I have to say that, as I recall 3 of the 4 Gospels give an account of His last words. Again as I recall they are all different.

Edit ; Perhaps that is why the version you quote is different from mine.

[comdoc]

My Christianity is this and only this:
Love God above all things
Love my neighbor as I do myself

The depth of these two statements goes beyond religion, theism, bible and anything else.

Who is my neighbor?
You are. My cat is. The raccoon in my front yard is. Sadaam, the Ayatola and Idi Amin are. The planet is. Saturn, Proxima Centauri and M83 and their residents are.

Who is God?
It is an entity, not a person, not a male or a female, more than a being.

Not a majician. Not supernatural. ("Any technology that is sufficiently advanced will appear to be majic.")

Not in heaven in terms of being 100 miles up or 100 light years up. In Heaven in terms of being not just 3 dimensional but residing in a minimum of 4 dimensions. That 4th dimension, not time, but a spacial dimension perpendicular to our known 3. It is it&#39;s multidimensionality that gives it it&#39;s power. (read Flatland by Edwin A. Abbott)

Not omniscient, or prescient. Otherwise there is no free will. The bible shows this to be true. As it learned more about the psychology of it&#39;s creation (us) and as our psychology changed as we grew (homo erectus, homo habilus, homo sapiens) it changed from a shamanic god, a god of vengeance, an old testament god, to a god of loveand grace, a new testament god

Not omnipresent, but able to be anywhere. After all it is multidimensional and thus able to fold space like we can fold paper. (see Flatland)

Not omnipotent, but much more powerful than we will ever be. (until we are resurrected into multidimensional beings/entities)

[Strutzy3]

No, that does not wash. God being all seeing all knowing could not possibly have made such a mistake. It would make Him allmost human.
Here, which would you rather have... a bunch of drones that are forced to love you because are making them by not giving them free choice to do what they want OR some (not all) people love you, people that are saying that they are willingly loving you . Personally i don&#39;t like the idea of forcing someone to like me - it wouldn&#39;t be real and i wouldn&#39;t feel good. But, obviously by giving someone the choice to do either right or wrong, not everyone will go the same way on a topic like religion. God decided he&#39;d rather have people willingly choose to do the right thing or not than forcing everyone to be robots. That&#39;s not a mistake - that&#39;s love - on any given day i would rather have freedom to do what i wanted to right or wrong than be forced to do one thing all the time.

- Strutzy3

[Calvarian2003]

Billy Dean. I only started looking at this board today and already you&#39;ve proven without a doubt how accurate your &#39;ranking&#39; is. Don&#39;t you have anything better to do than antagonise the beliefs of good people?

And I take offense to your reference to the &#39;judeo-christian-islamic&#39; faith. Islam is nothing like Judaism or Christianity, and here&#39;s why:

http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christia...d_the_koran.htm (http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christian/_articles/islam_and_the_koran.htm)

and,

http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christia...%26mohammed.htm (http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christian/_articles/islam%26mohammed.htm)

and finally,

http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christia...am_peaceful.htm (http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christian/_articles/islam_peaceful.htm)

Be sure to ask if you need more proof, as I would be happy to oblige. There is no shortage of the facts relating to Islam being the most militant, VIOLENT religion in the history of mankind.

I am in awe of the ignorance perpetuated on this forum. And your quiz, whilst interesting, means little since many of the quotes are taken out of context or with no knowledge of their greater meaning.

I thorougly recommend you visit this website and get your facts straight:

www.ucg.org

And as for all the other naysayers, agnostics, atheists and the rest on this forum, it will do all of you good to know that 5/6 of the world population are religious. Given, most of those people believe in fictitious gods, but the point remains that atheists are in the vast MINORITY.

It never ceases to amaze me how atheists immediately lay claim to a sense of superiority over me upon learning of my religious beliefs, even though a great number of them are so poorly informed on the subject or can&#39;t even pass a high school chemistry class. Pathetic.

Here is a fantastic quote which every atheist should take heed of:

"In order to make a statement such as &#39;there is no gold in China&#39;, one must know EVERYTHING there is to know about China and its culture, landscape, and people: whether there is gold in any single river, whether any of the millions of people there own one speck of gold jewellery, etc. It is quite nearly impossible to know all these facts; so one cannot reasonably make the assumption that there is no gold in China. However, one can easily make the claim that there IS gold in China. The same thing goes with the existence of God. One must know everything about the universe and it&#39;s creation - and believe me, that&#39;s a lot of knowledge you must have&#33; To deny the existence of God is to claim, essentially, that YOU are God, and know every single detail of the universe in order to claim that nowhere in the entire universe does God exist."

And considering that most of the atheists I talk to haven&#39;t even reached their twenties, just illustrates the disgusting pride and arrogance of such people. In short, &#39;Billy Dean&#39; if you can&#39;t say anything nice, keep your mouth shut. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and your antagonistic bullying is childish to the extreme.

[Billy_Dean]

&#39;Billy Dean&#39; if you can&#39;t say anything nice, keep your mouth shut. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and your antagonistic bullying is childish to the extreme.
Hahaha&#33; Thank you Calvarian, you&#39;ve made my day, I knew there was someone like you out there somewhere, what took you so long?


And I take offense to your reference to the &#39;judeo-christian-islamic&#39; faith. Islam is nothing like Judaism or Christianity, and here&#39;s why:
And as for this Ill informed remark, let&#39;s see how much support YOU get&#33;


:)

Edit: (For JP) added the question mark.

[Calvarian2003]

Thanks BD. I look forward to proving you wrong in our future discussions. And as for the support of the people on this board, who needs it&#33;

PS I can&#39;t imagine what took me so long either. But I just couldn&#39;t in my conscience leave this board without defending the underdog (which is clearly Christianity in this case&#33;)

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by Calvarian2003@2 October 2003 - 17:29
Thanks BD. I look forward to proving you wrong in our future discussions. And as for the support of the people on this board, who needs it&#33;

PS I can&#39;t imagine what took me so long either. But I just couldn&#39;t in my conscience leave this board without defending the underdog (which is clearly Christianity in this case&#33;)
When you point to "hate" sites to defend christianity, you are doing yourself and your faith a disservice.

As an aside, if you are under the misconception that I am about to defend islam, think again, ALL religions are rubbish. The abolition of religion should be the world&#39;s number one goal. It&#39;s finished, over, it served it&#39;s purpose, time to get rid of it&#33; Religion is the cause of most of the conflict and suffering in the world.

This is not to deny someone a "spiritual" life.



:)

[Calvarian2003]

How &#39;tolerant&#39; of you BD&#33; The Freedom FROM Religion group you posted from sure are worthy of their name. Thank you for proving once and for all that&#39;s it atheists like yourself who are the real bigots.

First you criticise the fact that every religion claims to be the only correct one. And you respond, oh so superior, with exactly the same inclination&#33; You see, atheism is itself a belief system. Atheists are attempting to convert to people to their way of thinking, just like the religion. Though I&#39;m sure you&#39;d use the word &#39;enlighten&#39; wouldn&#39;t you BD?

Personally, I don&#39;t care which religious &#39;persuasion&#39; you hail from. The fact that you attack mine is enough for you to have earned my disrespect. In case you hadn&#39;t noticed, such freedoms are freedom of religion are built into the constitution of most decent countries.

I was reading from the Israel vs Palestine forum earlier, and the infinity of human stupidity never ceases to amaze me. I shudder to think that the fools that I&#39;m witnessing now may one day run the country I live in. How can you all &#39;wiping out all religion&#39; or (in the case of one twit on the other forum) &#39;nuking everyon&#39; solutions?

THANK YOU for revealing what a twisted intolerant individual you are.

P.S. I&#39;m sorry you found those websites to be hateful. The truth hurts, doesn&#39;t it? But don&#39;t worry, you can always retreat into ignorance when the big bad world gets too much for you, mate.

[human_pet]

Originally posted by Calvarian2003@2 October 2003 - 07:56
Billy Dean. I only started looking at this board today and already you&#39;ve proven without a doubt how accurate your &#39;ranking&#39; is. Don&#39;t you have anything better to do than antagonise the beliefs of good people?

And I take offense to your reference to the &#39;judeo-christian-islamic&#39; faith. Islam is nothing like Judaism or Christianity, and here&#39;s why:

http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christia...d_the_koran.htm (http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christian/_articles/islam_and_the_koran.htm)

and,

http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christia...%26mohammed.htm (http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christian/_articles/islam%26mohammed.htm)

and finally,

http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christia...am_peaceful.htm (http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christian/_articles/islam_peaceful.htm)

Be sure to ask if you need more proof, as I would be happy to oblige. There is no shortage of the facts relating to Islam being the most militant, VIOLENT religion in the history of mankind.

I am in awe of the ignorance perpetuated on this forum. And your quiz, whilst interesting, means little since many of the quotes are taken out of context or with no knowledge of their greater meaning.

I thorougly recommend you visit this website and get your facts straight:

www.ucg.org

And as for all the other naysayers, agnostics, atheists and the rest on this forum, it will do all of you good to know that 5/6 of the world population are religious. Given, most of those people believe in fictitious gods, but the point remains that atheists are in the vast MINORITY.

It never ceases to amaze me how atheists immediately lay claim to a sense of superiority over me upon learning of my religious beliefs, even though a great number of them are so poorly informed on the subject or can&#39;t even pass a high school chemistry class. Pathetic.

Here is a fantastic quote which every atheist should take heed of:

"In order to make a statement such as &#39;there is no gold in China&#39;, one must know EVERYTHING there is to know about China and its culture, landscape, and people: whether there is gold in any single river, whether any of the millions of people there own one speck of gold jewellery, etc. It is quite nearly impossible to know all these facts; so one cannot reasonably make the assumption that there is no gold in China. However, one can easily make the claim that there IS gold in China. The same thing goes with the existence of God. One must know everything about the universe and it&#39;s creation - and believe me, that&#39;s a lot of knowledge you must have&#33; To deny the existence of God is to claim, essentially, that YOU are God, and know every single detail of the universe in order to claim that nowhere in the entire universe does God exist."

And considering that most of the atheists I talk to haven&#39;t even reached their twenties, just illustrates the disgusting pride and arrogance of such people. In short, &#39;Billy Dean&#39; if you can&#39;t say anything nice, keep your mouth shut. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and your antagonistic bullying is childish to the extreme.
Can you like give me any evidence that Islam is a violent religion?and yes Islam do have some common grounds betwwen judaism and christinity but it is does not support the idea that God can lose to a mere man nor can he lose to anything for that matter nor does islam support the idea of 3 in one or one and one and one equals 1 nor does islam support the idea of jesus as a son of God,but Islam DOES support the idea that God is One (as like Judaism) and that moses and Jesus are God&#39;s beloved prophets(judaism and christianity,and it teaches mankind that Islam is the last religion to be sent down by God and that the books of christians and jews have been corrupted,therefore we all worship the same God only some of us has different view about God and His prophets,Islam does not support begetting violence nor does it support any kind of terrorism either to humans or to animals,now please give me any evidence tha Islam(not some of it&#39;s followers ) supports violence...

[Calvarian2003]

Originally posted by human_pet@2 October 2003 - 09:19
Can you like give me any evidence that Islam is a violent religion?and yes Islam do have some common grounds betwwen judaism and christinity but it is does not support the idea that God can lose to a mere man nor can he lose to anything for that matter nor does islam support the idea of 3 in one or one and one and one equals 1 nor does islam support the idea of jesus as a son of God,but Islam DOES support the idea that God is One (as like Judaism) and that moses and Jesus are God&#39;s beloved prophets(judaism and christianity,and it teaches mankind that Islam is the last religion to be sent down by God and that the books of christians and jews have been corrupted,therefore we all worship the same God only some of us has different view about God and His prophets,Islam does not support begetting violence nor does it support any kind of terrorism either to humans or to animals,now please give me any evidence tha Islam(not some of it&#39;s followers ) supports violence...
HAHAHAHA&#33; Hang on, let me write a book now. Seriously, I would. If only it weren&#39;t for the fact that it&#39;s storming now and I don&#39;t want my computer to be fried. I read a very good quote recently which sums up my earlier assertions:

There are 3 times as many conflicts occurring in the world today that involve Islam than ALL the other religions of the world COMBINED. Unfortunately, I can&#39;t remember at this instant where I read that. Though I&#39;ll do my best to find it for you BD.

As for proof, let&#39;s look at a few places around the world. The West Bank and Gaza. Kashmir. Chechnya. Nigeria. Somalia... Shall I continue? Everywhere that has a significant Islamic presence is overwhelmed with religious violence. Is it just a coincidence? Hell no&#33;

Not to mention that religious bigotry and persecution suffered in Muslim-majority nations. There are thousands of Christians and others wrongfully imprisoned, tortured, maimed and killed in Islamic countries every year; where&#39;s your bleeding heart for them?

Funny that Muslims should enjoy every human right in democratic Western countries; while their dictatorships can&#39;t even afford the most basic religious and human rights to others. There are hundreds of mosques across America, but not a single church in Iran. Is that fair? Are you delusional? This is hatred, bigotry&#33;

Woah.... that storm is really getting bad. Tell you what; here&#39;s some proof for you:

http://www.persecution.com/

Be sure to have a look at that prisoner list, won&#39;t you?

Not to mention all the violent quotes in the Koran about &#39;jihad&#39; and killing Jews. Not to mention the fact that Islam&#39;s prophet had sex with a 9 year old girl. Not to mention that Mohammed&#39;s own home city of Mecca had him EXILED and didn&#39;t accept Islam at it&#39;s inception at all&#33; Not to mention that Islam was spread throughout the Middle East and into Europe by the SWORD. So much for peace & tolerance. And you can say about the Crusades, but that was the Catholic Church. They certainly do not represent all Christians.

Let&#39;s get fair. It&#39;s time to demolish all mosques, and tell all Muslims to convert, leave, or pay a religious tax for being Muslim. What, undemocratic? Hateful? True, but FAIR&#33;

And I&#39;ll catch you next time ~

[human_pet]

Originally posted by Calvarian2003+2 October 2003 - 09:41--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Calvarian2003 &#064; 2 October 2003 - 09:41)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-human_pet@2 October 2003 - 09:19
Can you like give me any evidence that Islam is a violent religion?and yes Islam do have some common grounds betwwen judaism and christinity but it is does not support the idea that God can lose to a mere man nor can he lose to anything for that matter nor does islam support the idea of 3 in one or one and one and one equals 1 nor does islam support the idea of jesus as a son of God,but Islam DOES support the idea that God is One (as like Judaism) and that moses and Jesus are God&#39;s beloved prophets(judaism and christianity,and it teaches mankind that Islam is the last religion to be sent down by God and that the books of christians and jews have been corrupted,therefore we all worship the same God only some of us has different view about God and His prophets,Islam does not support begetting violence nor does it support any kind of terrorism either to humans or to animals,now please give me any evidence tha Islam(not some of it&#39;s followers ) supports violence...
HAHAHAHA&#33; Hang on, let me write a book now. Seriously, I would. If only it weren&#39;t for the fact that it&#39;s storming now and I don&#39;t want my computer to be fried. I read a very good quote recently which sums up my earlier assertions:

There are 3 times as many conflicts occurring in the world today that involve Islam than ALL the other religions of the world COMBINED. Unfortunately, I can&#39;t remember at this instant where I read that. Though I&#39;ll do my best to find it for you BD.

As for proof, let&#39;s look at a few places around the world. The West Bank and Gaza. Kashmir. Chechnya. Nigeria. Somalia... Shall I continue? Everywhere that has a significant Islamic presence is overwhelmed with religious violence. Is it just a coincidence? Hell no&#33;

Not to mention that religious bigotry and persecution suffered in Muslim-majority nations. There are thousands of Christians and others wrongfully imprisoned, tortured, maimed and killed in Islamic countries every year; where&#39;s your bleeding heart for them?

Funny that Muslims should enjoy every human right in democratic Western countries; while their dictatorships can&#39;t even afford the most basic religious and human rights to others. There are hundreds of mosques across America, but not a single church in Iran. Is that fair? Are you delusional? This is hatred, bigotry&#33;

Woah.... that storm is really getting bad. Tell you what; here&#39;s some proof for you:

http://www.persecution.com/

Be sure to have a look at that prisoner list, won&#39;t you?

Not to mention all the violent quotes in the Koran about &#39;jihad&#39; and killing Jews. Not to mention the fact that Islam&#39;s prophet had sex with a 9 year old girl. Not to mention that Mohammed&#39;s own home city of Mecca had him EXILED and didn&#39;t accept Islam at it&#39;s inception at all&#33; Not to mention that Islam was spread throughout the Middle East and into Europe by the SWORD. So much for peace & tolerance. And you can say about the Crusades, but that was the Catholic Church. They certainly do not represent all Christians.

Let&#39;s get fair. It&#39;s time to demolish all mosques, and tell all Muslims to convert, leave, or pay a religious tax for being Muslim. What, undemocratic? Hateful? True, but FAIR&#33;

And I&#39;ll catch you next time ~ [/b][/quote]
But what did Islam Do?Most of your claims are that of which a Msulim did ,Islam did&#39;nt tell him/her to do it you know,and about the verse...,those were a time of war and those were when Jews were fighting muslims,but the verses cannot support the killing of innocent jews or any human,jihad,Allah calls for Jihad because at that time muslims were suffering,Jihad is a call for defending rights,but Jihad HAS to be a last resort one must try EVERY peaceful resolution first to try and stop them,If other means fails then it is ok for a jihad but it must be followed under certain rulz and that is: one should not kill the villagers/citizens,the one who is in a place of worship or a sanctuary(of course,they must not attack us),the weak,the old the wounded ,the women and man who are unarmed and one must not destroy any plants,animals and land if one can help it.that is True Islam for you..Oh yes Islam was spread by the Sword,it is Sharp Sword of Truth,Justice and happiness ;)

[Billy_Dean]

If you intend to discuss topics in this forum Calvarian, you should first check your facts, stupid mistakes like this ...

There are hundreds of mosques across America, but not a single church in Iran.
... could easily have been avoided with a simple Google, as in ...
The Catholic Church in Iran (http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/ir.html)

As I said before, your hatred does not make good debating.



:)

[Rat Faced]

Given, most of those people believe in fictitious gods, but the point remains that atheists are in the vast MINORITY.


How arrogant.

PROOVE that they believe in a fictitious god, and that you do not.

Its the attitude of people like you that CAUSE religious wars.


As to your pointing at all the trouble spots of the world eg Gaza, West Bank.....why dont you point out where the Islamic people are the AGGRESSORS in these areas?


By the way....

Which religion does the ONLY country in the world to make a habit of using NBC weapons believe in?


And as for the rediculous statement that "There are no churches in Iran..."

Well here are the address&#39; and phone numbers of a couple of those non-existant places...

St. George&#39;s Cathedral
Reverend Father Yousef Rashidi
Reverend Father Ashur Tamraz
No. 65 Sa&#39;ed Agha Balazadeh St.
South Karagar Avenue
Tehran 13337 IRAN
Phone: + (98-21) 542-406
Fax: + (98-21) 545-171

St. Mary&#39;s Cathedral
V. Rev. Cor-bishop Domara Benjamin
No. 121 Babakhanloo Brothers Avenue
Sepah Square - Tehran
IRAN
Office: + (98-21) 768-080
Fax: + (98-21) 545-171



St. Mary&#39;s Church
Very Rev. Archdeacon Aprim Mar Younan
Reverend Father Daryavosh Azizian
No. 37 South Qodus Avenue
Urmia - W. Azarbaijan
IRAN
Phone: + (98-441) 222-259
Fax: + (98-21) 545-171

[loz]

Originally posted by Calvarian2003@2 October 2003 - 07:56
It never ceases to amaze me how atheists immediately lay claim to a sense of superiority over me upon learning of my religious beliefs, even though a great number of them are so poorly informed on the subject or can&#39;t even pass a high school chemistry class. Pathetic.
Atheists.... superiority, it has been in my experience that a great number of religious people do think they are suprior, more so than athiests.
Yes some will be poorly informed as are a lot of religious people, is the proportion of athiests that are uninformed greater than the proportion of religious people that are uninformed I think not. Chemistry now what that has to do with spiritual knowledge I have no idea, but again yes some will have failed chemisty as will some who are religious, your points here are PATHETIC&#33;



Here is a fantastic quote which every atheist should take heed of:

"In order to make a statement such as &#39;there is no gold in China&#39;, one must know EVERYTHING there is to know about China and its culture, landscape, and people: whether there is gold in any single river, whether any of the millions of people there own one speck of gold jewellery, etc. It is quite nearly impossible to know all these facts; so one cannot reasonably make the assumption that there is no gold in China. However, one can easily make the claim that there IS gold in China. The same thing goes with the existence of God. One must know everything about the universe and it&#39;s creation - and believe me, that&#39;s a lot of knowledge you must have&#33; To deny the existence of God is to claim, essentially, that YOU are God, and know every single detail of the universe in order to claim that nowhere in the entire universe does God exist."


I have never heard any sane person atheist or otherwise say that they ARE God, & if you are to day that it is an absolout that God exists then doesn&#39;t that mean that YOU must be God?



And considering that most of the atheists I talk to haven&#39;t even reached their twenties, just illustrates the disgusting pride and arrogance of such people. In short, &#39;Billy Dean&#39; if you can&#39;t say anything nice, keep your mouth shut. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and your antagonistic bullying is childish to the extreme.

Your religious teachings are seemed as bullying to some, being bullied into having to follow a religion, now I may think you are arrogant because you think you know more than me, when of course that is untrue.

If you&#39;ve never heard or spoken to an athiest that hasn&#39;t reached their twenties then I suggest you go out into the big wide world & meet more people you WILL find that people who are atheist & are intellectual exist.

PLUR

[J'Pol]

It is best to avoid generalisations if at all possible. All atheists are this .... all Christians are that .... all Muslims are the other ....

I think it is highly unlikely that these things are ever true. At most they are based on the limited number of people of said description that the poster has met. More likely they are based on their own prejudice.

All generalists are wrong all of the time.

[Billy_Dean]

gen·er·al·ist

One who has broad general knowledge and skills in several areas.

JPaul

All generalists are wrong all of the time.

Are you sure??


:)

[J'Pol]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now I just know that everyone, including you, knew I was just making a very bad joke at my own expense.

[thewizeard]

Here is a fantastic quote which every atheist should take heed of:

"In order to make a statement such as &#39;there is no gold in China&#39;, one must know EVERYTHING there is to know about China and its culture, landscape, and people: whether there is gold in any single river, whether any of the millions of people there own one speck of gold jewellery, etc. It is quite nearly impossible to know all these facts; so one cannot reasonably make the assumption that there is no gold in China. However, one can easily make the claim that there IS gold in China. The same thing goes with the existence of God. One must know everything about the universe and it&#39;s creation - and believe me, that&#39;s a lot of knowledge you must have&#33;
To deny the existence of God is to claim, essentially, that YOU are God,and know every single detail of the universe in order to claim that nowhere in the entire universe does God exist."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is an interesting statement, ultimately it could be true&#33;

[lynx]

Originally posted by nigel123@3 October 2003 - 07:01
Here is a fantastic quote which every atheist should take heed of:

"In order to make a statement such as &#39;there is no gold in China&#39;, one must know EVERYTHING there is to know about China and its culture, landscape, and people: whether there is gold in any single river, whether any of the millions of people there own one speck of gold jewellery, etc. It is quite nearly impossible to know all these facts; so one cannot reasonably make the assumption that there is no gold in China. However, one can easily make the claim that there IS gold in China. The same thing goes with the existence of God. One must know everything about the universe and it&#39;s creation - and believe me, that&#39;s a lot of knowledge you must have&#33;
To deny the existence of God is to claim, essentially, that YOU are God,and know every single detail of the universe in order to claim that nowhere in the entire universe does God exist."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is an interesting statement, ultimately it could be true&#33;
That logic is flawed.

Since we know that gold exists, the statements about gold being found/not found in China are true. But if someone declares that he believes there is a new element (lets call it blobbium) without any proof, and another person states that there is no blobbium in China, it is not reasonable to state that you need to know everything about China in order to make that statement, since there has been no proof that blobbium anywhere. If blobbium does not exist, the statement &#39;there is no blobbium in China&#39; is merely a null statement. However, showing that there is blobbium in China also proves that blobbium exists.

Non-reversible logic is often used to &#39;prove&#39; the existence of God, but when examined properly we always find that without other proof these are null statements, and of course no other proof is forthcoming.

Edit: typo

[Strutzy3]

That logic is flawed.

Since we know that gold exists, the statements about gold being found/not found in China are true. But if someone declares that he believes there is a new element (lets call it blobbium) without any proof, and another person states that there is no blobbium in China, it is not reasonable to state that you need to know everything about China in order to make that statement, since there has been no proof that blobbium anywhere. If blobbium does not exist, the statement &#39;there is no blobbium in China&#39; is merely a null statement. However, showing that there is blobbium in China also proves that blobbium exists.


Simply you are saying that one that says that there is &#39;blobbium&#39; exists must have the possibly harder challenge of first giving some proof that there is a such thing as &#39;blobbium&#39;. This point being related to the idea of God can be applied because of everything around you - the trees, the bird that lands in that tree, and the solar system that contains the tree&#39;s planet - those that believe that God exist also believe that God made everything. You are debating from your perspective which is not how debates are won - i&#39;m not dissing you er anything because i&#39;m sure i&#39;ve done that a lot too - we need to find a two point perspective where you who doesn&#39;t believe in God and I who believe in God can come together and debate about.

So let&#39;s start here:
How do you think the world came to be? A big bang- i&#39;ll play along - where did the original cluster of atoms come from?
Gases came together forming the world and all living things evolved from a few cells over a super long time - my question can still remain the same- where did the gases come from - or where did those cells come from and was it just coincidence that the enviornment was at the right effects for replication / mutation to occur? Even a theory such as aliens created us and farm us every million years still presents the question of where did the aliens and all this.... stuff come from? I don&#39;t expect you to know exactly how the coming of everything happened - i don&#39;t either, but when i wonder where everything came from initially i think of God. The only answer i can come up with is God - a being that has always been - if he hadn&#39;t always been i would ask myself where did he come from. That issue of God being / not being constrained by time is another issue i can talk about later. But just ask yourself where you think everything came from? Let me know if that questions isn&#39;t equal from your perspective. I don&#39;t think i slipped any improper questions.

And for the name calling that&#39;s going on in this forum - there&#39;s no need you&#39;re not going to get anywhere by denouncing who you think of as your &#39;opposition&#39; (what other word could i have used there?) - just settle down - when someone posts something that upsets you - first of all don&#39;t freak out and decare it an outrage that you be insulted. You don&#39;t know them - it should have no effect on you what they think about you. You can respond to that person and simply let them know to tone it down a bit if they insulted you, telling them why, and how it was not needed. I&#39;m just tired of looking at this forum that should be filled with intelligent convos about religion, God or no God, etc and instead it&#39;s been filled with mud slinging - We&#39;re all people that can carry on pleasant conversations - why practice it? There&#39;s no reason.

Your friend,
Strutzy3

[hobbes]

Strutzy3,

Your approach is quite refreshing. We are not here to win debate points, we are here to understand how we came to be.

I think every agnostic would love for God to exist, we just feel that religions are a product of man.

The ultimate sticking point is this: In creating God we must create something that is more complex than the universe we find ourselves in. So how is it useful to create something more complex to explain how we have come to be?

In addition, why should the nanosecond we spend on Earth, in relation to eternity, determine forever our fates? We are not all born to loving parents and good role models. What happens to those who die before they gain a perspective.

I spent 5, 6 week summer terms with fundamental Christians. I learned from them the concept of "I&#39;m third". God is first, others are second and what I want third.

As a philosphy I embraced it, but as for Christianity, I never believed, even as a child.

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by Strutzy3@4 October 2003 - 07:09


And for the name calling that&#39;s going on in this forum - there&#39;s no need you&#39;re not going to get anywhere by denouncing who you think of as your &#39;opposition&#39; (what other word could i have used there?) - just settle down - when someone posts something that upsets you - first of all don&#39;t freak out and decare it an outrage that you be insulted.&nbsp; You don&#39;t know them - it should have no effect on you what they think about you.&nbsp; You can respond to that person and simply let them know to tone it down a bit if they insulted you, telling them why, and how it was not needed.&nbsp; I&#39;m just tired of looking at this forum that should be filled with intelligent convos about religion, God or no God, etc and instead it&#39;s been filled with mud slinging - We&#39;re all people that can carry on pleasant conversations - why practice it?&nbsp; There&#39;s no reason.&nbsp;

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Your friend,
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Strutzy3

:o Don&#39;t be so patronizing Strutzy3 &#33;&#33;&#33;

My theory:

Everything has always been here, there has never been a beginning and there will never be an end. It has the quality of &#39;asitisness&#39;

Whatever the truth is we will never know. All theories will always remain just that, theories, with no absolute proof&#33; That will remain so untill one can see through the veil of duality. ie. good/bad, right/wrong, truth/lie, God/Satan, etc.

One will also have to try and stop thinking in linear terms if one wants to gain real understanding of this universe.

[Billy_Dean]

So let&#39;s start here:
How do you think the world came to be? A big bang- i&#39;ll play along - where did the original cluster of atoms come from? ...&nbsp;
Where did god come from?

Time, as we know it is linear, it does not go round in circles, everything has a beginning and an end. Where did your god come from?

You have no answer to this, no-one has. The usual tactic is to turn to science, and start quoting obscure theories about space-time that even the broad scientific community don&#39;t support.

Even the Pope has aknowledged the probable truth of the big bang theory, although with a rider that "god" set it off.


:)

[Calvarian2003]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@4 October 2003 - 09:21

So let&#39;s start here:
How do you think the world came to be? A big bang- i&#39;ll play along - where did the original cluster of atoms come from? ...
Where did god come from?

Time, as we know it is linear, it does not go round in circles, everything has a beginning and an end. Where did your god come from?

You have no answer to this, no-one has. The usual tactic is to turn to science, and start quoting obscure theories about space-time that even the broad scientific community don&#39;t support.

Even the Pope has aknowledged the probable truth of the big bang theory, although with a rider that "god" set it off.


:)
Correct, religious people cannot PROVE that the universe was created as put forth in Genesis or how God was created. Generally, the it is prophecy and archaeological findings lend credibility to the Bible, and therefore Christians assume this statement also to be true.

Funny that you should deride relgion&#39;s ability to prove that God is true, because science cannot prove that God DOESN&#39;T exist. Science cannot prove how the universe was formed. Science is limited in it&#39;s scope to be able to prove anything which occurred so long before our own civilisation and time.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@4 October 2003 - 10:21


Time, as we know it is linear, it does not go round in circles, everything has a beginning and an end. Where did your god come from?


Who are the we you are describing. How do you know it does not go round in circles. Given that it has now been established that cause does not always come before effect, I am surprised you are so confident in your understanding of the mechanics of time.

I don&#39;t know either way, I remain undecided, so I suppose I am a time agnostic. I would be interested to hear your proof on the linear nature of time, other than anecdotal evidence. If you could post it in terms that I can understand, don&#39;t rely too much on my maths please, that would be great.

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by JPaul@4 October 2003 - 20:25

Who are the we you are describing. How do you know it does not go round in circles. Given that it has now been established that cause does not always come before effect, I am surprised you are so confident in your understanding of the mechanics of time.

I don&#39;t know either way, I remain undecided, so I suppose I am a time agnostic. I would be interested to hear your proof on the linear nature of time, other than anecdotal evidence. If you could post it in terms that I can understand, don&#39;t rely too much on my maths please, that would be great.
Given that it has now been established that cause does not always come before effect,..

Where has that been "established"?

:)

Calvarian
Generally, the it is prophecy and archaeological findings lend credibility to the Bible, ..

Utter rubbish&#33;&#33;



:)

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@4 October 2003 - 13:14

Given that it has now been established that cause does not always come before effect,..

Where has that been "established"?

:)

At the quantum level.

[Billy_Dean]

Not according to my sources JP.

Look here ..
Scientific Proof That God Exists. (http://www.apologeticspress.org/bibbul/2002/bb-02-23.htm)

Especially the part ..

... Let’s look at the law of cause and effect. As far as science knows, natural laws have no exceptions. This is definitely true of the law of cause and effect, which is the most universal and most certain of all laws. Simply put, the law of cause and effect states that every material effect must have an adequate cause that existed before the effect.

Material effects without adequate causes do not exist. Also, causes never occur after the effect. In addition, the effect never is greater than the cause. ....



:)

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@4 October 2003 - 10:21

So let&#39;s start here:
How do you think the world came to be? A big bang- i&#39;ll play along - where did the original cluster of atoms come from? ...
Where did god come from?

Time, as we know it is linear, it does not go round in circles, everything has a beginning and an end. Where did your god come from?

You have no answer to this, no-one has. The usual tactic is to turn to science, and start quoting obscure theories about space-time that even the broad scientific community don&#39;t support.

Even the Pope has aknowledged the probable truth of the big bang theory, although with a rider that "god" set it off.


:)
Many scientists are turning away again from the big bang theory and are looking toward the "plasma theory" for a solution to many of the anomalies.. so we will still need a lot of patience&#33;

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by nigel123@4 October 2003 - 23:17
Many scientists are turning away again from the big bang theory and are looking toward the "plasma theory" for a solution to many of the anomalies.. so we will still need a lot of patience&#33;
I remember someone talking about "superstring theory", he said only about three people in the world understood it, and that it was postulated 100 years too soon.


:)

[Billy_Dean]

An interesting point about superstrings is their theoretical size.
If you expanded an atom to the size of our solar system, a superstring would be the size of an atom.


:huh:

[J'Pol]

I&#39;m glad that you agree that every effect must have a cause and that the cause comes before the effect. It is helpfull to take that position before you read this article. I am also glad that you are working with scientific arguements here, again your understanding will help you follow this.



If God created the universe, then who created God?

A number of sceptics ask this question. But God by definition is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question ‘Who created God?’ is illogical, just like ‘To whom is the bachelor married?’

Everything which has a beginning has a cause.1
The universe has a beginning.
Therefore the universe has a cause.

It’s important to stress the words in bold type. The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning, as will be shown below. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. So time itself would have begun along with matter and space. Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time — God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’ (Is. 57:15). Therefore He doesn’t have a cause.

In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. This can be shown from the Laws of Thermodynamics, the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences.

1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.
2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.
If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable energy — the ‘heat death’ of the universe. For example, all radioactive atoms would have decayed, every part of the universe would be the same temperature, and no further work would be possible. So the obvious corollary is that the universe began a finite time ago with a lot of usable energy, and is now running down.

Now, what if the questioner accepts that the universe had a beginning, but not that it needs a cause? But it is self-evident that things that begin have a cause — no-one really denies it in his heart. All science and history would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. So would all law enforcement, if the police didn’t think they needed to find a cause for a stabbed body or a burgled house. Also, the universe cannot be self-caused — nothing can create itself, because that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is a logical absurdity.

IN SUMMARY
The universe (including time itself) can be shown to have had a beginning.

It is unreasonable to believe something could begin to exist without a cause.

The universe therefore requires a cause, just as Genesis 1:1 and Romans 1:20 teach.

God, as creator of time, is outside of time. Since therefore He has no beginning in time, He has always existed, so doesn’t need a cause.

OBJECTIONS
There are only two ways to refute an argument:

Show that it is logically invalid

Show that at least one of the premises is false.

a) Is the argument valid?
A valid argument is one where it is impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. Note that validity does not depend on the truth of the premises, but on the form of the argument. The argument in this paper is valid; it is of the same form as: All whales have backbones; Moby Dick is a whale; therefore Moby Dick has a backbone. So the only hope for the sceptic is to dispute one or both of the premises.

B) Are the premises true?
1) Does the universe have a beginning?
Oscillating universe ideas were popularized by atheists like the late Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov solely to avoid the notion of a beginning, with its implications of a Creator. But as shown above, the Laws of Thermodynamics undercut that argument. Even an oscillating universe cannot overcome those laws. Each one of the hypothetical cycles would exhaust more and more usable energy. This means every cycle would be larger and longer than the previous one, so looking back in time there would be smaller and smaller cycles. So the multicycle model could have an infinite future, but can only have a finite past.2

Also, there are many lines of evidence showing that there is far too little mass for gravity to stop expansion and allow cycling in the first place, i.e., the universe is ‘open’. According to the best estimates (even granting old-earth assumptions), the universe still has only about half the mass needed for re-contraction. This includes the combined total of both luminous matter and non-luminous matter (found in galactic halos), as well as any possible contribution of neutrinos to total mass.3 Some recent evidence for an ‘open’ universe comes from the number of light-bending ‘gravitational lenses’ in the sky.4 Also, analysis of Type Ia supernovae shows that the universe’s expansion rate is not slowing enough for a closed universe.5,6 It seems like there is only 40-80% of the required matter to cause a ‘big crunch’. Incidentally, this low mass is also a major problem for the currently fashionable ‘inflationary’ version of the ‘big bang’ theory, as this predicts a mass density just on the threshold of collapse — a ‘flat’ universe.

Finally, no known mechanism would allow a bounce back after a hypothetical ‘big crunch’.7 As the late Professor Beatrice Tinsley of Yale explained, even though the mathematics says that the universe oscillates, ‘There is no known physical mechanism to reverse a catastrophic big crunch.’ Off the paper and into the real world of physics, those models start from the Big Bang, expand, collapse, and that’s the end.8

2) Denial of cause and effect
Some physicists assert that quantum mechanics violates this cause/effect principle and can produce something from nothing. For instance, Paul Davies writes:

… spacetime could appear out of nothingness as a result of a quantum transition. … Particles can appear out of nowhere without specific causation … Yet the world of quantum mechanics routinely produces something out of nothing.9

But this is a gross misapplication of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics never produces something out of nothing. Davies himself admitted on the previous page that his scenario ‘should not be taken too seriously.’

Theories that the universe is a quantum fluctuation must presuppose that there was something to fluctuate — their ‘quantum vacuum’ is a lot of matter-antimatter potential — not ‘nothing’. Also, I have plenty of theoretical and practical experience at quantum mechanics (QM) from my doctoral thesis work. For example, Raman spectroscopy is a QM phenomenon, but from the wavenumber and intensity of the spectral bands, we can work out the masses of the atoms and force constants of the bonds causing the bands. To help the atheist position that the universe came into existence without a cause, one would need to find Raman bands appearing without being caused by transitions in vibrational quantum states, or alpha particles appearing without pre-existing nuclei, etc. If QM was as acausal as some people think, then we should not assume that these phenomena have a cause. Then I may as well burn my Ph.D. thesis, and all the spectroscopy journals should quit, as should any nuclear physics research.

Also, if there is no cause, there is no explanation why this particular universe appeared at a particular time, nor why it was a universe and not, say, a banana or cat which appeared. This universe can&#39;t have any properties to explain its preferential coming into existence, because it wouldn&#39;t have any properties until it actually came into existence.

Is creation by God rational?
A last desperate tactic by sceptics to avoid a theistic conclusion is to assert that creation in time is incoherent. Davies correctly points out that since time itself began with the beginning of the universe, it is meaningless to talk about what happened ‘before’ the universe began. But he claims that causes must precede their effects. So if nothing happened ‘before’ the universe began, then (according to Davies) it is meaningless to discuss the cause of the universe’s beginning.

But the philosopher (and New Testament scholar) William Lane Craig, in a useful critique of Davies,10 pointed out that Davies is deficient in philosophical knowledge. Philosophers have long discussed the notion of simultaneous causation. Immanuel Kant (1724–1804) gave the example of a weight resting on a cushion simultaneously causing a depression in it. Craig says: The first moment of time is the moment of God&#39;s creative act and of creation&#39;s simultaneous coming to be.

Some skeptics claim that all this analysis is tentative, because that is the nature of science. So this can’t be used to prove creation by God. Of course, sceptics can&#39;t have it both ways: saying that the Bible is wrong because science has proved it so, but if science appears consistent with the Bible, then well, science is tentative anyway.

FURTHER READING
More information can be found in the following works. Unfortunately they are too friendly towards the unscriptural ‘big bang’ theory with its billions of years of death, suffering and disease before Adam’s sin. But the above arguments are perfectly consistent with a recent creation in six consecutive normal days, as taught by Scripture.

Craig, W.L., 1984. Apologetics: An Introduction,Chicago: Moody.

Craig, W.L. online article The Existence of God and the Beginning of the Universe.

Geisler, N.L, 1976. Christian Apologetics (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker).

REFERENCES
Actually, the word ‘cause’ has several different meanings in philosophy. But in this article, I am referring to the efficient cause, the chief agent causing something to be made. Return to text

Novikov, I.D. and Zel’dovich, Ya. B., 1973. Physical Processes Near Cosmological Singularities. Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics 11:401–2. Return to text

Schramm, D.N. and Steigman, G., 1981. Relic Neutrinos and the Density of the Universe. Astrophysical Journal 243:1–7. Return to text

Watson, A., 1997. Clusters point to Never Ending Universe. Science 278(5342):1402. Return to text

Perlmutter, S. et al., 1998. Discovery of a supernova explosion at half the age of the universe. Nature 391(6662):51. Perspective by Branch, D. Destiny and destiny. Same issue, pp. 23–24. Return to text

Glanz, J. New light on the fate of the universe. Science 278(5339):799–800. Return to text

Guth, A.H. and Sher, M., 1983. The Impossibility of a Bouncing Universe. Nature 302:505–507. Return to text

Tinsley, B., 1975. From Big Bang to Eternity? Natural History Magazine. October, pp. 102-5. Cited in Craig, W.L., 1984. Apologetics: An Introduction ,Chicago: Moody, p. 61. Return to text

Davies, P., 1983. God and the New Physics, Simon & Schuster, p. 215. Return to text

Craig, W.L., 1986. God, Creation and Mr Davies. Brit. J. Phil. Sci. 37:163–175. Return to text

[Billy_Dean]

But the above arguments are perfectly consistent with a recent creation in six consecutive normal days, as taught by Scripture.
So this is what you believe?


:)

[hobbes]

JPaul,

You lost me with "By definition,God is the uncreated creator " Who creates these arbitrary definitions? I say that God is, by definition, an entity created by man to give meaning and order to life.

I&#39;ve seen this trick before, removing God from the universe, then stating that he is outside of spacetime.

Never understood it, seems like academic hocus pocus to me. I think it warps the concept of time.

The real point is how does something of infinite wisdom come to exist spontaneously? He didn&#39;t, he has always been. Stating that he is outside of spacetime is nothing but an ole by the matador. The word "faith" in a scientific guise.

But most agnostics have reached this point on their own. We don&#39;t find either have the intelligence to understand or the faith to accept this "outside of spact-time" concept.

But even if I spot you this, how do we then go about selecting the right religion? Which version of what God wants is true? To be continued.....

[J'Pol]

Billy

I merely referred you to this because, once again I thought you may be interested. If you&#39;re really not interested in seeing another view of things, different from your own that&#39;s cool.

Perhaps others will find it interesting and a different perspective on things.

[J'Pol]

Hobbes

I just found the article interesting and thought that other might, it&#39;s not a problem if you didn&#39;t.

Re the religion thing. Surely that is a wee bit academic at this point. The agnostic would require proof of God, before he or she then went into the detail of which religion they thought best.

[hobbes]

Continued,

(initially,there is no paper on the island, you are illiterate)


Let me place you as King on an isolated island, your mind has been erased of society, history, and religion. What rules do you make? Well look at children, little kids would literally kill each other over a piece of bread, not out of malice, but out of singularity of purpose. It is only when we get older that we understand our mortality and role in a society.

I would aver that this intuitive sense of "right and wrong" is nothing more than an adaption of animal behavior based on the knowledge of our own mortality and physical needs. We say it is wrong to lie, because we don&#39;t want to be lied too. It is wrong to steal because we do not wish to be the victim. In short, we create rules for a society which attempt to create stability and order by agreeing to resist our primitive urges.

Then little Billy asks, "How did we all come to be?"

You explain that the implications of the Big Bang lead you to believe that their is a creator outside of space-time who has placed you there.

"Duh", says Billy, "but how does he want us to live, what are his rules? Is there life after death?"

Look around you JPaul, what on your island tells you about God. Is it in the rocks, the water, the sky. Do you tell them about Christ? No, you have never heard of him, your society would live and die without ever hearing his name. This is not right. God should be the same anywhere, and at all times. He should be the same thing to all people. Christians know that if you do not accept Christ you will go to hell. All of you are doomed&#33;

At any rate, this is the beginning of your own island religion. The putting together of heads to try and figure out what this is all about. You are blessed enough with knowledge so that you can skip the Pagan phase and can advance to the more abstract conceptualization of God. Overtime, a mythology develops, perhaps you contact the adjacent local islands, each with its own stories and their stories are blended with yours. Eventually, the origins of the tales are lost. You are left with an amalgam of tales that are twisted and amended over time until you have the means to staple them together and call them a Bible. Your religion is organized and ready to repress all non- believers.


My points:
1. Even given that God exists, his unique separtion from spacetime would make him unknowable.

2. Religions are created by man to define what this God is. They just make the stuff up.

3. To me, a true religion should reflect God. Since God is the same thing everywhere, at everytime, all people should see him the same way. So one unified religion to explain the same God should have arisen. In reality, 1000s of immisible religions have been created, indicating that they reflect more about the people who created them than about God.

4. You cannot know God, we must individually decide on a philosophy of life. When we die, can we be at peace with ourselves. Religion is just philosophy with a God thrown in. He only creates problems in my opinion.

5. JPaul, if you are a Catholic, I can accept that perhaps you find the philosophy of this religion to be something that you agree with, but to think that Catholicism defines what God is, this is where I would disagree.

[Billy_Dean]

JP, the article you posted starts with a major assumption, (totally untrue, in my (humble?) opinion). that "god" is timeless, had no beginning, and is the "..uncreated creator of the universe". I have no argument with the article, except that I think it&#39;s rubbish.

The reason I posted this ...So this is what you believe? ... was in response to this ... ..creation in six consecutive normal days.

I was merely asking you if you believed the universe was created in 6 working days.


:)

[J'Pol]

Hobbes

An excellent post, thanks for that I really enjoyed reading it.

If there were a sincere smiley I would place it here.

[J'Pol]

Billy

I hear what you say, however I disagree with it.

The article in it&#39;s simples form states that it can be shown that the universe we live in had a beginning and it will have an end. Further that time as we know it within the universe started at the creation of the universe.

As we have agreed, there can be no effect without a cause. Since the universe exists there must be a cause, but as time started with the universe, then the cause must be outwith time.

I believe that the cause was God, you do not, fair enough. What do you believe the cause was. I do not think that turtles all the way down would be a reasonable argument.

[clocker]

Very interesting all.
As I really can&#39;t adhere to either side I have so far just monitored from the sidelines. A couple of thoughts, however...

There seems to be trend for the non-believers to use science as the tool to dispute the existence of God.
For some reason, the believers seem willing to accept this as a basis of debate.

What happened to the "leap of faith"? The unquestioning acceptance of the belief in a God/Higher Power? Is this, in and of itself, not the final word in the discussion?

Hobbes, not to nit-pick or anything, but...

3. To me, a true religion should reflect God. Since God is the same thing everywhere, at everytime is, all people should see him the same way.
Can you even make this claim about yourself? Humans are multifaceted, we certainly do not show the same face to all people all the time so why would you expect a God to?

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by JPaul@5 October 2003 - 02:26
Billy

I hear what you say, however I disagree with it.

The article in it&#39;s simples form states that it can be shown that the universe we live in had a beginning and it will have an end. Further that time as we know it within the universe started at the creation of the universe.

As we have agreed, there can be no effect without a cause. Since the universe exists there must be a cause, but as time started with the universe, then the cause must be outwith time.

I believe that the cause was God, you do not, fair enough. What do you believe the cause was. I do not think that turtles all the way down would be a reasonable argument.
I think what you miss here is that "universal" time started at the beginning of the universe, not necessarily time itself.

[IF the universe had a beginning, the big bang would be the theory of choice for most scientists. However, as has been pointed out here by others, there are other, newer theories, superstrings being one of them, which would do away with the necessity for a "big bang".

You still haven&#39;t answered my previous question to you, so I&#39;ll ask again: Do you believe god created the universe in 6 days, or do you believe he started the big bang, and allowed the universe to evolve according to the laws of physics?

:)

[J'Pol]

Clocker,

In my opinion todays science goes towards proving that the Universe is unlikely to have self created. Given that it started at a point and will end at a point then there must be a "creator".

My belief is that it is God, others believe differently, I would be interested in their explanation. However the position that the universe just came into being with no external influence is untenable.

With regard to the faces of God, not only do we all show different face to each other. The same face is perceived by all of us differently. I see you as an erudite and eloquent person. However a truly intelligent and educated person may merely see you as a reasonable averagely bright chap.

The eye of the beholder is very important.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by clocker@4 October 2003 - 18:36
Very interesting all.
As I really can&#39;t adhere to either side I have so far just monitored from the sidelines. A couple of thoughts, however...

There seems to be trend for the non-believers to use science as the tool to dispute the existence of God.
For some reason, the believers seem willing to accept this as a basis of debate.

What happened to the "leap of faith"? The unquestioning acceptance of the belief in a God/Higher Power? Is this, in and of itself, not the final word in the discussion?

Hobbes, not to nit-pick or anything, but...

3. To me, a true religion should reflect God. Since God is the same thing everywhere, at everytime is, all people should see him the same way.
Can you even make this claim about yourself? Humans are multifaceted, we certainly do not show the same face to all people all the time so why would you expect a God to?
God is a perfect sphere, he looks the same from all angles. Gotcha&#33;

Seriously, we show different facets to different people as it reflects our motives. God should have no motives, he is pure.

At any rate, even if he has a dynamic, multifaceted personality, anyone who gets to know him well, will see these different traits. Each culture should have had an equal opportunity to do so.


In my view, science and God are mutually exclusive entities. Religions are only threatened by science if they hold literal interpretations about creation.

Science has no interest in dispproving God, that would suck, actually.

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by clocker@4 October 2003 - 18:36
...There seems to be trend for the non-believers to use science as the tool to dispute the existence of God...
I&#39;m keeping out of this one. But because I&#39;ve been awake for 35 hours straight, I&#39;m thinking in cliched phrases (nor can I remember the ASCII code for that "e").

Absense of proof does not equal proof of absense.

:ninja:

[clocker]

JPaul,
I shall use you as an example as you have been active in the Christianity threads and very forthcoming about your religious leanings/beliefs.

I am somewhat surprised that at some point you didn&#39;t just say " The scientific
/logical proofs for or against the existence of God are irrelevant. I believe, and that is, in and of itself, all the reason I need."
Essentially irrefutable, in my book.
Isn&#39;t that in fact, the basis of most religions? The willingness to accept without evidence, the suspension of logic and the embracing of the unknowable?
Isn&#39;t religion, at it&#39;s core, a matter of the heart, not the mind? If so, then quibbling about the (theoretical) beginnings of the Universe seems not only pointless, but actually sort of demeaning.
To me, it is reminiscent of trying to quantify "great art" ( pick your own example here)- you either love it or you don&#39;t, but trying to explain why you feel the way you do is hopeless...the vocabulary just doesn&#39;t exist to encompass the vagaries of the heart. Even sillier is to try and convert/dissuade another to your point of view. You can certainly expound on the aspects that you find attractive and even attempt to provide the context from which you view the piece ( or the religion), but in the end isn&#39;t "I believe" really the only, and final answer?

[hobbes]

JPaul,

This thread has taken the topic of creation and dissected out two distinct elements.

1.God
2.Religion


God would be defined as the creator of the universe who has always been.

Religions are man-made entities which hope to promote
1. A philosophy which allows people to live in harmony
2. A hope for salvation, eternal life, or something good

In our discussion today, it seems to me that you are in agreement that God is unknowable, if he exists he is outside of our space-time.

I have inferred that your acceptance of Catholicism is based on #1 above and you understand that it cannot be expected to be more correct than any other religion in knowing God.

To me, it would render any disagreement about his existence moot. You say there is a God because it makes more sense to you than no God. I see it the other way. Regardless, we both agree that we cannot truly know God and we must make a personal descision on what is the "right" way to live. You have aligned yourself with the Catholic church (#1 above).

But this seems to leave us at the same point when it comes to death and what awaits us. We both don&#39;t know. Am I wrong, do you accept #2, I am thinking, not based on what has been discussed today.

JPaul what do you think awaits us after physical death? (or anybody)

[ilw]

Billy your theory of pre-universe time is, i think a fairly unique one, perhaps you should write a paper on it. Personally i think the pre universe period is basically not within our ability to understand, it simply doesn&#39;t follow physics or maths, as JPaul pointed out there is no causality without time. I could believe that something or someone sparked off the creation of our universe, however, i find it hard to believe such a being knows/cares about our existence let alone intended it and as such i doubt that such an entity would want/believe in worship. Equally i could believe in a circular universe (in terms of time) where something in this universe in the future could cause the annihilation of this universe and cause this universe to again be created (ie a paradox loop where we have had this conversation an infinite number of times). However, I think its going to be a long long time before.
(sorry JPaul if this next bit sounds like i&#39;m attacking you in any way its not meant that way)
I dislike that some religions/religious people try and incorporate scientific facts that go against what their religion says into their beliefs, to me it seems like their slowly backing off what their religion is telling them as facts are proved to them. Instead of trying to start blank and generating theories, they&#39;re starting with something they know to be wrong and fiddling it together with reality.

[ilw]

About the life after death thing, my opinion on it can be summed up quite simply by pointing out that its an oxymoron.

[Rat Faced]

God would be defined as the creator of the universe who has always been.



Lets take this further.

All the wars on this tiny globe, over how to worship him/her/it........



If they created the universe, then what type of wars are we in for if there ever is a 1st contact.........its their universe as well.

If they dont look like us; then the "created in his image" will be a huge thing.....




Im so glad i dont have to think about this stuff and justify my beliefs to anyone accept me.

I cant think of 1 church that is still the same as when it was set up, and presumably the other religions are the same.

So IF, "God" told em how it should be set up.......they&#39;ve already moved away from the formula...

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@4 October 2003 - 20:08


Im so glad i dont have to think about this stuff and justify my beliefs to anyone accept me.


I wholeheartedly concur with the latter part of your sentiment, whilst chosing to take a different position with regard to the former.

[bigboab]

Originally posted by JPaul+4 October 2003 - 19:25--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 4 October 2003 - 19:25)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@4 October 2003 - 20:08


Im so glad i dont have to think about this stuff and justify my beliefs to anyone accept me.


I wholeheartedly concur with the latter part of your sentiment, whilst chosing to take a different position with regard to the former. [/b][/quote]
[QUOTE]

Me too.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@4 October 2003 - 20:08

God would be defined as the creator of the universe who has always been.






Im so glad i dont have to think about this stuff and justify my beliefs to anyone accept me.




I think the question of mortality is the ONLY important question one can ponder. There is a huge difference between believing in a purely physical world and a fixed mortality versus eternity in heavan.

I think about these things and discuss these things in hopes of gaining an insight which will allow me some peace. I currently have none.

The issue is not about what other people believe, but what you believe when you wake up at 5:00 am and your mind is in it&#39;s darkest hour. I envy those people who pop out of bed doing the "I&#39;m going to Heavan "dance. Just becasue I want to be like them, doesn&#39;t mean I can. My mind just doesn&#39;t seem to have the capacity for "faith".

[fallenknight308]

Originally posted by DrunkeNStylE@25 September 2003 - 04:35
:) i put my faith in god and no 1 else we all need somthing to belive in i belive in god not in christainity i think the bible has been currupted over the many years to scare people into being good but i do belive god created our soul i do belive he loves every1 and i do belive he forgives every1

Only God Can Judge Us
Yes, Yes. :o
But really, what is "God"?
A deity that we should "worship" and obey?
Should we abstain from "sin"?
The TRUE sin my friend, is the absence of Faith that there IS a creator of this planet and everything on it&#33;
Therefor we should understand the beauty of this:, THE GRAND CONSTRUCT :alien:

This world is engineered&#33; Think about it, we are just now unlocking the genetic building blocks of the biological entitys of this planet&#33;

Think: It is like a computer, the program has ran for thousands of years, and we now have the tech to UNLOCK it&#33;
We are so close to finding the "secret" of our existence, and it is staring us right in the face.


One time when I took "shrooms" (don&#39;t laugh) I was able to "access" another part of the program&#33; Try it, you will understand ;)
(Remember the matrix? ) http://www.totse.com/en/drugs/psychedelics/index.html
When we imbibe certain "natural" substances, we begin to understand the greater picture. We are just a microcosm in the grand scheme of things :beerchug:

I am not even a "Tree hugger"
I just know that this IS more than the big bang, and monkeys&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; :ph34r:

[fallenknight308]

Originally posted by hobbes+4 October 2003 - 12:20--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 4 October 2003 - 12:20)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@4 October 2003 - 20:08

God would be defined as the creator of the universe who has always been.






Im so glad i dont have to think about this stuff and justify my beliefs to anyone accept me.




I think the question of mortality is the ONLY important question one can ponder. There is a huge difference between believing in a purely physical world and a fixed mortality versus eternity in heavan.

I think about these things and discuss these things in hopes of gaining an insight which will allow me some peace. I currently have none.

The issue is not about what other people believe, but what you believe when you wake up at 5:00 am and your mind is in it&#39;s darkest hour. I envy those people who pop out of bed doing the "I&#39;m going to Heavan "dance. Just becasue I want to be like them, doesn&#39;t mean I can. My mind just doesn&#39;t seem to have the capacity for "faith". [/b][/quote]
I can see by your avatar, that you have seen "donnie darko"
Then you shall understand:

Everything happens for a reason&#33;

[J'Pol]

A "Think about it" and a "Think:"

Thanks for that, I wouldn&#39;t have thought about it unless you had told me to. In fact, having read your post I won&#39;t bother anyway. However if you feel that mind altering substances improve your clarity of thought then go for it.

[fallenknight308]

Originally posted by JPaul@5 October 2003 - 02:01
A "Think about it" and a "Think:"

Thanks for that, I wouldn&#39;t have thought about it unless you had told me to. In fact, having read your post I won&#39;t bother anyway. However if you feel that mind altering substances improve your clarity of thought then go for it.
Touché
My point (if I have one on this board at all)
Is this: "For too long have we put our faith in the unrighteous teachings of our forefathers, for it is now that we shed the cloak of decite and embrace the truth of reality"
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.............bitch
(Oh yes, yes, I know what your rebuttal will be: Yea, you must smoke off that pipe alot. You see I have every contingency in hand, you are just another bump in the road. And don&#39;t bother pointing out my poor spelling or diction, it is 2am and I am drunk)
:alien:
Have a nice day.

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by ilw@5 October 2003 - 03:42
Billy your theory of pre-universe time is, i think a fairly unique one, perhaps you should write a paper on it. Personally i think the pre universe period is basically not within our ability to understand, it simply doesn&#39;t follow physics or maths, as JPaul pointed out there is no causality without time.
My "theory" of pre-universe time is not mine, and is a constant source of discussion. You think no-one has pondered on the question "what caused the big bang"? Any "cause" would have to have been before "universal" time, but not necessarily before time itself. What if our "big bang" was caused by a previous universe&#39;s "big crunch", would their "time" not have happened?

As I&#39;ve also stated, there are theories that dispute the need for a big bang, where does time start then?

Anyone have any thoughts on why there isn&#39;t the same amount of matter and anti-matter in the universe? Or what the universe would be like if anti-matter had taken hold?

PS. Sorry, forgot to follow the thread and mention christianity&#33; *Chistianity*


:)

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by fallenknight308@5 October 2003 - 19:54
....., it is 2am and I am drunk)

Actally it&#39;s 3am where you are.


:)

[huuramis]

http://www.uploadit.org/files/051003-etphonehome.JPG

[fallenknight308]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean+5 October 2003 - 03:06--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Billy_Dean @ 5 October 2003 - 03:06)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-fallenknight308@5 October 2003 - 19:54
....., it is 2am and I am drunk)

Actally it&#39;s 3am where you are.


:) [/b][/quote]
Your right&#33; I am REALLY drunk
Goodnight :ph34r:

[Strutzy3]

i'm sorry you feel that way -

p.s. next time when talking in a forum and recieving other perspectives that may not be the same as your arrogant way may seem be mature enough to listen politely.

[MagicNakor]

http://www.applefritter.com/images/zombie_1-9316_640x480.jpg

:shuriken:

[limesqueezer]

Somehow world was flat and planets were turning around the world not the sun, than god knows all. If heaven was in clouds and than became invisible or moved on the moon when they invented aeroplane than well belive in the heaven. When they first filght to the moon, the pope and its golden church members feared, it disappeared from there also and moved in universe, later in another dimension, well good for heaven, now its invisible along with all the miracles and angels. If jesus is once black, than white, than etc...really fine. I mean angles and ghosts are invisible and than somehow do appear all the time. Let us just pay tribute to the most rich institution on earth, since thats what jesus was teaching or ? No, no, no, you are not allow to ask questions, thats a sin :D, read the bible, they know all the answers. hahaha

[Agrajag]

Somehow world was flat and planets were turning around the world not the sun, than god knows all. If heaven was in clouds and than became invisible or moved on the moon when they invented aeroplane than well belive in the heaven. When they first filght to the moon, the pope and its golden church members feared, it disappeared from there also and moved in universe, later in another dimension, well good for heaven, now its invisible along with all the miracles and angels. If jesus is once black, than white, than etc...really fine. I mean angles and ghosts are invisible and than somehow do appear all the time. Let us just pay tribute to the most rich institution on earth, since thats what jesus was teaching or ? No, no, no, you are not allow to ask questions, thats a sin :D, read the bible, they know all the answers. hahaha

What the fuck are you talking about,

"When they first filght to the moon, the pope and its golden church members feared, it disappeared from there also and moved in universe, later in another dimension"

[limesqueezer]

Im saying that some people though that heaven is on moon, of course before they landed on moon. And im saying that christianity is talking all the time about peace and teaching to help others when they are the reason that some people have less money, cause they sure have too much, when they can build such structures called church, sometimes in places where they don't even have enough food or a school. Whatever im saying if im drunk or on drugs it sure has more logic than daily preaching in church, thats what the fuck im talking.

[bigboab]

Im saying that some people though that heaven is on moon, of course before they landed on moon. And im saying that christianity is talking all the time about peace and teaching to help others when they are the reason that some people have less money, cause they sure have too much, when they can build such structures called church, sometimes in places where they don't even have enough food or a school. Whatever im saying if im drunk or on drugs it sure has more logic than daily preaching in church, thats what the fuck im talking.

Why are you attacking Christianity? Pre Christian Religions and a lot of modern non-Christian religions had/have their iconic temples etc.

Edit: I dont believe I understood that.

[limesqueezer]

Im not attacking, im not making neverending religious wars. Im just talking fairytale free, facts exsist and fact is also that usa helpped only the tsunami victims that accepted a church to be build from collected money. Christianity is nothing more than making buisness on fools, like any other religion. Just by the fact that there are many religions is a proof that there is no god. Everybody has its own fun but when fun goes too far i also have a word to say and i've seen many religions come and go here. In my country christians rule since 1 year and the only thing they did is to make the whole country poor, make the big cities rich and sell everything to other countries. And who is not a christian and doesn't follow as a little girl doesn't get a job or is fired. They are replacing every not christian people on positions with a christian ones that come from i don't know where. On tv i see nothing more last year than some da vinci code and some ghost stories from usa. Almost every fountain or water spring is now a holly one that can heal blind people. American nato and american christianity got us nothing more than parasites.

[Agrajag]

So you want us to fuck off out of your country and leave you to it, is that what you're saying

[j2k4]

So you want us to fuck off out of your country and leave you to it, is that what you're saying

I say, if the citrus-abuser wants to run with the scissors, let him be.

He'll trip sooner or later.

[Agrajag]

So you want us to fuck off out of your country and leave you to it, is that what you're saying

I say, if the citrus-abuser wants to run with the scissors, let him be.

He'll trip sooner or later.

Hoi, oranges are not the only fruit.

That's a seriously obscure reference btw and refers to lesboid activities. I have no idea why I posted it, but it makes more sense than .... oh never mind

[j2k4]

I say, if the citrus-abuser wants to run with the scissors, let him be.

He'll trip sooner or later.

Hoi, oranges are not the only fruit.

That's a seriously obscure reference btw and refers to lesboid activities. I have no idea why I posted it, but it makes more sense than .... oh never mind

Right, in any case.

It does seem somewhat less than fair to use such a reference.

How much do you care? :P

[Agrajag]

Hoi, oranges are not the only fruit.

That's a seriously obscure reference btw and refers to lesboid activities. I have no idea why I posted it, but it makes more sense than .... oh never mind

Right, in any case.

It does seem somewhat less than fair to use such a reference.

How much do you care? :P

More than you can possibly imagine.

[j2k4]

Right, in any case.

It does seem somewhat less than fair to use such a reference.

How much do you care? :P

More than you can possibly imagine.

I meant relative to the fruit-fondling person.

[Agrajag]

More than you can possibly imagine.

I meant relative to the fruit-fondling person.

Oh, then not one jot.

[chalice]

Lesbian activities are not the only fruit. Controversial literature needs updated.



Marmalade Atkins- She dead, Sah.

[j2k4]

Lesbian activities are not the only fruit. Controversial literature needs updated.



Marmalade Atkins- She dead, Sah.


Yes, we could all use an update, fancy-cup.

What's the good word? :)

[chalice]

Lesbian activities are not the only fruit. Controversial literature needs updated.



Marmalade Atkins- She dead, Sah.


Yes, we could all use an update, fancy-cup.

What's the good word? :)

Good to see the eagle is still eagle-eyed.

The good word is a bit of a joke according to our ex-correspondent.

Whatever happened to Billy Dean?

I have a feeling he still walks amongst us.

I trust you are well, my friend?

[j2k4]

Yes, we could all use an update, fancy-cup.

What's the good word? :)

Good to see the eagle is still eagle-eyed.

The good word is a bit of a joke according to our ex-correspondent.

Whatever happened to Billy Dean?

I have a feeling he still walks amongst us.

I trust you are well, my friend?

I am fine.

We've been tipped to Billy many times with no confirmation.

He has sold his forum and is free to pester at will, I imagine.

Where have you been?

[chalice]

Good to see the eagle is still eagle-eyed.

The good word is a bit of a joke according to our ex-correspondent.

Whatever happened to Billy Dean?

I have a feeling he still walks amongst us.

I trust you are well, my friend?

I am fine.

We've been tipped to Billy many times with no confirmation.

He has sold his forum and is free to pester at will, I imagine.

Where have you been?


I've been working. Too beleaguered to express myself except in dreams. (That sounded rather suspect.)

I notice no peppering of JPaul's pyrotechnics. Has he died?

That's one wake I'd be sorry to miss. (And I mean that in the nicest possible way, JP.)

[j2k4]

I am fine.

We've been tipped to Billy many times with no confirmation.

He has sold his forum and is free to pester at will, I imagine.

Where have you been?


I've been working. Too beleaguered to express myself except in dreams. (That sounded rather suspect.)

I notice no peppering of JPaul's pyrotechnics. Has he died?

That's one wake I'd be sorry to miss. (And I mean that in the nicest possible way, JP.)


He is with us yet.

Spread a bit thinner through schizoid proliferation of forum identities, but more to enjoy for all that.

Hope you can stay...

[Snee]

...In my country christians rule since 1 year and the only thing they did is to make the whole country poor, make the big cities rich and sell everything to other countries.
And where were you from again...

The other day you made a post that seemed to indicate you were swedish, but, well, this quote from yours makes no sense whatsoever if you are.

[limesqueezer]

...In my country christians rule since 1 year and the only thing they did is to make the whole country poor, make the big cities rich and sell everything to other countries.
And where were you from again...

The other day you made a post that seemed to indicate you were swedish, but, well, this quote from yours makes no sense whatsoever if you are.

Get real kid, there ain't no santa or little dwarfs, only money.

[Snee]

And where were you from again...

The other day you made a post that seemed to indicate you were swedish, but, well, this quote from yours makes no sense whatsoever if you are.

Get real kid, there ain't no santa or little dwarfs, only money.

So, if I'm reading this right, you are claiming that one of the most secularized countries in the world has some sort of "christian" government.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

[bigboab]

And where were you from again...

The other day you made a post that seemed to indicate you were swedish, but, well, this quote from yours makes no sense whatsoever if you are.

Get real kid, there ain't no santa or little dwarfs, only money.

Only 12 weeks to go and you go and spoil it.:cry:
You are a Heathen*


* Just to keep on thread.:)

[limesqueezer]

I don't belive that you can fill clouds with billions of souls and than live there in perfect harmony.
No i don't belive in miracles, i try to understand things, if it is unxplainable or not possible to catch on camera it is probably just another human that seeks attention and is making money on stupidity.
I belived in Santa when i was 3 years old and i didn't seek for explanation and prooves
Im not from Sweden, where did you get this from ? lol. You could write it in Bible as confirmed truth.
Its written in god we trust and at same time the usa is claiming that it ain't influenced by christians when somebody is convicted.
When i want to learn something about usa i just turn on tv and watch some of your reality shows like Jerry Springer, Ricki Lake or Cheaters and im happy that i ain't as dumb.
If the chosen people can see into the future, why don't they look up the lotto numbers or their day of accident and change it ? It is really stupid when you can see into the future and you die sudden death by car. I saw on tv once that a women that had special powers needed 30 years to solve the murder, she probably had very bad visions.
Why don't they sell bottles of holy water, healing water or miracle water ?
Wouldn't be good if we could all be healed by a miracle man such as john of god, he claims to give sight to blind, he heals it all. I just wonder why superman that seeked out every possble healing method didn't make it or any other president or rich human that needed help, did john's power failed ?
Maybe the miracle man has periods and can't heal on camera or when somebody famous needs him.

[JPaul]

That is perhaps the worst understanding of Christianity that I have ever read, it is to your credit.

[limesqueezer]

Understanding has nothing to do with christianity and explaining has everything to do with The Drawing Room and this topic. How can you understand something you are not allowed to explain ?

[JPaul]

Understanding has nothing to do with christianity and explaining has everything to do with The Drawing Room and this topic. How can you understand something you are not allowed to explain ?

You explained what you thought about Christianity, I commented that your understanding was clearly a poor one, based on your explanation of Christianity.

I fully support your right to talk pish. Please have the decency to allow me my right to point out that it is just that.

[j2k4]

Understanding has nothing to do with christianity and explaining has everything to do with The Drawing Room and this topic. How can you understand something you are not allowed to explain ?

You explained what you thought about Christianity, I commented that your understanding was clearly a poor one, based on your explanation of Christianity.

I fully support your right to talk pish. Please have the decency to allow me my right to point out that it is just that.

In the interest of fairness, tolerance, etc., etc., ad nauseum, I propose that "you understand something you are not allowed to explain" as a default stance when dealing with this individual.

It's got to be less painful, don't you think? :pinch:

[JPaul]

If I can amend that to

"you fundamentally fail to understand something then you can post bigoted pish about it but that's only OK if you are a non-Christian decrying Christians and Christianity, obviously it would be wrong for a Christian to express distaste for the violent nature of other people's faiths"

I can agree with you.

[j2k4]

If I can amend that to

"you fundamentally fail to understand something then you can post bigoted pish about it but that's only OK if you are a non-Christian decrying Christians and Christianity, obviously it would be wrong for a Christian to express distaste for the violent nature of other people's faiths"

I can agree with you.

Oh, that'd be fine, certainly.

Just so long as you don't expect things to improve...:whistling

[limesqueezer]

You know when my friend died he told me that he will contact me as ghost or send me a signal, we talk about this many times and also 2 days before he died. That is 4 years ago. Maybe he is stuck between the worlds, i should seek the help of charmed sisters just in case, maybe they know. I will tell this forum first after he sends me a postcard or makes a move. Maybe i should watch out for broken light bulbs, when i was watching the discovery channel the last time, they teached me that if a light bulb explodes i have a ghost in my house. :P

[MagicNakor]

That is perhaps the worst understanding of Christianity that I have ever read, it is to your credit.

That you could fathom that post is to yours.

:shuriken:

[Snee]

...
Im not from Sweden, where did you get this from ? lol. ...
Some sort of wordbrick (http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/p-who-would-win-american-vs-great-britan-post1476411/postcount10) fell on my head and messed up my readin' skills for a bit.

[hobbes]

...
Im not from Sweden, where did you get this from ? lol. ...
Some sort of wordbrick (http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/p-who-would-win-american-vs-great-britan-post1476411/postcount10) fell on my head and messed up my readin' skills for a bit.

Obviously, "word brick" is my unique creation and it's use requires a $19.95 usage fee.

I coined it after reading Brainiac's posts.

[JPaul]

Some sort of wordbrick (http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/p-who-would-win-american-vs-great-britan-post1476411/postcount10) fell on my head and messed up my readin' skills for a bit.

Obviously, "word brick" is my unique creation and it's use requires a $19.95 usage fee.

I coined it after reading Brainiac's posts.

"Coined it", did you see what she did there.

[j2k4]

Some sort of wordbrick (http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/p-who-would-win-american-vs-great-britan-post1476411/postcount10) fell on my head and messed up my readin' skills for a bit.

Obviously, "word brick" is my unique creation and it's use requires a $19.95 usage fee.

I coined it after reading Brainiac's posts.

Are you sure it was Brainiac.

[Snee]

Some sort of wordbrick (http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/p-who-would-win-american-vs-great-britan-post1476411/postcount10) fell on my head and messed up my readin' skills for a bit.

Obviously, "word brick" is my unique creation and it's use requires a $19.95 usage fee.

I coined it after reading Brainiac's posts.
:dabs:

"Word_brick" is it? Well then, I dunno' what "it is use" means, so no money for you, mister.


:01:

[JPaul]

Obviously, "word brick" is my unique creation and it's use requires a $19.95 usage fee.

I coined it after reading Brainiac's posts.
:dabs:

"Word_brick" is it? Well then, I dunno' what "it is use" means, so no money for you, miser.


:01:

Fixed.

This is my knew absolute fave game. Did anybody guess that.