How "legal" is it to create a tracker?

[Rart]

I've seen all these posts about TPB, swedish trackers being shut down, and the pirate bay buyers trying to buy out other large trackers to create a collection of legal trackers, and even putting TPB on nasdaq.

Then theres the paranoia, extreme anonymity of some trackers, especially higher levels ones, and posts describing how "off shore banking accounts" and "offshore server hosts" are quite common when creating trackers. Then there's the fact that all sites have these long disclaimers, terms of use, and all this other crap.

But if trackers are legal, since you must have the legal right to the products you are downloading and distributing, whats with the paranoia? Why be afraid of the law when it should be perfectly legal?

And with that, how are places like TPB being shut down? Did they conduct other illegal activity such as distributing copyrighted and illegal material themselves? Did they use illegal means to acquire files? How are law enforcement getting the right to crack down and arrest all sorts of people? (Filesoup?)...

If its legal to create a site where theres a disclaimer saying you must have the rights in order to distribute/dl, whats so illegal about it?

/discuss

[KushBlow]

It is illegal to assist in copyright infringement. The warez is not distributed by the tracker itself but it is hosted by it.

Think of it this way - if you know Warez-BB, it is just a forum for posting links to other servers such as RS that host the warez. WBB itself does not have an upload option, therefore it does not host the illegal files...unlike trackers where their servers DO host it (or are somehow linked to it). On top of that the WBB server is located in Hong Kong where file-sharing is legal.

There are multiple charges such as copyright infringment and conspiracy to defraud but you really have to know the multiple legal acts and laws which I have no interest in reading.

Edit1: I may have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about.
Edit2: The location of the server hosting the illegal files may depend on the legality of it.

[Rart]

But isn't a tracker not technically hosting any files because they only host the torrent file that points to a file?

[KushBlow]

But isn't a tracker not technically hosting any files because they only host the torrent file that points to a file?

It might be because of that torrent file that the anti-pirate groups find the servers that the .torrent file is hosted one which then traces back to the tracker which hosted it.

[megabyteme]

You both make good points. Right now, corporations are attempting to "protect" their interests, but have never had to do so on a scale of this magnitude. They are still thinking that they should have complete control of their products.

Some of us believe that information should be "free" and available to everyone. Many bands would (and do) give away their music. Some authors have done the same. To these people, their art is not about money- it is about producing something that they enjoy and enjoy sharing with others. The same can be said about anyone who writes open source programs.

There is a war of philosophies here. Corporations are entirely focused on money. People who share files find that the only value of something is to give it to someone else who can benefit from having it. Money is of very little concern. Sites need support to pay their expenses, but generally they do it for other reasons.

There are sites that do profit from "piracy". Whether through donations, ads, or people paying to leech some (but I would argue few)make money. I have heard that TPB made a lot from ads and possibly some from donations to buy "Sealand". Which they never did, but there were supposedly 10's of thousands donated for the cause. (I would be interested in more details on that one).

Overall, I believe that sites making money from file sharing will eventually cause some backlash against our community. Corporations will sniff out the money like bloodhounds!

I have also heard of comparisons between Google and trackers. The arguments tend to say that Google is an indexing and search system not too dissimilar from the trackers. Google has a lot of money to defend itself. Small trackers do not. Especially when "legal tricks" occur that give trackers no chance of winning. Even TPB failed to get a fair trial.

Another argument in favor of file-sharing is that copyright laws were originally designed for businesses to protect themselves from other businesses stealing their intellectual property. They were never meant to be used against consumers. This makes sense because few of us knew anything about copyright laws prior to the last decade- we did not need to. Right now, the RIAA and the MPAA are using their teams of lawyers to bully citizens out of large sums of money. Most individuals cannot even afford decent attorneys, yet alone good ones. This has essentially turned into a racketeering scheme. Pay up, or we will take everything you own. Just look at the $700k "judgment" against the college kid.

There is also the issue of "fair use" which has typically allowed people to make limited numbers of copies, backups, etc. I believe that there will eventually be more of a compromise in this area since everything seems to be softening (at least there are fewer lawsuits being pursued) against individuals- mainly it is just bad publicity.

Right now, legal team juggernauts are trying desperately to set precedents in courts around the world. Every time a major judgment occurs, it is a BIG win for anti-piracy groups.

I fall under the category of people who care so little about the products I grab, that if I cannot get it for free, I do not need it. The record and movie industries have put out so many bad products that I am really in no rush to give them my money. That combined with the fact that they are running opposite to my beliefs about "free" information that I cannot justify supporting them.

Ultimately, the products have become available on an infinite scale. Basic economics shows that when there is an infinite supply, price (value from consumers) drops to nothing. That is becoming very true.


edit-I would like to give credit to the regular posters (SonsofLiberty, Darth Sushi, iLOVENZB, Nucleus, {I}{K}{E}, and everyone else) who keeps the News section up-to-date and filled with important information! It really is a valuable resource for the community.

[DanielleD87]

It basically is a new war on drugs. At one point in time drugs where not illegal either.
All it takes is a couple of good lobbyists and payed off judges and what was legal has become illegal.

Technically, the DMCA (which goes against original copyright law and therefor should not be legal) declares a lot of once was legal illegal. As for hosting a tracker the only real law I can find that is broken is, 'Conspiracy to defraud' Which is what caught affil groups get charged with.

It is a messy subject best avoided imho unless you're a lawyer.

[megabyteme]

It is a messy subject best avoided imho unless you're a lawyer.

Exactly right, DanielleD87! Everyday "normal" people should never have to think about such a complicated legal term. Yet alone, be threatened (and in some cases bullied and robbed) by large corporations.

In most of these "trials" there was never any real damages to the companies. No one ever sold a single copy of the down-loaded media and in a lot of instances (I image because of my own uses) the companies would never have been able to sell the product to the defendant. They were simply listening to, or viewing something because it was free. That's called fair use.

[NA_Magus]

Answering the original question; the tracker you create is only as legal as the content you "link" to or "host".

I've never heard of an open-source software or anything public-domain tracker been taken down. If you have copyrighted content, there are obviously special interest groups who will look for a quick buck at your expense regardless of the laws and circumstances involved.

[curtanwoo]

If its legal to create a site where theres a disclaimer saying you must have the rights in order to distribute/dl, whats so illegal about it?

It all depends on the country in which you establish the tracker. Obviously, The Pirate Bay has lost the case in the first court. Now there are two more and this case will probably go all the way to the Swedish Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_Sweden)

This question is rather intricate and hard to answer in any detail.

The thing about disclaimers, btw, is that they're much more useful in countries that employ something called "common law" -- which means UK and USA. In countries heavily influenced by German law, disclaimers are not that important. etc.

If I were to start a tracker, I would host it on fiber in Khazakstan. Or something.

[EyeCandy]

The thing about disclaimers, btw, is that they're much more useful in countries that employ something called "common law" -- which means UK and USA. In countries heavily influenced by German law, disclaimers are not that important. etc.

If I were to start a tracker, I would host it on fiber in Khazakstan. Or something.

In terms of civil litigation, including many criminal, a disclaimer, on the main page is not going to protect you...

[sez]

Last i checked all these cases against file sharers have been civil suites,for some reason they are afraid to press criminal charges,so i guess its almost legal unless of course you are making money out of it.

[curtanwoo]

In terms of civil litigation, including many criminal, a disclaimer, on the main page is not going to protect you...

That's true. I was only refering to the relative usefulness of a disclaimer in law systems with different law traditions. But yeah, it probably won't help you much if they decide to go after you.

[Rart]

But what makes any tracker site different from warez-bb =/ They're all hosting the same things, "links" to downloadable content, aren't they? If you can charge a tracker for "conspiracy to defraud" why can't you charge WBB for the same?

[Swepsycho]

not illgegal to create...

[KushBlow]

But what makes any tracker site different from warez-bb =/ They're all hosting the same things, "links" to downloadable content, aren't they? If you can charge a tracker for "conspiracy to defraud" why can't you charge WBB for the same?

it's located in Hong Kong. Plus, it doesn't host anything. It has 3rd party hosts. Even Twitter links to warez sometimes (people post movies uploaded to RS), but you can't prosecute them for it.

[curtanwoo]

But what makes any tracker site different from warez-bb =/ They're all hosting the same things, "links" to downloadable content, aren't they? If you can charge a tracker for "conspiracy to defraud" why can't you charge WBB for the same?

it's located in Hong Kong. Plus, it doesn't host anything. It has 3rd party hosts. Even Twitter links to warez sometimes (people post movies uploaded to RS), but you can't prosecute them for it.

I'll discuss Swedish law in this post. Why is this interesting? Because many trackers you know and use are or have been located in Sweden. TTi is one, The Pirate Bay is another.

The kind of linkage you are talking about is illegal in Sweden according to a ruling by the Swedish Supreme Court in 1999. You can't have a site where you link directly to off-site material which you don't own copyright to. The case is called "mp3-målet" in Swedish.

When I studied law (I have been for the last year) we got to read the entire court decision regarding The Pirate Bay. One of the questions was whether or not the people who run the tracker could be "helping" people doing copyright infringement.

Sorry about my bad english when it comes to law terminology. I'm quitting law school to study Computer Science this fall so I'm not really motivated to brush it up more than necessary... :whistling

[danio]

But isn't a tracker not technically hosting any files because they only host the torrent file that points to a file?

The thing is, the law does not care about the technology used, but rather the effect it has. Atleast that is the case in Sweden. It is clear that TPB was started and run with the sole purpose to assist copyright infringement.. A vast majority (99%?) of the torrent files hosted on TPB connects to illegal works, and they have made fun of the copyright holders that has asked them to remove a specific torrent. All in all, it is pretty clear that they, as much as any other tracker, exists for this reason only. To spread illegal copies of works... If you try to tell me something else, i think you're lying to yourself :)

Edit: curtanwoo knows more about swedish law than i do.. so feel free to add or correct me if i'm wrong in some way.

[megabyteme]

The American entertainment industries have a lot of influence over our (US) legal system. We have witnessed that as corporations have abused both individuals and laws.

The American government has a lot of influence in other countries that want to trade with the US. What we have seen over the past few years is the slow decay of sovereignty of these smaller countries. Sure, local governments have a vested interest in protecting copyright laws in their own countries, but we are seeing these countries change their laws to serve the US's interests. It is the large American corporations that are filing these suits and pursuing sites such as TPB.

I think it is a very sad state of affairs when everyone (worldwide) is being bullied into submission to to protect a couple of American industries which really aren't worth shit in the grand scheme of things. Really...we are talking about entertainment industries. Most of the "products" they produce are lousy anyway. They should be thankful anyone even bothers to watch/listen to their garbage. Yet alone, bow down to them.

I am ranting a lot these past couple of days. I really don't know why... :unsure:

[Nemrod]

Some of us believe that information should be "free" and available to everyone.

:wank:


So, I imagine you´ve made a lot of complains about Rupert Murdoch´s decision for charging a fee if you want to access the content in his many media companies.



I grab True Blood every Sunday. It was available on 3 of my trackers at the same time! About an hour later, the HD version was available.

I don´t think that True Blood is precisely something we can call "information", "Knowledge" or any of those resounding words we use for not telling the truth: we are pirating... getting something for free when it was made for profit.

[megabyteme]

So, I imagine you´ve made a lot of complains about Rupert Murdoch´s decision for charging a fee if you want to access the content in his many media companies.

No. I don't care what any individual tries to do with "his" media. If it is of value, (has Murdoch EVER produced anything of value) someone will make it available.

"Free" is more than just without cost. It also includes the ability to transfer, modify, resize, essentially anything the end user wants to do- with the exception of selling it commercially for a profit.

The concept of "free" is here to stay. Corporations are finally starting to come around and offer media free of charge to people who want to watch it on their computers. The BBC did so a few years back, newspapers offer daily news free of charge, there are many different models that companies have adopted as a result of their media being given away via file-sharing. I walked past a shelf of new DVDs the other day that were priced at $3-$5. Now tell me that file-sharing has not effected media for the better...

And really, what is your alternative to "free" information? Pay for everything that you want to see. Allow entertainment industries to dictate how and when you can view their programming? Continue to get suckered every time you go see a Big-Budget flop?


I grab True Blood every Sunday. It was available on 3 of my trackers at the same time! About an hour later, the HD version was available.


I don´t think that True Blood is precisely something we can call "information", "Knowledge" or any of those resounding words we use for not telling the truth: we are pirating... getting something for free when it was made for profit.

I used the words "information" and "media" interchangeably. The truth is- the vast majority of anything viewed through a television was designed for entertainment. There is no educational value present. It is designed to sell products. Look for the product placements next time you watch a show, movie, or listen to some songs. Look for the banners in the background when you watch a sports event. Sponsors, sponsors, sponsors. By viewing the programming, you have helped the show make money via those product placements. The corporations are working very hard to find ways to make money and have their shows seen. Companies benefit when their shows are watched.

"Free" media is controlled by the consumer. The internet is a technological advancement that, for the first time in history, gives the individual unlimited choices. I do not want to see those choices limited in any way. Media producers can find new ways to work advertisements into their programming. We will continue to share things we enjoy.

If you honestly believe what you are doing in this community is wrong- go away. Your self-loathing and guilt reek. :wank: <right back at 'ya...:dry:

[sear]

lol this is a funny thread.

Nemrod was just pointing out we shouldn't cloak what we do in self righteousness. We all want to get shit we'd have to pay for for free and that's about all there is to it. Sure you can argue about doing it for a 'cause' but at the end of the day the reason anyone uses torrents is purely selfish (not that there's anything wrong with that).

[megabyteme]

I am not trying to come across as self-righteous. I may be, but I am not trying.:) What I am trying to do is make an argument that we are not damaging anything by sharing. There has never been any evidence that we have hurt the movie industry. Blockbusters are setting new records every year. The music industry doesn't seem hurt. They whine A LOT, but the execs are desperately trying to hold on to the glory days when they had complete control of who got famous, how many albums/movies were released, who got played on the radio, if you could make copies or not, etc. We have had enough. We are tired of being told what we can have, when we can have it, where we view/listen to it, what devices we can use.

At least the software companies have not declared war on us. A recent slump in gaming systems and media was seen as a slowdown in the economy and a point where consumers had already purchased their consoles. I rarely champion Microsoft, but they are aware that their OS gets pirated IMMEDIATELY, yet they are not declaring war on us. I gotta give them credit for that!

Television. As I mentioned, there is a massive amount of product placement. Nothing gets into a show without paying for the privilege to be there. Just look at the background, or what the actors are wearing, their clothes, watches, beverages, even listen to the background music. We are being marketed to. Constantly. Movies are very much the same. They have already seen large returns well before the first ticket is purchased.

I am not a crusader, but I have to look at the possible outcomes. Give corporations back the control they once had, or let the consumer decide what they will accept as their media. "Free" is here to stay. Companies can call us "Pirates" (which is such an inaccurate misnomer, but it sounds kinda cool to be associated with it);) The only thing we are doing is sharing media amongst like-minded, or interested consumers. Once the industries figure out how to release control and still make money, they won't have a problem with us. Right now, they see every copy of every file as lost revenue. It is not. Many people are willing to view a show or listen to a song as long as it is free. Any cost above that and we have no interest.

Is this self-righteousness or a view of change brought on by a revolution in technology that takes control from the corporations and gives it to people? We are simply battling for that control.

[Nemrod]

I am not trying to come across as self-righteous. I may be, but I am not trying.:) What I am trying to do is make an argument that we are not damaging anything by sharing. There has never been any evidence that we have hurt the movie industry. Blockbusters are setting new records every year. The music industry doesn't seem hurt. They whine A LOT, but the execs are desperately trying to hold on to the glory days when they had complete control of who got famous, how many albums/movies were released, who got played on the radio, if you could make copies or not, etc. We have had enough. We are tired of being told what we can have, when we can have it, where we view/listen to it, what devices we can use.

At least the software companies have not declared war on us. A recent slump in gaming systems and media was seen as a slowdown in the economy and a point where consumers had already purchased their consoles. I rarely champion Microsoft, but they are aware that their OS gets pirated IMMEDIATELY, yet they are not declaring war on us. I gotta give them credit for that!

Television. As I mentioned, there is a massive amount of product placement. Nothing gets into a show without paying for the privilege to be there. Just look at the background, or what the actors are wearing, their clothes, watches, beverages, even listen to the background music. We are being marketed to. Constantly. Movies are very much the same. They have already seen large returns well before the first ticket is purchased.

I am not a crusader, but I have to look at the possible outcomes. Give corporations back the control they once had, or let the consumer decide what they will accept as their media. "Free" is here to stay. Companies can call us "Pirates" (which is such an inaccurate misnomer, but it sounds kinda cool to be associated with it);) The only thing we are doing is sharing media amongst like-minded, or interested consumers. Once the industries figure out how to release control and still make money, they won't have a problem with us. Right now, they see every copy of every file as lost revenue. It is not. Many people are willing to view a show or listen to a song as long as it is free. Any cost above that and we have no interest.

Is this self-righteousness or a view of change brought on by a revolution in technology that takes control from the corporations and gives it to people? We are simply battling for that control.


There´s life outside USA and 1st World Counties.

Let me tell you something: 10 years ago in my country there were at least 10 recording companies, besides the great studios representatives... SONY, Universal, etc.... you could find video & discs stores in any street. Today that type of commerce is rarer than an ice-cream parlor in the North Pole. Our artists moved to other countries and record their music there and come here to visit their relatives, if they have some left.
The same applies to editorials or publishing houses.
Blockbuster is broke, there are not video stores... well, there are, but what you get are DVDR downloaded from the net.
And I could tell you more things.

Now mate, don´t say that piracy has not hurt entertainment industry.

Other thing is if you believe that´s well deserved, that they have insane profits and that prices are a scam, or whatever you want. I could agree with you but that it´s another subject and another debate.

By the way, I am not defending big companies, I am pirating since I was 17, and proud of it. I began with a 56 kbps modem connection, back in 1996, and I´ll die pirating in any way the future has for us.
I really love this shit, I enjoy every single thing that piracy implies, and I can give you 10 or more reasons why I do this, but I´ll never tell you that I am a freedom fighter or that I do it in the name of higher values.

[That1Guy]

Im gonna have to agree, I torrent for stuff so I dont have to buy it. Would I pay to see/play/listen toeverything I download..... HELL NO. But if I didnt have access to "sharing" then I would fork out a few more dollars here or there.

That being said I wouldnt say I torrent just for stuff, I do enjoy sharing on a few select trackers.

/me stalks sear at fst now!!!!

[Nemrod]

/That1Guy stalks sear at fst now!!!!

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/goldiemcg/STALKING.png

[megabyteme]

OK, Nemrod. I think we got off to a bad start. I did not like the :wank: and you were pretty brief. I think we share a lot of the same joys, if not the same interests.

I was not aware of the changes in your entertainment industries. Actually, I am not really sure where you live. Is your flag accurate? It is hard to tell here...

I will argue that these are changesdue to technology. Every industry has had technological advances that have shaken things up. Even ended some professions while creating new ones. If the record companies have left your area, send them a sample of your music via email. Music studios gone? Grab a copy of ProTools, some training CD's and a pc. When you get something professional, send it out.

Industries are not the only ones facing difficulties with the changes. Artists are also. Some have gotten noticed by putting their music online. Good stuff seems to get noticed. Before, if a record exec did not like it, you were done. No other options. Now you can create your art and have a worldwide audience- if it is good.

I, too, enjoy all of the benefits of file-sharing and the internet. I don't like to hear that something that is so great and freeing is bad, wrong, evil, etc. I often get frustrated with classmates who are struggling to find materials for their papers that have bought into the industries' marketing campaign that file-sharing is bad.

The publishing house will not make a single dollar from me borrowing a book from a classmate, professor, library, or if I download it. Some materials are worth purchasing. I buy reference books. I buy all of my textbooks (and I pay dearly for them). If the industries got their way, we would pay multiple times for the same song, video- depending on when and where we want to watch it. Recently, I read an article that some asshat music company believed that they deserved money every time the phone played their song- they considered it a public performance!

The notion that file-sharing is wrong needs to stop. We certainly should not call each other thieves! This is the greatest technology that has ever existed. People without money can now learn how to do (almost) anything they want. Information is readily available. It pains me that so many people shun the thought of accessing what is already available.

There is a war between the industries and people who consume their media. We have seen how they acted when they had total control. This is the opposite. We are now in control. I just refuse to say, admit, or even think that "my" side are the "Bad Guys". We are not! But we are the ones in control.

[DanielleD87]

those butts have got to be plastic or something... :/
Anyways, sharing information is not a bad thing. If it wasn't for sharing information we would still be in the dark ages.

Trackers only share information. The users are a different story entirely.

Also, don't mix the gaming market up with this. Video games currently are approaching the whole Atari issue back from the 80's. There are two many games on the market and because of that each and every company aims to make their games cheaper to compete with the desaturation in the market.

[n00bz0r]

its as legal as growing marijuana in your backyard in washington.. :lol:

[megabyteme]

How are the laws in Shangra-La?

I gotta give you credit for a very concise and solid point, n00bz0r. (pretty darn funny, too):D

Had you mentioned another state, it would have been far better for your argument. Washington is one of very few states that has passed a very strong initiative in favor of medical marijuana. Details of the law can be found here:ACLU of Washington (http://www.aclu-wa.org/detail.cfm?id=182)


In 2008, the Washington State Department of Health defined a 60-day supply of medical marijuana as no more than 24 ounces of usable marijuana and no more than 15 plants, at any stage of growth. Patients who possess no more than this amount will be presumed to be in compliance with the law; patients who require more than this amount still maintain the right to present evidence of their personal, actual medical need in court. More information about the Department of Health's rule may be found at the following Web site:

Enough people got together and fought against laws that were not beneficial. It is probably a stretch to say the same thing could happen regarding "fair use" and copyright laws, but I believe that this kind of initiative can help make things more reasonable. Right now, the copyright laws and private citizens are being abused. This needs to stop.

[Rart]

I have finally got off my ass and read my own thread (thanks for transforming my thread into a book megabyteme).

As to megabyteme, I feel your ways are rather idealist as has been mentioned before. When you mentioned true blood, it reminded me of Hulu. That is how I believe this problem could be addressed. Yes, these companies are rather aggressive in their ways. But like any other company, they need to make money. Letting everything go free, while sounding great, is a great way to put companies in bankruptcy. However, it is their aggressive policies that end up alienating people like megabyte and turning them to piracy. Yes, in the grand scheme of things everything is being marketed to you. In chuck, everyone fricking used an Iphone. In supernatural, I think I recall and mac and a dell laptop constantly being used. To make it worse, if you aren't there exactly when the show is aired, or you don't have tivo, your stuck having to shell out over 30-40$ for per DVD, which is ridiculous. Why pay 30-40$ for entertainment when you can get it free?

Thats where Hulu comes in. It still has advertisements. It still contains the insidious marketing in every episode. I recall when I went through and watched lost on the ABC player, after 30 seconds it gave you the option to end the commercial, but it would keep on going if you didn't click the button. Often I mostly forgot and end up watching the entire commercial anyway. Since I am not incredibly bored out of my mind with the barrage of commercials, I end up watching the one or two commercials per break more carefully. In addition, on TV if I knew it was a commercial break I might leave for 5-10 minutes and come back, completely destroying the point of the commercial. Add in the fact that if I miss a episode I might completely destroy the storyline, so the only other option is forking over 30-40$ on a DVD to find the episodes. Why wouldn't I just illegally download it? Its so much simpler.

Hulu is convenient and easy to use, and the streaming aspect means rarely, if any wait times for loading. The commercials aren't nearly as obtrusive, and I can find episodes easily. If more industries starting using the model, and maybe movies/music could be implemented with similar models, I believe piracy could be greatly reduced. Instead of using bully tactics and powerful lawyers, just use what the customer wants, after all, the customer is always right.

As to another question, it has been mentioned that trackers hosted in other countries where its legal can't be touched by the law. But what if someone from the US(or maybe sweden or something), decided to start up another TPB by buying a server from Hong Kong? What then? The servers in Hong Kong, but the citizens in an area where establishing trackesr is risky and illegal business. What then?

[sez]

I think itunes and hollywood should be very thankful for women otherwise things would be very bad for them by now.

[beethoven]

I was just wondering: what does it cost to run a tracker?
Because you see a lot of new trackers pop up.

[Swift]

you only need time because the money will come if the quallity is high but today there are to many trackers I wonder how they rezist